[11:57] <Jenova> have you guys read
[11:57] <Jenova> your own thread
[11:57] <Jenova> MiFU|Work
[11:57] <Jenova> https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7212
[11:57] <Jenova> lmao
[11:57] <LinkBot> [ YAY DRAMA - New rules - Zandronum ]
[11:57] <Jenova> i didnt even notice this
[11:58] <Jenova> i need to catch up on this actually
[11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> go 4 it
[11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> that was kinda directed to leonard
[11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> since it was decay vs leo
[11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> had both of them banned after that
[11:59] <Jenova> no
[11:59] <Jenova> i meant
[11:59] <Jenova> when was this posted, april
[11:59] <Jenova> read your first post
[11:59] <Jenova> you said you will take drama shit more seriously
[12:00] <Jenova> read the posts
[12:00] <Jenova> are you blind
[12:00] <Jenova> in the topic
[12:00] <Jenova> one_two, leonard, hypnotoad
[12:00] <Jenova> and im only on page 2
[12:01] <Jenova> and still you do nothing
[12:01] <Jenova> how many people is it going to take
[12:01] <Jenova> to tell you to ban these idiots
[12:01] <Jenova> before you finally do it
[12:02] <Jenova> dude
[12:02] <Jenova> how many people have complained about me
[12:02] <Jenova> on the forums
[12:02] <Jenova> as an example
[12:03] <Jenova> also this whole split between irc/forums is absolutely retarded imo
[12:04] <Jenova> like, different bans for irc compared to forums
[12:04] <Jenova> they both serve almost identical purposes
[12:04] <08@MiFU|Work> so would you rather it also affect ingame aswell?
[12:04] <Jenova> no because the game is for playing the game
[12:04] <Jenova> the forums and irc are for talking to people
[12:04] <Jenova> if you are a shitbag on irc, you are also most likely a shitbag on the forums
[12:05] <Jenova> its not like people magically stop becoming fucking assholes on irc
[12:05] <Jenova> compared to the forums
[12:05] <08@MiFU|Work> fair call
[12:05] <Jenova> if you are unlikeable on the forums then you will be unlikeable on irc too
[12:05] <08@MiFU|Work> why it was split in the first place? im pretty sure someone complained about that ages ago
[12:05] <Jenova> dude
[12:05] <Jenova> the [people complaining are members who are banned from irc or the forums
[12:06] <Jenova> and dont want to be impacted
[12:06] <Jenova> do you think a good poster who doesnt annoy people gives a shit
[12:06] <08@MiFU|Work> not in my time of me being admin though, but yea that needs to change
[12:06] <Jenova> like
[12:06] <Jenova> a person who follows the rules, they will not get banned from either
[12:06] <Jenova> a person who posts shit on the forums will probably also get banned from tons of irc channels or even glined
[12:06] <Jenova> there are countless examples
[12:06] <Jenova> metalguy
[12:06] <Jenova> mr cheater
[12:06] <Jenova> mobius
[12:07] <Jenova> decay
[12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> yea i get the point.
[12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> as i said a few lines up
[12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> it needs to be changed
[12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> i agree
[12:07] <Jenova> im not sure why it was split
[12:07] <Jenova> but this is something imo you should discuss
[12:07] <Jenova> with the other staff members
[12:07] <Jenova> because i may be wrong tbh
[12:07] <Jenova> maybe there are a few good reasons
[12:08] <08@MiFU|Work> yea, i will discuss that with infurnus when hes available next actually
[12:08] <08@MiFU|Work> and the rest of staff
[12:08] <08@MiFU|Work> thanks for bringing it up
[12:08] <Jenova> "Hey, any posts continuing Leonard vs everyone will be split from here on out and possibly warned depending on context."
[12:08] <Jenova> post by TTA in that topic
[12:09] <Jenova> not sure why the admins can't handle a discussion about a very important topic imo
[12:10] <08@MiFU|Work> oh yea Jenova
[12:10] <08@MiFU|Work> is it ok if i split that thread up that you got and put  the bits about the staff in its on thread?
[12:10] <08@MiFU|Work> or you dont mind it to be still attached to your be moderation changes?
[12:11] <Jenova> you can do whatever you want
[12:11] <Jenova> i dont care about topics or semantics
[12:11] <Jenova> i just want a place to post my opinions
[12:11] <08@MiFU|Work> aight, probs best if i do since the thread kinda does not relate to your be changes anymore, makes it more neat i guess
[12:11] <Jenova> look at page 3 in that thread
[12:12] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways im about to post in there since i finished work
[12:12] <Jenova> no problem
[12:12] <Jenova> imo ibm5155 does a good job of explaining the problem
[12:13] <08@MiFU|Work> he pm'ed me about this actually
[12:13] <08@MiFU|Work> as in your thread
[12:13] <Jenova> what did he say
[12:13] <Jenova> well
[12:13] <Jenova> actually thats not my concern
[12:13] <08@MiFU|Work> not gonna reveal the details though he did say keep it quiet but yea
[12:14] <08@MiFU|Work> oh yea
[12:14] <Jenova> off topic but
[12:14] <Jenova> what was galactus' original ban length if you remember?
[12:15] <Jenova> i think i tried to talk you guys down and reduce it but my memory is fuzzy
[12:15] <Jenova> idk if you remember at all
[12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> gave him 3 months
[12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> you did actually
[12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> watakid told us he knew about that exploit
[12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> so we gave him a month instead like fatelord because of that
[12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> then he went ahead and ban evaded
[12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> he should of been unbanned now though as it expired
[12:16] <Jenova> ah yes
[12:16] <Jenova> now i remember
[12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways what we got out of this is
[12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> to me more strict which i promise that will happen
[12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> may need to review rules and how we deal punishments now though
[12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> to be*
[12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> fffff
[12:18] <Jenova> no
[12:18] <Jenova> we didnt get anything
[12:18] <Jenova> everyone hates your staff team
[12:18] <Jenova> read the forums
[12:18] <Jenova> you are plugging your ears
[12:18] <Jenova> and going "la la la"
[12:18] <Jenova> and letting shitty people clog up irc and the forums
[12:18] <Jenova> and saying "dont worry everything is ok"
[12:18] <Jenova> but its not ok
[12:18] <Jenova> because you never do anything to stop it
[12:18] <Jenova> you say that you will
[12:18] <Jenova> but you never do
[12:19] <Jenova> you want to avoid criticism
[12:19] <Jenova> that was extremely clear in our conversation the other day
[12:19] <Jenova> you are a weak administrator
[12:19] <Jenova> you are weak minded and easily controlled
[12:19] <Jenova> you cannot formulate your own opinions on topics
[12:20] <Jenova> you look to others for help -- when those people you're looking to are the ones that are shitting up the forums
06[12:20] <04+HeavenWraith> I'd just like to point out, that there will be criticism either way. It's just the matter of who's criticism you will hear
[12:20] <Jenova> i dont doubt you are a good person but imo from this entire experience its made me lose a tremendous amount of respect for you
13[12:20] <Jenova> of course kuchi
[12:20] <Jenova> but can you seriously tell me from the various topics posted every few months
[12:20] <Jenova> that its not the same few problem players causing these issues
[12:21] <Jenova> i can literally summarize this drama
06[12:21] <04+HeavenWraith> you already asked me that yesterday
06[12:21] <04+HeavenWraith> or was it a day before
[12:21] <Jenova> i don't know
[12:21] <Jenova> there will be criticism
[12:21] <08@MiFU|Work> i did say to you next thing they do and its a perm
[12:21] <Jenova> and people will give you shit no matter what you do
[12:21] <Jenova> of course
[12:21] <Jenova> next time
[12:21] <Jenova> mobius was ALREADY
[12:21] <08@MiFU|Work> but im going to guess, you want em out now
[12:21] <Jenova> PERM BANNED
[12:21] <Jenova> BEFORE
[12:21] <Jenova> he was literally
[12:21] <Jenova> perm banned
[12:21] <08@MiFU|Work> as in right now
[12:21] <Jenova> then he ban evaded
[12:21] <Jenova> TWICE
[12:21] <Jenova> then his ban was lowered
[12:21] <Jenova> because "perm ban is unfair"
[12:21] <Jenova> THEN HE DID SHIT AGAIN
[12:21] <Jenova> AND NOW UR FUCKING
[12:21] <Jenova> SITTING HERE
[12:22] <Jenova> AND TELLING ME
[12:22] <Jenova> ITS OK
[12:22] <Jenova> ???????????????????????
[12:22] <Jenova> im fucking done dude
[12:22] <Jenova> seriously
[12:22] <Jenova> open your eyes
[12:22] <Jenova> i dont know what to say
[12:22] <Jenova> like
[12:22] <Jenova> i dont know man
[12:22] <Jenova> maybe im wrong
[12:22] <Jenova> who the fuck knows
[12:22] <Jenova> but from the support ive gotten from the community i seriously doubt it
[12:22] <Jenova> and im sitting here and telling you this
[12:23] <Jenova> as a player, who in the past, acted the exact same way they do now
[12:23] <Jenova> and a player who has been playing here since 2005
[12:23] <Jenova> since carnevil, skulltag online, metalhead
06[12:23] <04+HeavenWraith> you did convey your point, so instead or throwing a fit you could sit back for a while, wait the other party to organize his/her thoughts and come up with an answer to you
[12:23] <Jenova> dujde
[12:23] <Jenova> he told me his thought
[12:23] <Jenova> he said them right here
06[12:23] <04+HeavenWraith> now you're just applying unnecessary pressure by posting walls of text
[12:23] <Jenova> [05:21] <@MiFU|Work> i did say to you next thing they do and its a perm
[12:23] <Jenova> this is his answer
[12:23] <Jenova> to my topic
[12:23] <Jenova> no
[12:23] <Jenova> well yes
[12:23] <Jenova> but the reason is because of the above
[12:23] <Jenova> he already gave an answer
[12:24] <Jenova> mobius has been given countless chances
[12:24] <Jenova> nobody will dispute this
[12:24] <Jenova> the thing is i've only gotten mifu's response to most of this anyways, everyone else seems to be doing their own thing (and that's fair -- people have lives)
[12:25] <Jenova> but have you guys collectively decided that mobius should not be banned?
[12:25] <Jenova> can i please have a log of the conversation?
06[12:25] <04+HeavenWraith> ok, fair enough, but the way you're behaving now the only message you're conveying is "I don't like your decision and I will make you rethink it"
[12:25] <Jenova> to see what people thing
13[12:25] <Jenova> well kuchi thats exactly what i'm doing
[12:25] <Jenova> i am voicing my discontent
[12:25] <Jenova> what else am i supposed to do?
06[12:25] <04+HeavenWraith> alright, carry on then
[12:25] <Jenova> i can leave and let mobius continue
[12:25] <Jenova> i can also leave and believe that he will change
[12:25] <Jenova> but he won't
[12:28] <Jenova> in fact, Mifu hasn't even provided a single reason why mobius should not be banned (or why he should)
[12:28] <Jenova> i just want to know _why_
[12:28] <Jenova> if you want to permban him next time that's your decision
[12:28] <Jenova> if you want to permban him now that's also your decision
[12:29] <Jenova> but please explain why, like, for instance, maybe I overreacted about the whole strangle thing
[12:29] <Jenova> maybe I am a shitty person not worth listening to
[12:29] <Jenova> maybe mobius has done good for the community
[12:29] <Jenova> maybe he has shown some type of reformation
[12:29] <Jenova> maybe he hasn't been banned for a long time, so we should be more lenient
[12:29] <Jenova> i just want some reasons why the staff is doing what they do
[12:29] <Jenova> i will be happy whatever they do as long as they properly justify it
[12:30] <08@MiFU|Work> well when we unbanned him from the forums, hes shown that he was civil (till recent events that is)
[12:30] <08@MiFU|Work> you can ask TTA this also he brought it up one day
[12:30] <Jenova> i dont doubt it
[12:30] <Jenova> i dont think you would lie
[12:30] <Jenova> and thats definitely something to consider
[12:30] <Jenova> what I have provided are some other things to consider
[12:31] <Jenova> so when you guys have a conversation and decide what you want to do (bonus point if you post this log so we can understand what each person thinks imo) you can justify it and logically conclude the "most correct" choice
[12:31] <Jenova> there is no correct choice, this isn't like mathematics where there is a right answer
[12:31] <Jenova> there is only the least bad answer
07[12:32] * Galactus (~Galactus@Galactus.users.zandronum.com) has joined #zastaff
03[12:32] * Galactus (~Galactus@Galactus.users.zandronum.com) has left #zastaff ("Leaving")
[12:34] <Jenova> obviously you already know my opinion, and you know mobius' opinion
[12:34] <Jenova> then you can look at the facts and seriously consider what is right and just
07[12:35] * Siferah (Metatron@Holy.Meow) has joined #zastaff
[12:36] <08@MiFU|Work> yea ofc
[12:36] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways my point personally
[12:37] <Jenova> also I find it funny people are complaining about this whole BE change
[12:37] <Jenova> people have left the community because they were chased off by these people
[12:37] <Jenova> why can't I do the same thing?
[12:37] <Jenova> if I don't like it I can pack up and leave too
[12:37] <Jenova> stupid imo
[12:37] <Jenova> you dont see people criticizing jwarrier when he left
[12:37] <Jenova> and i applaud him for doing it imo, he stood his ground
[12:38] <Jenova> didnt take this dumb shit, saw that he couldnt change anything
[12:38] <Jenova> just because I run servers I have to keep running them?
[12:38] <Jenova> this is stupid
[12:38] <08@MiFU|Work> now, for me to just ban him based on the amount of infractions he had I feel it may be unfair because it would mean others who may have got banned multiple times
[12:39] <Siferah> Note that Jwarrier does it wrong
[12:39] <08@MiFU|Work> somone will pull that shit, i would know because we also used to do that
[12:39] <Siferah> I've seen numerous examples of self-contained communities in this port, right now — #sot
[12:39] <Siferah> And to be more on topic, you can't blame the community for Jwarrier's leave
[12:40] <Siferah> He had EG. What's EG? EG was a separate community that had it's own traditions and such, they were basically friends
[12:40] <Siferah> Yet Jwar preferred to go outside, get shittalked and mad
[12:42] <Siferah> Try joining SoT's teamspeak and shittalk them on there, or A3's teamspeak and shittalk them on there, you'll just get banned and they will continue having fun with each other barely interacting with the general community
[12:42] <Siferah> End of point :)
[12:42] <Jenova> MiFU|Work
[12:43] <Jenova> who else was banned more than mobius
[12:43] <Jenova> for causing shit on the forums
[12:43] <Jenova> besides decay obviously, lmao
[12:43] <08@MiFU|Work> well you had capo for a while
[12:44] <Siferah> I'm not sure but Nautilus maybe?
[12:44] <Jenova> ok
[12:44] <Jenova> so you're telling me
[12:44] <Jenova> yes
[12:44] <Jenova> nautilus
[12:44] <Jenova> capo
[12:44] <Siferah> I don't remember if he was getting banned for walking around and internet bullying
[12:44] <Jenova> are all terrible human beings
[12:44] <08@MiFU|Work> yea i think naut had it as well
[12:44] <Jenova> the thing is
[12:44] <Jenova> naut was not personal
[12:44] <Jenova> naut was like
[12:44] <Jenova> naut was a personality
[12:44] <Jenova> ok its stupid and hard to explain but
[12:44] <08@MiFU|Work> there are others, i cant recall right now
[12:44] <Jenova> when mobius shits on you he will legitimately try to make you feel like a piece of shit
[12:44] <Jenova> when naut shits on you it was to poke fun at you
[12:45] <Jenova> he did it to me all the time
[12:45] <Jenova> called me a slimey croat
[12:45] <Jenova> etc etc
[12:45] <Jenova> very different context imo
[12:46] <Siferah> btw if you ban someone at the forums it'd be good to separate forums from IRC and not do like last Mobius ban
[12:46] <Jenova> no
[12:46] <Siferah> Where he got banned literally everywhere but the game itself
[12:46] <Jenova> imo you should ban them from both
[12:46] <Jenova> not the game, but forums and irc
[12:46] <Siferah> For some random PM argument with Metal
[12:46] <Siferah> Or whatever it was
[12:46] <Jenova> metal made a lot of stupid bans imo
[12:46] <Jenova> but mobius was not one of them
[12:47] <Siferah> It's not like the only thing Mobius does is shittalking, at least not on IRC
[12:47] <Siferah> Like I said before don't compare him to Decay
[12:47] <Siferah> Decay is a miracle, he shouldve been banned years ago
[12:48] <Jenova> Siferah: decay does it obviously imo
[12:49] <Jenova> like decay is brutally honest and will shit on you
[12:49] <Jenova> and decay is a smart dude
[12:49] <Jenova> Mobius is like...
[12:49] <Jenova> he will drag you down by photoshopping pics of you and spam them on irc
[12:49] <Jenova> and will try to justify it because you called one of his clan members retarded
[12:49] <Jenova> or w.e
[12:50] <Siferah> Your pics aren't you
[12:50] <Siferah> I don't understand why people take it so serious here
[12:50] <Jenova> so you think thats ok?
[12:50] <Jenova> i mean
[12:50] <Siferah> JZ made a video full of random photos
[12:50] <Siferah> And still not banned
[12:50] <Jenova> yes
[12:50] <Jenova> but nobody likes jz
[12:50] <Jenova> and jz is retarded
[12:50] <Siferah> For another reason generally
[12:50] <Jenova> mobius is not retarded
[12:50] <Jenova> and has a lot of friends who follow him
[12:50] <Jenova> who do the same shit
[12:50] <Siferah> Nobody likes JZ because he's generally stupid and aggressive shit
[12:50] <Siferah> lol
[12:50] <Siferah> Not because he made that video
[12:50] <Siferah> Point is no one cares
[12:50] <Jenova> and jz was banned also
[12:50] <Jenova> for the same shit
[12:50] <Siferah> mmm
[12:51] <Jenova> look
[12:51] <Siferah> Sorry then didn't know
[12:51] <Siferah> <Jenova>	so you think thats ok?
[12:51] <Siferah> Definitely NOT ok
[12:51] <Siferah> But not worth a perm
[12:51] <Siferah> Which is what Mobius was supposed to have until he got unbanned by a separate decision
[12:53] <Siferah> I don't understand why instead of giving out separate punishments directly after an offense people prefer to wait few months until it accumulates and then outright give a perm
[12:54] <Siferah> That's the case with most trolling-related offenses here
[12:54] <Jenova> Siferah
[12:54] <Siferah> hi
[12:54] <Jenova> you are acting like mobius was never banned before
[12:54] <Jenova> this isnt like
[12:54] <Siferah> He was
[12:54] <Jenova> i know he was
[12:54] <Jenova> i am aware of that
[12:54] <Siferah> But it's like
[12:54] <Jenova> my point is that its like essentially a character reference
[12:54] <Siferah> Wasn't it always for undefined amount of time
[12:54] <Siferah> like
[12:54] <Jenova> to the type of person he is
[12:55] <Siferah> "he now be banned"
[12:55] <Siferah> Next week "lets unban him"
[12:55] <Jenova> idk tbh
[12:55] <Jenova> i dont remember
[12:55] <Jenova> i dont know how many times hes been banned
[12:55] <Jenova> but i'd imagine its quit a lot
[12:55] <Jenova> and idk how long either
[12:55] <Jenova> i can prob ballpark but its not like i have any influence on him getting banned in the past
[12:55] <Jenova> I'm not trying to say he should be banned because he was a shitty person in the past
[12:56] <Jenova> I'm trying to say that BECAUSE he was a shitty person in the past, and he obviously has not changed since then
[12:56] <Jenova> that maybe the staff should think about not just banning him from #zandronum
[12:56] <Jenova> but perhaps maybe from irc or the forums
[12:56] <Jenova> I believe that banning should do two things: 1. make you not do the same shit again, and 2. give a little bit of "justice" to the victim
[12:57] <Jenova> obviously #1 has not worked
[12:57] <Jenova> because he does the same thing over and over
[12:57] <Jenova> and he will try to tell you he doesnt
[12:57] <Jenova> or that "he is not Ral"
[12:57] <Jenova> "i am not rustking"
[12:57] <Jenova> "i am not strangle"
[12:57] <Jenova> but being a part of their teamspeak
[12:57] <Jenova> from back in 2010 or whatever
[12:57] <Jenova> i can tell you that this is a group effort
[13:04] <08@TerminusEst13> <Jenova> but have you guys collectively decided that mobius should not be banned?
[13:05] <08@TerminusEst13> my suggestion was "boot everyone involved, get the he-said-she-said nonsense out of here, go scrap it out in teamspeak or something, this is stupid"
[13:05] <08@TerminusEst13> we are probably not going with my suggestion
07[13:05] * TerminusEst13 is now known as TerminusEst13|Zzzz
[13:13] <Jenova> ahaha
[13:13] <Jenova> my only problem with that mentality is that imo it sort of "paves the way" to do stupid shit in the future
[13:14] <Jenova> but nonetheless if you had told me this 4 years ago I would have told you that's the only obvious answer
[13:15] <08@MiFU|Work> alright bout time i actually headed home
[13:15] <08@MiFU|Work> for now, that decision about permaing them next time stands
[13:16] <Jenova> that's fine
[13:16] <Jenova> i expect you will have a conversation about this though?
[13:16] <Jenova> would it be possible to provide a log if you do so
[13:16] <Jenova> i just want to see what various staff members think
[13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> yea we will talk it out more
[13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> yea sure
[13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> also
[13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> im going to ask something real quick
[13:16] <Jenova> sure
[13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> during the day i noticed in the thread while catching up etc
[13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> everyone seems to be bringing back old grudges
[13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> like some of the spak vs a3 shit
[13:17] <Jenova> before you continue
[13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> etc
[13:17] <Jenova> can you give me some examples
[13:17] <Jenova> so i can see what you're talking about
[13:17] <Jenova> in the topic I mean
[13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> yea sure give me a min
[13:17] <Jenova> just so I know what we're talking about
[13:17] <Jenova> thanks
[13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> well this when mobius breaks down your post and explains parts
[13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7484&start=20#p98629
[13:20] <LinkBot> [ Major Best Ever moderation change - Zandronum ]
[13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> alot of past and timeline stuff
[13:20] <Jenova> of course
[13:20] <Jenova> thats his argument technique
[13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> is there an offical grudge i should know about?
[13:20] <Jenova> deflect his problems and try to make me look bad
[13:20] <Jenova> well its not mystery that me and mobius have been on and off lovers for quite a while
[13:20] <Jenova> we've been cool, then hated each other, then been cool
[13:21] <Jenova> i could tell you 50 things that he did in the past
[13:21] <Jenova> including talking about fucking children on altdeath, raping babies and little girls
[13:21] <Jenova> and talking about juicy 7 year old puffy anime girl pussy
[13:21] <Jenova> but i dont post about that
[13:21] <Jenova> because it has no relevence on the topic
[13:22] <Jenova> im not going to sit here and tell you everything that he did in the past
[13:22] <Jenova> because that doesnt matter for the most part
[13:22] <Jenova> what matters is his mindset
[13:22] <08@MiFU|Work> yea nah thats fine
[13:22] <Jenova> its not the fact that he did these things 4 years ago
[13:22] <Jenova> its that he did them 4 years ago and continues to do them to this day
[13:22] <Jenova> despite being banned multiple times
[13:22] <Jenova> thats the core of my argument
[13:22] <Jenova> essentially
[13:23] <08@MiFU|Work> ok i wanted to know, thats all
[13:24] <Jenova> yes i dislike him
[13:24] <Jenova> strongly
[13:24] <08@MiFU|Work> either way we (the staff) know its going to end badly regardless anyways
[13:24] <Jenova> but even in light of this, i think what i say is reasonable to people who have not talked to him
[13:24] <Jenova> thats obviously up to them to decide but ya
[13:26] <08@MiFU|Work> alrighty, im hoping it aint busy at work tomorrow so we can talk more about this
[13:26] <08@MiFU|Work> with staff and you and whoever else
[13:27] <08@MiFU|Work> i was gonna make a post but i think ima draft it and save it till tomorrow
[13:27] <08@MiFU|Work> incase anything changes with the current plan
[13:27] <Jenova> you already know what im going to say
[13:27] <Jenova> keep me out of your convos
[13:27] <Jenova> because i am just going to get angry and call you retarded
[13:27] <08@MiFU|Work> aight
[13:28] <08@MiFU|Work> oh yea last thing before i go, about people complaining about  your BE change
[13:28] <08@MiFU|Work> you probs already know this but yea
[13:29] <08@MiFU|Work> despite people complaining, if you think the change is gonna work, just stick with it
[13:29] <08@MiFU|Work> your cash as you said
[13:29] <Jenova> MiFU|Work we are adults here
[13:29] <Jenova> im not stupid
[13:29] <Jenova> i know its a terrible change
[13:29] <Jenova> did you not read my long ass post
[13:30] <Jenova> the entire reason I made that change was because I didn't want to moderate the community for admins who (in my opinion) don't properly moderate the community themselves
[13:30] <Jenova> and as I said, it's extremely petty of me to do something like that
[13:30] <Jenova> but i believe this is the only way to get people to listen and pay attention
[13:30] <Jenova> if that thread about decay is anything to go off of
[13:31] <Jenova> the only way to get shit done in this community is to threaten crap
[13:31] <Jenova> and I'd like to think that I've contributed a bunch of this community
[13:31] <Jenova> and I don't want it to look like an ultimatum of "its me or mobius" and I don't want you to think its like that
[13:31] <Jenova> i was just generally voicing my dissatisafction with the only way I could tbh
[13:32] <Jenova> i mean, i have already done my job to be honest
[13:32] <Jenova> i have made a lot of players aware of how the staff (in my opinion) mishandles some bans
[13:32] <Jenova> and you have already told me you will take these things more seriously
[13:32] <Jenova> which even though it may seem like i don't, i do respect
[13:33] <Jenova> because worst case scenario he just gets permbanned for causing shit
[13:33] <Jenova> the next time
[13:33] <Jenova> which is fine
[13:33] <Jenova> but given the track record of "perm bans" and history of his bans... i don't know, i just don't believe it
[13:33] <Jenova> maybe not now
[13:33] <Jenova> but 6 months from now
[13:33] <Jenova> someone will think.. "hey, maybe mobius should be given another chance"
[13:33] <Jenova> and all of this repeats
[13:33] <Jenova> like it has for the past 5 years
[13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> im going to ensure you now that
[13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> im not going to let it happen
[13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> not anymore
[13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> once we (staff) discuss it through again anyways and to see if we want to change things up
[13:35] <08@MiFU|Work> we stopped doing perm bans because i do remember someone complained about a perm ban meaning well.. perm (might of been related to cheaters at the time as iirc we used to perm ban them)
[13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> but anyways yea
[13:36] <Jenova> who complained about this
[13:36] <Jenova> when you say someone im assuming it was a staff member
[13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> i cant recall who exactly but i can say it was ST era
[13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> before we moved
[13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> and it was not a staff member
[13:37] <Jenova> tbh
[13:37] <Jenova> i think permbans are also bad
[13:37] <Jenova> and here are the reasons why
[13:37] <Jenova> 1. permbans encourage people to ban evade because there is absolutely no chance for retribution
[13:37] <Jenova> 2. permbans don't take into account changes in character in the future
[13:38] <Jenova> but
[13:38] <Jenova> on the contrary
[13:38] <Jenova> i also think a ban from #zandronum is useless
[13:38] <Jenova> because they will still shit up the network
[13:38] <08@MiFU|Work> yea that was the same argument that was used
[13:39] <08@MiFU|Work> still cant recall who said it and who agreed to it
[13:39] <08@MiFU|Work> i was also irc op at the time
[13:39] <08@MiFU|Work> so i mained irc mostly
[13:39] <Jenova> i dont know why there are different ops for everything
[13:40] <Jenova> ircop.. forum admin.. master server admin..
[13:40] <Jenova> all stupid titles
[13:40] <Jenova> staff should be equal imo
[13:40] <Jenova> when i ask someone
[13:40] <Jenova> "
[13:40] <Jenova> "hey, why didnt you lock this/kick this guy/ban this user"
[13:40] <Jenova> they say
[13:40] <Jenova> "im not a forum admin"
[13:40] <Jenova> but they are obviously good enough to be an irc admin?
[13:40] <Jenova> whats the difference?
[13:41] <Jenova> just a title
[13:41] <Jenova> if someone is good enough to be a forum
[13:41] <Jenova> admin
[13:41] <Jenova> then they are good enough to be a master server admin
[13:41] <Jenova> and an irc admin
[13:41] <Jenova> or whatever
[13:41] <Jenova> you pick admins based on the people, not based on what they can do
[13:41] <Jenova> i think it makes sense for people like konar
[13:41] <Jenova> or you mifu
[13:41] <Jenova> because you actually run the master server
[13:41] <Jenova> and konar runs irc
[13:41] <Jenova> that makes sense
[13:42] <Jenova> but we dont need to split the admins into groups of 3
[13:42] <Jenova> like for instance, i dont even know what term is?
[13:42] <Jenova> is he an irc admin? a forum admin? a master server admin?
[13:42] <Jenova> i assume he is all 3
[13:42] <Jenova> but i have no idea
[13:42] <08@MiFU|Work> yea ive been trying to get all the roles merged
[13:43] <Jenova> like what harm could giving master server access to a forum admin do?
[13:43] <Jenova> do you not trust them or something?
[13:43] <08@MiFU|Work> some people dont really want the extra responsibility of being a forum admin or w/e though. Im kinda tempted to be like, heres the permission nayways
[13:43] <Jenova> imo if they dont want that responsibility they should not be a part of the staff
[13:44] <Siferah> <Jenova>	i also think a ban from #zandronum is useless
[13:44] <Siferah> <Jenova>	because they will still shit up the network
[13:44] <Siferah> The purpose of ban from #zandronum is to not get newcomers straight into zandrama
[13:44] <Siferah> Obviously
[13:44] <08@MiFU|Work> yea i should actually just be like its part of the package and thus you will need to do this now
[13:44] <Siferah> It's not to prevent the trolls from trolling
[13:44] <Jenova> of course
[13:44] <Jenova> and that makes sense, for #zandronum trolls
[13:44] <Jenova> people like hobo filstyn
[13:44] <Jenova> or metalguy (he is dumb sometimes)
[13:45] <Jenova> but when these people get a groupf 5 and start joining other channels
[13:45] <Jenova> to shit on you
[13:45] <Jenova> maybe its time to draw the line?
[13:45] <Jenova> they bully people
[13:45] <Jenova> ok i know it sounds dumb but
[13:45] <Jenova> for instance
[13:45] <Siferah> Point is, #zandronum ban is important nevertheless, even though it often means nothing to the trolls
[13:45] <Jenova> yes you're right
[13:45] <Jenova> it is importnat
[13:45] <Jenova> but in this case its about as important as the 15 minute ban rustking gave ral for votekick abuse
[13:45] <Jenova> maybe important to people who talk in zandronum but.. mobius?
[13:46] <Siferah> As for the network shitting
[13:46] <Jenova> do you think he cares?
[13:46] <Siferah> well dude
[13:46] <Siferah> I have capo banned at #vgl
[13:46] <Siferah> He has never evaded
[13:46] <Siferah> And if he did
[13:46] <Siferah> He'd quickly get rebanned
[13:46] <Jenova> yes
[13:46] <Siferah> Same with A3 if I wanted to
[13:46] <Siferah> What's the problem
[13:46] <Jenova> now listen to this
[13:46] <Jenova> ok
[13:46] <Jenova> thats my point
[13:46] <Jenova> you understand
[13:46] <Jenova> i understand
[13:46] <Jenova> i would do the exact same thing
[13:46] <Jenova> but lots of people dont because they are scared of being harassed
[13:46] <Jenova> by these smae people
[13:46] <Jenova> like
[13:46] <Jenova> if mobius joins a random channel where i am not an op
[13:46] <Jenova> and he is not an op
[13:47] <Jenova> and starts trash talking me
[13:47] <Jenova> it is up to the channel op to ban
[13:47] <Jenova> i agree with you 100%
[13:47] <Jenova> but at the same time, if they ban mobius, then mobius will start shitting on them too
[13:47] <Jenova> and so will rustking
[13:47] <Jenova> and strangle
[13:47] <Jenova> and ivan
[13:47] <Jenova> and decay
[13:47] <Jenova> etc etc
[13:47] <Jenova> i think you need to draw the line at one point
[13:47] <Jenova> do you think
[13:47] <Jenova> people will ban me?
[13:48] <Jenova> ao maybe you will ban me
[13:48] <Siferah> lol
[13:48] <Jenova> but i guarantee i can say mostly anything
[13:48] <Jenova> in any channel
[13:48] <Jenova> and i will not be banned
[13:48] <Siferah> Like I've mentioned at #grandvoid
[13:48] <Jenova> no matter how bad it is
[13:48] <Jenova> i could be racist as fuck
[13:48] <Jenova> and say the stupidest shit
[13:48] <Siferah> No one really voices that you should be banned
[13:48] <Siferah> Even A3 is too scared
[13:48] <Jenova> and i would most likely not be banned
[13:48] <Siferah> To write it directly
[13:48] <Jenova> exactly
[13:48] <Jenova> thats my point
[13:48] <Jenova> and its the same thing with a3
[13:48] <Jenova> to a lesser extent
[13:48] <Jenova> what are they going to do
[13:48] <Jenova> i could be petty and ban them from BE
[13:48] <Jenova> or NJ
[13:48] <Jenova> or wahtever
[13:49] <Jenova> im not going to do that
[13:49] <Jenova> obviously
[13:49] <Jenova> but theres an option
[13:49] <Jenova> and if you ban people like mobius you cut yourself off from a part of that community
[13:49] <Jenova> no matter how shitty it is
[13:49] <Jenova> ok anyways i need to go to sleep
[13:49] <Jenova> ill b on tomorrow
[13:49] <Jenova> good night
[13:49] <08@MiFU|Work> gnight
[13:49] <08@MiFU|Work> and i need to head home, so ill cya guys later
[13:50] <Siferah> <Jenova>	and if you ban people like mobius you cut yourself off from a part of that community
[13:50] <Siferah> You also cut that community off zan
[13:50] <Siferah> And it's not always a good thing
[13:50] <Siferah> Because like I said, Decay is unique
[13:50] <Siferah> Most people also do something good and are overall nice to talk with when they aren't trolling
[13:51] <Siferah> So well
[13:51] <Siferah> This is going nowhere
[13:51] <Siferah> Because on one side Mobius should be banned, on the other if he gets banned everything will get boring again
[13:51] <Siferah> Or not much, depends
[13:52] <Siferah> I'd say just ban mobius and forget about it if it makes everyone happy
[13:52] <08@MiFU|Work> something for staff to discuss tomorrow
[13:52] <08@MiFU|Work> as i said
[13:52] <08@MiFU|Work> we already know, no matter what we do
[13:53] <08@MiFU|Work> its going to end badly for someone or people
[13:53] <08@MiFU|Work> cant keep everyone happy btw Siferah
[13:53] <Siferah> Mobius was banned already
[13:53] <Siferah> And there was evidence
[13:54] <Siferah> That this doesn't change much community wise
[13:54] <Siferah> That's why.
[13:54] <08@MiFU|Work> that is true, it dident really affect much apart from as you mentioned it, bordorm
[13:55] <Siferah> So I'd just be like "unbanning him was a mistake, sorry guys"
[13:55] <Siferah> And return it to what it was
[13:55] <Siferah> :P
[13:55] <Siferah> Well here is an argument against it
[13:55] <Siferah> Jenova went to sleep but I'll quote him from #grandvoid since u arent there
[13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>	if they sat down and talked about why mobius should not be banned
[13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>	and they came up with good reasons
[13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>	and they GENUINELY thought the reasons were good
[13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>	then i would be upset
[13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>	but I would say "ok"
[13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>	because its their decision and not mine
[13:57] <Siferah> So here is the chance to both have Jen stop raising the shit and keep A3 unbanned
[13:57] <Siferah> @ MiFU|Work
[13:58] <08@MiFU|Work> aight, cheers
[13:58] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways im heading out now
[13:58] <08@MiFU|Work> i'll cya later