kek 2

<Kioku> There were like, two or three people in favor
<Kioku> And everyone else hated it
<DarnellJermaine> how many of those people are still around?
<DarnellJermaine> It seems like a lot of the old players talked about have left
<EndPhone> uh, on the "yes" side? Inthimk 0
<Kioku> The ones in favor?  One.  I was on the yes side.
<Uracilo> I don't think the game needs a reset, right now. I just think it needs to wean off the system and start experimenting with something else
* EndPhone did not know that
<Kioku> The ones against?  I'm not sure... it was everyone else who was around at the time I think, so...
<Uracilo> And I think the lore page needs to have a giant billboard that reads "THIS IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE"
<EndPhone> we tried that, and we kept coming up with systems way too rigid
<DarnellJermaine> I think it needs to be a little more open to concepts too instead of using ridiculous and convoluted canon too
<Uracilo> Maybe the lore page should be written in character, because it certainly isn't accurate
<DarnellJermaine> cuz the canon seems to be all over the place made from specific chars that happened to come first and weird definitions
<Kioku> The lore page *does* have a big sign that- okay, actually it says 'still very much a work in progress'
<Kioku> But same meaning
<Uracilo> That's not the same thing
<BobaFettuccine> I agree with the lore bit.
<EndPhone> It does have different implications, Kio
<BobaFettuccine> Our lore seems very arbitrary.
<DarnellJermaine> ^
<Uracilo> Extremely arbitrary
<DarnellJermaine> and Kioku this isn't me attacking you
<DarnellJermaine> but you're literally the /only/ person that seems to know this lore
<DarnellJermaine> I don't even think most the other GMs could name all the stuff that you've mentioned is canon
<Kioku> The parts of lore that are established aren't arbitrary really, and yeah, there's a lot of stuff not there because it doesn't usually come up for most people.
<Uracilo> Things are stonewalled willy-nilly for no real reason, and it's usually in contradictory ways that aren't constructive
<DarnellJermaine> which seems strange when it isn't shared with the rest of us, cuz we have no clue where to begin or what is what
<Kioku> ... Not really...
<Kioku> I've barely seen anything 'stonewalled'
<Uracilo> There is absolutely no reason why proper ghosts shouldn't exist in Sunnybrook
<DarnellJermaine> Neon is a big one
<Kioku> And the few times it's happened, it's been for a very good reason
<Uracilo> Like what?
<DarnellJermaine> he literally quit the rp cuz he worked so hard on a char that was rejected because of an interpretation of 'ghost'
<Uracilo> Fae?
<DarnellJermaine> and Duno had to spend forever fretting over his elf so it fit in fae canon
<Kioku> Or else it's been a matter of 'note that x, are you sure you wan tot go this way'
<Uracilo> That is not true, Kio
<DarnellJermaine> things that coulda been avoided if any of the countless people that saw those sheets knew the lore
<Kioku> That's because he kept trying to insert a species where it has no place v_v
<Uracilo> YOu have not been very constructive in those discussions
<DarnellJermaine> nobody else that saw the sheet before you could point that out to him
<DarnellJermaine> cuz nobody else knew of this shenanigan canon
<Uracilo> You've gone out of your way to say "No, that's not how it works" and then kept it at that
<EndPhone> which is why we're working to fix it
<Uracilo> With no attempt to bend in any direction
<DarnellJermaine> 'again I want to be clear as we argue
<DarnellJermaine> I have nothing against you guys
<Kioku> I've gone pretty far into depth to explain, actually.
<DarnellJermaine> I hope this doesn't come off as a personal attack
<Uracilo> The explanation was definitely not enough for me
<Kioku> I can't think of once where I've said "no, that's not how it works" and then kept it at that.
<DarnellJermaine> I just think it's arbitrary and super hard to access
<DarnellJermaine> at the very least
<Kioku> I've always, in memory, expanded on it
<DarnellJermaine> if you want to have a crazy convoluted lore
<Uracilo> So there was one PC in the past who made a Fae and you hammered out some canon for them. Okay
<DarnellJermaine> even bore the rp page is up, the other GMs should know it all
<DarnellJermaine> and help guide people
<Uracilo> So why does the canon every other character brings to the table not factor in?
<Uracilo> Like, why is that whole thing about the afterlife in there when Nadia was a character for most of the first year of the RP
<Kioku> It... does...
<DarnellJermaine> I can't remember the specifics
<DarnellJermaine> but I even remember a situation where 2 gms approved a character
<DarnellJermaine> and then when you got on
<Kioku> What does one have to do with the other?
<DarnellJermaine> something lorewise or mechanically was unfit about them and they had to change it
<Kioku> Nadia and afterlife have literally nothing to do with each other
<Kioku> There is no relation
* Kioku blink
<Uracilo> Nadia the angel?
<DarnellJermaine> I know that sounds vague but I remember it cuz I was like 'but 2 other gms already said it was cool'
<SavanahHolland> Red and me worked on the heaven and hell stuff
<SavanahHolland> it was cannon
<DarnellJermaine> I know one was I think Boba's newest char
<EndPhone> I remember I had a whole debate where one player wanted an angel, like Nadia, and the backstory was full of things that would /severely/ impact Nadia, so I said "okay, not unless you talk this all out with Savy"
<DarnellJermaine> it was a sentient AI but had to be changed to a real girl's conscious transferred for some reason
<Kioku> But the 'heaven and hell' stuff had /nothing/ to do with an afterlife
<DarnellJermaine> and it had already been approved
<SavanahHolland> Heaven and hell are the afterlife tho
<DarnellJermaine> but the situation I was thinking about was something waaaay earlier
<Kioku> They really aren't.
<Kioku> And that was established in like, the first month of the game
<Kioku> Long before nadia
<DarnellJermaine> yeah but then don't uyse heaven and hell
<DarnellJermaine> because people associate that with the concepts irl
<DarnellJermaine> which mean afterlife
<DarnellJermaine> this is what I mean by convoluted
<SavanahHolland> Me and Red Worked on Heaven and Hell, which was approved by Goldie
<DarnellJermaine> you use words irl people know but then give them new pretend meanings
<DarnellJermaine> it's very confusing
<SavanahHolland> we were pumping out lore since there was barely any and people wanted to make characters heavily based on it
<EndPhone> Darnell, that's over-simplified
<DarnellJermaine> not really
<EndPhone> we room the concepts of something, made a couple alterations, and explained it
<Kioku> In that particular case, it was confusing because Naida was confused.  :-\  She /called/ the place she's from heaven.  Heaven is just a name though, that never made it *the* heaven
<SavanahHolland> Nadia was disturbed so that's fair
<DarnellJermaine> what about sierra then?
<SavanahHolland> the way I've played it is that heaven is like an office
<DarnellJermaine> she was an angel with divine powers
<SavanahHolland> Which one is sierra?
<DarnellJermaine> also from heaven
<SavanahHolland> Oh yeah that, I think CZ talked to me about her
<Kioku> Nadia was an entirely different type of angel from Nadia.
<DarnellJermaine> crayola's crazy angel girl based off anime
<Kioku> Different species, different place of origin
<SavanahHolland> I said that it didn't make any sense
<SavanahHolland> but I left soon after so he just went with it
<DarnellJermaine> also along with heaven and hell you have gods of other religions, like odin or kali based off an Indian God
<SavanahHolland> It's a mess since nothing was fully cannonized
<DarnellJermaine> so you mix a shit ton of ideologies that are all real in the world and have conflicts, or give them pretend meanings and make them more obsolete
<EndPhone> Okay, let's put up a disclaimer: These locations and creatures may differ from conventional use of the names. Other locations can be made based off the same concepts are IRL lore
<EndPhone> something like that
<DarnellJermaine> ok sure but that doesn't explain to people the new definitions
<DarnellJermaine> nobody ever teaches them unless they happen to come into play
<DarnellJermaine> and then you get long drawn out arguments and confusing lessons
<DarnellJermaine> like what the fuck is different about a spirit and a ghost or a demon and a devil
<Kioku> The established canon is 'as far as we know, there are no gods, and if there are we can't possibly know of them, and if they're from a human religion, they're not a god'
<DarnellJermaine> what about maria?
<DarnellJermaine> She works for a god
<EndPhone> We have a page to explain the differences, though
<DarnellJermaine> that can literally perform miracles
<DarnellJermaine> and Kali /was/ a god, canon and approved, that was struck down
<Kioku> So when someone like Odin comes up, they might be some particularly powerful race from another dimension, and they might even have something to do with the nordic religion, but they've got nothing to do with an afterlife.
<Uracilo> There are characters who are tied to entities so powerful they could be literal gods
<EndPhone> the title "God" in this universe basically means nothing
<DarnellJermaine> like CZ literally would constantly pm me about her ghodly powers
<SavanahHolland> ^
<DarnellJermaine> and at the time he was a GM, or some weird gm like thing
<DarnellJermaine> so it seemed legit to me
<Kioku> I have no idea what the Kali stuff was about.
<DarnellJermaine> then another gm tells me that's no longer the case
<SavanahHolland> You think the gms would try to stop that kind of thing
<DarnellJermaine> it's very confusing when even the staff aren't on the same page
<Kioku> I don't recall Kali being submitted for approval in the first place, honestly, but it might have gone through two other gms. :-\
<DarnellJermaine> he told me she was approved long before hand
<Uracilo> Also, Silvors had a different opinion on the afterlife stuff, where the character could be wrong, but wasn't necessarily so
<Kioku> So I dunno on that matter at all
<DarnellJermaine> and he'd tell me all day and nighta bout all these powers
<Uracilo> Which is WAY different from how you talk about it, Kio
<DarnellJermaine> and then shelved her cuz ofd all the complaints and he wasnt happy
<Kioku> Look
<DarnellJermaine> He;d literally tell me canonically her goal was to eventually restore power and destyroy the entire universe
<DarnellJermaine> and that that was canon and could theoretically happen
<DarnellJermaine> that sounds pretty god like to me
<Kioku> About 4 months ago, every GM looked at the stuff on this page
<Kioku> http://fifthsanctum.com/entities-and-realms
<Kioku> And said 'yeah'
<Kioku> So that's just what I'm going with right now
<DarnellJermaine> and kali laughed at demons and other shit
<DarnellJermaine> for being so much weaker and younger than her
<DarnellJermaine> and he was a /gm/
<Kioku> Well... no, he wasn't.
<Kioku> At any point
<DarnellJermaine> and that was my experience the first 2-3 weeks of the game
<Kioku> :-\
<DarnellJermaine> at least that's what he told me and he had the green dot for a while
<SavanahHolland> He was, said he was, and had the little green thing
<Kioku> But like I said, I don't know anything about the Kali business
<SavanahHolland> told new people he was a gm
<EndPhone> Let's add onto that thing that "God" is a meaningless title, and that the afterlife is unconfirmed
<DarnellJermaine> he even approved one of my chars once
<DarnellJermaine> I don't remember which one though
<Kioku> EndPhone, both of those are already on there
<EndPhone> okay
<DarnellJermaine> maria serves a god too and nobody has ever told her that's not a real god
<Kioku> They're the first two things, even
<EndPhone> then that's solved
<DarnellJermaine> and I'd know cuz gum and nemi always talk about their chars like every day
<DarnellJermaine> again, not insulting
<Uracilo> He told me he was a GM, too
<Kioku> Yeah, but gumbal1 /knows/ that Maria's god isn't a god.
<DarnellJermaine> just sayin g that's what I hear
<Uracilo> Offered to approve one of my characters and then got pulled away for a talk
<DarnellJermaine> CZ really messed up a lot of the god lore for me since it was acknowledged canon by him and others for more than a while
<DarnellJermaine> plus sierra got her powers from some divine entity
<SavanahHolland> ^
<SavanahHolland> Reading Sierra's backstory frustraits me
<DarnellJermaine> and lots of chars get powers from demons, which are sort of like weaker gods
<Kioku> Sierra got her powers from someone more powerful than her.
<Kioku> Remember that backstories are from the character's point of view for the most part.
<SavanahHolland> since her father is the angel of Judgement, Which was the offical title for Nadia, which I told him
<DarnellJermaine> and then moby
<Kioku> Characters are allowed to be incorrect about things.
<DarnellJermaine> we talka bout things being OP
<SavanahHolland> It was writen as a player
<DarnellJermaine> but he was shot in the head by a silver bullet, his designated weakness
<Kioku> They can think things but not know the truth behind them
<DarnellJermaine> and he just lost his memory
<DarnellJermaine> and he told me once Moby was immortal
<DarnellJermaine> only way he could die was chop off his head, carry it real far away and bury it
<DarnellJermaine> and even then it wasn't really guaranteed
<SavanahHolland> He literally told me the father was the angel of judgment
<Kioku> Okay, that was just a player godmoding and was in no way right.
<SavanahHolland> and went with it even though I told him that wasn't an open spot
<DarnellJermaine> tbf as clarification, I never really liked crayola
<DarnellJermaine> he acted pretty childish about stuff, but still he was a longtime player
<Kioku> And something that should've been brought up to a gm probably
<DarnellJermaine> and nobody seemed to ever correct him or tell him no
<Kioku> So, sorry on the moby thing
<Kioku> But yeah, that was just plain wrong
<DarnellJermaine> that was during a stage where I talekd to him more
<DarnellJermaine> because of the lena stuff and spooky yelling at me and not fitting in to the community, before I fit in more and realized he was not a fun guy
<DarnellJermaine> so that's why I never brought that stuff up with GMs til now even though it felt suspicious
<Kioku> Savy, different species of "angel"
<Kioku> That happen to have the same name
<Kioku> We went over dis
<DarnellJermaine> so it feels weird cuz all those CZ and Crayola things were drilled into my head the first month
<SavanahHolland> No, he said it like it was the same species
<DarnellJermaine> and now they're all being told they're wrong and there's stuff every now and then that's completely new to me
<Kioku> ... Well it pretty clearly wasn't, from the backstory... and the appearance...
<DarnellJermaine> it just seems like it's almost impossible to nail down the canon
<SavanahHolland> Tell him that, not me :/
<Kioku> Oh, I dare say I probably did.
<SavanahHolland> Aaaand he didn't listen?
<Kioku> He probably forgot v_v
<Kioku> ... Or selectively listened
<EndPhone> Darnell, that's the problem when we got so many people that all are able to add ti cano
<DarnellJermaine> and if heaven and hell aren't the religious ones
<Uracilo> So can I have a different species of ghost
<DarnellJermaine> and the angels and demons are different species
<Kioku> Ghost isn't a species
<DarnellJermaine> there are angels that are neutral and demons likee nevermore that just have control of concepts, right?
<Kioku> :-\  It's a phenomenon
<DarnellJermaine> so why do angels and demons hate eachother?
<DarnellJermaine> without religion and without living in the same place, they have no reason to conflict
<DarnellJermaine> if you just think of them as species
<SavanahHolland> I had it just because of racism in geneal
<SavanahHolland> *general
<Kioku> ^
<DarnellJermaine> yet most demons and angels would agree to be enemies
<DarnellJermaine> especially sierra
<Uracilo> It's a taxonomically recognized one, now. You insult them by confusing them with the psychic smears on the walls that people callously gave the same name to
<SavanahHolland> "You're not us, we're better than you so we hate you"
<DarnellJermaine> being super super against demons and it was her duty to slay them
<Uracilo> These ghosts are completely different
<Kioku> Some kinds of angels (Sierra) were just plain indoctrinated to think Demons were evil, so they'd appeal to religious humans more
<Kioku> I'd speculate
<SavanahHolland> The "heaven" me and red did had a lot of propaganda
<SavanahHolland> for angels, and against demons for not really any good reason
<DarnellJermaine> it would even be 10x easier if we just didn't call them heaven and hell
<DarnellJermaine> since that confuses newbies
<Kioku> Well
<DarnellJermaine> you could call them higher plane and lower plane
<DarnellJermaine> or aether realm and ether realm
<DarnellJermaine> stuff that isn't already concepts irl
<Kioku> I don't think we actually have anything or any place called Hell
<Kioku> Except a bar.
<Kioku> There's a bar called Hell.
<Kioku> More of a nightclub maybe
<DarnellJermaine> thought sebastian had talked about hell before
<Kioku> But it only came up once
<DarnellJermaine> and sierra mentioned sending back to hell
<Uracilo> Kio, Sav just told you Hell was made canon by GMs in the past
<DarnellJermaine> and sav said it was canon just now
<Kioku> Eh, I think some demons call Underworld Hell too
<EndPhone> The Underworld
<SavanahHolland> Goldie played Satan
<SavanahHolland> literally
<Uracilo> I mean, there are characters taht mentioned it a ton back when I was still here
<Uracilo> I have logs
<Kioku> Yeah, but Satan didn't have anything do do with demons
<Uracilo> Kio
<Uracilo> PLEASE
<Kioku> Or the Underworld
<Uracilo> Cease and desist
<SavanahHolland> Satan lived in hELL
<DarnellJermaine> Underworld and Over World or Upper Plane would even help understand no religious background or god
<Uracilo> With the pointless pedantry
<DarnellJermaine> than using names like heaven and hell
<Kioku> SGF oturight *said* that it was nothing to do with demons
<Uracilo> YOu cannot say "There's no hell."
<DarnellJermaine> you even have a satan
<DarnellJermaine> but he's not 'satan'
<Uracilo> "Oh, you meant underworld!"
<EndPhone> Look, let's just add a notice that things may share names with something in IRL mythology, but have very important difference
<DarnellJermaine> it makes it super confusing
<Uracilo> That's just... no
<Kioku> They're different places
<DarnellJermaine> if you do that endphone you have a duty to write out all this complicated nomenclature
<Uracilo> It's literally making people angry for no reason. The worst kind of argumentation tactic
<Kioku> But Hell never got really fleshed out
<DarnellJermaine> in a way everyone can understand clearly
<DarnellJermaine> rather than leaving things vague or in 1 person's head
<EndPhone> but we do write it out
<SavanahHolland> There was satan, devils, demons, multiple characters refrencing Hell
<Kioku> Hell was where devils come from.  Underworld was where demons come from.
<Kioku> And honestly I had no idea why they had to be different
<DarnellJermaine> that's even more convoluted
<SavanahHolland> I mean, hell, Red was in the process of doing the cannon for Hell
<Kioku> But SGF and Red were pretty adamant about it
<DarnellJermaine> what the hell (heh) is the difference?
<Uracilo> I mean isn't there an incubus in the school that comes from hell?
<DarnellJermaine> it seems so arbitrary
<DarnellJermaine> to have a hell and an underworld
<DarnellJermaine> yet no gods or religious figures
<DarnellJermaine> yet devils and demons
<EndPhone> we're not saying we're perfect with any of this, but we're trying
<Kioku> Err... how so?
<DarnellJermaine> yet different interpretations among those
<SavanahHolland> End, that's why we're discussing it
<DarnellJermaine> demons each control an aspect
<DarnellJermaine> what was claire's aspect?
<DarnellJermaine> what is sebastians?
<DarnellJermaine> Devils aren't demons
<DarnellJermaine> they look the same- is the difference the aspect or contract ability?
<Kioku> What have demons ever had to do with religion - I mean in the real world
<DarnellJermaine> Devils make contracts too though, as seen with elspeth
<SavanahHolland> Sebastian's aspect was being the worst :p
<Kioku> They kinda pre-dated it by a long shot
<Kioku> Just under different names
<DarnellJermaine> demons aren't just christianity, they are just a general religious or spiritual concept
<DarnellJermaine> so what the fuck is the difference between a devil and demon
<DarnellJermaine> besides bullshit arbitrary canon and different word use?
<DarnellJermaine> they seem literally the same
<DarnellJermaine> besides slightly different origin
<Kioku> Honestly if it were up to me (and I could get away with it without upsetting anyone), I'd just combine Hell and Underworld and rename Demons to something else entirely.
<SavanahHolland> I've only played it as Devils are just weaker than Demons
<DarnellJermaine> also sorry sav, not trying to drag Elspeth in and I'm not insulting the char, just pulling examples
<SavanahHolland> Nah you're good
<Uracilo> Anyways, my point in this debate has been to say that if all of this is allowed I don't see why anything wouldn't be
<DarnellJermaine> and angels as different species but just called angels
<Uracilo> If we can have two hells we can have two ghosts
<Kioku> I'm pretty sure devils had nothing to do with demons, as far as that goes.
<DarnellJermaine> but those different species are related like cray saying nadia was sierras father
<DarnellJermaine> this is so damn complicated
<SavanahHolland> Cray didn't say Nadia was Sierra's father, more so just took the title even though I said that wasn't okay
<DarnellJermaine> you have to fuckin study this shit
<DarnellJermaine> and even then without asking tons of questiopns and learning as shit comes upo, you'll never know it all
<DarnellJermaine> how is anyone expected to follow?
<Kioku> Just... okay, considering Sierra (it was figured out and established otherwise, dammit) and Moby... I'd opt to say 'ignore anything Cray said if it wasn't backed up'
<DarnellJermaine> what about CZ and Kali?
<DarnellJermaine> He acknowledged kali, and I think lena and silv did too
<Kioku> I told you, I have no idea about Kali
<DarnellJermaine> and the godliness
<DarnellJermaine> but that goes to an earlier point, how come some GMs did and you didn;t?
<DarnellJermaine> just like you know a lot of this lore and other gms don;t