Shadow Tag Conversation

+Hack: i think no one is actually good at xy
+Hack: because the metagame
+Hack: there is something wrong with it
Piexplode: I know what you mean
Piexplode: and no obvious solution
Piexplode: still I guess the hyper anti-ban ethos of ubers stops us doing anything rash
Piexplode: yeah when I listed those names I meant the best at XY but ugh I was
Piexplode: talking with shrang earlier on IRC
Piexplode: he was saying about
Piexplode: too much effort to write a huge post about anti-shadow tag cluase
Piexplode: I think
Piexplode: I understand all his viewpoints
Piexplode: and I don't disagree with them
Piexplode: I think I just agree to disagree on his stance on banning them
Piexplode: I can't quite say what is wrong with gar I just
Piexplode: know it's not right
Piexplode: it does affect teambuilding in unpleasant ways
Piexplode: and battling
Piexplode: I remember I think when shrang said about if you had
Piexplode: something that was totally OP then
Piexplode: everyone would use it so it wouldn't be banned or something akin to that and
Piexplode: I mean he's kind of right if we had a mon with
Piexplode: 255 in everything
Piexplode: great movepool and typing
Piexplode: only really being beatable with itself
Piexplode: for example
Piexplode: then everyone would use it and
Piexplode: in that situation he's probaly more or less right but
Piexplode: I mean it's just
Piexplode: gar is just diffferent
+Hack: if shrang gets in the debate
+Hack: ill sure make haste
+Hack: and get in it too
Piexplode: I know
+Hack: there is no way some irrelevant players
+Hack: are stopping us
+Hack: from making the only choice that is right
Piexplode: yeah I know what you mean
Piexplode: I wasn't sure what your stance on it would be though cos
+Hack: but people like hugendugen, shrang
+Hack: they can't do jack here
+Hack: they don't have what it takes
+Hack: they don't know the meta
+Hack: me, dice, mm2 among others
Piexplode: I mean I understand how much you hate gar, but I know you hate geoxern in similar measure, and I know that you have a good understanding of the ethos of this
+Hack: will just walk straight over them if they even try
Piexplode: yes but also hugen is kinda in charge of the whole thing even if he is clueless
+Hack: my stance is very simple
Piexplode: and tbf dice is kinda outdated in XY
Piexplode: steel was saying about him making a comment about scizor beating xern ekiller and defogging
Piexplode: and u could see clearly from that that he's not really up to date with the metagame properly
+Hack: it can be 2 of those
+Hack: not 3 at once
Piexplode: absolutely
+Hack: and that's what i think he meant
Piexplode: and I know I'm paraphrasing hell of a lot yeah that's the issue
+Hack: so he is not outdated
Piexplode: I haven't a clue where this was
+Hack: dice is an excellet player
Piexplode: so I can't realy comment properly
+Hack: anyway
+Hack: stance is simple
+Hack: metagame changes from bw to xy are three
+Hack: we got
+Hack: geomancy xern
+Hack: shadow tag gengar
+Hack: defog arceus
+Hack: those are the biggest differences
Piexplode: those are the biggest
Piexplode: yeah
+Hack: ok
Piexplode: anything else can still be big but ultimately secondary stuff like
+Hack: geomancy xerneas is powerful, i'd even say too powerful
Piexplode: no soul dew
+Hack: but is it actually uncompetitive
+Hack: ?
+Hack: if this was OU
Piexplode: that's the question
+Hack: and you were to suspect xerneas
+Hack: could you ban it?
+Hack: yes of course
+Hack: but why
Piexplode: yes and of course this is assuming OU power levels
+Hack: not because it's uncompetitve
+Hack: it's just bloody good
+Hack: no i'm assuming
+Hack: if ubers was oou
Piexplode: oh okay
+Hack: anyway you would ban xern most likely
Piexplode: equivalent I guess
+Hack: because it's a bloody good sweepr
Piexplode: yeah agreed
Piexplode: but does that mean you'd ban it in ubers
Piexplode: I'm sure that if this were
+Hack: no
Piexplode: the case throughout the generations
+Hack: thats the point
Piexplode: and you had ubers being the ou
+Hack: that does mean it's not bannable in ubers
Piexplode: wouldn't a case for kyogre
+Hack: because i can tolerate
Piexplode: be put forward for some point
+Hack: a bloody good sweepers
+Hack: *s
+Hack: -s
+Hack: okay let's now look at shadow tag
Piexplode: so are we saying that
Piexplode: you're not pro-ban of geoxern in some form or another
Piexplode: just before we move on
Piexplode: within the context of the current ubers metagame
+Hack: i am not for banning it
+Hack: because that is against what ubers stands for
+Hack: but
+Hack: shadow tag then
+Hack: the whole nature of it
+Hack: is different
Piexplode: agreed
+Hack: you aren't using
+Hack: something that is absurdly powerful
+Hack: something that can sweep an entire team
Piexplode: although even without shadow tag its power is very good
+Hack: but shadow tag does something that is beyond me in mons
+Hack: because mons is about one thing
+Hack: switching
+Hack: when we say skill in this game
+Hack: it's switching
+Hack: that is central
Piexplode: and move selection
+Hack: everything else in battle
+Hack: is superficial
+Hack: not even
Piexplode: as well as teambuilding but I guess that's a different area
+Hack: move selection
+Hack: comes close to the impact
+Hack: switching has
+Hack: this is
+Hack: the skill in pokemon
Piexplode: move selection and switching can be 2 sides of the same coin at times
+Hack: what shadow tag does is that it takes the skill aka the competitive part out of this game
+Hack: and erases it
+Hack: so the question to be asked is
Piexplode: in some ways I agree
+Hack: are the shadow tag mons powerful enough
Piexplode: we all know about the wynaut ban in OU back in the day
+Hack: to actually erase the skill in this game
+Hack: and i believe they are this time
+Hack: 1- gengar is extremely powerful
+Hack: it has taunt+dbond and good speed
+Hack: it has a great movepool
Piexplode: great power too
+Hack: it can be made to take out almost any check to any sweeper
Piexplode: and not nothing in terms of bulk either
Piexplode: within limits but certainly a lot of truth in it
+Hack: gengar is of course one of the reasons shadow tag got buffed
+Hack: because it is objectively seen
+Hack: the best stag mon
Piexplode: and xerneas the second best stag mon :P
Piexplode: note the wordplay
Piexplode: but anyways
+Hack: well
+Hack: then there is also
+Hack: gothitelle
Piexplode: yeah
+Hack: and while gengar is
+Hack: the most consistent stag mon
+Hack: gothitelle
+Hack: is the most broken one
+Hack: because of a metagame change
+Hack: that happened
+Hack: defog
+Hack: arceus
Piexplode: indeed
+Hack: makes gothitelle
+Hack: a king vs
+Hack: any stall or balance
+Hack: it will
+Hack: remove
+Hack: a key member
+Hack: to a core
+Hack: it will also be very shit
+Hack: against HO
Piexplode: and the trick room variant is not useless versus offense
Piexplode: but near to
+Hack: or teams that have a defoger that gothitelle can't take out
+Hack: so
+Hack: why is it broken if it's so inconsistent
+Hack: well the tricky part is
+Hack: it's just its inconsistency vs different playstyles
Piexplode: either way it does make the tier more matchup based
+Hack: that makes it broken
+Hack: or the ability with it broken
+Hack: because against some match ups
+Hack: you are going to win
+Hack: without any skill at all
+Hack: and you can build that team to cover goth weaknesses anyway so
+Hack: it might not be that bad to use it anyway
Piexplode: agreed
+Hack: so you are removing a central element of competitve mons
+Hack: very easily
+Hack: the abusers of stag fit great in the meta
+Hack: because of the other changes namely
+Hack: 1. better sweepers
+Hack: 2. defog arceus
Piexplode: it does beg a few different things though, for example why does not every team run shadow tag? And should we allow diversity of playtsyles?
+Hack: 3. more mons=more match up
+Hack: there isn't a very simple answer to why every team doesn't run shadow tag
Piexplode: agreed but it doesn't stop it being a question worth asking
+Hack: yeah maybe the answer is that people underestimate the power of it somehow
Piexplode: because from a theoretical standpoint there is some sense at least at a first glance in the arguement that if one pokemon or one element of a couple of pokemon is OP
+Hack: it is also a thing for the tour scene, not ladder play
Piexplode: then surely they would always be used with almost absolute certainty
+Hack: well as i said
+Hack: shadow tag and especially gothitelle
+Hack: are inconsistent
+Hack: not every player wants to run this inconsistency
+Hack: all the time
Piexplode: I would say gar is more consistent though since it does function as a great revenge killer and isn't set up bait for the worst HO sweepers that it has to be way of when on HO builds
Piexplode: the main inconsistency for gar is more of a mixture due to its inaccurate focus blast, the existance of pursuit and how that affects it, and also in some team matchups there
Piexplode: may be more or less that it is capable of trapping [but I think every 'viable' team within a certain sense will contain something that gengar can hamper and justify its moveslot for]
+Hack: well gengar can get in sticky 50-50s too
+Hack: but yeah basically
+Hack: you don't need to run it
+Hack: you don't need to run xerneas
+Hack: even if it is the best sweeper in the game
+Hack: mons is about teams
+Hack: and a combination of 6 pokemon
+Hack: the combination of these 6 are what wins games
Piexplode: indeed
+Hack: just because pokemon y is better than x
+Hack: doesn't mean you should never run x
+Hack: that's why
Piexplode: indeed just because kyogre is better than reshiram
+Hack: shadow tag isn't always used
+Hack: that's why xernas isn't always used
Piexplode: or idk umm not the best example but I get the point
+Hack: that's why blaziken wasn't always used in ou
+Hack: before it was banned
Piexplode: indeed
+Hack: so
Piexplode: or any other example pokemon
+Hack: so
+Hack: shadow tag fits the criteria for uncompetitiveness
+Hack: it restricts team building
+Hack: it amplifies match up factor
+Hack: it makes already good sweepers even better
+Hack: and most importantly
+Hack: it takes away the competitive aspect of this game
Piexplode: what I like is that what you've done is
Piexplode: well I saw shrang earlier today
Piexplode: define uncompetitive and then
Piexplode: effectively say
Piexplode: gar doesn't fit
Piexplode: and now you've explained
Piexplode: why he's incorrect
Piexplode: I think I'll pastebin this conversation because it's really been a strong one and probably
Piexplode: will help with the long paragraphs of shadow tag discussion
Piexplode: that with any luck should envelop
+Hack: and also
+Hack: lastly
+Hack: remember my 3 big changes from bw?
Piexplode: indeed
Piexplode: gar xern defog
+Hack: ok
+Hack: so remove gar
+Hack: would that make stall dominant
Piexplode: hmm
+Hack: would that make HO almost impossible to execute
Piexplode: hard to tell without playing but I think
+Hack: as gengar was a check to xenreas and ekiller
Piexplode: melee says about how good stall is
+Hack: well on first sight
Piexplode: because of in spite of these changes it stilll exists
+Hack: it looks like stall is going to centralize them etagame
+Hack: but
+Hack: why do i give a shit
+Hack: about HO dying
Piexplode: why do you give a shit about
+Hack: stall isn't uncompetitive
+Hack: just because
Piexplode: stall living?
Piexplode: :)
+Hack: an archetype
+Hack: worked in the past
+Hack: doesn't mean it should be allowed to live on
+Hack: and stall living is irreleant
+Hack: i think stall is the best playstyle even now
Piexplode: agreed
+Hack: i only care about one thing
+Hack: removing the uncompetitve aspects of the tier
+Hack: and whatever happens
+Hack: after that
+Hack: i don't care
Piexplode: seems legit
Piexplode: at least at this moment in time
Piexplode: the remaining meta game
Piexplode: after tag
Piexplode: is certainly less significant
Piexplode: than the act of removing tag
Piexplode: and making the tier more competitive
+Hack: is all that matters