Kids

[18:55] <Muss> 3Okay so, somethings come up that I'd like some clarification on, and would like a consensus from the people in this RP
[18:55] <Muss> 3Because we had a lot of old rules I don't know how we're dealing with them anymore since the reboot since they were kind of tied to the old RP too, and we also have some new people who should probably get a say
[18:58] <Muss> 3Mainly with the whole "having kids in sburb" in that we usually didn't have characters actually have by most means biological children, or if they were the character would have to make a deal to keep or make them through whatever means the player thought of
[18:59] * OJphone ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds)
[19:00] <Muss> 3And with the recent stuff with Thalia and possibly Caden being Hera's ectobile kid (I don't know a whole lot about that plot so I may need some correction from Rave about it if I say anything that isn't true through broad statements)
[19:02] <Muss> 3I was wondering how much we wanted to keep with that kind of rule, like if we still want to make it to do things like that or make a kid in the game it'd have a high cost or if people are more okay with just being relaxed about this kind of thing and let people mainly do what they feel would make for fun/good RP?
[19:04] <Lime> wwweeeeeell I'm leaning toward that first thing? But who am I to tell people what they can and can't rp?
[19:05] <Lime> Like... why would you want to birth kids into game hell? But on the other hand, if you can think of a good reason and you just really want to. Eh, why not?
[19:05] <The_Black_Watch> I think hes more talking about ways our characters can have kids that aren't the normal pregnancy route
[19:06] <The_Black_Watch> I'm pretty sure all of us agree that pregnancy is and should continue to be something we don't touch here, just because, well, it is SBURB
[19:07] <Keleviel> 14Yyyyyyeah
[19:08] <Lime> oh well in that case.
[19:08] * Lime unleashes a MIGHTY SHRUG
[19:12] <Keleviel> 14Maybe have it as a case-by-case basis
[19:12] <Keleviel> 14I mean
[19:13] <Keleviel> 14We don't want kids to die, that's pretty much certain
[19:13] <The_Black_Watch> Talked to Muss, and I'll be laying out what hes been meaning to say, so
[19:13] <Keleviel> 14So if circumstances can be conspired to move things around so that they won't, well
[19:13] <Keleviel> 14Ah, okay
[19:14] <The_Black_Watch> In old RV, there was alays a pretty hefty cost to having a kid in some form or another. Normally a deal or something similar. The gist of the RP being that "Terrible things happen, and if good things happen they come at a steep cost."
[19:15] <Keleviel> 14Ah, I think I see
[19:15] <The_Black_Watch> For the kids that have been introduced here, Thalia and Caden, there hasn't been a high cost for it
[19:15] <Keleviel> 14Yeah I was responding to the wrong question entirely
[19:16] <The_Black_Watch> And he was wondering if we wanted to go back to the high-cost thing, or leave it as its been played so far
[19:17] <Muss> 3(As mentioned before, there hasn't been a lot that has happened about the whole Caden thing from what I'd seen so far, so if that's wrong about the cost thing concerning that plot line then getting that cleared up would greatly help)
[19:18] <Sai> What'd I miss
[19:18] <The_Black_Watch> I'll get a paste
[19:18] * OJphone ([email protected]) has joined #extendeddiscussion
[19:18] <Muss> 3http://mibpaste.com/ZAHl6A
[19:19] <Muss> 3Invalid link, hold on a second
[19:19] <The_Black_Watch> http://pastebin.com/iR5q9H9x
[19:19] <Muss> 3Beat me to it :v
[19:19] * Sai reads
[19:19] <OJ> I mostly was not okay with ingame kids because, well, given the length of a pregnancy, even if the rigors of the Game don't get to it, the Door certainly will
[19:20] <OJ> and most games can't really accommodate someone being out of commission for 3 months
[19:20] <OJ> even if they do, it's still an extremely high-risk affair
[19:20] <OJ> I mean, I'm sure people have unprotected sex ingame and I'm sure some of them get pregnant, it's just that I don't personally want to address it, y'know?
[19:21] <The_Black_Watch> Its not about pregnancy
[19:21] <The_Black_Watch> Its about 'cheating' to get kids, through ectobiology shenanigans or otherwise where they're old enough to actually play
[19:21] <OJ> Yeah, at this point it's about genetic or adoptive kids rather than both at once
[19:21] <Ops> 02(TBW, I think OJ's adressing why the old kids are not okay thing was a thing)
[19:21] <OJ> I'd say charge them an Unusual Background tax, except we're not playing in a point-buy system
[19:21] <OJ> so
[19:21] <The_Black_Watch> (fair enough)
[19:22] <OJ> It's something we'll have to do on a case by case basis
[19:22] <OJ> but so far they seem all right, plus Caden was really from old RV
[19:22] <OJ> it's just not something I want to have happen much more - in the future, kids ingame should probably be like playing a Cataclysm
[19:22] <OJ> we're not going to say it doesn't happen but there should be at least /some/ reasoning
[19:23] <Chroniker> Makes sense to me.
[19:23] <OJ> (See, now I am imagining someone who gets pregnant ingame /anyway/, doesn't realize until it starts showing, and then has to contemplate the risk of getting an abortion vs. the risk of carrying to term in the murdergame. Which is /waaaaaay/ too controversial for me to actually play out.)
[19:23] <OJ> (For obvious reasons.)
[19:24] <Lime> (That's a fantastically interesting idea though. -thoughtful noise-)
[19:24] <Muss> 3(yeaaahhh)
[19:24] <Ops> 02(It's pretty much 'pit of despair' at that point.)
[19:25] <OJ> (Edgy != good.)
[19:25] <OJ> (Now consider if the kid comes from a culture where abortion is Inherently Bad...)
[19:26] <Chroniker> (It's interesting to think about, but /not/ something I'd ever want to play out.  0_0 )
[19:26] <Muss> 3So, from what I'm seeing so far people are hoping to treat it on a case by case basis depending on the circumstances?
[19:26] <Lime> Yes! I think that seems reasonable
[19:26] <Ops> 02So, um. I would really like more than just OJ's opinion on that.
[19:27] * Rave 12is just gonna keep out of this honestly
[19:29] <The_Black_Watch> For me, I'm not opposed to characters being creative to have kids in the game without cost. As long as it makes sense and isn't forced
[19:30] <The_Black_Watch> I'd like to play out more family scenarios, how they function in the game and what the seperation can do. Without having to put the characters through the wringer
[19:30] <Sai> I'm a bit biased, 'cos I like seeing kids being roleplayed, especially if they're done well (and Ops does it well), but... considering the setting, kids... should be an extremely rare thing, and obviously carrying a normal child to term without magic or technology interfering shouldn't be a thing
[19:31] <Sai> There's no way a child would be able to survive the game, and if they did, they'd be messed up like whoa.
[19:31] <The_Black_Watch> Yeah
[19:31] * Muss 3nods
[19:31] <The_Black_Watch> No children children, but kids old enough to play the game I'm okay with
[19:31] <Sai> Mm. :3
[19:33] <Ops> 02I mean, I am biased because I spent maybe the last while slowly building up the concept of Thalia (though she was originally Delta when I came up with her concept two years ago), but I... I look at the game and I sort of don't see a reason to put a blockade on the loopholes that we find.
[19:34] <Muss> 3My personal thoughts is that there should be some sort of cost for these things, but knowing what the majority would also prefer is important
[19:35] <Rave> 12ugh ok speaking up because i agree with tbw on the thing. i don't think there should always be a high cost for /everything/
[19:35] <Rave> 12because we already have high costs for well
[19:35] <Rave> 12everything else
[19:35] <Ops> 02My personal thought on the cost is that the cost is /ingenuity/
[19:36] <Muss> 3?
[19:37] <OJ> As long as you do it a different way than has been done before you're good?
[19:38] <Ops> 02Like, I think the way I'd put it is that if you spend the time to figure out a way around it, it's... your cost is spent through time. And probably resources.
[19:38] <Sai> As long as you fgure out a way of doing it at all, I think is Ops' meaning
[19:39] <OJ> ah
[19:39] <OJ> yeah
[19:39] <Ops> 02At the same time, I can see why a cost is... important. Maybe not a high cost. But like, there will always be a psychological cost. This is still SBURB.
[19:39] <Ops> 02You do not have the same kind of family.
[19:39] <Ops> 02Connections and growing up will be weird.
[19:41] <Ops> 02(If they exist at all, I suppose.)
[19:42] * Keleviel ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[19:46] <Muss> 3So
[19:46] <Muss> 3Costs are just how much time effort thought and the like you spend on it?
[19:48] <The_Black_Watch> I think thats the impression I'm getting from people?
[19:48] <The_Black_Watch> Its not all the costs. They're still going to be seperated from their parents, likely to never see them again
[19:49] <The_Black_Watch> And the characters themsevles have to make the choice of whether to put any potential kids of theirs through the game, knowing that and what they'll put them through
[19:54] <Muss> 3Mmm
[19:54] <Muss> 3I would personally be okay with these things but it makes all the costs seem so much more...character caused, instead of something so the game allows it
[19:55] <The_Black_Watch> Well
[19:55] * Sai is now known as Sai|Food
[19:56] <The_Black_Watch> It is suppose to be character driven, right?
[19:56] <The_Black_Watch> I'm not trying to put you down or anything. But that sort of makes the game more...actively malicious than I think its normally shown as?
[19:56] <Ops> 02But /why/ would the costs come from the game?
[19:57] <The_Black_Watch> Instead of making the rules and then not caring how it affects people
[19:58] <Muss> 3Because it makes the rules, and one of the rules is that everyone not a player is doomed to die, if they want to be a player they either have to go to things outside the game or the most powerful construct in the game
[19:58] <Ops> 02(Especially considering the Game does not appear to have any predisposition for tagging things created within the game as doomed. Otherwise, there would be no players, because they are ectobiologically made /in the game/, and would therefore be doomed.)
[19:59] <Muss> 3Right, but things made in the game that go through the door almost always don't go through, and the things that do are minor
[20:03] <Muss> 3I can agree to alternatives for these things and if we're okay with just accepting it could be a character driven stuff if people would prefer to RP that, but I couldn't believe any arguments based on the fact that the game would simply allow it to last long. At least it'd be a different type of game than what I know we've been using forever
[20:03] <Ops> 02I may look at SBURB from a design standpoint. Which is to say, the whole damn thing is pretty clearly cobbled together. I cannot imagine it having a check for 'if not a player, tag as doomed' that just goes off constantly. From a programmer standpoint, doing so would cause the entire thing to basically crash to a halt, not to mention the fact that nobody could ever get 'undoomed'
[20:04] <Ops> 02anyway, I gotta go.
[20:04] <Muss> 3Take care
[20:04] <Ops> 02I'll leave my computer open so that I can get logs but feel free to keep hammering this out
[20:04] * Ops is now known as Ops|Away
[20:06] <Muss> 3Also, I wasn't talking about anything, I was talking about people, the game can usually at least tell which people in a session are players and which aren't, I haven't seen a case where that hasn't been the case for non-players coming in
[20:06] <The_Black_Watch> People have survived to the end of the game though
[20:07] <The_Black_Watch> Non-players that is
[20:07] <The_Black_Watch> We haven't determined what happened when they go through the door. It might just assume 'player' and set them replaying
[20:07] <Ops|Away> 02and also one thing I should just drop before I go: The only part of the game that seems to 'care' about a player's actions is the part that determines ARC. Making life is actually a pretty Smith thing to do. (Dunno how relevant that is but I am just gonna go now so :v )
[20:08] <Muss> 3I thought it was assumed they became players, since if they went through the door most times they only survived by being borderline outside the game
[20:09] <Muss> 3The door has also been shown to shiny check, they may simply not come out if they don't have the right stuff
[20:10] <The_Black_Watch> But they might?
[20:11] <Muss> 3That throws them in another session where they are still doomed though if they aren't a player
[20:11] <Muss> 3And where would they go if they didn't replace a player?
[20:12] <Muss> 3They would have to somehow find one of the sessions players, and enter with them again, and then go through being doomed the whole session again
[20:12] <Muss> 3Or become a player
[20:12] <The_Black_Watch> By going through door it may assign them 'player'
[20:13] <The_Black_Watch> Overwrite any previous status they might have
[20:13] <Muss> 3Right, so no non-player can continuously survive in the game
[20:13] <Rave> 12Yeah that's what I figured would happen (RE: door assigning them as 'player')
[20:14] <Muss> 3I was thinking you were saying a non-player could continuously be a non-player even after continuing through the door
[20:15] <The_Black_Watch> Noooo
[20:15] <The_Black_Watch> By getting to the door, they drop the non part of non-player
[20:16] <Muss> 3Right
[20:17] <Muss> 3And while they are a non-player, they are doomed unless something is done about it, right?
[20:17] <The_Black_Watch> If they were born/created outside the session?
[20:17] <The_Black_Watch> I think it wouldn't be unreasonable
[20:19] <The_Black_Watch> But both Thalia and Caden were from in-session, meaning they wouldn't get the Doomed status. And by getting to the door, it could assign them as a Player for next session?
[20:20] <Rave> 12(Caden is already assigned a player because my reasoning was he was created with ecto equipment and sent back via meteor, which gave him the 'player' tag)
[20:20] <Muss> 3Caden was made by ectobiology and since we seem okay with it being mainly character driven costs they wouldn't be the best example because they were made normally by the game
[20:21] * The_Black_Watch nods
[20:21] <Muss> 3Thalia was made by equipment Bash made
[20:21] <Muss> 3Or brought with him from his pre-world, that bit may be important
[20:23] <The_Black_Watch> The AIs are kind of interesting, cause it brings up the point of whether its an intelligence thats a Player or the body
[20:24] <Muss> 3Technically it's wherever the shiny is
[20:25] <Muss> 3So on the technical point, it's the body
[20:25] <Muss> 3Cause you can be brain dead, or have no brain, but still have the shiny that's in your body
[20:27] <Muss> 3...I am likely not the best person for those philosophical questions
[20:27] <The_Black_Watch> heh
[20:29] * Bobbin ([email protected]) has joined #extendeddiscussion
[20:30] <Muss> 3Iiii, think we may have gotten the main question out of the way?
[20:30] <Muss> 3Right now it's mainly an off topic trying to figure out what the game things as a person and what it wouldn't
[20:31] * The_Black_Watch nods
[20:31] <The_Black_Watch> You okay with that?
[20:32] <Muss> 3Said before, if people are okay with having the more character made costs, I'm alright with that
[20:32] <The_Black_Watch> Alright
[20:32] <Bobbin> ?
[20:32] <Muss> 3I will still debate this to the death though about the game mechanics concerning how much of a person you could make before the game thinks of them as a person
[20:36] <The_Black_Watch> I can get you logs if you want Bobbin
[20:37] <Bobbin> would be appreciated