[3:54 AM] superlaserchickon:
u guys think



[3:54 AM] superlaserchickon:
melmetal could be fine now



[3:54 AM] superlaserchickon:
its been two dlcs since we banned it



[3:55 AM] superlaserchickon:
fuck load of stuff revenges it now



[3:55 AM] superlaserchickon:
and we have like pert



[3:57 AM] superlaserchickon:
also can we bring back the discussion around allowing native users to use the abilities



[3:57 AM] superlaserchickon:
.3.
[9:02 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
does anything really revenge it apart from like blace



[9:02 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
this is melm we're talking about



[9:03 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
i'd be fine with allowing native users back but idt think would



[9:47 AM] Thinkerino:
I think native abilities are dumb



[9:50 AM] Thinkerino:
The whole point of AAA is that everything already naturally gets every ability, and unlike STAB doesn't require a promise of standard abilities to be interesting



[9:51 AM] Jordan:
Do you feel the same way about native moves in stabmons
[9:51 AM] Thinkerino:
No
[9:51 AM] Thinkerino:
I don't think STAB is comparable
[9:51 AM] Thinkerino:
I consider it to be a false equivalency to AAA
[9:51 AM] Thinkerino:
Bc if STAB was taken literally
[9:51 AM] Thinkerino:
It would be awful
[9:52 AM] Thinkerino:
Like unless you can tell me
[9:52 AM] Jordan:
So because the idea that everything naturally gets the ability, native abilities in this case aren't a thing
[9:53 AM] Thinkerino:
You think STAB where you can ONLY use stab moves would be a real meta
[9:53 AM] Thinkerino:
Yeah
[9:55 AM] Jordan:
Ok here's another question then
[9:55 AM] Jordan:
What about mons who can mega evolve using their native stone in mnm if the stone was banned
[9:55 AM] Jordan:
Obviously gen 8 kinda hard to track. But on gen 7
[9:55 AM] Jordan:
Every mon is compatible with every stone
[9:56 AM] Jordan:
But only beedrill can use it's stone, or something close to that
[9:57 AM] Thinkerino:
It wasn't supposed to be allowed in gen 7, actually
[9:57 AM] Thinkerino:
So that's a bad example too
[9:58 AM] Thinkerino:
Oh wait you're talking about native megas, not
[9:58 AM] Thinkerino:
Orbs
[10:01 AM] Jordan:
Yes
[10:07 AM] Thinkerino:
Well, that one's a fair point then
[10:07 AM] Thinkerino:
But I honestly have 0 interest in an AAA with native abilities
[10:08 AM] Thinkerino:
Like to an extreme extent
[10:08 AM] Thinkerino:
I would stop pushing for the meta if it became that, and I'd probably step down from TL(edited)
[10:08 AM] Thinkerino:
I just don't like the premise at all

Thinkerino
But I honestly have 0 interest in an AAA with native abilities
[10:10 AM] Thinkerino:
Part of the reason I didn't take much interest in gen 7 aaa until the end is because I didn't feel like it made much sense to allow them
[10:10 AM] Thinkerino:
Oh, and on the mnm thing if it was up to me
[10:10 AM] Thinkerino:
If the premise is that every mon gets every mega stone as a mega evolution, I wouldn't allow natives there, either
[10:10 AM] Thinkerino:
But as of rn I'm not sure if that's actually what mnm's premise is
[10:10 AM] Thinkerino:
Or if that's just the way it turns out in practice
[10:11 AM] Thinkerino:
Esp. considering that mnm technically shouldn't even be around this gen, but was worked out so it could be



[10:16 AM] motherlove:
Gotta say looking at it from the mnm perspective does make it really unintuitive



[10:16 AM] Thinkerino:
Make what really unintuitive



[10:16 AM] motherlove:
Doesn’t make sense to me that some stones are allowed only on some mons given the premise of the meta



[10:16 AM] Thinkerino:
Yeah



[10:17 AM] Thinkerino:
I don't think it makes sense there, either



[10:17 AM] Thinkerino:
Bc how can beedrill be allowed to mega into mega beedrill
[10:17 AM] Thinkerino:
If beedrillite is banned
[10:17 AM] Thinkerino:
If every mon gets every mega
[10:17 AM] Thinkerino:
Then there are no unique megas
[10:17 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
in gen 8 it isnt
[10:17 AM] Thinkerino:
It isn't what
[10:17 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
allowed to be mega bee
[10:18 AM] Thinkerino:
Ah
[10:18 AM] Thinkerino:
So even if it existed
[10:18 AM] Jordan:
Well megas don't exist in gen 8

[10:18 AM] Thinkerino:
It wouldn't be able to?


[10:18 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
native megas aren't in gen 8 mnm
[10:18 AM] Thinkerino:
Aha
[10:18 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
but like jrdn said part of the changes were down to
[10:18 AM] Triage Hat merchant:
megas not existing
[10:19 AM] Jordan:
like to me
[10:19 AM] Jordan:
the notion that a mon natively has all the stones/abilities and either can use the original stone or not use the original ability has no rhyme or reason t oit
[10:21 AM] Thinkerino:
Did you word that the way you intended to
[10:21 AM] Thinkerino:
Bc it sounds like you're agreeing with me
[10:21 AM] Jordan:
no like
[10:23 AM] Jordan:
you said the point of aaa is that every mon has the native access to all the abilities
[10:23 AM] Jordan:
but who said that it's meant to be native
[10:23 AM] Jordan:
i never thought of it as a native access to abilities
[10:24 AM] Jordan:
i just thought of it as being able to change abilities
[10:48 AM] Thinkerino:
I don't know what the original submission intended, but as far as I know it's always been that every mon gets access to every ability
[10:48 AM] motherlove:
I see it the same way tbh but it still seems unintuitive to me that abilities would be banned on some birds and not others
[10:49 AM] Thinkerino:
Yeah
[10:49 AM] Thinkerino:
I don't think it's intuitive from a playing perspective
[10:49 AM] Thinkerino:
To say every mon gets almost any ability
[10:49 AM] Thinkerino:
But some Pokemon get abilities that make them more "almost" than others
[10:49 AM] Thinkerino:
For me, it's the same reason we ban rather than restrict Pokemon

@superlaserchickon
melmetal could be fine now
[10:55 AM] Thinkerino:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
[10:55 AM] Thinkerino:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 174-204 (43 - 50.4%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
[10:56 AM] Thinkerino:
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO
[10:56 AM] Thinkerino:
Somebody has to pay the price every time it gets in LOL
[10:56 AM] Thinkerino:
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 338-402 (98.5 - 117.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
[10:56 AM] Thinkerino:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 296-350 (86.2 - 102%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
[10:57 AM] Thinkerino:
Intim rocky helm corv deals
[10:57 AM] Thinkerino:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 104-124 (26 - 31%) -- approx. 4HKO
[10:57 AM] Thinkerino:
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 122-144 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
[10:58 AM] Jordan:
tc melm was disgusting
[10:58 AM] Thinkerino:
But if it roosts vs tc
[10:58 AM] Thinkerino:
it dies to superpower if it isn't cb
[10:59 AM] Thinkerino:
But anyway yeah, I personally don't think native abilities are worth considering bc I don't see how they're intuitive
[10:59 AM] Thinkerino:
Or rather, I see hand understand the reasoning for allowing them
[11:00 AM] Jordan:
it adds to the creativity of building
[11:00 AM] Thinkerino:
But I don't see how they wouldn't be unintuitive
[11:00 AM] Jordan:
imo
[11:00 AM] Jordan:
just more options
[11:00 AM] Jordan:
and maybe a couple broken mons i havent thought about it rly
[11:01 AM] Thinkerino:
But if it's more options at the expense of the meta's premise, is it really worth it
[11:01 AM] Thinkerino:
Also, if native abilities are allowed then what's the justification for banning Pokemon outright
[11:01 AM] Jordan:
and then it becomes a matter of how one interprets the premise of the meta
[11:01 AM] Thinkerino:
In a meta with native abilities, restricted Pokemon could arguably become the norm
[11:02 AM] Thinkerino:
Like with Gengar
[11:02 AM] Jordan:
i played with native abils in aaa for 5 years before gen 8 so i'll admit it's hard for me to share your interpretation of the meta
[11:02 AM] Thinkerino:
Why ban Gengar if gengar with cursed body or w/e
[11:02 AM] Thinkerino:
Is allowed
[11:02 AM] Jordan:
even tho idc if the abils come back at this point

@Jordan
i played with native abils in aaa for 5 years before gen 8 so i'll admit it's hard for me to share your interpretation of the meta
[11:03 AM] Thinkerino:
I've played it for a lot less than that



[11:03 AM] Thinkerino:
And majority of my time playing has been w/o natives



[11:03 AM] Thinkerino:
So we're kind of at odds there lmao



[11:03 AM] Jordan:
and i bet that's the main reason why lol



[11:03 AM] Jordan:
for boht of us the way we see it is what feels more natural lol
[11:03 AM] Thinkerino:
Yeah xD
[11:03 AM] Jordan:
and to that point

@Thinkerino
Why ban Gengar if gengar with cursed body or w/e
[11:04 AM] Jordan:
because it's never been done before like this, i.e. not natural lmao
[11:04 AM] Jordan:
if 5 years ago banned pokemon were restricted by not allowing them to have different abilities
[11:04 AM] Jordan:
then it would feel normal and no one would even question it
[11:05 AM] Jordan:
but its just not been done like that



[11:05 AM] Thinkerino:
That's true



[11:05 AM] Jordan:
and for the majority of aaa it HAS been done by having native abils legal



[11:05 AM] motherlove:
Melm adds a good weav check



[11:05 AM] motherlove:
Also I wanna use ppads serene grace body slam(edited)



[11:06 AM] Jordan:
and the only reason it wasn't allowed in gen 8 was bc TI gave me an ultimatum and i took what was essentially the lesser of 2 evils




@motherlove
Melm adds a good weav check
[11:06 AM] Thinkerino:
This is real
[11:08 AM] motherlove:
You could always raise the question of native abilities to the community
[11:08 AM] Thinkerino:
True
[11:09 AM] motherlove:
I’ve played a lotta years with native abilities so I also don’t really relate to what Think says
[11:09 AM] motherlove:
But as someone who’s never played mnm, restricted stones seems odd and unintuitive
[11:09 AM] Thinkerino:
Could've sworn I've seen you play an mnm game or two here and there
[11:10 AM] motherlove:
Literally never
[11:10 AM] Jordan:
he playin bh and aaa
[11:10 AM] motherlove:
Also for ppl who play showdown without rlly checking smogon, you might see an urshifu and not know it’s restricted
[11:12 AM] motherlove:
Either way it’s not an issue I’m passionate about, Think being so into it is kinda confusing to me, lol



[11:13 AM] motherlove:
It does bring in some interesting mons back like Weezing and Keldeo



[11:19 AM] Thinkerino:
Well, since it's coming up again I'll make a post about it in the thread
[11:28 AM] Thinkerino:
It seems like stances on it here are relatively established