Barrett Brown Pat Frey Chat #4

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Patrick Frey <patterico@gmail.com>
Date: 2012/6/21
Subject: Chat with Patrick Frey
To: barriticus@gmail.com


12:23 AM Patrick: I thought Project PM was partially about posing as others using sock puppets
12:24 AM me: one second
12:28 AM okay, sorry
Project PM has never been about that, where did you get that impression?
Patrick: Maybe I'm wrong, I admit ignorance on the whole thing
Vague memory
12:29 AM Something Rauhauser said, I think
You don't know how to spell his name???
12:30 AM me: Okay, Project PM started in late 2009 and was originally intended to incubate experimental online activism/philanthropy/blogging setups, I talked about it in my outlets like HuffPo, Vanity Fair, Skeptical Inquirer when I was recruiting
Patrick: Rauhauser has described himself as a participant
12:31 AM me: He probably thought of himself as a participant, he hung out in our IRC channel off and on for a while, originally under his own name
12:32 AM As I recall he was keen on telling us about various networks he was developing by which to keep congressmen appraised of policy info via their assistants or what have you
12:33 AM As back then, our focus was largely on building either a blogging network based around a schematic I designed, and then using a similar schematic for crowd-sourced projects along the lines of our Science Journalism Improvement Project
at any rate, that's how I met the guy, I'm assuming he found out about PM via one of my HuffPo posts
one sec, just saw you sent an e-mail
12:34 AM Patrick: Don't take offense
me: Er, okay
Patrick: It's characteristically blunt
me: Regarding me being unlikely to take McCain at face value, that's absolutely true, considering the circumstances
Patrick: Most people live their lives as bullshitters and I don't want to be that way
me: but in this case he's excerpting something that Neal wrote in his own words
12:35 AM Patrick: True enough
me: So it doesn't matter who put it forward and whether or not I trust the person excerpting it
12:36 AM I knew that Neal did something involving Twitter but didn't know the nature of it until I saw your post from the other day in which you lay out these various bizarre messages about this woman "asking for it" or what have you
Patrick: What woman asking for it?
I don't remember that
12:37 AM me: Also I understand your general suspicion since Neal has been involved in some extent with portions of Anonymous and all that,
one sec, I'll show you
12:38 AM it's on one of your recent posts, him or one of his people say something like "you weren't raped it was rough sex"
Patrick: OccupyRebellion
Mocking Liberty Chick
me: yes
12:39 AM Patrick: Well, look
Everything I tell you is with the thought in mind that you could be the earnest Barrett Brown I like to think of you as being,
or
me: I guess the best way for me to get you to understand that I'm in earnest is to explain that I'm in some degree of contact with a huge number of people, and am not able or inclined to keep track of everything everyone does
Patrick: You could be Neal's best buddy dispatched to find out what I know
12:40 AM I'll just tell the truth either way
Neal has openly declared that he wants to see me:
fired
bankrupted
sued
disgraced
prosecuted for God knows what crimes
and so forth
me: Yeah, I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise
Patrick: I believe he is a psychopath
And he is FIXATED on me by all accounts
12:41 AM Don't worry about it
Again: I'm being straight with you no matter what your role is
12:42 AM He has done his level best to make it seem as though he was involved in my SWATting
me: I would simply say that I don't hold you responsible for the things that McCain does, even though he has publicly accused me of being an FBI informant twice in the past month, because I know that every relationship is nuanced, that not everyone knows or approves of everything that every other person does that he has any sort of contact with
Patrick: And though I know you have no love for federal law enforcement, I hope they get to the bottom of that
You know McCain and I have scrapped
me: Yes, I do
Patrick: I have not taken back anything I said
12:43 AM But what I said was misportrayed by some
And I believe he is doing an energetic and good job revealing Neal's role in the harassment suffered by me and others
12:44 AM Put it this way:
Stacy McCain never took any action to have me killed
I can't say the same about Neal with any confidence
You a fan of Jay Leiderman?
12:45 AM me: Anyway, I wrote you that e-mail because I generally disapprove of what Neal seems to have been involved with, and am not asking you for any info, and will happily answer any questions you might have, although I haven't followed all of this closely enough to have much insight
Patrick: Represents Commander X? Hero to Anonymous activists? Right?
me: Yes and no
He doesn't represent Commander X
Patrick: Elaborate please
Then the media articles I read are wrong
Because they say he does
12:46 AM me: I met Leiderman a while back, he helped to arrange pro bono defense for many of the people who were raided and then charged with the DDOS attacks against Paypal last year
Patrick: What a guy
12:47 AM You guys are supposedly in favor of free speech, right?
me: X has another lawyer who actually technically repped him, Leiderman has simply assisted on that and other cases
Patrick: But I guess you will profess ignorance on Leiderman's thug tactics against me
Right?
me: Excuse me
12:48 AM Patrick: You know he is representing someone suing me because of a BLOG POST I did
Don't you???
Do you not know that?
me: I don't know what tactics you're referring to, and if you'd like to tell me I'll listen, but keep in mind that I don't know everything
Patrick: I am asking
Neal arranged for that representation
me: Can you not ask by starting with "I guess you'll profess ignorance"?
Patrick: OK
12:49 AM I feel defensive because I know you have had interactions with the guy and he is trying to sue me for a blog post
It seems like you would know about that, but I'll be fair to you and just ask if you do
12:50 AM me: On whose behalf is he suing you, Neals?
Patrick: Nadia Naffe
Neal arranged it
Neal and Leiderman have also discussed suing me and others for RICO
me: I've seen her being retweeted, not sure exactly what her deal is?
Patrick: Simple
12:51 AM Neal put her up to suing me
On behalf of Kimberlin
That's her deal
The. End.
me: So, they've sent you something about that?
Patrick: Suing me and my boss, actually
Nah
I read about it all online
On Breitbart Unmasked
12:52 AM On emails from Neal sent to others that they forward to me
Etc.
On Nadia's Twitter feed
I know there is a civil claim against me and my boss
But I get to learn all about it by reading about it on Twitter feeds and sites associated with Neal and Nadia and Kimberlin
12:53 AM Lawsuits to retaliate against people for commentary on public controversies: is that part of the Anonymous creed?
Because it's sure part of Neal's creed
And Kimberlin's
12:54 AM It would be interesting to see you publicly pronounce on this
I thought Anonymous stood for free speech. But Neal's version stands for free speech of the sort he likes -- and retaliating against the sort he doesn't like
12:55 AM me: I've told you, just now, via e-mail, that I don't approve of Neal, and have apologized to you for having associated with him
As for Anonymous
Patrick: He also has gone after my wife on numerous occasions
12:56 AM Which is totally thuggish as she is a Democrat and doesn't even agree with my politics. But I love her because my life is about more than just politics
me: There's quite a bit I don't approve of that has gone on under its "banner," and I've been pretty vocal about that
Patrick: I am not a political automaton
I am a human being with a family
12:57 AM me: You don't need to tell me that, I don't think you are
Patrick: And a job that Neal Rauhauser and Brett Kimberlin are trying their level best to get me fired from
A job I do well
And honestly, and ethically
And your pal Leiderman is part of their little jihad
12:58 AM me: Can you please slow down a bit and keep in mind that I'm trying to do the right thing here?
Patrick: I wouldn't be talking to you if I didn't think that was at least a possibility
me: The whole reason I approached you is that I've seen some of this via these recent posts and don't like what's been directed at you
12:59 AM Patrick: But I'm not stupid either, and I am suspicious, and if my suspicion is unfair as directed at you I hope you don't take it personally
I am suspicious but open-minded
You have always seemed to have a good heart
1:00 AM me: I understand that, but please remember, again, that I'm answering any questions you have
Patrick: Maybe you fooled me but that's how you have come across
me: If you want to trade stories about who's family is being targeted by who's faction, I can tell you some great stuff about what the FBI is doing to my mom
Otherwise, let's keep this on point
Patrick: Well, you owe it to yourself to learn more about Jay Leiderman and his involvement with trying to ruin my life
1:01 AM I'd listen to what the FBI is doing to your mom
I'm no fan of the FBI these days as I think they have been cavalier about what happened to me and my family
me: There's no reason for me to tell you about it because it won't help anything and it's not something you yourself did
Patrick: OK
1:02 AM me: I just want you to understand that I'm also being targeted and that although I want to be helpful to whomever is being wronged, and do understand that you're being wronged, and although I'm willing to do whatever is the right thing even if it's going to cause me additional problems I don't need, I also don't want to be spoken to along those lines
Patrick: There are people who would say I am crazy for even talking to you. Maybe I am. I assume the FBI monitors your chat logs, as I have always said. I don't say anything that I would be embarassed to have revealed
1:03 AM "I also don't want to be spoken to along those lines" -- what do you mean?
me: As for Leiderman
1:04 AM Patrick: Look, I try to give everyone the respect they have earned. As far as I know, you have treated me with respect. I don't want you to see me as a sucker, but I don't mean to insult you in any way
me: That's fine
1:05 AM Look, what questions do you have for me, and I'll answer them
Patrick: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as I think you have tried to be straight with me
Leiderman?
Expound on him; brb
5 minutes
1:11 AM me: Well, mostly I just know him via efforts I was making in early 2011 to arrange pro bono defense for those who were raided, and he's also provided advice to various other activists and all of that, but vis a vis this situation with you, I don't know much. Neal sent me a message about six months ago give or take that he had gotten Leiderman to rep him on something but I didn't pay attention to what, or maybe he didn't say
Patrick: Can you forward that?
me: I don't know what he personally knows even about Reahauser, or what he's been told by him, or whatever
1:12 AM It wasn't an e-mail, is the problem
Patrick: RaUhauser
 So?
 Screenshot it and forward it
me: most of the communications I've gotten from him have been on IRC or Skype messaging
1:13 AM No, as in don't still have it, assuming you're not familiar with how IRC works but one has to actively log convos to keep them
Patrick: Never used it
1:14 AM me: It's popular with Anons and the "other side" as well, sort of a niche medium
 anyway
Patrick: Well, if you truly disapprove of the guy and his actions, I would appreciate your forwarding whatever he has sent you in the past 1-2 years
me: as for Skype
Patrick: That you can
1:15 AM me: it only keeps from last 3 months, and the only text messages I have from him on skype consist of him expressing irritation that I haven't picked up his calls
 as in
 [3/8/2012 9:38:37 PM] Neal Rauhauser: meh
[3/12/2012 1:15:15 AM] Neal Rauhauser: oh
[5/25/2012 12:57:10 AM] Neal Rauhauser: Hey
[6/1/2012 8:54:16 PM] * Missed call from Neal Rauhauser. *
1:16 AM Patrick: Well
1:17 AM How about what I described that Leiderman is doing to me? Thumbs up or thumbs down from you?
me: as for gmail
Patrick: Go ahead, about Gmail
1:18 AM me: I've got a number of messages from him over last year, most of which I never responded to, some of which appear to be sent to about ten people and are generally updates regarding his weiner twitter nonsense
1:19 AM Patrick: I'd be interested in all those
 You already sent me a couple
me: then some about occupy, a couple of irritating ones about something he didn't like about some aspect of Anon that he seems to have thought I had some control over, etc
Patrick: I'd be interested in any and all emails from him
1:20 AM He's trying to destroy my life due to some fantasy he has (or at least professes to have) about me and Weiner
 As if I would care that much about some Congressman from New York
1:21 AM me: there don't seem to be any more here with your name in them other than the two I sent you
Patrick: Anything he has sent would be useful
1:22 AM Up to you
 Don't know what you really think of him
 As for Leiderman
 I would like an answer as to your thoughts about his trying to sue me out of a job
1:23 AM me: Pat, I'd really have to see what Leiderman himself has said or done in regards to suing you out of your job before I comment on that
 I haven't asked you to say anything about McCain trying to claim I'm likely to throw a grenade at the Pentagon
1:25 AM Patrick: Read my blog about Nadia Naffe
me: Neal obviously has a tendency to exaggerate what he's doing and who approves/is involved, and frankly
1:26 AM Patrick: http://patterico.com/2012/06/12/more-evidence-emerges-of-brett-kimberlins-involvement-in-nadia-naffe-litigation-against-me/
me: If I do get an indication that Leiderman is actually going to try to sue you, I'll talk to him and tell him to reconsider and pass on whatever message from you or do whatever else is appropriate from my end
Patrick: Oh, Leiderman is the lawyer on the lawsuit against me
 Read what I just sent you
1:27 AM me: So there is a lawsuit?
Patrick: Right now it's a civil claim
 A "tort claims act" claim
 Precursor to a civil suit in regular court
 Read the link I just sent
1:28 AM Also, this:
 Nadia Naffe’s civil claim against me — Nadia Naffe has now filed a civil claim against me and my boss Steve Cooley — and the lawyer is Jay Leiderman, an online buddy of Neal Rauhauser’s who put out a request on a defense attorney mailing list to investigate whether any defense attorneys don’t like me. Although I have not seen the legal claim myself, excerpts of Naffe’s legal claim have appeared at the web site of self-described Kimberlin supporter and Rauhauser friend BreitbartUnmasked.com. Before the claim was filed, Rauhauser and @BreitbartUnmasked encouraged Naffe to file the sorts of claims that appear in the civil claim.

Naffe has publicly said that she plans to use her lawsuit against me to ask questions in discovery about the value of my house — a topic in which Rauhauser and @OccupyRebellion have expressed interest in the past. According to a friend of mine, Naffe has also said that she plans to ask me and my wife under oath the true identity of conservative blogger Ace of Spades. Which is not something she ought to care about, since Ace had never said a word about her (although he has now).




You know who cares about Ace’s identity? Brett Kimberlin supporter @BreitbartUnmask. He has written entire posts about Ace’s identity. And before I was swatted, someone threatened me by email. That person threatened one other person the same night: Ace of Spades.

Additionally, Brett Kimberlin has used a subpoena in the Seth Allen lawsuit to subpoena James O’Keefe’s stolen emails from Naffe — despite the fact that there has been a final judgment in that lawsuit.
 From this post:
 http://patterico.com/2012/05/25/convicted-bomber-brett-kimberlin-neal-rauhauser-ron-brynaert-and-their-campaign-of-political-terrorism/
1:29 AM Leiderman is ABSOLUTELY a lawyer in a civil claim against me and my boss
 Arranged by Neal
 ABSOLUTELY
 And
 He was snooping around on me, using a defense attorney email list
 I heard about it from the defense attorney on one of my cases
 Said Leiderman sent out an email asking about me
1:30 AM me: And what is the complaint, or grounds?
Patrick: Read this post:
 http://patterico.com/2012/03/24/documents-from-nadia-naffes-race-discrimination-case-against-the-rnc-the-computer-that-was-never-returned/
1:31 AM Let me know when you're done
1:34 AM me: okay
Patrick: See where I link her depo?
me: So she's trying to sue you for having allegedly provided advice to O'Keefe?
Patrick: It's hundreds of pages, straight from PACER
me: or, rather, filing a bar complaint?
1:35 AM Patrick: Hang on one second
 You see that
 One, two, three = links to her depo
 See it?
 "The relevance of the laptop is described in her deposition, which I found on PACER as well, in three parts: one, two, and three. "
1:36 AM me: yes, these are PDFs that will take me a while to download
Patrick: All public documents, you agree?
me: sure
Patrick: I found them on PACER
 OK
 Well, the idiots who uploaded them didn't redact what they were supposed to redact
 So
 For example
 They asked her her SS#
 It was in there
 I had NO IDEA
1:37 AM Within maybe an hour or so of my putting it up, Ron Brynaert triumphantly announced on Twitter that I had published her SS#
 Which of course I had no intention of doing
 I IMMEDIATELY took it down
me: Okay, let's stop right there, on Ron Brynaert
1:38 AM Patrick: But now she is suing me for, supposedly, deliberately putting up her SS#
 To intimidate her
me: You know that this guy has been harassing me as well?
Patrick: I would believe it
 He is CRAZY
 Anyway
 I took it down
 Redacted it
me: And thinks I run some sort of major conspiracy involving the media
Patrick: And put it back up
 And your pal Leiderman
 Now sues me
 Claiming I was trying to intimidate her
1:39 AM By publishing her SS# and her "medical records"
 Because she was asked in the depo what medications she takes, and she answered
 So:
 I put up public docs from PACER
 And Leiderman and Naffe sue me
 There you have it
 That is the claim
 All arranged by Neal
 And Kimberlin
1:40 AM I have the screenshots showing they arranged for Leiderman to be her lawyers
 lawyer
 And that they encouraged her to file a complaint with my office
 Neal and Brett are using her and Leiderman to 1) sue me and 2) try to get me fired
 Nice, ethical, and moral, huh?
 You support that?
1:41 AM me: No, I don't
Patrick: That's your pal Leiderman
 He's in league with Neal on this
 100%
 100%
me: So, what would you like me to do on this?
Patrick: It's thuggish
 It's anti free speech
1:42 AM It's everything you are supposedly against
 Oppose it, publicly
 Speak out
me: Now, if I do so
 As in, if I take up your side on this, publicly, in whatever outlets I have remaining to me
Patrick: Yes?
1:43 AM You'll confuse the hell out of a lot of people
1:44 AM me: Are you going to follow my example and call out McCain for the several posts he's written about me being an FBI informant?
 The reason I ask is because
1:45 AM I'm more than happy to answer your questions, like I have, things along those lines.
1:46 AM I just don't know what my responsibility should be to you, in terms of conflicts you're involved in with a lawyer to whom I'm somewhat indebted for having helped to ensure that various young people who are facing 15 years for DDOSing a corporate website get free legal representation
1:47 AM Like I said, I don't like Neal, and obviously Brett Kimberlin is deranged
1:48 AM It's just that you're asking me to take your side in a conflict between you and another party with whom I'm acquainted, Liederman, whereas I just don't think you would be inclined to take my side in a matter between and another party with whom you're acquainted, McCain
 Do you think that's a reasonable question/point for me to make?
Patrick: It comes down to this:
1:49 AM 1) Have I proven to you that the lawsuit against me is bullshit?
 2) Have you proven to me that McCain's allegations about you are bullshit?
 I like to think of myself as intellectually honest
 You KNOW the shit I have taken from my side for calling them out when I thought it was right
1:50 AM Don't deny that
 So
 I am not looking for a "deal" here
me: As for 2), you and I haven't spent 45 minutes discussing McCain's allegations against you, whereas we've just spent 45 minutes discussing Liederman's participation in something against you
Patrick: If you prove to me that McCain is saying bullshit about you, I'll call it bullshit
me: I don't mean to imply anything in terms of a "deal"
Patrick: If you think I have proven Leiderman's lawsuit is bullshit, I'd like you to call it bullshit
 Not a deal
1:51 AM Just intellectual honesty
 Send me whatever proof you like that McCain is full of it
 I'll look at it
 I think I have a track record
 I call out bullshit when I see it
me: What I mean is that I would obviously have to think more about this and talk to Leiberman and see what exactly they're thinking in terms of this before I would go out and denounce him
Patrick: You can't really plausibly deny that
1:52 AM Whatever
me: Just as you would need me to show you and discuss what MCCain has said about me and why it's wrong before you'd go out and do anything about that
 Again, does that make sense?
Patrick: Nadia wants to use the lawsuit to out Ace of Spades
 It's total fucking complete bullshit
1:53 AM me: Please keep in mind that I've forwarded you private e-mails from Neal concerning you, and I think that's a sign of good faith on my part
1:54 AM That I'm really trying to be intellectually honest and, moreover, functionally honest, despite the problems I would face to the extent that I get involved in this whole affair
1:55 AM I guess you left?