[10-May-20 12:39 AM] Luthier#1578
ok if we're discussing the current meta then i think we need to suspect 2 things:

[10-May-20 12:39 AM] Luthier#1578
diglett and then heat rock or bulba (not so sure about bulba cuz some people find viability for it outside of sun, which i dont want to kill in the process of suspect)

[10-May-20 12:40 AM] Luthier#1578
if we were to do so, idk how this timeline would fit

[10-May-20 12:40 AM] Luthier#1578
i get that ideally its not fair to do so but

[10-May-20 12:41 AM] Luthier#1578
realistically will it work out? im not quit sure. ill leave that up to the thoughts of those w more experience than me cuz out of everyone in this chat i am the one with by far the least in tiering experience cuz ive been here the shortest amount of time

[10-May-20 09:25 AM] starmaster#8286
nah

[10-May-20 09:25 AM] starmaster#8286
anyway who says they have viability for bulba outside sun

[10-May-20 09:25 AM] starmaster#8286
is fucking lying

[10-May-20 09:25 AM] starmaster#8286
what would u EVER use bulba for that can't be handled by

[10-May-20 09:25 AM] starmaster#8286
oddish or budew

[10-May-20 09:26 AM] starmaster#8286
I suggested heat rock a while ago and I'd still be down for that

[10-May-20 09:27 AM] Ninja#8225
im down for heat rock too

[10-May-20 10:50 AM] Coconut#8762
heat rock is preferred

[10-May-20 10:55 AM] LilyAC#7887
freeing vulpix to ban bulba and cherry still makes the most sense to me

[10-May-20 11:05 AM] Coconut#8762
would rather nerf all three (heat rock) than ban any one mon

[10-May-20 11:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
Would vulpix get retested if heat rock was banned

[10-May-20 11:18 AM] Coconut#8762
potentially

[10-May-20 11:26 AM] levi#6206
There isn't a chance that banning heat rock would make autosun balanced

[10-May-20 11:27 AM] levi#6206
It would probably make manual sun balanced but I'd still lean banning the mon(s) I think

[10-May-20 11:28 AM] Coconut#8762
Well I think the most oppressive thing about sun is the guessing game of moves on a really fast mon

[10-May-20 11:28 AM] levi#6206
Banning heat rock negates manual sun the archetype as a whole and reduces it to maybe bulba as a stand-alone sweeper

[10-May-20 11:28 AM] Coconut#8762
Vulpix + Bulba is still powerful without heat rock

[10-May-20 11:28 AM] Serene Grace#5243
id ban bulbasaur

[10-May-20 11:28 AM] Coconut#8762
but certainly can't accomplish what it can now

[10-May-20 11:28 AM] levi#6206
Banning bulba just gets rid of standalone sun bulba which is mediocre and sunless bulba which is unviable

[10-May-20 11:29 AM] levi#6206
Vulpix + bulba is dumb bc vulpix can still set permasun w boots

[10-May-20 11:29 AM] levi#6206
It's not going to be balanced w or w.o heat rock

[10-May-20 11:29 AM] Coconut#8762
yeah ponyta + bulba + standard 4 is nuked

[10-May-20 11:29 AM] Coconut#8762
if we ban bulba

[10-May-20 11:29 AM] LilyAC#7887
arent we supposed to avoid weird bans like items

[10-May-20 11:29 AM] levi#6206
Let alone dual chloro

[10-May-20 11:30 AM] Coconut#8762
Complex bans

[10-May-20 11:30 AM] Coconut#8762
are what we're supposed to avoid

[10-May-20 11:30 AM] Coconut#8762
banning heat rock is the equivalent of banning gengarnite.

[10-May-20 11:30 AM] levi#6206
If we want to even consider freeing vulpix then banning bulba is 100% the play, banning heat rock won't help

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
Though I'm not sure if vulp ponys gonna be busted anyways

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
So idk if that's relevant

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] Coconut#8762
freeing vulpix shouldn't be the primary priority

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] Serene Grace#5243
banning heat rock is not the equivalent of banning gengarnite

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
Gengarite was seen as a mon ya

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] Coconut#8762
in terms that they're both items

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] Coconut#8762
well I mean

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
Though we have precedent banning heat rock so we're fine anyways I think

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] Coconut#8762
in this case is that much different

[10-May-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
Nah like

[10-May-20 11:32 AM] Coconut#8762
who's using cherubi

[10-May-20 11:32 AM] levi#6206
There was a pr discussion and it was decided that megas are separate forms ie mons

[10-May-20 11:33 AM] Serene Grace#5243
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prefer-banning-pok%C3%A9mon-instead-of-banning-abilities-moves-etc.3656550/
My views are basically what zarel posted here

{Embed}
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prefer-banning-pok%C3%A9mon-instead-of-banning-abilities-moves-etc.3656550/
Prefer banning Pokémon instead of banning abilities/moves/etc
I've pushed this before, but in light of the recent Shadow Tag ban, I want to try again.





I think it's better to ban Pokémon than to ban anything else.

I have a lot of reasons, so let me go through a few of the biggest ones.

1. This is literally what the tier system is f...
https://www.smogon.com/forums/media/twitter.png

[10-May-20 11:33 AM] levi#6206
We have other tiers banning heat rock and drought anyways tho

[10-May-20 11:34 AM] Coconut#8762
from Zarel:

[10-May-20 11:34 AM] Coconut#8762
The thing I'm going for is definitely, if an ability is available on a lot of Pokémon and broken for reasons not obviously "this Pokémon is too strong", I'm a fan of banning it.

Things I think are good bans:
- Baton Pass
- Shadow Tag
- Sand Veil
- Moody
- Evasion Clause

Things I think should have just banned the Pokémon:
- Drought, Drizzle
- Sand Rush

Basically, if it's serious enough to deserve the word "Clause" added after it, it's fine being a ban.

[10-May-20 11:35 AM] Coconut#8762
I think this post is more towards avoiding the banning of an ability

[10-May-20 11:35 AM] Coconut#8762
rather than a Pokemon or item

[10-May-20 11:35 AM] levi#6206
It's the same idea

[10-May-20 11:35 AM] levi#6206
Every simple non mon trait

[10-May-20 11:35 AM] LilyAC#7887
i agree w zarel's post and think it applies exactly the same to banning pokemon vs banning an item

[10-May-20 11:36 AM] Coconut#8762
This post suggests we should avoid banning Chloro at all costs

[10-May-20 11:36 AM] levi#6206
I don't agree, I think minimizing collateral should be the second biggest prio after maintaining simple bans

[10-May-20 11:36 AM] Coconut#8762
and uses that it fucks up other tiers as collateral

[10-May-20 11:36 AM] Coconut#8762
neither of which is what is currently being proposed

[10-May-20 11:36 AM] levi#6206
Which is what smogon has done for like have the cases

[10-May-20 11:36 AM] levi#6206
And followed zarels philosophy for the other half

[10-May-20 11:37 AM] levi#6206
Esp for lc where other tiers aren't a concern at all

[10-May-20 11:37 AM] levi#6206
Collateral is arguably more if we ban heat rock here tho imo

[10-May-20 11:38 AM] Coconut#8762
Then if we're following that post

[10-May-20 11:38 AM] Coconut#8762
We're debating if banning bulba nerfs sun to the point that we're comfortable with

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] LilyAC#7887
theres no doubt about that is there?

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] Coconut#8762
If Yes, ban Bulbasaur
If No, ban Heat Rock

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] Coconut#8762
Following Levi's train of logic

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] levi#6206
We don't have to follow that post bc a. the downsides don't apply to us, b. the other tiers don't rlly follow it either

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] levi#6206
Huh

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] Coconut#8762
all that post says is that

[10-May-20 11:39 AM] Coconut#8762
zarel doesn't want to ban abilities

[10-May-20 11:40 AM] levi#6206
Of course banning either bulba or heat rock nerfs bulba manual sun archetypes enough

[10-May-20 11:40 AM] levi#6206
I'm just talking abt what else gets impacted

[10-May-20 11:40 AM] Coconut#8762
is banning bulbasaur too much of a hit to sun?

[10-May-20 11:40 AM] levi#6206
Also zarels post applies to all non Pokémon stuff I'm p sure

[10-May-20 11:40 AM] LilyAC#7887
i mean the title of the thread itself already says more than that coco

[10-May-20 11:40 AM] levi#6206
So moves abilities items

[10-May-20 11:41 AM] Coconut#8762
See but the concern with that doesn't apply to us otherwise

[10-May-20 11:41 AM] Coconut#8762
because the main reason that we wouldn't ban heat rock

[10-May-20 11:41 AM] Coconut#8762
would be that LC UU can't use heat rock either then

[10-May-20 11:41 AM] Coconut#8762
Which is pointless

[10-May-20 11:42 AM] LilyAC#7887
thats just one of the reasons

[10-May-20 11:42 AM] levi#6206
The post applies to us technically in that it discourages item bans but its listed downsides don't rlly impact us

[10-May-20 11:42 AM] levi#6206
And it's not official policy, in fact other tiers don't follow it either often

[10-May-20 11:42 AM] Coconut#8762
The downsides don't affect us at all, and other tiers have went along and done what they've wanted

[10-May-20 11:42 AM] levi#6206
Ya

[10-May-20 11:42 AM] levi#6206
I still think banning bulbas better tho

[10-May-20 11:43 AM] Coconut#8762
So the only thing that I'm gaining from that post

[10-May-20 11:43 AM] levi#6206
Independently of policy concerns

[10-May-20 11:43 AM] Coconut#8762
is that Zarel would prefer if we didn't ban an ability because it can't be shown in the builder.

[10-May-20 11:44 AM] LilyAC#7887
not just abilities, also moves etc.

[10-May-20 11:44 AM] Coconut#8762
Which btw is stupid

[10-May-20 11:44 AM] LilyAC#7887
but yea i think thats a good reason

[10-May-20 11:44 AM] Coconut#8762
because it could absolutely be shown in the builder

[10-May-20 11:44 AM] Coconut#8762
it's just lots of hard work and not fun to maintain.

[10-May-20 11:44 AM] Coconut#8762
which is 100% understandable

[10-May-20 11:46 AM] Coconut#8762
for example, moves that aren't available on mons in VGC don't show up anymore

[10-May-20 11:46 AM] Coconut#8762
if we wanted to ban weather ball specifically, we could have it show up but have it filed as banned or have it not appear at all

[10-May-20 11:47 AM] LilyAC#7887
a heat rock ban isnt immediately apparent to a new user

[10-May-20 11:47 AM] Coconut#8762
if it has the word illegal next to it

[10-May-20 11:47 AM] Coconut#8762
when you search for it

[10-May-20 11:47 AM] Coconut#8762
how does it make it different from sneasel

[10-May-20 11:47 AM] LilyAC#7887
no like if they're playing lc and their opp sets sunny day for all they know it could last 8 turns

[10-May-20 11:48 AM] Coconut#8762
I mean

[10-May-20 11:48 AM] Coconut#8762
Sure?

[10-May-20 11:48 AM] Coconut#8762
But they could change that to be cart accurate too

[10-May-20 11:49 AM] Coconut#8762
Which would just display how many turns of sun have been up

[10-May-20 11:49 AM] LilyAC#7887
why would that help anyway

[10-May-20 11:50 AM] Coconut#8762
I see the issue that you're trying to point out now

[10-May-20 11:50 AM] Coconut#8762
Yeah, I agree that's not ideal

[10-May-20 11:50 AM] Coconut#8762
But there's workarounds to that

[10-May-20 11:52 AM] LilyAC#7887
theres no workarounds that are going to happen

[10-May-20 11:52 AM] Coconut#8762
Really bad train of logic with something like that

[10-May-20 11:52 AM] Coconut#8762
Sure there's no way that could logically happen

[10-May-20 11:54 AM] Coconut#8762
but not only could we stop it in the builder, and that there are feasible options that could be done, and resources that people could read, but we're basing tiering decisions off of a hypothetical newbie.

[10-May-20 11:56 AM] LilyAC#7887
its a good basis considering everyone that plays the game is a hypothetical newbie at some point

[10-May-20 11:57 AM] Coconut#8762
That's not what we cater tiering to though.

[10-May-20 11:57 AM] LilyAC#7887
theres no major advantage to banning heat rock that means we should make the ruleset more complicated and less obvious than it needs to be

[10-May-20 11:57 AM] Coconut#8762
If we're really bringing new people into this

[10-May-20 11:57 AM] Coconut#8762
Do you think they're more likely to want to use Heat Rock or Bulbasaur on their team

[10-May-20 11:59 AM] LilyAC#7887
im not saying we should try to please new players

[10-May-20 12:00 PM] LilyAC#7887
im not bothered whether they can use their favourite pocket monster or not

[10-May-20 12:00 PM] Coconut#8762
Right but if we're making it less confusing for them

[10-May-20 12:00 PM] LilyAC#7887
im saying we should make the rules as clear as possible to them

[10-May-20 12:01 PM] Coconut#8762
Then it's really no difference if their favorite mon is banned or an item with little tactical purpose outside medium/high level teams

[10-May-20 12:03 PM] Coconut#8762
It comes down to Why can't I use Bulbasaur/Sun is up, how much longer (which it could easily just say in the corner instead of saying 5 or 8 turns)

[10-May-20 12:04 PM] Coconut#8762
This also wasn't an issue with any other tier that banned an item before

[10-May-20 12:07 PM] levi#6206
Well the issue existed in other tiers too (and actually much more issues since they are usage tiers), it just got ignored

[10-May-20 12:08 PM] levi#6206
Maybe in favour of minimizing collateral or w.e I'm not sure

[10-May-20 12:09 PM] LilyAC#7887
i guess we just disagree, ultimately it comes down to preference

[10-May-20 12:09 PM] Coconut#8762
ya

[10-May-20 12:10 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm not deadset on Heat Rock

[10-May-20 12:10 PM] Coconut#8762
but I think it's the better decision moving forward

[10-May-20 12:19 PM] levi#6206
do you think banning bulbasaur has more collateral?

[10-May-20 12:23 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't know with 100% certainty that banning bulbasaur removes the issue because we already experienced something similar with cherubi

[10-May-20 12:23 PM] Coconut#8762
and it's unlikely that sun + oddish + cherry is broken, but not 100% out of the question in my mind

[10-May-20 12:33 PM] levi#6206
Ok so the opposite

[10-May-20 12:33 PM] levi#6206
I understand but I strongly disagree

[10-May-20 01:12 PM] Shrug#7659
does xing out heat rock reintroduce vulpix is the q

[10-May-20 01:15 PM] BurntZebra#8147
Wasn't eject pack vulpix sort of dumb too though

[10-May-20 01:21 PM] starmaster#8286
It was good but like

[10-May-20 01:21 PM] starmaster#8286
Idt it was broken cuz it wasn't great at actually setting sun

[10-May-20 01:21 PM] starmaster#8286
And in that way it's not rly much better than eject pack Salandit lol

[10-May-20 01:39 PM] levi#6206
it was massively better than any manual setter could ever be tho

[10-May-20 01:39 PM] levi#6206
like idt manual sun and autosun can ever rlly be comparable

[10-May-20 01:39 PM] levi#6206
not having to click a move is so huge

[10-May-20 01:39 PM] levi#6206
or did u just mean vulp as a standalone threat

[10-May-20 01:40 PM] starmaster#8286
well the salandit comparison was as a standalone

[10-May-20 01:40 PM] starmaster#8286
but idt eject pack vull is a broken setter either tho

[10-May-20 01:40 PM] starmaster#8286
cuz u dont have heat rock

[10-May-20 01:40 PM] starmaster#8286
lol

[10-May-20 01:42 PM] levi#6206
i think like

[10-May-20 01:43 PM] levi#6206
eject pack vulpix and cherry could still potentially be broken

[10-May-20 01:43 PM] levi#6206
maybe not in pony meta actually idk

[10-May-20 01:43 PM] levi#6206
but theres basically zero chance that manual cherry sun will ever be broken

[10-May-20 02:48 PM] Luthier#1578
nah eject pack is not broken

[10-May-20 02:49 PM] Luthier#1578
the only real tradeoff between the two is that pix is slightly stronger but doesnt get access to poison and second stab

[10-May-20 02:49 PM] Luthier#1578
theyre near the same in that sense

[10-May-20 02:49 PM] Luthier#1578
i dont think pix would be broken when using the eject pack set

[redacted]

[10-May-20 02:50 PM] Luthier#1578
if we ban heat rock

[10-May-20 02:51 PM] Luthier#1578
and if we're talking about the sole viability of pix + drought + eject

[10-May-20 02:51 PM] Luthier#1578
i still dont think its busted

[10-May-20 02:51 PM] Luthier#1578
even with the current trappers

[10-May-20 02:51 PM] Luthier#1578
i think the trappers are whats broken, not pix

[10-May-20 02:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well yeah trappers make the eject pack strat actually  usable

[10-May-20 02:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
considering pretty much all fire type switchins get trapped by diglett

[10-May-20 02:52 PM] BurntZebra#8147
mareanie, ponyta, onix, munchlax

[10-May-20 02:52 PM] Luthier#1578
well munchlax sucks now

[10-May-20 02:52 PM] BurntZebra#8147
munchlax has like 100% win rate in lcpl

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] Luthier#1578
still think it sucks

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] Luthier#1578
its a mu fish

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
maybe

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think the argument about knock off and munchlax is a bad argument though

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] Luthier#1578
again, i am more likely than not wrong btw

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
considering munchlax was basically an S rank mon when vullaby was around with 70% usage

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] Luthier#1578
cuz im not too in touch w ss rn

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
defensively, munchlax is a lot less useful now

[10-May-20 02:53 PM] Luthier#1578
ye

[10-May-20 02:54 PM] BurntZebra#8147
offensively, its about the same

[10-May-20 03:08 PM] levi#6206
eject pix w.o chloro sweepers is deffo balanced

[10-May-20 03:09 PM] levi#6206
but i think itd still be iffy w cherry and almost surely outright broken w bublba

[10-May-20 03:09 PM] levi#6206
i for sure agree that as a standalone mon eject pack pix isnt broken tho just so we're on the same page