First impressions of JP channel 4 debate

[3:20 AM] Nick: "But what gives you the right to say that? I mean maybe that's how women want their relationships, those women. I mean, you're making these vast generalizations."

"...I'm a clinical psychologist."
[3:20 AM] Paracompact: Sea star codex? [it's an injoke. —ed.]
[3:21 AM] Nick: Nah, though I saw it linked in the comments section. It's an interview with Jordan Peterson, you heard of him?
[3:22 AM] Paracompact: Nope
[3:22 AM] Nick: He made waves for refusing to call students by their preferred pronouns (what the fuck, man) but has since unintentionally become some kind of Youtube self-help guru
[3:25 AM] Nick: Anyway, he's been making several of the usual criticisms, which mostly apply to young men: abdicating responsibility and competence and leading a sort of half life as a result. He's developed a following after posting a bunch of his class lectures about this stuff on Youtube, and as I understand it since then (being a clinical psychologist and all) he's been trying to offer people ways out of that rut
[3:25 AM] Nick: The interview that's from is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54
[3:25 AM] Paracompact: Half life?
[3:27 AM] Nick: Yeah. To take a more extreme phenomenon, think of hikikomori in Japan who never leave their rooms or interact with anyone in meatspace and masturbate to waifus. It's a life, to be sure, but Peterson's point is that it's not a very fulfilling one, and he wants to help folks caught in something like that to get out
[3:28 AM] Nick: (I've only seen one or two videos from Peterson, and I think they've all been interviews, so I don't really know anything about him primary source–wise. I've heard more from fans of his that post e.g. on SSC threads.)
[3:31 AM] Nick: (My personal opinion of him is that he's way too quick to pull the very tiresome critique of "cultural Marxism" or similar, which I think detracts severely from his overall message. And of course I don't agree with refusing to use people's preferred pronouns; a person has that right, to be sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't rude.)
[3:34 AM] Paracompact: Well, he doesn't exactly sound like the first clinical psychologist I'd take philosophy lessons from.
[3:34 AM] Nick: This interview has fallen into a funny rhythm. Peterson says X. Interviewer says oh, you're saying Y. Peterson says no, I'm saying X. But about Y, actually Z. Interviewer says oh, so you're saying A. Peterson says no, I'm saying Z. But about A, actually B.... Rinse and repeat
[3:36 AM] Nick: 7:30 This interviewer is disagreeable :smile: Not that that's a bad thing
[3:39 AM] Paracompact: Well, it looks like this video is going to contaminate my recommended videos, huh?
[3:40 AM] Nick: I dunno what happens if you click it while you're inside Discord, does it still affect youtube? But if you opened it on youtube, in a non-private tab, yes, I'm sure it will :p
[3:40 AM] Nick: No doubt it'll do the same thing to mine. Should even out in three months or so, just like with the mattress ads
[3:42 AM] Paracompact: To be fair, watching from 7:30 for a while, he sounds decently reasonable. It's hard to say what with how many words she's putting in his mouth.
[3:42 AM] Nick: Right, that's about I mean about the XYZ thing :p
[3:44 AM] Nick: I've heard his point about the pay gap thing before, that it's largely due to things like maternity leave. She seems determined to pin him for sexism on this, which is just silly. But to be fair, he's doing nothing preemptively to stop the misinterpretations. I mean, after four or five times, you'd think he'd just list the four or five things he's _not_ saying. But I guess at that point he'd just be lecturing her
[3:45 AM] Nick: (I'm only at 10:30 right now btw, because I keep having to pause :p)
[3:45 AM] Paracompact: https://imgur.com/mqj6WA4
[3:45 AM] Nick: lol
[3:46 AM] Nick: lol@him trying not to laugh at a quote of his at 11:25
[3:46 AM] Nick: My goodness, this is just silly. He says women are being treated _pretty fairly_ in Western society, but yes, we could do better. And she _still_ disagrees
[3:47 AM] Nick: What in the world are you measuring against???
[3:49 AM] Nick: Okay, the interviewer's name is Cathy Newman. That should make this easier, I'm so sick of writing "the interviewer"....
[3:49 AM] Paracompact: New Man
[3:50 AM] Nick: Newman seems to just fundamentally not understand that Peterson doesn't think you can get equality of outcome between men and women. And that doesn't mean he's a sexist, he just think sex differences are real. How is that controversial??
[3:52 AM] Nick: fin
[3:52 AM] Paracompact: By the way, how much time will you be online tonight?
[3:52 AM] Nick: Wow, and of course half a second after I write that he uses the words "equality of outcome" :p
[3:52 AM] Nick: For a few hours at least? What's up?
[3:55 AM] Nick: Newman: "Do you believe in equal pay?"

Peterson: "Well I made the argument right there that it depends on—"

Newman: "So you _don't_ believe in equal pay."

Peterson: _bursts out laughing_
[3:56 AM] Nick: Newman: "A lot of people listening to you will say, 'Are we going back to the Dark Ages?'"

Peterson: "That's 'cause they're not actually listening!"
[3:59 AM] Nick: My _God_, now Newman is saying that if equality of outcome isn't possible, little Suzie will rightly think she should just give up and go back to playing with Barbies. That's just mind-bogglingly silly
[4:00 AM] Nick: Peterson _just got done saying_ that he thinks equality of opportunity is eminently desirable, and now Newman is saying he'd like to "put all those hurdles in [a girl's] way" [that was in the original. —ed.]
[4:00 AM] Nick: I'm going to have to politely disagree with Newman's claim that she's "listening very carefully"
[4:01 AM] Paracompact: Do you think you'd have the time to very quickly scan the first few pages I have for this short story?
[4:02 AM] Nick: Sure
[4:02 AM] Nick: Link me
[4:02 AM] Paracompact: It needn't be a full review like on Albinism, I just want to make sure I'm at all on track with the tone, and nothing's super confusing.
[4:02 AM] Nick: Is this the black market organ selling one?
[4:02 AM] Paracompact: I'll let the title of the story answer that for you
[4:02 AM] Nick: You say that like confusing's a bad thing :p
[4:02 AM] Paracompact: [story link removed for privacy. —ed.]
[4:02 AM] Paracompact: A little background:
[4:03 AM] Nick: Wait. If you don't want the story on its own to be confusing, should I be reading background before reading the story itself?(edited)
[4:03 AM] Paracompact: I'll just explain the necessary canon
[4:03 AM] Nick: Oh, there's a canon? Well fire away
[4:03 AM] Paracompact: That's spelled with three N's and you know it!!
[4:04 AM] Paracompact: Scootaloo is this pegasus pony:
[4:04 AM] Paracompact: https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/mlpfanart/images/1/12/Determined_Scootaloo_by_uxyd.png/revision/latest?cb=20130808173103
[4:05 AM] Paracompact: Most of her shtick in the show is her huge, almost sisterly role-model relationship for Rainbow Dash, despite (or perhaps because) she's such an abnormally weak flyer. But she's normally got a lot of spitfire and self-confidence.(edited)
[4:05 AM] Nick: That's adorable
[4:05 AM] Paracompact: Hm, I think that's the gist of it, actually.
[4:06 AM] Paracompact: Yeah, you can go ahead.
[4:07 AM] Paracompact: CMC refers to her little club with her friends, Sweetie Belle and Apple Bloom
[4:07 AM] Nick: Ah
[4:09 AM] Nick: >a hoofful of times
[4:16 AM] Nick: You're mutilating Scootaloo!
[4:16 AM] Paracompact: _I'm_ not
[4:17 AM] Paracompact: Dr. Perya (from Russian plural perya of pero, or feather) is(edited)
[4:17 AM] Nick: Yeah, I was wondering what that name was from
[4:18 AM] Nick: It seems fine so far, although the scenes feel very short. (Too many short scenes all in a row give a story the wrong rhythm.) I don't have any criticisms right now
[4:19 AM] Paracompact: Ah. I was actually worried whether the first couple of scenes might've been too drawn out, for what was supposed to be quite a short story.
[4:19 AM] Nick: Heh. Well I won't know that until it's finished
[4:19 AM] Paracompact: I'll just have to make the mutilation all the more drawn out.
[4:20 AM] Nick: That should work
[4:21 AM] Paracompact: I had to learn way more about feathers than I did anything to do with the organ black market (they call it the "red market," actually).
[4:21 AM] Paracompact: Like, there's a ton of anatomy to it.
[4:22 AM] Nick: Yeah, I don't know anything about anatomy, unfortunately. What kind of term is "coverts"? Or, what was it, "remiges"? I don't even know what the etymology of that latter one is
[4:22 AM] Nick: Oh, singular remex?
[4:22 AM] Nick: So it is Latinate then
[4:22 AM] Paracompact: Yeah, isn't that some unique morphology?
[4:23 AM] Paracompact: I refrained from using the term "tectrix/tectrices" instead of "coverts"
[4:23 AM] Nick: From the word for oar, actually. That's neat
[4:23 AM] Nick: Tectrix, hah
[4:23 AM] Paracompact: I hope I explained/can explain the anatomy clearly
[4:23 AM] Paracompact: https://imgs.drawinghub.com/bird-anatomy-drawing-step-4_3_000000016063_3.png
[4:24 AM] Nick: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/338742533419040778/404204640947929089/unknown.png
[4:25 AM] Paracompact: Comparable to a thumb, so I've heard. I'll probably include that description when it's being ripped off.
[4:25 AM] Nick: Ah
[4:26 AM] Paracompact: So does this kind of story remotely interest you? This was partially inspired by a French fanfic with a kind of similar premise, involving hanging upside down for an extended period of time.
[4:26 AM] Nick: 16:50 Peterson agrees that interview isn't very agreeable, btw :p
[4:26 AM] Paracompact: And I thought it was very dramatic
[4:27 AM] Paracompact: "I'm sure it's served your career well."
[4:29 AM] Nick: I'll read the rest of it, although I wouldn't say the premise _interests_ me (it really depends on what you do with it). I'm kind of mortified that, uh, what is it called, Equestria, right? would have a red market to begin with. But to suppose for a second I were searching for high quality fanfics on AO3, and this is one of the ones that came up, I imagine I would read it to the end
[4:29 AM] Paracompact: (In case you didn't realize, I intend this to be more of a psychological hurtfic than a gorefic)
[4:29 AM] Paracompact: Hm, that's reassuring.
[4:29 AM] Paracompact: One more Q
[4:30 AM] Paracompact: Do you think the first scene, with her and Twilight, was decently executed as sad and tender? Or was it too artifical and ham-fisted?
[4:31 AM] Paracompact: That's the one I'm least sure about
[4:31 AM] Nick: The only part where it felt ham-fisted was some of the dialogue, let me mark it in the doc....
[4:32 AM] Nick: Well, ham-fisted is the wrong word
[4:32 AM] Paracompact: Ham-hoofed?
[4:32 AM] Nick: It comes across as not realistic sounding, as exaggerated, but I figured that was deliberate. More like MLP dialogue than real world dialogue
[4:33 AM] Paracompact: Hm, yeah
[4:33 AM] Nick: Heh, a pony can't actually make a fist, can they?
[4:33 AM] Nick: I hope that doesn't ruin their playthrough of SOMA
[4:33 AM] Paracompact: Injoke inbreeding
[4:34 AM] Nick: ...Does Google seriously suggest "alright" in place of "all right"? I thought their motto was _Don't_ Be Evil
[4:34 AM] Paracompact: Oh wow, that's gross
[4:37 AM] Nick: Okay, so in the interest of fairness, I think Newman has brought up a really good point
[4:38 AM] Nick: She asks why it is that women have to be more like men to succeed, rather than the reverse. Why is it that bosses can't learn to be more like women, and so shift the dynamic more toward a balance?
[4:38 AM] Nick: (That's not to say he doesn't have an answer, just that I feel like it actually advances the discussion.)
[4:38 AM] Paracompact: Wow, I was just about to mention that (after another observation I was writing). We must be telepathic
[4:40 AM] Paracompact: He says the market determines what traits are successful (and then brings up the absolutely laughably irrelevant factoid that 80% of consumers [not bosses, mind you] are female), but it's not like a market intrinsically demands that agreeableness correlate negatively with business success. That's just a relic of the old boy network (or at least that's what a feminist should claim).
[4:41 AM] Nick: I agree that point about 80% of consumers is just dumb and irrelevant
[4:42 AM] Nick: fin
[4:42 AM] Nick: Oh my gosh, and then he went and cited James Damore
[4:42 AM] Nick: Dammit, Peterson, you were doing _so well_ for a while there!
[4:44 AM] Paracompact: But in the interest of fairness, what also irks me about This Interviewer is how long she hangs onto misunderstandings even after he was able to clearly address the issue with his first ten words in rebuttal. Like the "intelligence as a masculine trait" thing (Peterson clearly cares about accuracy but is a master at miswording).(edited)
[4:44 AM] Paracompact: Gah, I forgot how to spell masculine in English pour un moment there.
[4:45 AM] Nick: His style of just stating a precise idea and expecting her to grok it works so poorly for him here. Did he really say "intelligence is a masculine trait" or was that her misunderstanding him? I don't remember that
[4:45 AM] Nick: Or maybe you're a few minutes ahead of me. I'm at 20:55 right now
[4:46 AM] Paracompact: https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=1153
[4:47 AM] Nick: Oh, I see what you mean now
[4:47 AM] Paracompact: Ironically, she was being the sexist one by assuming that masculine and feminine traits form a mutually exclusive dichotomy
[4:47 AM] Nick: But doesn't he immediately say there's no difference in intelligence? So he's not saying it's a masculine trait, he's saying it's neither
[4:47 AM] Nick: Likewise with conscientiousness
[4:48 AM] Paracompact: It is kind of contradictory, because if women have the same intelligence and conscientiousness, shouldn't they have the same business success? Unless he's banking it all on the whole "they're too agreeable" thing.
[4:50 AM] Nick: Right, I see now it may have sounded from that like he was saying "those two are what predict success, men and women having it equally, therefore etc" but he was, after all, insisting for like ten minutes there that it's a twenty variable thing. So the interpretation that he must mean those two are the ones that predict success is a no-go from the start; he's just mentioning two of many
[4:50 AM] Nick: Oh, and at 21:40 or so now she's bringing up the transgender pronouns thing
[4:50 AM] Paracompact: And after she asks "so u mean women stupid" and he says "no" she accuses him for like the next ten minutes
[4:53 AM] Nick: 22:15 DID SHE SERIOUSLY JUST SAY THAT
[4:53 AM] Nick: "Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended?"
[4:53 AM] Paracompact: Wowwww
[4:54 AM] Paracompact: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/338742533419040778/404229807123988480/unknown.png [this is the cropped version referred to below. —ed.]
[4:54 AM] Paracompact: That face in response
[4:54 AM] Nick: lol
[4:54 AM] Paracompact: Well, lady, I was going to say, "My right to freedom of speech trumps a trans person's right not to be offended," but clearly I've been preempted.
[4:57 AM] Nick: By the way, I didn't miss in his initial response that he said he's never actually failed to call a person by their preferred pronoun, which is interesting
[4:57 AM] Paracompact: What does he do, then?
[4:58 AM] Nick: I guess it really is just a free speech thing. That he's protesting its being _compelled_
[4:59 AM] Nick: (I said at the beginning of this: "And of course I don't agree with refusing to use people's preferred pronouns; a person has that right, to be sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't rude." I never even considered they think a person can be compelled by the government to use a person's preferred pronouns. When I heard about it I thought he was refusing to use his student's preferred pronouns in the classroom, which as you can imagine I of course thought was really rude.)
[5:00 AM] Nick: 23:05 she admits he's got her. Credit to her where it's due(edited)
[5:00 AM] Nick: 23:20 he admits he would call them by their preferred pronoun
[5:02 AM] Nick: 24:35 Nitpicking that he wasn't comparing them to rightwing authoritarians but leftwing totalitarians is just facepalming
[5:03 AM] Nick: She's right to hit on this point. How he's connecting trans activists to Mao is really sketchy
[5:04 AM] Paracompact: I'm sorry, I'm still reeling from that whole free speech sentence thing
[5:05 AM] Nick: 25:55 "Tell us about the lobster."
[5:05 AM] Nick: ??? Uh, yes, Peterson... tell us about the lobster?
[5:10 AM] Nick: 28:35 I think she's got a point when she calls him a provocateur for things like the leftwing authoritarian comment, but she's still hammering this point because he says humans thinking in terms of hierarchy and status is unavoidable
[5:28 AM] Nick: Well, that was that. So do you think he came off looking good or bad after this interview?
[5:28 AM] Paracompact: Good, to me
[5:29 AM] Nick: This is about three times as much content as I've ever seen from him, and I think I have to adjust to say he's definitely all right. Especially if Newman is representative of his critics
[5:31 AM] Nick: If you don't mind, I'd like to post excerpts from his [sic] to the SSC thread. I think the perspective of someone who doesn't follow him, and someone who hasn't even heard of him, would be illuminating (since it looks like the people commenting [sic] that subthread all know who he is)
[5:32 AM] Nick: I can put it into a pastebin and pare the stuff about the short story and the injokes if you like
[5:32 AM] Paracompact: Heh, sure
[5:32 AM] Nick: (Wow, the first google suggestion for "pastebin" is "pastebin alternative")
[5:33 AM] Nick: Do you want your username changed to something else?
[5:36 AM] Nick: Man, I want to save the formatting, but copy-paste doesn't seem to recognize the markup. That's really frustrating
[5:39 AM] Paracompact: No, you can keep it
[5:40 AM] Nick: Okay. It's going to take a while to add the italics back in, and then I'll link it and if you're okay with how I pared it down I'll post it
[5:40 AM] Paracompact: Are you going to keep the Poached discussion in between? :p
[5:41 AM] Nick: Nah, I was planning on removing that. But I will have a note in there that I've removed it, so people don't ask about the time discrepancy, since the copy-paste did grab all the timestamps
[5:41 AM] Nick: If you'd prefer I can keep it in though. But I'm removing the google docs link regardless, because the document has traces of me commenting on it with my real name
[5:47 AM] Paracompact: Don't want Kira getting to you
[5:47 AM] Nick: Is that a yes or a no? :p
[5:47 AM] Paracompact: Heh, you can if you want
[5:48 AM] Paracompact: I'd have figured you'd be too embarrassed to keep that in
[5:49 AM] Nick: Well, I wouldn't like to, but it ruins the integrity of the converstion otherwise. And anyway, I talk in such a stilted and overedited way on SSC I might as well let them see me a little looser
[5:51 AM] Paracompact: How Machiavellian
[5:52 AM] Nick: And now for my elaborate and college educated plan: [first draft link, no peeking. —ed.]
[5:52 AM] Nick: How does that look?
[5:53 AM] Nick: If you want any [sic]s for places you messed up your wording let me know
[5:53 AM] Nick: Also if I missed any pictures you posted or anything
[5:53 AM] Nick: ...Just noticed I missed oen [sic], the "that face"
[5:55 AM] Paracompact: [4:25 AM] Paracompact: Comparable to a thumb, so I've heard. I'll probably include that description when it's being ripped off.
[4:25 AM] Nick: Ah
[5:55 AM] Paracompact: I think you mean ahhhh
[5:55 AM] Nick: Injoke inbreeding is reaching critical levels
[5:56 AM] Nick: I'm gonna keep that one the way it is I think
[5:56 AM] Paracompact: Heh, you're even including the bit where you say you're going to post it to pastebin?
[5:57 AM] Nick: Yep
[5:57 AM] Paracompact: Why not include even this part of the convo, too?
[5:57 AM] Nick: ...If you insist, lol
[5:57 AM] Nick: Meta as fuck
[5:57 AM] Paracompact: Yeah, if you do use that picture with the face, crop out the, oh I don't know, full name of mine with my email in the other tabs.
[5:57 AM] Nick: Wait wait wait!
[5:57 AM] Nick: I'm so meta, even this transcript
[5:58 AM] Nick: Shit, that doesn't work
[5:58 AM] Nick: I'm removing that [not really though. —ed.]
[5:58 AM] Paracompact: [removed as abuse of the transcript. —ed.]
[5:58 AM] Nick: STOP
[5:58 AM] Nick: YOU'RE RUINING THE INTEGRITY OF THE CONVERSATION