dev room chat | chat with joim after he bans me from dev roo

[10:00] &xfix: I'm thinking about possibly replacing the third link here with http://www.smogon.com/ingame/battle/tiering-faq
[10:00] &xfix: The old link is pretty much for BW meta.
[10:03] &xfix: ... and the second link is apparently for DP meta, whoa.
[10:04] &xfix: (but apparently was updated after DP)
[10:11] Disaster Area: hmm in the am i forced to use smogon tiers bit
[10:11] Disaster Area: it should make it clear only nintendo/smogon tiers will ever have PS ladders on PS main
[10:12] Disaster Area: Q: Why is usage a good metric for tiering? Why not use something like winrate?
[10:12] Disaster Area: that's a loaded question
[10:12] Disaster Area: since it assumes usage is a good metric for tiering
[10:13] Disaster Area: i'd say it's okay and that there's better alternatives n_n
[10:14] &xfix: [11:11:39] Disaster Area: it should make it clear only nintendo/smogon tiers will ever have PS ladders on PS maine
[10:15] &xfix: Technically speaking, randbats and other metagames aren't Smogon tiers.
[10:15] Disaster Area: other metagames are held on smogon and I guess
[10:15] Disaster Area: you could easily just qualify and say
[10:15] Disaster Area: only nintendo/smogon non-random formats/tiers
[10:15] Disaster Area: depending on how you want to word it
[10:16] &xfix: Smogon tiers are OU, OU (no Mega), Ubers, UU, RU, NU, LC, Anything Goes, Doubles OU
[10:17] &xfix: Not sure about OU (no Mega) however.
[10:18] &xfix: And AG for that matter.
[10:19] Disaster Area: I'd call stuff like tier shift etc. smogon tiers
[10:19] Disaster Area: either way the point is if it's not made by smogon, nintendo, or is a random format
[10:19] Disaster Area: it can't be on PS
[10:19] Disaster Area: e.g. I tried to get a competitive alternative to smogon's 6v6 singles format on PS, but havnig spoken to marty and zarel it's clear that would not be possible
[10:20] Disaster Area: on that note, I'll be playing that on pokebattle instead once that's re-released later this year
[10:20] &xfix: Out of curiosity, how different is that alternative to Smogon's 6v6 singles.
[10:20] Disaster Area: the main meta looks closest to xy ubers out of any smogon meta
[10:21] Disaster Area: basically the banlist for our OU tier (called 1U) is
[10:21] Disaster Area: that of smogon's oras ubers, + primals / mega mence / geomancy / shadow tag
[10:21] Disaster Area: http://pastebin.com/fqRCkZMH log of me talking about it with zarel btw
[10:22] &xfix: I don't like an idea of banning Geomancy too much. It just feels strange to me to ban moves.
[10:22] &xfix: Especially signature ones.
[10:23] Disaster Area: fair enough, I mean it probably wouldn't be too bad if it were permitted; we'd have to re-test it once we have a more tangible playerbase
[10:23] Disaster Area: nb we also have a different method to produce lower tiers
[10:23] Disaster Area: (that I hinted at before of knowing of)
[10:24] Disaster Area: basically it involves the use of viability rankings
[10:24] Disaster Area: so for example, in 1U, eveything above mid B rank is 1U, everything below mid B rank is 2U or whatever, and mid B rank is voted upon by the council, with the changes in viab ranks and re-vote by the council every x number of months (2 or 3 I guess?)
[10:25] Disaster Area: pro's: community can be very involved in the formation of the tier, people's biases are very easily rooted out, there's no way to abuse the system to get a favourite mon into the tier,
[10:26] Disaster Area: pokemon that aren't viable in the tier (e.g. donphan in ou in early xy, or ambipom and some others n RU)
[10:26] Disaster Area: wouldn't be in the tier
[10:26] &xfix: Looks strange to me.
[10:26] Disaster Area: note also that if you compare this with the smogon ou viab ranks
[10:26] Disaster Area: that in B+ and above everything is good in OU and deserves to be OU, though some of it's BL
[10:27] Disaster Area: in B- there's a couple of OU pokemon that are pretty weak picks in OU and would be happy to drop
[10:27] Disaster Area: and in mid B there's a mishmash of OU, BL, and UU Pokémon
[10:27] Disaster Area: obviously in the cons is that it's less objective (though I argue that the subjectivity is limited and the other benefits outweight that loss)
[10:28] Disaster Area: and in the really early days of a meta, usage probably gives you something much more reliable
[10:28] &xfix: ... I'm not sure about the idea, honestly.
[10:28] &xfix: Smogon tiering may have its flaws (Ambipom...), but would a system where tiers would be decided by community better?
[10:29] Disaster Area: surely it'd be
[10:29] Disaster Area: good PR?
[10:29] Disaster Area: ALSO a lot of mons are banned from smogon's OU that aren't viable in ubers (and in some cases aren't viable in any main smogon meta in any generation), and
[10:29] Disaster Area: in 1U and 2U most if not all of those pokemon
[10:29] Disaster Area: would find homes
[10:30] Disaster Area: such as greninja, mega mawile, and arceus-bug
[10:30] Disaster Area: anyway
[10:30] Disaster Area: I need to go right now
[10:30] Disaster Area: to university
[10:30] Disaster Area: so we can chat later I guess
[10:31] &xfix: Greninja is a viable hazard setter in Ubers, I think.
[11:23] #Joim: The tiers are already decided by the community...
[11:26] #Joim: And yeah, Greninja is viable in ubers
[14:23] lt8z roamer: I dislike the idea of subjective metrics to decide tiers because you're essentially forcing everyone to play something an individual or a group of individuals think is best
[14:23] lt8z roamer: usage isn't flawless but at least it's an objective metric
[15:39] Disaster Area: joim
[15:39] Disaster Area: it's just barely viable in ubers
[15:39] Disaster Area: depending on who you ask
[15:39] Disaster Area: and reshiram is completely unviable, as is palkia (which was a top mon in every generation previous)
[15:40] Disaster Area: also seems roamer isn't here, but basically anyone who wants to have a say in what the choice of tier is can just contribute to the viability rankings, that's that simple
[15:40] Disaster Area: and whilst the council vote on the mons in the mid B rank, one we'd have open discussion with the community before deciding upon our votes, and secondly we'd consider creating an extended council allowed to vote on it, using player rankings produced by the regular seasonal tournaments we'd be doing
[15:41] Disaster Area: akin to the ones we've run for the past 3 years or so in RBY and GSC
[15:43] Disaster Area: [15:41] Disaster Area: astounded
[15:43] Disaster Area: [15:41] Disaster Area: is greninja viable in ubers?
[15:43] Disaster Area: [15:42] @Astounded: I don't like it man
[15:43] Disaster Area: [15:43] Disaster Area: so you're saying you'd probably never use it in a serious game?
[15:43] Disaster Area: [15:43] @Astounded: It loses against deo-s
[15:43] Disaster Area: [15:43] @Astounded: I wouldn't
[15:43] Disaster Area: winner of the ubers seasonal and well-respected ubers player opinion on greninja, Joim


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[15:46] ~Joim: Development is NOT for that
[15:46] Disaster Area: x_x rip
[15:47] ~Joim: We've let it slip with one time spam and advertising
[15:47] ~Joim: Two is not going to slip
[15:47] Disaster Area: it's flood if anything, not spam n_n
[15:47] Disaster Area: owel
[15:47] ~Joim: if you want to discuss OMs or Ubers, there are rooms for that
[15:48] ~Joim: if you want to discuss tiering, go to policy in Smogon
[15:48] Disaster Area: i quit smogon after a smod publicly shamed me for no reason and locked me out of my account temporarily and then got away unpunished.
[15:48] ~Joim: That is a subjective view on a matter
[15:48] Disaster Area: also I don't have access to post in PR
[15:48] ~Joim: take the hint then tbh
[15:49] Disaster Area: and I was only discussing it anyway since it followed on from what I was discussing with xfix
[15:49] Disaster Area: in fact they brought it up by asking out of curiosity what it was that I had wanted
[15:50] Disaster Area: also [15:47] ~Joim: if you want to discuss OMs or Ubers, there are rooms for that
[15:50] Disaster Area: was rejected for an OM (I tried);
[15:50] Disaster Area: in ubers I chat about it occasionally since some of it can pass as discussion of XY, but I'm not /really/ allowed to chat about it in there either
[15:51] ~Joim: Then why in the hell would you think it is ok to talk about that in the god damn development room?
[15:51] Disaster Area: and [15:48] ~Joim: if you want to discuss tiering, go to policy in Smogon
[15:51] Disaster Area: I'm well past the point of wanting to change Smogon policy, there's no way that senior staff or whoever would find this change feasible even if they
[15:51] Disaster Area: considered it benificial
[15:52] ~Joim: Beneficial for whom?
[15:52] ~Joim: Dev room is NOT for that
[15:52] Disaster Area: beneficial for smogon tiering
[15:52] ~Joim: and least of all to advertise pokebattle lol
[15:52] Disaster Area: and by extension their playerbase
[15:52] ~Joim: tbh and not to be offensive, but there's people way smarter than you working in smogon tiering
[15:52] Disaster Area: mmh most of aldaron's arguements are ad hominem tho and
[15:52] Disaster Area: the tiering policy document is mainly jumbled crap
[15:53] ~Joim: Get a PHD in statistics and then people might consider your opinion in tiering as relevant as Antar's
[15:53] Disaster Area: hmm well I'm doing my
[15:53] Disaster Area: second year in a masters in mathematics
[15:53] Disaster Area: at manchester university rn
[15:53] ~Joim: That's literally nothing
[15:53] Disaster Area: with a heavy leaning towards statistical modules for my next semester
[15:53] Disaster Area: and I want to take a PHD
[15:53] Disaster Area: so what I guess I should
[15:53] Disaster Area: come back in 3-4 years then?
[15:53] ~Joim: More like 6-8?
[15:53] Disaster Area: i dunno never found out how long a PHD usually takes
[15:54] Disaster Area: but 2 years left on my course before I get the masters degree
[15:54] ~Joim: So you still have 2 and half years of the degree to complete
[15:54] ~Joim: bit soon to consider yourself up to the task
[15:54] Disaster Area: and opinions on tiering aren't merely based on a
[15:54] Disaster Area: statistical basis either
[15:54] Disaster Area: what the tieirng here wants to achieve is slightly different fundamentally to smogon's
[15:55] Disaster Area: close enough to theoretically be in reach going from one to the other but
[15:55] Disaster Area: not requiring the heavy statistical backing since it focusses
[15:55] Disaster Area: on viability rather than usage
[15:55] ~Joim: Viability is a subjective and faulty metric
[15:55] ~Joim: if you knew statistics you'd know that
[15:55] Disaster Area: it is subjective i agree
[15:55] Disaster Area: and usage is evidently faulty too
[15:55] ~Joim: Anyway
[15:55] Disaster Area: so pick your poison
[15:56] ~Joim: tbh no one cares about snowflake tiering
[15:56] Disaster Area: snowflake?
[15:56] ~Joim: You want an OM like that? get up a server and go with it
[15:56] Disaster Area: I already discussed with zarel actually
[15:56] Disaster Area: why it would be most beneficial to have it on PS main for the pokemon community as a whole, but failing that
[15:56] Disaster Area: pokebattle main server > PS non-main server
[15:57] ~Joim: Then what are you doing here?
[15:57] Disaster Area: pokebattle's not re-released yet
[15:57] Disaster Area: and I sometimes idle in the dev room cos it's fun to contribute the odd thing
[15:57] Disaster Area: fyi at one point I did have voice in there; the conversation with zarel
[15:57] ~Joim: so an offline main server better than this one
[15:57] Disaster Area: began with me asking it to be removed
[15:58] Disaster Area: since I was jumping ship to pokebattle
[15:58] ~Joim: Then have funt here
[15:58] Disaster Area: well pbattle will be re-released before the end of this year
[15:58] Disaster Area: and another fyi
[15:58] ~Joim: but we don't care here about your pokebattle stuff, so don't flood the chat with it
[15:58] Disaster Area: I do actually have the tier live on another PS server in the meantime
[15:58] Disaster Area: alright well as I said it just began with xfix asking the question that we can see
[15:58] Disaster Area: should have been asked in private
[15:58] Disaster Area: rather than in the dev chat
[15:59] Disaster Area: i mean i was just carrying on a conversation that another dev, and a global leader ranked one at that, began in chat in response to osmething I had said w.r.t. a smogon page which was
[15:59] Disaster Area: sufficiently relevant to the room for xfix to have brought it up in there
16:00] ~Joim: That's highly subjective lol
[16:01] ~Joim: He just corrected you
[16:01] Disaster Area: which part of what I said is subjective?
[16:01] ~Joim: "just carrying conversation"
[16:01] Disaster Area: I was answering the question he asked
[16:01] Disaster Area: and then any quarrels people had with my opinions I responded to too
[16:02] ~Joim: And you went ahead and flooded the dev chat with non-dev talk for about 50 lines
[16:02] Disaster Area: I had a lot to say
[16:03] Disaster Area: if you didn't want any more said on the matter, then you shouldn't have responded to it for that matter
[16:05] ~Joim: You realise that was over an hour ago before your next flood, right
[16:05] Disaster Area: I was at university, and if it was over an hour ago, your comment could have still been some time after I had said all of that (I don't have a view of the timestamps here since you rb'd me ofc)
[16:06] ~Joim: When you talked you could've seen
[16:06] ~Joim: I wasn't even commenting to you
[16:06] ~Joim: I was just replying general statements for the lack of informatio
[16:06] Disaster Area: it was still directly related to the conversation
[16:06] ~Joim: anyway my time is literally money, so stop wasting mine
[16:06] Disaster Area: and I felt that your point was incorrect so I posted something I felt could counteract your claim
[16:07] ~Joim: I think after a Smogon ban you should've learnt when to shut up and to consider you might be wrong sometimes
[16:08] Disaster Area: of course I'm wrong sometimes but the previous ban was one where it was frankly at a point where the staff look for reasons to punish me
[16:08] Disaster Area: I pretty much got a 2point infraction for comment tone
[16:08] Disaster Area: which brought me into being banned
[16:08] Disaster Area: n_n
[16:08] Disaster Area: I might well get into a lot of trouble on smogon but I learn my lessons
[16:08] ~Joim: Should be pretty clear, though: dev room is NOT for chat
[16:08] Disaster Area: which is why in my fucking 11 infractions
[16:08] Disaster Area: no repeat offenses
[16:10] Disaster Area: (legit with the last ban I had to ask like 5 or so people before someone could come up with a reason why what I posted was infraction-worthy, but when I tried to get that ban removed the
[16:11] Disaster Area: auth who did the infraction wouldn't even let me try and argue my point)
[16:11] Disaster Area: (and saying last ban I'm not counting the random 5 minute one v gave me for no reason)
[16:13] ~Joim: ok