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  1. 2014-07-28 16:45:09     @bittrex-richie ok.. this isn't meant to be some long drawn out conversation...
  2. 2014-07-28 16:45:29     @bittrex-richie but this is a brainstorming session
  3. 2014-07-28 16:45:51     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
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  5. 2014-07-28 16:46:16     @bittrex-richie heres the crux of the problem.. I do NOT want to be a central authoritative agency
  6. 2014-07-28 16:46:26     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  7. 2014-07-28 16:46:38     ▬▬▶       sinetek (~sinetek@modemcable128.59-80-70.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #bittrex
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  9. 2014-07-28 16:47:17     @bittrex-richie how do we get the community to take ownership of it
  10. 2014-07-28 16:47:35     @bittrex-richie i'm more than happy to show coins that are more 'vetted' than others
  11. 2014-07-28 16:47:36     +cryptocobain   I think the main issues with code audit from a community perspective is simply that a scam can be formed at any point in a coin's life span - a one time audit is not enough. For example if MiscCoin (which lets say is now entirely Proof Of Stake) pushes an update which re-introduces a Proof Of Work reward of 1,000,000 coins in a single block, which is still
  12. 2014-07-28 16:47:36     +cryptocobain   less than MAX_MONEY of, for example, 3m then you have a post-mine scam that was not detected with initial code audits.
  13. 2014-07-28 16:47:46     +axion  richie, we both know even a large team would find it difficult to audit every coin for scams. i suggest we come up with a few basic rules a coin must follow to be added. top priority being a clear forked coin/commit history and can be MANUALLY diff'd as to not exploit the shortcomings of git
  14. 2014-07-28 16:47:58     ▬▬▶       AltcoinAdam (~AltcoinAd@ip4daade4a.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #bittrex
  15. 2014-07-28 16:48:04     @bittrex-richie well before we talk about HOW to audit...
  16. 2014-07-28 16:48:06     +Wuher  cryptocobain: MAX_MONEY does not mean what you think it means
  17. 2014-07-28 16:48:07     @bittrex-richie lets tlak about ownership
  18. 2014-07-28 16:48:12     +cryptocobain   Wuher yes it does
  19. 2014-07-28 16:48:18     ℹ     AltcoinAdam is now known as Guest58518
  20. 2014-07-28 16:48:20     +cryptocobain   Max_money is the max in a tx or in a wallet
  21. 2014-07-28 16:48:24     @bittrex-richie lets not tlak about the technical details of hiding pre/post/whatever mine
  22. 2014-07-28 16:48:28     +Wuher  In a transaction, yes.
  23. 2014-07-28 16:48:34     +cryptocobain   or a wallet address
  24. 2014-07-28 16:48:44     ◀▬▬       cryptocruise (uid38236@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-swgudhxuuklofoar) has quit
  25. 2014-07-28 16:48:54     +cryptocobain   if the post-mine is less than max_money, the code is 'legit' but its a mining reward that was added without anyones knowledge
  26. 2014-07-28 16:49:02     +cryptocobain   and since nobody is mining due to entirely PoS, the dev gets 1m coins
  27. 2014-07-28 16:49:04     ◀▬▬       wonderloops (5653993d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.83.153.61) has quit (Quit: Page closed)
  28. 2014-07-28 16:49:09     +cryptocobain   which could be double current supply, for example
  29. 2014-07-28 16:49:13     @bittrex-richie ok.. lets uplevel...
  30. 2014-07-28 16:49:27     @bittrex-richie how do we get the community to do this...?
  31. 2014-07-28 16:49:29     @bittrex-ryan   richie the only way is to list coins with a big notice
  32. 2014-07-28 16:49:31     +Wuher  bittrex-richie: The only way to get anyone to do anything, is for there to be an incentive to do it.
  33. 2014-07-28 16:49:34     ▬▬▶       loops (5653993d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.83.153.61) has joined #bittrex
  34. 2014-07-28 16:49:34     +cryptocobain   my point is, a one-time audit does not work
  35. 2014-07-28 16:49:38     @bittrex-richie agreed..
  36. 2014-07-28 16:49:42     @bittrex-richie it would have to be a continual audit.
  37. 2014-07-28 16:49:45     +cryptocobain   yes
  38. 2014-07-28 16:49:46     @bittrex-ryan   "This product could contain things that are harmful, may even cause cancer, invest at your own risk"
  39. 2014-07-28 16:49:47     +kassado        it's a full time job, or more
  40. 2014-07-28 16:49:53     ◀▬▬       loops (5653993d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.83.153.61) has quit (Client Quit)
  41. 2014-07-28 16:49:57     +Wuher  Continual audit of every coin on the market - sounds unfeasible already
  42. 2014-07-28 16:50:01     +kassado        but if it's costing the community 60 btc a day
  43. 2014-07-28 16:50:03     +kassado        it's worth it
  44. 2014-07-28 16:50:32     @bittrex-richie heres the thing... we won't solve the problem
  45. 2014-07-28 16:50:32     ▬▬▶       wonderloops (53aa5cba@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.83.170.92.186) has joined #bittrex
  46. 2014-07-28 16:50:34     +CryptoAsian    that's why going to the source with Proof of Developer IMO along with Proof of Code would work best.  
  47. 2014-07-28 16:50:34     +Wuher  kassado: Worth it to whom? The cost is distributed. You would need funding, presumably.
  48. 2014-07-28 16:50:34     @bittrex-richie but we can raise the bar
  49. 2014-07-28 16:50:41     +cryptocobain   coins can pay for audits to an Altcoin Audit Foundation to approve their latest releases, but it doesnt really help
  50. 2014-07-28 16:50:41     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  51. 2014-07-28 16:51:06     +cryptocobain   the only way to combat it entirely is to not re-enable a market until the code is reaudited every single time, which is infeasible in terms of man-hours IMO
  52. 2014-07-28 16:51:09     ◀▬▬       Guest58518 (~AltcoinAd@ip4daade4a.direct-adsl.nl) has left #bittrex
  53. 2014-07-28 16:51:11     +kassado        I think anyone who takes on the project will quickly give it up
  54. 2014-07-28 16:51:13     +CryptoAsian    Not necessarily releasing the information of the developer (unless dev is ok with it) but having an analysis of the dev and then rate it
  55. 2014-07-28 16:51:21     +kassado        a "foundation" won't last long
  56. 2014-07-28 16:51:22     +Wuher  CryptoAsian: Easy to fake
  57. 2014-07-28 16:51:25     @bittrex-richie again.. we go back to raising the bar right?
  58. 2014-07-28 16:51:31     +axion  i would definitely agreed with kassado there
  59. 2014-07-28 16:51:33     +ziddey it's not the exchange's responsibility. to impose requirements would make you an "authority." if that's really the path you want to go down, then maybe something like what tf2 has been trying to do needs to go more full scale. the big 4 need to all agree on some set criteria.
  60. 2014-07-28 16:51:55     +CryptoAsian    I don't think it would be that easy given the set of standards that I am asking
  61. 2014-07-28 16:51:58     ◀▬▬       shovel_boss (~shovel_bo@unaffiliated/shovel-boss/x-4881665) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  62. 2014-07-28 16:52:07     +cryptocobain   ^ i actually agree that it's not an exchanges responsibility
  63. 2014-07-28 16:52:10     ▬▬▶       abc123 (180c47c7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.24.12.71.199) has joined #bittrex
  64. 2014-07-28 16:52:31     +cryptocobain   but if there is a method of creating a platform with enhanced confidence in coin options, that is a better exchange, a better trading platform
  65. 2014-07-28 16:52:34     +Wuher  I think the most direct, feasible course of action is to have a trusted 3rd party that hosts block explorers for every coin. The first step to do that, IMO, is to create a universal block explorer that operates on RPC calls
  66. 2014-07-28 16:52:51     +CryptoAsian    i don't think it's the exchanges either, they are doing their part by just listing the coins.  E-Trade doesn't take responsibility for companies that go straight scam and neither should Trex
  67. 2014-07-28 16:52:51     +cryptocobain   ^ you can cheat even that, though
  68. 2014-07-28 16:52:57     +kassado        block explorer lets you look back at the problem.. after the fact
  69. 2014-07-28 16:53:00     +kassado        :/
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  71. 2014-07-28 16:53:07     +Wuher  kassado: It helps discover some types of problems
  72. 2014-07-28 16:53:14     @bittrex-richie so heres the thing guys
  73. 2014-07-28 16:53:18     @bittrex-richie we can't solve this problem
  74. 2014-07-28 16:53:23     @bittrex-richie al we can do is start raising the bar
  75. 2014-07-28 16:53:27     +kassado        example?
  76. 2014-07-28 16:53:42     @bittrex-richie we put a star next to coins taht the community has "vetted"
  77. 2014-07-28 16:53:45     +Wuher  Also, exchanges can implement a basic safeguard - to raise the bar, as richie says. If you have a block explorer, you can track transactions on the blockchain and keep a tally versus the claimed amount, and what's on deposit or incoming into the exchanges.
  78. 2014-07-28 16:54:05     @bittrex-richie we are looking at things we can add
  79. 2014-07-28 16:54:10     @bittrex-richie tahts on us..
  80. 2014-07-28 16:54:13     +Wuher  You can detect discrepancies and disable coins automatically, the same way you do for blockchain problems/etc.
  81. 2014-07-28 16:54:25     +cryptocobain   bittrex-richie: when you update a coin, do you compile from source or DL compile binary?
  82. 2014-07-28 16:54:28     @bittrex-richie yup.. rami and i are working on some ideas..
  83. 2014-07-28 16:54:33     ▬▬▶       shovel_boss (~shovel_bo@unaffiliated/shovel-boss/x-4881665) has joined #bittrex
  84. 2014-07-28 16:54:34     @bittrex-richie we recompile everythting
  85. 2014-07-28 16:54:38     @bittrex-richie and verify diffs when we can
  86. 2014-07-28 16:54:49     +axion  bittrex-richie: if we had a set of guidelines for a coin to follow, we could give them the incentive of a guaranteed longer listing, etc...if not only to add coins that follow these rules
  87. 2014-07-28 16:54:50     ▬▬▶       jstefanop (~jstefanop@cpe-72-225-188-228.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #bittrex
  88. 2014-07-28 16:54:55     ▬▬▶       johndaugherty (44a98e9b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.169.142.155) has joined #bittrex
  89. 2014-07-28 16:55:11     @bittrex-richie axion: heres the thing though... we rarely list a coin that the pools haven't vetted
  90. 2014-07-28 16:55:13     +Wuher  Guaranteed listing for coins that meet certain criteria may be a good way to do
  91. 2014-07-28 16:55:17     @bittrex-rami   Not to monkey wrench the discussion, but the way this is regulated in the real world is accountability.  You would need photo ID, a credit rating, etc. to open an account or create a coin.  If you scam, the FBI show's up at your door.  I think that would kill our current business model thou.  I think casing a technical solution to this is a losing game.
  92. 2014-07-28 16:55:30     ▬▬▶       veryyy (6c3d3744@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.108.61.55.68) has joined #bittrex
  93. 2014-07-28 16:55:35     @bittrex-rami   casing = chasing
  94. 2014-07-28 16:55:40     +CryptoAsian    I like the star or the asterisk.  I am currently in contact with both QTL and GDN devs for my first POD analysis if you are interested in using that also
  95. 2014-07-28 16:55:41     +cryptocobain   ok. im told that USBcoin's github wasnt the same as the compiled binary (where the extra coins were) so bit confused how you were on the same fork
  96. 2014-07-28 16:55:44     +cryptocobain   but anyway, thats another discussion
  97. 2014-07-28 16:55:51     +cryptocobain   i have a solution, but you might not like it
  98. 2014-07-28 16:55:58     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
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  100. 2014-07-28 16:56:27     @bittrex-richie lets hear it ;)
  101. 2014-07-28 16:56:44     +eth2   any suggestion is good to hear ;p
  102. 2014-07-28 16:57:22     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  103. 2014-07-28 16:57:44     +cryptocobain   You can introduce a Scam Bounty, the same way you have Bug Bounties. Just some small, pocket change kind of stuff (0.1-0.25btc depending on severity?). But if a technical scam is spotted in a coin's code that you currently have listed, and it is disclosed in private to an email address that you guys read on priority, the first person to spot it receives the
  104. 2014-07-28 16:57:44     +cryptocobain   bounty and the coin is frozen.
  105. 2014-07-28 16:57:54     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  106. 2014-07-28 16:58:00     @bittrex-richie happy to do that...
  107. 2014-07-28 16:58:03     +cryptocobain   It's not perfect, but I think it's a good step one to get people reading code of all coins from the community.
  108. 2014-07-28 16:58:13     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  109. 2014-07-28 16:58:15     ▬▬▶       dibdab (~dibdab@unaffiliated/dibdab) has joined #bittrex
  110. 2014-07-28 16:58:17     @bittrex-richie i'm sure i can get the pools to chip in there too ;)
  111. 2014-07-28 16:58:21     @bittrex-rami   paid only if its spotted before the dev dumps?
  112. 2014-07-28 16:58:24     @bittrex-ryan   well, there are ways around that, we already saw it happen with one of the recent coins.  A guy saw it was a scam, emailed the scammer and blackmailed him to give hime 20% of the scam
  113. 2014-07-28 16:58:27     +cryptocobain   Yes, of course
  114. 2014-07-28 16:58:31     @bittrex-rami   one problem
  115. 2014-07-28 16:58:32     ▬▬▶       BLKFeeder|42110 (4db818ca@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.77.184.24.202) has joined #bittrex
  116. 2014-07-28 16:58:39     @bittrex-ryan   the scammer can pay more
  117. 2014-07-28 16:58:44     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  118. 2014-07-28 16:58:48     @bittrex-richie thats fine.. i think its a good idea
  119. 2014-07-28 16:58:54     @bittrex-richie lets not try to solve the problem.
  120. 2014-07-28 16:58:58     @bittrex-richie i want to repeat that.
  121. 2014-07-28 16:59:01     @bittrex-rami   it is a good idea
  122. 2014-07-28 16:59:03     @bittrex-richie we CANNOT solve this problem
  123. 2014-07-28 16:59:05     @bittrex-richie lets raise the bar..
  124. 2014-07-28 16:59:05     +cryptocobain   Scammer could do, if only one person has spotted it, and contacted them first, and they admit it
  125. 2014-07-28 16:59:10     @bittrex-rami   but the case of USB is interesting, the coin has zero value
  126. 2014-07-28 16:59:11     +CryptoAsian    That is one reason why I am not looking for revenue for POD analysis.  I don't want people to think devs can pay me off
  127. 2014-07-28 16:59:20     ▬▬▶       triplef (~triplef@unaffiliated/triplef) has joined #bittrex
  128. 2014-07-28 16:59:21     ◀▬▬       RS^r (~something@c-71-230-10-145.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  129. 2014-07-28 16:59:27     @bittrex-rami   it was launch comprimised
  130. 2014-07-28 16:59:29     +Wuher  I think the biggest way to incentivize people to act against the problem is to allow shorting
  131. 2014-07-28 16:59:36     @bittrex-richie oh god
  132. 2014-07-28 16:59:37     @bittrex-rami   people who touch it, dump or no dump have already been burned
  133. 2014-07-28 16:59:42     @bittrex-richie bad wuher
  134. 2014-07-28 16:59:48     +cryptocobain   shorting is impossible in markets with such large slippage and poor liquidity
  135. 2014-07-28 16:59:54     @bittrex-rami   +1
  136. 2014-07-28 16:59:58     +ziddey be careful going down this path. next scam will bring way more heat your way
  137. 2014-07-28 17:00:01     +Wuher  You'll get a lot more people interested in finding bad code
  138. 2014-07-28 17:00:10     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  139. 2014-07-28 17:00:19     @bittrex-rami   isn't this the whole code audit thing just outsourced?
  140. 2014-07-28 17:00:22     ℹ     TrollishTroll is now known as kernels10
  141. 2014-07-28 17:00:26     ▬▬▶       xolokram (~q@port-92-206-82-116.dynamic.qsc.de) has joined #bittrex
  142. 2014-07-28 17:00:34     +cryptocobain   yes, scam bounties is outsourcing SUCCESSFUL scam-code audits to the community
  143. 2014-07-28 17:00:46     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  144. 2014-07-28 17:00:48     ▬▬▶       randallc (423790ba@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.66.55.144.186) has joined #bittrex
  145. 2014-07-28 17:00:52     @bittrex-richie im ok witht hat idea
  146. 2014-07-28 17:01:00     +cryptocobain   i reckon we have a bunch of 16-19 year old programmers in crypto that the odd .2 btc is a lot of money to
  147. 2014-07-28 17:01:01     @bittrex-rami   I am too, I just question its effectiveness
  148. 2014-07-28 17:01:02     @bittrex-richie we can set up a fund and publish the address
  149. 2014-07-28 17:01:02     ◀▬▬       N2NShadow (~CryptoKil@pool-96-243-108-166.sctnpa.east.verizon.net) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  150. 2014-07-28 17:01:06     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  151. 2014-07-28 17:01:10     @bittrex-rami   we should do it, no question
  152. 2014-07-28 17:01:12     +Wuher  cryptocobain: I think the scam bounty idea is good, and I've suggested it before - but the amounts involve wouldn't make it worth people's time, and someone has to fund it
  153. 2014-07-28 17:01:12     @bittrex-richie rami, if it stops something it'll be effective
  154. 2014-07-28 17:01:13     +cryptocobain   and will take 1 hour to check over every new coin add
  155. 2014-07-28 17:01:15     @bittrex-rami   but its not going to solve the problem
  156. 2014-07-28 17:01:16     @bittrex-richie if it doesnt' no loss
  157. 2014-07-28 17:01:20     ▬▬▶       cryptocruise (uid38236@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wgqgbxoohmpxqkhl) has joined #bittrex
  158. 2014-07-28 17:01:24     @bittrex-rami   agreed
  159. 2014-07-28 17:01:35     +cryptocobain   rami, i think there is 100% ideal solution
  160. 2014-07-28 17:01:37     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  161. 2014-07-28 17:01:38     +Wuher  It doesn't take 1 hour to check over a coin's source
  162. 2014-07-28 17:01:46     +cryptocobain   Wuher, it does to find some
  163. 2014-07-28 17:01:49     @bittrex-richie i have a script i run across all coins we launch
  164. 2014-07-28 17:01:52     ▬▬▶       Fraxinus (4e16a772@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.22.167.114) has joined #bittrex
  165. 2014-07-28 17:01:54     @bittrex-richie but i'm looking for dafuq
  166. 2014-07-28 17:01:54     ▬▬▶       dognip (~dognip@static-71-255-114-26.cncdnh.fast03.myfairpoint.net) has joined #bittrex
  167. 2014-07-28 17:01:59     @bittrex-rami   I knew what the malicious code was doing this morning, and it took me an hour to find it
  168. 2014-07-28 17:02:00     +cryptocobain   bitshift AND header ops
  169. 2014-07-28 17:02:03     +cryptocobain   and you could fuck up some code
  170. 2014-07-28 17:02:04     +Wuher  And scams will inevitably become more elaborate with time as soon as detection efforts step up
  171. 2014-07-28 17:02:05     @bittrex-richie im not looking for the 1921 wasys to hide a mine
  172. 2014-07-28 17:02:09     @bittrex-ryan   how long was rami looking at usb code this morning to find the issue?  It can take a lot of time depending on how they coded it
  173. 2014-07-28 17:02:25     ◀▬▬       coinictus (25b735ae@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.183.53.174) has left #bittrex
  174. 2014-07-28 17:02:30     +kassado        status update on usbcoin
  175. 2014-07-28 17:02:34     +cryptocobain   Wuher, i think thats okay. increase the difficulty and expertise required to produce a scam is better than making it a copy/paste/cross-fingers job
  176. 2014-07-28 17:02:35     +kassado        i'm having someone test the updated code now
  177. 2014-07-28 17:02:36     @bittrex-rami   remember I knew exactly what I was looking for
  178. 2014-07-28 17:02:38     @bittrex-rami   and it took an hour
  179. 2014-07-28 17:02:47     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  180. 2014-07-28 17:02:58     +Wuher  Now.. let's pretend rami is a 16 year old working for 0.2 btc bounties - how long would it take?
  181. 2014-07-28 17:03:14     ▬▬▶       OliverHardy (~GrupoMDT@74.Red-79-148-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #bittrex
  182. 2014-07-28 17:03:19     @bittrex-richie it gives potential security people a chance to make a name forthemseves
  183. 2014-07-28 17:03:25     @bittrex-richie taht is worth more than the bounty we pay
  184. 2014-07-28 17:03:29     @bittrex-richie if i was starting out, id do it
  185. 2014-07-28 17:03:29     ℹ     Forex is now known as Fun
  186. 2014-07-28 17:03:29     +Wuher  Sure, I agree bounties are a good thing.
  187. 2014-07-28 17:03:40     ℹ     Fun is now known as Forex
  188. 2014-07-28 17:03:41     +axion  best idea i heard all day
  189. 2014-07-28 17:03:42     +kassado        fixing usb coin has had a dozen people message me for work
  190. 2014-07-28 17:03:46     +kassado        so I believe it
  191. 2014-07-28 17:03:47     @bittrex-ryan   one other thing, this would also require people to know what it is being listed before its listed.  Are we offering this to any coin?  People will start making their own coins and reporting their own scams for money
  192. 2014-07-28 17:03:50     +cryptocobain   thanks axion :)
  193. 2014-07-28 17:04:03     +cryptocobain   bittrex-ryan: nope, not necessarily
  194. 2014-07-28 17:04:04     @bittrex-richie i think its for all coins we've listed
  195. 2014-07-28 17:04:10     +cryptocobain   because you can change the code into a scam AFTERWARDS, at any point
  196. 2014-07-28 17:04:11     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  197. 2014-07-28 17:04:13     +cryptocobain   it can be an ongoing thing
  198. 2014-07-28 17:04:13     @bittrex-richie or poosls are mining
  199. 2014-07-28 17:04:14     ▬▬▶       bako (57ce2cb5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.87.206.44.181) has joined #bittrex
  200. 2014-07-28 17:04:22     ◀▬▬       Forex (c063a686@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.99.166.134) has left #bittrex
  201. 2014-07-28 17:04:23     ▬▬▶       BiTMiND (~BiTMiND@unaffiliated/bitmind) has joined #bittrex
  202. 2014-07-28 17:04:25     +merx   I'm late to the convo
  203. 2014-07-28 17:04:28     +merx   but I'll contribute to bounties
  204. 2014-07-28 17:04:30     @bittrex-ryan   but if we list the coin and it gets a ton of volume and takes 3 hours to find scam it could alerady be over
  205. 2014-07-28 17:04:31     ▬▬▶       Forex (c063a686@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.99.166.134) has joined #bittrex
  206. 2014-07-28 17:04:32     +kassado        I set usbcoin to roll back to block 6672
  207. 2014-07-28 17:04:41     @bittrex-richie please tell me your kidding
  208. 2014-07-28 17:04:45     @bittrex-richie pls dont' do that kassado
  209. 2014-07-28 17:04:47     +kassado        lol
  210. 2014-07-28 17:04:52     +kassado        do you want me to let it play out
  211. 2014-07-28 17:04:56     ▬▬▶       Browsie (uid37467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lzdjxvwedhdukztv) has joined #bittrex
  212. 2014-07-28 17:05:01     +kassado        even though the supply is crazy?
  213. 2014-07-28 17:05:05     ▬▬▶       BitcoinDad (uid39135@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aedogyarydsmyqhj) has joined #bittrex
  214. 2014-07-28 17:05:14     @bittrex-richie you can't roll back and leave us in any usable state.. you know that.
  215. 2014-07-28 17:05:24     +binaryclock    kassado isn't the usbcoin dev
  216. 2014-07-28 17:05:24     +Wuher  I would cut off new coins from being created, and let it go as is kassado
  217. 2014-07-28 17:05:26     +binaryclock    :p
  218. 2014-07-28 17:05:30     @bittrex-richie if you fork from the last block we processed.. thats fine..
  219. 2014-07-28 17:05:38     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  220. 2014-07-28 17:05:39     ▬▬▶       Crypto_Nite (17189419@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.24.148.25) has joined #bittrex
  221. 2014-07-28 17:05:42     +kassado        which block did you process
  222. 2014-07-28 17:05:45     +kassado        i'll set it to that
  223. 2014-07-28 17:05:50     ▬▬▶       janko33 (b2fd96e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.253.150.226) has joined #bittrex
  224. 2014-07-28 17:05:54     +binaryclock    Ocminer and I are looking over the BitTor code, newly launched.  We haven't found any issues so far
  225. 2014-07-28 17:05:55     ▬▬▶       XBladeX (~kvirc@89-69-55-33.dynamic.chello.pl) has joined #bittrex
  226. 2014-07-28 17:05:58     +kassado        but the supply is going to be like 55 mil or more
  227. 2014-07-28 17:06:01     +binaryclock    kassado, want to have a look at bittor as well?
  228. 2014-07-28 17:06:04     +kassado        lol have fun with that
  229. 2014-07-28 17:06:05     @bittrex-richie kassado:  pleaes hold off on that.. till after this discussion
  230. 2014-07-28 17:06:08     +binaryclock    https://github.com/BitTorCrypto/BitTor
  231. 2014-07-28 17:06:08     +kassado        ok np
  232. 2014-07-28 17:06:15     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  233. 2014-07-28 17:06:17     @bittrex-richie i want to know what else we can do
  234. 2014-07-28 17:06:19     @bittrex-richie as a community
  235. 2014-07-28 17:06:21     @bittrex-richie not as an exchange.
  236. 2014-07-28 17:06:22     @bittrex-rami   why are we talking 0.2btc bounty?
  237. 2014-07-28 17:06:23     ▬▬▶       thisuser (~thisuser@unaffiliated/thisuser) has joined #bittrex
  238. 2014-07-28 17:06:27     +binaryclock    bittrex-richie, already happening
  239. 2014-07-28 17:06:31     @bittrex-rami   I'd happily have paid 3-5 btc to avoid this mess this morning
  240. 2014-07-28 17:06:32     ▬▬▶       SyllaBear (~SyllaBear@unaffiliated/syllabear) has joined #bittrex
  241. 2014-07-28 17:06:39     +binaryclock    bittrex-richie, ocminer and I are going over each coin launched now
  242. 2014-07-28 17:06:43     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  243. 2014-07-28 17:06:44     +binaryclock    with a fine comb
  244. 2014-07-28 17:06:48     +cryptocobain   bittrex-rami because then i make a coin, hide a fucking clever premine, then claim my own prize ;-)
  245. 2014-07-28 17:06:51     +binaryclock    usbcoin was really sneaky tho
  246. 2014-07-28 17:07:00     +binaryclock    kassado should help too
  247. 2014-07-28 17:07:03     @bittrex-richie ok... here's what we'll do
  248. 2014-07-28 17:07:06     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  249. 2014-07-28 17:07:07     @bittrex-richie i will add a special flag to coins
  250. 2014-07-28 17:07:11     @bittrex-rami   crytpocobain only if you got us to list it first
  251. 2014-07-28 17:07:23     +Wuher  bittrex-rami: he can add the scam later on
  252. 2014-07-28 17:07:23     ▬▬▶       cryptohall (1888666a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.24.136.102.106) has joined #bittrex
  253. 2014-07-28 17:07:24     @bittrex-richie and if something is vetted, we will put a mark next to it
  254. 2014-07-28 17:07:27     @bittrex-richie with who etted it
  255. 2014-07-28 17:07:28     +cryptocobain   yes, rami, but i could make it legit, wait for you to add it, and then add the scam
  256. 2014-07-28 17:07:29     +binaryclock    just if you see more than 20% of the coins transfered in x amount of time, freeze the market and have it alert you
  257. 2014-07-28 17:07:32     +kassado        interesting
  258. 2014-07-28 17:07:38     @bittrex-rami   fair enough
  259. 2014-07-28 17:07:42     +kassado        I would vet coins all day long if it helped advertise rubycoin :)
  260. 2014-07-28 17:07:43     +binaryclock    make VIPs on Bittrex
  261. 2014-07-28 17:07:47     +kassado        in between normal work I mean
  262. 2014-07-28 17:07:48     ◀▬▬       OliverHardy (~GrupoMDT@74.Red-79-148-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has quit (Quit: OliverHardy)
  263. 2014-07-28 17:07:49     +binaryclock    Kassado, ocminer, suchpool, me
  264. 2014-07-28 17:07:53     +Wuher  I think the biggest thing that can be done is block the sale of scammed coins
  265. 2014-07-28 17:07:54     @bittrex-richie binaryclock: we are already talking about heuristics detection on stuff
  266. 2014-07-28 17:07:55     +binaryclock    wuher
  267. 2014-07-28 17:08:03     +binaryclock    you should make us all VIPs to veto
  268. 2014-07-28 17:08:10     @bittrex-rami   but these scams cost us well over 10-20btc in terms of business impact.. on top of what our users get fleeced for
  269. 2014-07-28 17:08:13     @bittrex-richie it will most liekly set off more FPs than anything else..
  270. 2014-07-28 17:08:15     @bittrex-richie but whatever..
  271. 2014-07-28 17:08:15     +binaryclock    if someone abuses it, they lose their powers
  272. 2014-07-28 17:08:30     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  273. 2014-07-28 17:08:33     @bittrex-rami   random idea...
  274. 2014-07-28 17:08:36     +binaryclock    half the time we see this shit happening but we can't warn you
  275. 2014-07-28 17:08:37     @bittrex-rami   how about a github history requirement
  276. 2014-07-28 17:08:39     +Wuher  If the incentive to scam goes away (because you can't sell it), scams should be reduced
  277. 2014-07-28 17:08:43     +cryptocobain   i think VIPs will worsen insider trading claims
  278. 2014-07-28 17:08:45     @bittrex-rami   your code must declare what coin it was forked from
  279. 2014-07-28 17:08:48     +axion  bittrex-rami: as mentioned that can be spoofed
  280. 2014-07-28 17:08:50     +cryptocobain   i'm already apparently a crypto gangster with a crypto crew
  281. 2014-07-28 17:08:57     +Wuher  bittrex-rami: that's been suggested, and is a place to start certainly.
  282. 2014-07-28 17:08:59     +cryptocobain   if i became a VIP on bittrex that would only make that worse, i imagine
  283. 2014-07-28 17:09:01     ▬▬▶       hello69 (d523fbaf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.35.251.175) has joined #bittrex
  284. 2014-07-28 17:09:03     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  285. 2014-07-28 17:09:13     @bittrex-rami   I'm not saying we rely on github
  286. 2014-07-28 17:09:19     @bittrex-rami   due to its obvious shortcommings
  287. 2014-07-28 17:09:22     @bittrex-rami   but new rule
  288. 2014-07-28 17:09:25     +axion  bittrex-rami: instead i suggest being able to manually diff a coin against a specified forked codebase
  289. 2014-07-28 17:09:28     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  290. 2014-07-28 17:09:30     @bittrex-rami   if you want to be listed.. declare the code you forked, we'll start there
  291. 2014-07-28 17:09:33     @bittrex-rami   manually diff
  292. 2014-07-28 17:09:35     @bittrex-rami   and walk the changes
  293. 2014-07-28 17:09:40     ▬▬▶       N2NShadow (~CryptoKil@pool-96-243-111-124.sctnpa.east.verizon.net) has joined #bittrex
  294. 2014-07-28 17:09:42     @bittrex-rami   if you don't , you don't get listed
  295. 2014-07-28 17:09:47     @bittrex-rami   that makes the code review feasible
  296. 2014-07-28 17:09:53     @bittrex-rami   no base 'known good' diff
  297. 2014-07-28 17:09:55     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  298. 2014-07-28 17:09:55     @bittrex-rami   then fuck off
  299. 2014-07-28 17:10:00     @bittrex-richie ok guys....
  300. 2014-07-28 17:10:02     +cryptocobain   Rami, you can probably write a python script to work out what happens in the ProofOfWork Reward functions too
  301. 2014-07-28 17:10:04     +binaryclock    #1 rule should be: All listed coins MUST have a working block explorer
  302. 2014-07-28 17:10:05     @bittrex-richie this is getting off track..
  303. 2014-07-28 17:10:06     +Wuher  That's fine for your average clone.. do you want to be responsible for diffs of anything more than that though?
  304. 2014-07-28 17:10:13     ▬▬▶       Vizakenj_ (~Vizakenja@host-85-237-48-108.dsl.sura.ru) has joined #bittrex
  305. 2014-07-28 17:10:22     @bittrex-richie binaryclock: totally agree with that as well.
  306. 2014-07-28 17:10:23     +cryptocobain   to be honest you could probably write a python script to check all the 'basic' points of coin creation abuse
  307. 2014-07-28 17:10:35     @bittrex-rami   lets be honest Wuher.. most of these coins are just cut and paste
  308. 2014-07-28 17:10:36     +cryptocobain   binaryclock, cheating a block explorer is very easy though
  309. 2014-07-28 17:10:46     @bittrex-richie cryptocobain: you write taht script and ill run it
  310. 2014-07-28 17:10:48     +Wuher  binaryclock: I think we need a centralized, 3rd block explorer
  311. 2014-07-28 17:10:49     +binaryclock    cryptocobain, i just meant from the dev, we can make our own too
  312. 2014-07-28 17:10:52     +binaryclock    yes
  313. 2014-07-28 17:10:55     +ziddey that would be nice so you can easily diff it. if anything, without imposing mandates, you could add additional safeguards for coins that don't meet whatever criteria. for those coins, allow trading after x confirms, but lock both sides of the balance up for an additional y confirms
  314. 2014-07-28 17:11:09     +cryptocobain   im not writing the script, im rich, i have a hottub to be inside
  315. 2014-07-28 17:11:13     @bittrex-richie hehe.
  316. 2014-07-28 17:11:19     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  317. 2014-07-28 17:11:19     @bittrex-richie ok everyone
  318. 2014-07-28 17:11:20     ▬▬▶       theorangeace (uid39136@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kelexvepwlnfgltg) has joined #bittrex
  319. 2014-07-28 17:11:21     +cryptocobain   but its possible for a mid-term goal
  320. 2014-07-28 17:11:21     ◀▬▬       abc123 (180c47c7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.24.12.71.199) has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
  321. 2014-07-28 17:11:21     +ziddey that would allow you to keep a more reasonable confirm for deposits, but safeguard against doublespends
  322. 2014-07-28 17:11:23     @bittrex-richie please shut it downfor one second.
  323. 2014-07-28 17:11:25     @bittrex-rami   ok I'm hearing 3 good suggestions  1) scam bounty, 2) required 3rd part 'trusted' explorer host 3) declared source that was forked for easy diffs
  324. 2014-07-28 17:11:25     ▬▬▶       miaoux (~miaoux@host86-134-173-31.range86-134.btcentralplus.com) has joined #bittrex
  325. 2014-07-28 17:11:53     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  326. 2014-07-28 17:12:01     +binaryclock    look, no matter how you like or or not, we need to have people designated to shut down the markets
  327. 2014-07-28 17:12:04     @bittrex-richie 1) Scam bounty, consider it done... we will work with the pools and other exchanges to pitch in.....
  328. 2014-07-28 17:12:05     +binaryclock    when youg uys are sleeping
  329. 2014-07-28 17:12:11     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  330. 2014-07-28 17:12:16     +Wuher  bittrex-rami: And detection of scammed coins -- both as part of the 3rd party block explorer deal, and on the exchange side
  331. 2014-07-28 17:12:20     +binaryclock    or, have massive detection code
  332. 2014-07-28 17:12:23     ◀▬▬       Vizakenjack (~Vizakenja@host-85-237-48-108.dsl.sura.ru) has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  333. 2014-07-28 17:12:29     ▬▬▶       Dave1983 (b537226d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.181.55.34.109) has joined #bittrex
  334. 2014-07-28 17:12:38     @bittrex-rami   I'm open to giving TRUSTed members a kill switch
  335. 2014-07-28 17:12:40     ▬▬▶       BlkHandAfricanos (3e0c5863@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.12.88.99) has joined #bittrex
  336. 2014-07-28 17:12:41     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  337. 2014-07-28 17:12:43     +axion  I am most always here. I could help mod anytime
  338. 2014-07-28 17:12:44     +kassado        if two or more "helpers" click the pause market button on a coin, it pauses it and sends you an alert
  339. 2014-07-28 17:12:50     +merx   oo
  340. 2014-07-28 17:12:52     +merx   a killswitch
  341. 2014-07-28 17:12:53     @bittrex-rami   but that's an awfully big stick
  342. 2014-07-28 17:13:00     +kassado        don't let just one person do it
  343. 2014-07-28 17:13:01     @bittrex-rami   gives me the creeps just thinkning about it
  344. 2014-07-28 17:13:02     +cryptocobain   kassado, i think it would need to be 3-5
  345. 2014-07-28 17:13:03     ▬▬▶       Junkratt-Work (~IceChat9@208.146.43.6) has joined #bittrex
  346. 2014-07-28 17:13:08     ◀▬▬       gpools (~gpools@113.162.145.79) has left #bittrex
  347. 2014-07-28 17:13:13     ▬▬▶       netshaper (uid39137@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iytkkoajyjkqsdpg) has joined #bittrex
  348. 2014-07-28 17:13:19     +binaryclock    you could code something in your code that if the total coins exceed the maximum value, then disable the wallet
  349. 2014-07-28 17:13:28     +merx   i'm sure there's some trusted peeps in here who are typically on.. make it like a 2-3 required or something to actually kill it
  350. 2014-07-28 17:13:32     ▬▬▶       TheDogeOfWallSt (~thedogeof@pool-173-68-93-19.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #bittrex
  351. 2014-07-28 17:13:36     +binaryclock    it's a big sitck, but would merx, or myself or wuher abuse it?
  352. 2014-07-28 17:13:38     @bittrex-richie there is no way to figure out maximum value...
  353. 2014-07-28 17:13:42     +cryptocobain   a 'trusted' block explorer authority could even be a community site eg. trustedexplorer.com and it adds/audits the blockexplorer validity for a small fee, since block explorers are easily cheated (changing COIN value, or etc)
  354. 2014-07-28 17:13:42     +binaryclock    no, because that would fuck our reps
  355. 2014-07-28 17:13:47     @bittrex-richie ok stop.... w are designing solutions now..
  356. 2014-07-28 17:13:50     ▬▬▶       CyBrChRsT (~CyBrChRsT@75-135-25-228.dhcp.krny.ne.charter.com) has joined #bittrex
  357. 2014-07-28 17:13:50     @bittrex-richie can we leave that for later..
  358. 2014-07-28 17:13:59     @bittrex-richie lets focus on what the high level goals are...
  359. 2014-07-28 17:14:04     @bittrex-richie i'm going to state what we think we have
  360. 2014-07-28 17:14:06     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  361. 2014-07-28 17:14:10     @bittrex-richie 1) Scam Bounty
  362. 2014-07-28 17:14:16     ◀▬▬       IanCT (60e78e38@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.231.142.56) has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  363. 2014-07-28 17:14:31     ◀▬▬       shovel_boss (~shovel_bo@unaffiliated/shovel-boss/x-4881665) has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  364. 2014-07-28 17:14:33     @bittrex-richie 2) Marking "vetted" coins... people will have to evaluate the person vettgin it.
  365. 2014-07-28 17:14:42     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  366. 2014-07-28 17:15:04     +cryptocobain   Richie, my issue with #2 is that if I vet a coin, and it's all good, and then afterwards someone changes the coin -- I get blamed. "cobain said it was okay!"
  367. 2014-07-28 17:15:05     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  368. 2014-07-28 17:15:05     @bittrex-richie 3) Additional security checks - we are already woriking on things, but we are not going to enuermate it cause attackers will just know what to code around
  369. 2014-07-28 17:15:10     ◀▬▬       apmapm12|Work (c6a44449@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.198.164.68.73) has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
  370. 2014-07-28 17:15:13     +Wuher  bittrex-richie: Force coins to declare their total and daily maximum coin counts.. then it just takes a little math based on block rewards :)
  371. 2014-07-28 17:15:14     @bittrex-richie yes .. that is always a risk..
  372. 2014-07-28 17:15:31     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  373. 2014-07-28 17:15:34     ▬▬▶       apmapm12|Work (c6a44449@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.198.164.68.73) has joined #bittrex
  374. 2014-07-28 17:15:34     +binaryclock    there is a bit of a problem tho
  375. 2014-07-28 17:15:38     @bittrex-richie 4) Expose a kill switch to partners
  376. 2014-07-28 17:15:44     +binaryclock    comes with random forced updates from dev
  377. 2014-07-28 17:15:58     +binaryclock    devs should be forced to give 24 hours notice to github updates too
  378. 2014-07-28 17:16:07     @bittrex-richie every solution we come up with has a counteraction
  379. 2014-07-28 17:16:08     +binaryclock    otherwise they can sneak shit in
  380. 2014-07-28 17:16:28     +kassado        I think they just want to make it harder
  381. 2014-07-28 17:16:31     +kassado        nothing will "fix" it
  382. 2014-07-28 17:16:33     +CryptoAsian    there is no perfect solution, only checkpoints to better verify
  383. 2014-07-28 17:16:38     +merx   thats why a single solution isnt the answer, but a combination should help
  384. 2014-07-28 17:16:41     @bittrex-richie yes..
  385. 2014-07-28 17:16:42     +Wuher  bittrex-richie: Add a requirement on top of "must have block explorer" -- which is "must disclose coin count/schedule". If you detect a discrepancy, shut down the market until its resolved
  386. 2014-07-28 17:16:44     +cryptocobain   richie, when you update do you take a market offline?
  387. 2014-07-28 17:16:56     @bittrex-richie cryptocobain, very rarely
  388. 2014-07-28 17:16:57     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Client Quit)
  389. 2014-07-28 17:17:08     +merx   just remove the 'vetted by' on updates
  390. 2014-07-28 17:17:13     +ziddey well then you have the issue of emergency hardforks. it could be planned all along so they could sneak something in. in such a scenario, other exchanges may be willing to update immediately and people will be angry that you're imposing a 24h lockdown for review
  391. 2014-07-28 17:17:23     @bittrex-richie yup..
  392. 2014-07-28 17:17:33     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  393. 2014-07-28 17:17:37     +binaryclock    if there is a hardfork, unplanned, then markets and pools should just go down
  394. 2014-07-28 17:17:42     @bittrex-richie every action has a reaction.
  395. 2014-07-28 17:17:43     +binaryclock    end of story, not miners faults
  396. 2014-07-28 17:17:45     +cryptocobain   richie, it might be possible when 'updating' to diff the old reward function, and other 'key' parts of the codebase against the previous srcc
  397. 2014-07-28 17:17:50     +Wuher  You could force coins to pay for unplanned updates
  398. 2014-07-28 17:17:51     ◀▬▬       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  399. 2014-07-28 17:18:01     +binaryclock    These devs are playing on the fact that everything is a rush
  400. 2014-07-28 17:18:03     @bittrex-richie cryptocobain: thats usually easier cause we can see the diffs in github
  401. 2014-07-28 17:18:19     +ziddey heh id gladly pay 5btc for an unplanned update if it meant i could scam 200btc
  402. 2014-07-28 17:18:22     ▬▬▶       cryptobum (~cryptobum@90.198.250.239) has joined #bittrex
  403. 2014-07-28 17:18:34     +Wuher  ziddey: well, it would still have to be reviewed, you would just be buying a more immediate review
  404. 2014-07-28 17:18:37     @bittrex-richie ok.. guys
  405. 2014-07-28 17:18:47     @bittrex-richie based on this discussion , i think we have 4 action items
  406. 2014-07-28 17:18:56     @bittrex-richie i want to start a thread on BCT with these 4 items
  407. 2014-07-28 17:19:04     ◀▬▬       N2NShadow (~CryptoKil@pool-96-243-111-124.sctnpa.east.verizon.net) has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  408. 2014-07-28 17:19:09     @bittrex-richie and have you guys back up the rationale behind it..
  409. 2014-07-28 17:19:18     @bittrex-richie peolpe need to learn that we cant just "code review" everythnig
  410. 2014-07-28 17:19:27     +binaryclock    but we are
  411. 2014-07-28 17:19:29     +binaryclock    dw
  412. 2014-07-28 17:19:32     +cryptocobain   someone should post this log
  413. 2014-07-28 17:19:38     +axion  i'm on it
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