Response #2 (1/3)

# Response #2 (1/3)

> /u/MrKingOfNegativity apologies for the delay, let's finish this one up strong.

No need to apologize. Circumstances behind the delay were not your fault, and you still made it in spite of them. I can respect that. A lot.

Let's close this out with a bang.

## Last Points On the Speed Argument

> Jack's speed is high for the tier, that much should be known, what Jack is being shown doing here is not out of tier, especially for the reasons I’ve postulated.

You were the one who said (and then evidenced) that our tier-setter is tagged by bullets from a handgun. A gatling gun shoots at a monstrously faster RPM *and* fires bullets at a far higher muzzle velocity. Because of that, being able to effortlessly and continuously deflect gatling gun fire with sword swings indicates much, much, *much* greater speed on the part of the character deflecting those bullets. That was my point; that you placed the tier-setter on one level and then proceeded to place your own character on a significantly higher level.

It's not a question of whether or not Jason possesses out-of-tier speed. It's a question of whether or not your argument is consistent enough to be taken at face value.

> I’m not arguing this feat, I never mentioned this feat, for the sake of the arguments I put out, this feat might as well not exist.

I don't believe that matters in regards to the point raised. Your character, despite your stipulations on him, has a speed feat that is identical to the ones you are claiming are out of tier for mine. (Feats which I, myself, never mentioned in my argument either) If you wanted that feat excluded, you should have had it excluded. That you haven't means I can draw all of the comparisons I like when raising my point.

A point which still stands, by the way. If the high interpretation of Uber Jason's FTE feats puts him out-of-tier, then that goes double for the *conservative* interpretation of Mr. Green's feat that I linked.

## Mr. Green VS Uber Jason

**Dealing With the Arguments Made**

> As for the landing part, I don’t know about you but [that looks like a *lot* of dirt, I don’t see any rock there at all, or anything that would be hard to displace](https://i.imgur.com/INAHJ4e.jpeg) (and before it's said, those rocks adjacent to the crater were obviously there before, due to how they are imbedded in the grass). I’m gonna say it, displacing a lot of dirt is not really a feat, and besides, Mr. Green has already tanked something more impressive, and didn’t have to stop for a while to get up afterwards.

Displacing enough dirt to make a crater the size of a living room is definitely a feat. Dirt not being as solid as stone doesn't change that; this is like someone using the "brittle material" argument to claim that smashing an obsidian pillar is not a feat.

But since we're picking apart materials now, let's apply about that piledriver feat. Freeze-framing [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=0m41s) tells us that Mr. Green's "base" is actually a hotel/resort. They're fighting on the hotel floors when that feat happens. What are hotel floors made out of?

According to [this source](https://parterreflooring.com/hospitality-flooring-101/)...
> Hotel floors can be made of many materials, including **wood, ceramic tile, vinyl or even concrete**. What is more important, however, is the durability of the chosen hotel flooring. With the amount of heavy foot traffic it will likely experience, **a material like LVT is better suited for hotel flooring**.

The only concrete we see comes from the last floor they fell through, so the rest of those were likely made of one of the weaker materials listed above. I'm not going to try and guess which one, because it doesn't make much difference; the feat isn't as impressive as you seem to think.

>But we’re arguing damage output right now for Mr. Green, so what does he have?
>
>[Here’s him throwing a large ladder hard enough to be embedded in the wall](https://gfycat.com/creamyeducatedharlequinbug)
>
>[Clashes with Mr. Red in a way that heavily damages the ground](https://gfycat.com/potablechiefauklet)
>
>Using that and [this](https://gfycat.com/lightnewleafcutterant), we can conclude that Mr. Red and Mr. Green are *extremely* equivalent in strength, and Mr. Red has…
>
>[Broke off a piece of catwalk and launched it extremely hard with his legs](https://gfycat.com/academicagileflyingfish)
>
>[Punching straight through the ground](https://gfycat.com/givingclosedbantamrooster)

All of that is far from impressive when compared to Uber Jason's durability. If the re-entry feat is not enough to indicate that, then:

* [A blast from explosive charges powerful enough to destroy a spacecraft's bridge tunnel](https://gfycat.com/illinformedhandmadelhasaapso) isn't enough to kill Uber Jason.
* [Uber Jason shoulder-ramming his lesser, fleshy counterpart through that metal wall I mentioned before](https://imgur.com/a/dnzKi) did not hurt either of them.
   * Using film showings to discredit this won't work; this version of fleshy Jason was stronger than his film counterpart, as he was [reconstructed using nanotech and dead bodies](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/xLxSdvphyfEINa0Pe0MBF7wA1EXu4WVsnHSWgKFDvzE6kt9Hl_8hy5Y4GdtmWMHyE7ejKOnEObsi=s16000), the former of which is programmed to upgrade whatever tissues it reconstructs.
* [Two versions of Uber Jason brawl](https://pastebin.com/pdFparxh), taking hits from each other without stopping. Refer to the strength feats I listed off before in this case; both of these two are capable of replicating them.

As I said before, Mr. Green's strength is not enough to kill Jason with that alone. Trying to out-muscle him is going to be a losing battle, no matter how many clones are hitting him at once.

> It’s simple, it's shown that Mr. Green is capable of working with other clones in tandem, as if he can communicate with them remotely. This is further shown as later on, he’s shown weaving in sentences with his clones. Point is, he’s not gonna have any problem coordinating with his clones to say…

Let me go through these one by one.

> Throw him off the building

A character who has survived falling from space is not going to be hurt by being thrown off a building.

> Impale him on one of the nearby skyscraper lightning rods

I peeped this game faster than you could run it.

> Jason [can survive with his heart vaporized](https://pastebin.com/qdMfqq6Z) and regenerate from having multiple parts of his body (including the bulk of his head) [melted off by a laser](https://pastebin.com/qdMfqq6Z).

Impalement isn't going to kill or incap someone who can walk around with a giant hole where his heart used to be, and Jason is more than strong enough to snap a lightning rod so he can get back to moving again.

> Throw him into the water

Picking him up in order to do this is just asking for him to manhandle whoever's doing it. Also...

> Of special note: the city limits cannot be exited under any circumstance, with an invisible 'wall' preventing persons from exfiltrating the island; you're stuck on the island, for better or worse.
> *-OP fiat*

...you're not getting him into the water, no matter how hard you toss him.

> Grab each limb and quarter him
> Pull off his head

These might actually work if Mr. Green or any of his clones had the strength to do so. Unfortunately, as I have evidenced above, they don't.

Quartering Jason would be especially impossible for someone weaker than him to accomplish. Medieval executioners used horses to pull off ~~lol~~ that execution for a reason.

> Oh, right. Long-term endurance isn’t going to mean anything in this fight, since Jason is going to lose in less than a minute anyway. As shown before, **Mr. Green has him beat in literally every stat, save for a bit of durability**, and that stat won’t matter in the slightest since he’s going to be fighting 10+ Mr. Greens at once.

You haven't proven such a thing at all. In fact, you haven't even tackled Jason's strength feats yet, much less proven that they're inferior to Mr. Green's. Durability has since been re-proven to be in Jason's favor, and...

Actually, that's about it. There's nothing left to even argue stats-wise except for speed.
>For this, I’m going the put forward a simple argument: Mr. Green does not have a speed mode.
>
>[There is nothing suggesting that Mr. Green activated anything here. All we have his him moving at a burst of speed, until Mr. Red finally equalized with his speed boost. His comment (IE: saying “if u dun use it”) does nothing to prove that Mr. Green has one of these modes. Making assumptions based on character interactions in an animation made over a decade ago is not going to go well (I mean, have you seen the writing in these?)](https://gfycat.com/madeupregularchital)
>
>[See my previous explanation on this feat](https://gfycat.com/thoseinborngiraffe)
~~First off, let's not get started on bad writing, because I'm pretty sure Jason has Mr. Green beat there too.~~

There are [entire sequences](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=0m11s) in which [both characters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=1m29s) fight at [normal speed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m27s), followed by [later sequences](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=0m36s) where [they fight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=2m12s) at [visibly superhuman speeds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m36s). There is a clear divide between the two that is presented throughout every fight in the series. The videos go out of their way to show us the difference at every turn. To say that Mr. Green does not utilize any speed boost whatsoever is to ignore that completely.

>[We should talk about this one some more](https://gfycat.com/potablechiefauklet)
>
>This feat is the *only* one that even remotely proves that Mr. Green has a speed mode. And it's extremely shaky, mostly because it raises some questions.
>
>Why does it take so long to charge? We’ve shown that Mr. Green is able to [enter this “speed mode” at will](https://gfycat.com/grandhonestdutchshepherddog)

Probably for the same reason why Mr. Red has to charge it up a bit [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m36s); because it looks cool.

I mean, Red can usually just pop his on and off too, but he's also seen charging it up every so often because...?

>How is he able to summon (temporary) clones while doing it?
>
>Why is this the only time he’s done it? Shouldn’t he have done in the [other few times he was blitzed by Mr. Red?](https://gfycat.com/largewastefulcaecilian)
>
>**If he’s supposedly too slow to keep up with Mr. Red (and thus in tier speed), then why is he able to block each of Mr. Reds blows while he’s charging? Wouldn't that suggest he has in tier reactions, even when out of this supposed “speed mode” you're trying to argue the existence of?**

By the same token, why do he and his clones [constantly fail](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=3m19s) [to react](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=2m59s) [whenever Mr. Red](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m20s) [is clearly using amplified speed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m13s) [and they themselves are not](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m36s)? Why is it that the only times they've been able to consistently react to each other's sudden bursts of speed are when both of them are using said bursts at once? Why does Mr. Red have several blatant scenes where [boosting has him moving normally while Mr. Green and his clones are moving in Matrix-esque slow motion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=2m52s)?

The answer is simple; Mr. Green's best speed feats come from an identical boost, and his baseline speed is nowhere near that high.

> Even if this supposed “speed mode” does exist, he’s shown in the very feat you use to prove its existence to have in tier reaction time, when blocking Mr. Red’s blows with his temporary clones.

And that is contradicted by the many examples I've shown above where he fails to react to Mr. Red's boosted attacks when he himself is not amped up as well. As I said before, consistency beats a one-off every time.

> Will he get tired eventually? Yeah sure, but it's gonna take minutes of sustained fighting, and he’s always got clones to tag in.

And *now* is the part of the post where I go back to the stamina argument and add what I said I was going to before.

Mr. Green doesn't just lose his ability to boost himself when tiring out. His cloning suffers as well. Shock More shows this pretty clearly; early into the fight, [he is able to summon as many as eight clones at once](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=2m56s), as well as summon clones rapidly after they've been taken out. Once he starts getting tired, however, the numbers begin to dwindle, until [he's stuck summoning a much smaller number](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=3m52s) and, eventually, [incapable of summoning more than one at a time](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=3m56s). Eventually, he's so worn out that he can't even use his cloning to save himself from getting hit in the face with a piano, which is something he [100%](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=1m54s) [could have done](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FRKCTWSPw&t=1m22s) if he were still in peak condition.

Now that I've proven that the super speed is *not* something he is capable of in base, that Jason outstats Mr. Green in every other area, that Jason's cutting feats far outstrip Mr. Green's piercing resistance, and that Mr. Green's attacks are not going to put him down fast or long enough for the massive gap in stamina not to come into play, I think it's safe to say that Mr. Green's clones are going to fall *very* quickly and that, sooner or later, Mr. Green himself is going to run out of tricks to pull. Mr. Green's powers will not last the fight, and once his ability to boost his speed and clone himself falters, he's just going to be a strong yet tired stickman with martial arts skills.

But there's one last loose end I want to tie up.

> Nope, yeah, that's all she wrote, the claim that Jason can use his stealth to silently take out Mr. Green clones because he was able to take out a bunch of the previously mentioned horror movie soldiers. Yeah no that ain’t happening to Mr. Green, and here's why.
I'll go through these in order.
> As previously mentioned, Mr. Green outspeeds Jason heavily
I have proven above that said speed advantage will be temporary.
>As per the prompt rules: both combatants start on the top of the clock tower
>Jason won’t have the time to run and hide in the clock tower, before Mr. Green engages him
Uber Jason doesn't run away. That was never the point I made. Let me refer back to what you said in your opening post:
>During this time, the clones continue to fight while the real Mr. Green slips out to a safer distance

You're the one who proposed that Mr. Green would go run and hide somewhere. *My* point was that, if he chose to do so, Jason would have no trouble tracking him down and killing him before he could realize he's been found.

>Even if Jason somehow manages to get away, and into the building, Mr. Green isn’t a dumbass, unlike some fucking horror movie soliders

He's also not a master of stealth, or even a master of hiding. His best feat of stealth was hiding in plain sight amongst his clones. Not the greatest tactic against a nanotech super-zombie who wants to kill all of them whether they're real or not.

And if he decides to break away from his clones, as you proposed before, he's just going to open himself up to being hunted and killed.

## Conclusions

* Uber Jason is still more than capable of surviving being blitzed, outlasting Mr. Green and his clones and then taking them down once they're tired.
* Mr. Green's speed amp is *definitely* a thing that exists, and it will not last once Mr. Green is tired out.
   * As well, there is ample evidence to suggest that Mr. Green's cloning powers will not last once his stamina is depleted.
* Half of the kill methods proposed by the opponent won't actually work, and the rest are outside of Mr. Green's means.
* Jason still outstats and possesses more than enough cutting strength to take out Mr. Green's clones in quick succession.
* If Mr. Green should hide, he will still be screwed.