LordDz: Im geuinely confused now
LordDz: what exploit is spike doing
D.D.D. Destroyer: spike isn't exploiting anything
D.D.D. Destroyer: i'm calling removing all of your team's spawn points exploiting because it prevents the game from going to sudden death
LordDz: dude
LordDz: u can't call that an exploit
LordDz: that's been in empires forever and it's been a strategy like forever
D.D.D. Destroyer: it meets the definition quite accurately
LordDz: exploits are what we kick people for
D.D.D. Destroyer: people in america used to own black people and it was quite normal there too
D.D.D. Destroyer: and then lincoln happened
LordDz: what the fuck dude
LordDz: did you just compare slaves to recycling barracks
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, i compared the concept of a thing being an established norm
D.D.D. Destroyer: in empires, it's preventing sudden death
D.D.D. Destroyer: in 18th century US, it was slaves
LordDz: So.. Not recyling baracks is equal to owning black people?
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, and that's not what i said
D.D.D. Destroyer: even by your logic it'd be the opposite, really
LordDz: ": people in america used to own black people and it was quite normal there too
" what does that mean then
LordDz: if barracks recycling is normal and black slavement was considered both normal
D.D.D. Destroyer: the concept of each is bad
D.D.D. Destroyer: they aren't equal
LordDz: Yeah but one is major fucking wrong, and one is... a strategy in a strategy game
LordDz: that is allowed by the game maker
LordDz: If it wasn't allowed is considered an exploit, shouldn't the devs have patched it by now
D.D.D. Destroyer: In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
D.D.D. Destroyer: ^ that is straight from wikipedia
D.D.D. Destroyer: the design intent is to have long games go into sudden death mode to help end them quickly
LordDz: Yes, but who defines what an exploit is
D.D.D. Destroyer: that is prevented by this action
D.D.D. Destroyer: which makes it an exploit
LordDz: But it's been used in every fucking scrim ever
D.D.D. Destroyer: you're entering the field of philosophy
D.D.D. Destroyer: aaand that takes us back to 18th century US
LordDz: I don't give a shit about it. Keep to the gameplay of Empires.
LordDz: You can go all university stuff you want, doesn't change the fact that we're still talking about empires
LordDz: and in empires, recycling barracks has been a geniune strategy like forever
LordDz: so just because you think it's an exploit
LordDz: doesn't make it
LordDz: even if you compare it to slaves
LordDz: Like what the hell destroyer
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, it's not that *i* think it's an exploit
LordDz: You said Spike was exploiting
D.D.D. Destroyer: it's that it's not intended to work this way
D.D.D. Destroyer: no i was not
D.D.D. Destroyer: if your console permits, you can look at the chat logs
D.D.D. Destroyer: i said NF comm
LordDz: Which spike was
D.D.D. Destroyer: as NF comm is the only person that can recycle NF rax
LordDz: Spike was the NF COM
LordDz: So.. Since spike was the NF com, you basically said that spike was exploiting
D.D.D. Destroyer: not really, for two big reasons
D.D.D. Destroyer: 1) i wasn't looking at the scoreboard
D.D.D. Destroyer: make of it what you want
LordDz: Seriously man, are you trying to apply your university course to this debate?
D.D.D. Destroyer: 2) you said in discord that you were the commander, and i rolled with it
LordDz: You knew damn well that Spike was the commander
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, my university course taught me how to set a broken arm
D.D.D. Destroyer: did not
D.D.D. Destroyer: i only saw him use arty
LordDz: He was the commander for like 80% of the game
D.D.D. Destroyer: and drive the CV right at the end
LordDz: And when you accused NF to be exploting, he was the commander
D.D.D. Destroyer: coincidentally, that wasn't when i was looking - but, again, we're getting away from the point
LordDz: Then..

can we agree that you were wrong?
D.D.D. Destroyer: it's less about who exploited, and more about the act of exploiting itself
D.D.D. Destroyer: no we can't
D.D.D. Destroyer: because i was wrong in my assumptions, but not in my statements
LordDz: But who decided it was an exploit
D.D.D. Destroyer: it matches the definition of an exploit
LordDz: Like since it's been used in almost every game and nobody has complained about it expect you.. now
LordDz: I don't remember you complaining about in any games we played
LordDz: But now you do
LordDz: Why
D.D.D. Destroyer: i'm not always vocal with my opinions
LordDz: So you've had this opinion that this has been an exploit over all these years and just now you've had the courage to express it?
D.D.D. Destroyer: a more accurate description would be, in the recent months my opinion has formed on this subject, and it's as i've presented it in this conversation
D.D.D. Destroyer: recent being the past 10-20
LordDz: Then tell the devs and force them to fix the problem rather than calling out people and say that they are exploiting
LordDz: when something has been considering a geninue tactic forever
LordDz: It's like I would start screaming at people for killspawning
LordDz: Because I think it's an exploit
D.D.D. Destroyer: so what you mean to tell me here is that i shouldn't be reporting misconduct like this, and only work behind the scenes on removing the possibility of it?
LordDz: I'm saying, if you want changed.
Get the developers to fix it rather than sitting in spectator and say stuff like "NF IS EXPLOITING"
D.D.D. Destroyer: this is assuming i'm not doing anything but that, i believe
D.D.D. Destroyer: which while close to true, is not
LordDz: So then do that, instead of pissing of the few people we still have playing empires.
D.D.D. Destroyer: oh the fabled "don't make it deader" thing?
D.D.D. Destroyer: yeah nah i'm good
D.D.D. Destroyer: gotta get rid of what's bad, otherwise new good things won't stick
LordDz: Yes, but we should implement the good things in a way so we can keep the player count growing.

Instead of accusing players of exploiting when using the current gameplay rules
D.D.D. Destroyer: so you're saying, don't opelny point out exploits
LordDz: I'm saying, fix the problem with a patch.

Rather than allow a thing forever then suddenly say that it's an exploit
D.D.D. Destroyer: so what is your recommendation on openly pointing it out?
LordDz: It's kinda if Valve would suddenly ban people from using creep pulling, "now it's considered an exploit, lets ban people for using it"
D.D.D. Destroyer: you are the only person here talking about banning
D.D.D. Destroyer: here and in the IRC thread
LordDz: Shouldn't exploiting be banned?
D.D.D. Destroyer: nowhere did i say anything regarding punishment
LordDz: I thought that was the general rule of exploiting?
D.D.D. Destroyer: strongly depends on severity and the impact on the game.
LordDz: So you're saying we should allow exploiting?
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, i'm not saying that at all
D.D.D. Destroyer: you're jumping from one conclusion to another now
LordDz: So.. What should the effect of exploiting be?
LordDz: As an example, recyling rax to prevent sudden death
D.D.D. Destroyer: i don't know, and i'm unwilling to state anything here
D.D.D. Destroyer: since, as we both know, recording thigns on the internet is...a thign
LordDz: But you are willing to call out people who are using it, but you are not willing to give a sentence ofr it
D.D.D. Destroyer: yeah, and i didn't do anything about it on drygulch either
LordDz: So..

If you do not want to give a sentence for using it, why call it out
D.D.D. Destroyer: because truth be told idk what to do in that situation
D.D.D. Destroyer: i will happily point it out though
D.D.D. Destroyer: because i believe doing this is wrong
LordDz: So.. Exploits are allowed to a sort of degree then? Depends on what the exploit is
D.D.D. Destroyer: as it always has been the case
D.D.D. Destroyer: 9mining things is fine
LordDz: So.. Can we sum this awesome discussion up with that...

Recycling barracks is ok since it's always been the case?
D.D.D. Destroyer: 9mining things over/onto unreachable areas, not so much
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, because, again, 18th century US
LordDz: Oh yeah, because the US owned slaves during the 18th
D.D.D. Destroyer: no, because just 'cause something is an accepted norm, doesn't mean it's right
LordDz: But who decides what is right?
Like if I say that healthcare for everyone is a right, does that make.. me right?
D.D.D. Destroyer: conversely, if i say that being able to own a person is a right, does that make me right?
D.D.D. Destroyer: we're moving into philosophy
LordDz: Well, that aint a field for me
LordDz: So I'll say this
D.D.D. Destroyer: neither it is for me
LordDz: Cya in the next game ! Which will be in about... 2-3 months
D.D.D. Destroyer: lawl
D.D.D. Destroyer: my bottom line is, i don't think it's something that should be happening, and something should be done about it
LordDz: And my bottom line is:
Fix the game that allows the "exploit" to happen rather than sitting in spec and call out people for using it
D.D.D. Destroyer: i agree with this sentiment.