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#transgender-discussion

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Jun 22nd, 2020
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  1. 6/21/2020, times are in EST
  2.  
  3. [2:16 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Alright so new findings on OmegaToad64 have come to light that have caused his demotion. I will provide this link: https://discordapp.com/channels/186707873789640705/186708155873492993/724151630970355772 to go to the beginning of the incident and then also paraphrase what went down below:
  4. [2:22 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Here's the first offending comment, clear disapproval of transgender people
  5. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724328494011646052/unknown.png>
  6. [2:24 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Not wanting to use the pronouns that the Smasher wants to use.
  7. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724328794957283486/unknown.png>
  8. [2:25 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Openly against transgender as an admin, complaint filed
  9. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724329095290159264/unknown.png>
  10. [2:27 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Trying to save face, several people saying that they are uncomfortable with an anti-lgbt admin
  11. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724329584836739102/unknown.png>
  12. [2:29 PM] Serpent ∞ King: backpedaling, still trying to save face
  13. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724330142523981884/unknown.png>
  14. [2:31 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Admin showing clear signs of not understanding the rules or what those rules are for.
  15. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724330633937158245/unknown.png>
  16. [2:32 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Half hearted non-apology.
  17. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724331003677638716/unknown.png>
  18. [2:34 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Implication that Christianity mean transphobia
  19. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724331333031165952/unknown.png>
  20. [2:35 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Half hearted apology again, at least not a non-apology this time...far too late
  21. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/724325110256762910/724331577739313282/unknown.png>
  22. [2:36 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Right after this Flare gets involved and demotes and ends the discussion.
  23. [2:37 PM] Serpent ∞ King: So that's basically what happened. What I want to tackle here today is 2 things: 1, the mistakes made here and how they made everyone feel (civilized discussion), and 2 what measure we can take to prevent a situation where staff act like this in the future. We also may need to discuss a demotion system, but that I feel is better saved for on wiki. We can come up with ideas here though if you like
  24. [2:49 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Final note before we get started: this is sensitive territory and will remain civilized. anyone who does not do so will be ejected from this channel no questions asked
  25. [2:50 PM] Serpent ∞ King: @SmashWiki contributor we're ready now
  26. [2:50 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Now it’s sod
  27. [2:50 PM] Revbecca: hey
  28. [2:50 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Please actually read the above
  29. [2:51 PM] Revbecca: i believe transphobia has no place in administration as a trans person myself
  30. [2:51 PM] Acoma: ^
  31. [2:52 PM] Zeckemyro: I'd like to believe there is a chance to educate OmegaToad
  32. [2:52 PM] awesomelink234: He certainly came off as transphobic, despite trying to state otherwise
  33. [2:52 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Now the time being of the gender appropriate appreciation does affect people or to educate
  34. [2:52 PM] Serpent ∞ King: The first thing I would like to say is that I think something about using the smasher's preferred pronouns should go into policy
  35. [2:53 PM] Eexey: Yes
  36. [2:53 PM] Acoma: Absolutely
  37. [2:53 PM] Revbecca: have you dealt with transgender issues before on smashwiki?
  38. [2:53 PM] Revbecca: also agree 100
  39. [2:53 PM] Acgamer28: Agree
  40. [2:53 PM] Señor Mexicano: It’s been an unwritten rule for a long time. Would definitely like to see it actually noted somewhere.
  41. [2:53 PM] Zeckemyro: Great Policy
  42. [2:53 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Agree
  43. [2:53 PM] Timson: outside of vandals trying to misgender trans players in bad faith, not on a large scale
  44. [2:53 PM] Acgamer28: A more tenuous discussion would be the recording of deadnames/pronouns
  45. [2:54 PM] Acoma: I think that shouldn't happen
  46. [2:54 PM] Revbecca: catalogging deadnames is pretty offensive unless there's some legal part of it but as a smash wiki i dont think it's necessary
  47. [2:54 PM] Cookies and Creme: The only real "situation" is with Magi iirc, and that's because she wished to be called by her formal name so her parents won't figure out
  48. [2:54 PM] Acoma: Nobody has any business knowing a trans person's deadname unless they explicitly want it to be publicly known
  49. [2:54 PM] Revbecca: ^
  50. [2:54 PM] Zeckemyro: Most trans people don't want to think about the past in my experience
  51. [2:54 PM] Acgamer28: Ok, I see now
  52. [2:54 PM] Cookies and Creme: For the most part, whatever name they go by is what I usually put
  53. [2:54 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: More other types such as situations or what type you’re
  54. [2:54 PM] Acgamer28: I’m not a member of the community so I wouldn’t know
  55. [2:55 PM] Revbecca: i would
  56. [2:55 PM] Acgamer28: But I appreciate the correction
  57. [2:55 PM] Acgamer28: Thank you
  58. [2:55 PM] wizardgeno #BanjoGang: as a muslim myelf, religion shouldn't be a shield for shitting on people for who they are
  59. [2:55 PM] Revbecca: also christianity has nothing to do with transphobia
  60. [2:55 PM] Voqéo: I did this in #smashwiki already, but I'll post it here since it's more relevant. This also isn't his first instance. Here are his comments on pride month a few days ago that went relatively unnoticed
  61.  
  62. [2:55 PM] wizardgeno #BanjoGang: the Quran says only God judges
  63. [2:55 PM] Acgamer28: BIG SECOND @Revbecca
  64. [2:55 PM] Acoma: I think that's why education is a good option @wizardgeno #BanjoGang
  65. [2:55 PM] wizardgeno #BanjoGang: so
  66. [2:55 PM] Zeckemyro: Wait it happened before?!
  67. [2:55 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: I mean what’s wrong gender
  68. [2:56 PM] Antimony: @Revbecca wikipedia policy is to include deadnames, both for transgender people and for people who changed their names
  69.  
  70. it's not nice per se but it's a wiki for information
  71.  
  72. for instance in the article on caitlyn jenner you can still see a note that her birthname is bruce
  73. [2:56 PM] Cookies and Creme: I don't believe religion should really factor into here tbh
  74. [2:56 PM] Revbecca: thats fair and fine
  75. [2:56 PM] Revbecca: and goes with the legal part
  76. [2:56 PM] Acoma: Birth name isn't necessary though it's a smash wiki
  77. [2:56 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: The gender literally just kind of explains how it is. Gender isn’t just like religion of sort of stuff.
  78.  
  79. [2:56 PM] Acoma: If wikipedia want to record deadnames then let them
  80. [2:56 PM] Antimony: names tend to be "included unless the smasher requests they not be included"
  81. [2:56 PM] Acoma: Make it the other way round
  82. [2:56 PM] aidanzapunk: there's a difference between using a dead name for the sake of information and using a dead name flat out in objection to the used name
  83.  
  84. 4
  85. [2:56 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: People literally hates homosexuality
  86. [2:56 PM] Cookies and Creme: I feel like it's common sense to put the name the currently go by
  87.  
  88. 1
  89. [2:56 PM] Acoma: "Deadnames not included unless requested otherwise"
  90. [2:56 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: It’s common(edited)
  91. [2:57 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: My parents even hate homo too
  92. [2:57 PM] Zeckemyro: I agree with Acoma
  93. [2:57 PM] Eexey: I also agree with Acoma
  94. [2:57 PM] Serpent ∞ King: How's "In the case of transgender or nonbinary gender smashers, the article should use the smasher's preferred pronouns throughout." in SW:SMASHER
  95.  
  96. 17
  97. [2:57 PM] Revbecca: agree
  98. [2:57 PM] Eexey: Agree(edited)
  99. [2:57 PM] Señor Mexicano: Sounds good
  100. [2:57 PM] Cookies and Creme: yes
  101. [2:57 PM] Zeckemyro: Agree
  102. [2:57 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Totally Agree
  103. [2:57 PM] aidanzapunk: big fat agree
  104. [2:57 PM] Antimony: agree with both aidanzapunk and serpentking
  105. [2:57 PM] Acgamer28: that seems to be a great baseline @Serpent ∞ King
  106. [2:57 PM] awesomelink234: Agree
  107. [2:57 PM] Acoma: "... and should not mention their deadname unless they wish it to be publicly known"
  108.  
  109. 6
  110. [2:57 PM] Personguy: OmegaToad should've seen this coming, honestly
  111. Didn't he say he prefers to keep to himself? But then why would he say something so contentious?
  112. [2:58 PM] Cookies and Creme: Usually they state their pronouns on their Twitter bio, so that's what pronoun should be used
  113. [2:58 PM] Monado Boy: 1. The mistakes made were very inexcusable and blatantly transphobic, and no one who displays this type of behavior should not have any authority in the server whatsoever, especially when the person in question asked when the next rfa was going to happen just moments after the demote happened.
  114.  
  115. 2. The measures we could take is to ban any sort of ideals that apply to any admin/operator that clearly show a bigoted mindset. The process can be the same process used for how someone goes from "joined" to "banned". If its a extreme offense, like the one caused today, they shouldnt be allowed to regain their admin/operator rule. If it isnt as extreme and/or for smaller offenses, they can be able to regain the ability to apply for the role again the same way rfos happen.
  116.  
  117. Being a christian doesnt excuse this type of behavior.(edited)
  118. [2:58 PM] Alex95 (Commissions!): I have given my points in our administration channel, but the short of it I wholeheartedly agree with OmegaToad's demotion and I don't believe he should be repromoted any time soon.
  119.  
  120. As another Christian, I'd like to apologize to the transgender people in this community for the disrespect that was shown last night (in my time) and his actions do not align the rest of our religion.
  121.  
  122. Also, agreed with SK's amendment.
  123.  
  124. 11
  125.  
  126. 12
  127. [2:58 PM] Eexey: Someone asked him a question, perhaps he felt complacent enough to respond without any backlash
  128. [2:58 PM] Timson: agreed there, worth nothing nb falls under the trans umbrella
  129. [2:58 PM] Personguy: And he did such a crappy job damage controlling
  130. [2:58 PM] Revbecca: using christianity as a shield is a common thing but really it shows an even weaker mindset
  131. [2:58 PM] isachu: YES!! thats very important
  132. [2:58 PM] isachu: no deadname
  133. [2:58 PM] isachu: please
  134. [2:58 PM] Acoma: ^^
  135.  
  136. 1
  137. [2:58 PM] Serpent ∞ King: alright that's done
  138. [2:58 PM] Acoma:
  139. "... and should not mention their deadname unless they wish it to be publicly known"
  140. [2:59 PM] MHStarCraft: Never really agreed with the religion excuse myself as a Christian.
  141. [2:59 PM] Serpent ∞ King: https://www.ssbwiki.com/SmashWiki:Smasher_article_guidelines#Other_guidelines_to_remember
  142. SmashWiki
  143. SmashWiki:Smasher article guidelines
  144. Smasher articles are a valued part of the wiki, providing "Smash biographies" of the players, tournament organizers, and contributors, that make the competitive scene and greater Smash community possible. These articles are meant to chronicle the contributions and endeavors in...
  145. [2:59 PM] Revbecca: no deadname should be included unless requested because that is a very sensitive topic for most trans people, including myself.
  146. [2:59 PM] !Trupera: kinda crazy this all happen within a couple of minutes
  147. [2:59 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I got that
  148. [2:59 PM] Acoma: Nice
  149. [2:59 PM] Revbecca: good
  150. [2:59 PM] Acgamer28: even though i am one for being as encyclopedic as possible, i'm ok with excluding deadnames except on request if it is such a bad matter for the community
  151. [2:59 PM] Revbecca: this is a step in the right direction
  152. [2:59 PM] Acoma: Yeah lots of trans people really don't like it
  153. [2:59 PM] Acoma: It's not them anymore
  154. [2:59 PM] Personguy: Like...using religion as a shield is a horrible, nonsensical idea
  155. [2:59 PM] Acgamer28: i totally get it now @Acoma
  156. [2:59 PM] Zeckemyro: Smash wiki is for Smash stuff
  157. [2:59 PM] aidanzapunk: exactly, a dead name is...well, dead
  158. [2:59 PM] Cookies and Creme: Again, I just put the name they provide, and if they want to change it they can
  159.  
  160. 4
  161. [2:59 PM] Monado Boy: edited my comment
  162. [2:59 PM] Zeckemyro: We record past mains, not past name
  163. [2:59 PM] Acoma: There's a difference between a shield and a justification @Personguy but yes
  164. [3:00 PM] wizardgeno #BanjoGang: @Personguy especially when said religion says you shouldn't attack people for who they are
  165. [3:00 PM] Acoma: Nice, zeck
  166. [3:00 PM] Acgamer28: so now, i want to take a second to reiterate a point i made in #smashwiki
  167. [3:00 PM] awesomelink234: I agree with Elf, he should not be repromoted, especially since he asked when he could file another RfA
  168. [3:00 PM] Antimony: i don't mean to be insensitive but
  169.  
  170. it's not like they didn't exist before they came out as trans
  171.  
  172. the wiki is meant to be an encyclopedic compilation of information, we should use preferred pronouns but if a deadname/deadtag is public information it shouldn't be excluded except on request
  173. [3:00 PM] Personguy: What was he thinking?
  174. [3:00 PM] isachu: do not use their deadname
  175.  
  176. 4
  177. [3:00 PM] Serpent ∞ King:
  178. they shouldnt be allowed to regain their admin/operator rule.
  179. Well there is such a thing as being uneducated on how these things work
  180. [3:00 PM] Revbecca: you're right, however they shouldn't be referred to as that deadname even before coming out
  181. [3:00 PM] Zeckemyro: Well again, a smasher's name is not that important
  182. [3:00 PM] Xtra: Yeah, don't deadname
  183. [3:00 PM] isachu: by default sont use it
  184. [3:00 PM] Cookies and Creme: ok we aren't bashing OT right now, we're discussing how to avoid this in the future
  185.  
  186. 4
  187. [3:00 PM] isachu: i cant stress it enough
  188. [3:00 PM] Acoma: Using a trans person's deadname can be really upsetting
  189. [3:01 PM] isachu: you WILL hurt them
  190. [3:01 PM] Zeckemyro: Let alone their previous rejected name
  191. [3:01 PM] Antimony: i'm not saying to call them their deadname
  192. [3:01 PM] Acoma: Mentioning it is just as bad
  193. [3:01 PM] isachu: dont include it
  194. [3:01 PM] Zeckemyro: Don't record it either
  195. [3:01 PM] Antimony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner
  196. Caitlyn Jenner
  197. Caitlyn Marie Jenner (born William Bruce Jenner; October 28, 1949) is an American television personality and retired Olympic gold medal–winning decathlete.
  198. Jenner played college football for the Graceland Yellowjackets before incurring a knee injury that required surgery. Conv...
  199.  
  200. [3:01 PM] isachu: it hurts them(edited)
  201. [3:01 PM] Revbecca: their history before coming out will still be documented
  202. [3:01 PM] Antimony: literally just look at how this article is handled
  203. [3:01 PM] Serpent ∞ King: look we aren't using dead names
  204. [3:01 PM] Serpent ∞ King: next please
  205. [3:01 PM] isachu: good
  206. [3:01 PM] Zeckemyro: Ssbwiki is not wikipedia
  207. [3:01 PM] Acoma:
  208. [3:01 PM] Señor Mexicano: Just cause Wikipedia does it doesn’t mean we should.
  209.  
  210. 3
  211. [3:01 PM] Revbecca: it's a smashwiki, its not important anyway
  212.  
  213. just use their tag
  214. [3:01 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Im not being sensitive here but just leave genders alone. People, users, Smashers, whatever kind they are. Especially their deadname. It hurts us more to them even if they’re important.(edited)
  215.  
  216. 1
  217. [3:01 PM] awesomelink234: "As SmashWiki is an online encyclopedia in the same vein as Wikipedia, it makes sense that information is covered in a similar way. With that said, however, SmashWiki and Wikipedia are not to be treated as the same. While Wikipedia may cover information in one way, that does not mean that we at SmashWiki need to emulate how it is displayed on Wikipedia. The same rule applies to policies; Wikipedia has its own policies that they adhere to, and SmashWiki has its own, separate policies that should be adhered to. This extends to other NIWA wikis, as one wiki covering information a certain way or having a particular policy does not mean that SmashWiki should cover information that same way or follow that particular policy, and vice versa."(edited)
  218. [3:02 PM] Cookies and Creme: If it really comes down to uncertainty just don't include the name
  219. [3:02 PM] Cookies and Creme: Not all Smasher pages have their full name
  220. [3:02 PM] Revbecca: gender is very simple
  221.  
  222. if they identify as that gender they're that gender
  223.  
  224. as a smashwiki there's no need to comment or oppose that
  225. [3:02 PM] Cookies and Creme: Wait for a clarification before adding the name
  226. [3:02 PM] Serpent ∞ King: that's a privacy thing
  227. [3:02 PM] Antimony: oh oh
  228. [3:02 PM] awesomelink234: Directly quoted from SW:NOT
  229. [3:02 PM] Serpent ∞ King: as is this
  230. [3:02 PM] Antimony: i don't mean including their real deadname
  231. [3:02 PM] Antimony: i was talking about people who change their tags after coming out as trans (which i know more than a few examples of)
  232. [3:02 PM] Antimony: sorry for confusion
  233. [3:02 PM] isachu: thats what this is about....
  234. [3:02 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Smashers are allowed to request their real names be redacted
  235. [3:02 PM] Antimony: yeah then i'm fine with that @Serpent ∞ King
  236. [3:02 PM] Señor Mexicano: Former tags are fine imo
  237. [3:02 PM] aidanzapunk: and other personal information
  238. [3:03 PM] Revbecca: our job is to catalog their smash career, not their personal life
  239. [3:03 PM] Acoma: "Former tags fine unless asked to be redacted"?
  240. [3:03 PM] isachu: ye
  241. [3:03 PM] isachu: imo
  242. [3:03 PM] Antimony: yeah
  243. [3:03 PM] Acoma:
  244. [3:03 PM] isachu: unless it has something like their deadname or etc
  245. [3:03 PM] Señor Mexicano: Is this explicitly stated on the wiki yet? Them being allowed to remove private info.
  246. [3:03 PM] Serpent ∞ King: agreed rev
  247. [3:03 PM] Antimony: then i'm in agreement with you all
  248. [3:03 PM] isachu: that hurts them
  249. [3:03 PM] isachu: it might be case by case
  250. [3:03 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Yes it is senor
  251. [3:03 PM] Señor Mexicano: What page?
  252. [3:03 PM] Serpent ∞ King: SW:SMASHER
  253. [3:03 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: My sister is the only person i can agree on for gender reliability
  254. [3:04 PM] Señor Mexicano: Idk why didn’t think to look at that one lol. I couldn’t find it last time.
  255. [3:04 PM] Personguy: If you remove information from the wiki, couldn't someone just go to the edit history and view their personal info that way?
  256. [3:04 PM] Cookies and Creme: btw how long will this channel be open? I gotta go soon it's Father's Day
  257. [3:04 PM] Zeckemyro: Let's take the smasher that kickstarted all this
  258. [3:04 PM] Zeckemyro: Hazel Gross
  259. [3:04 PM] isachu: personguy thats a really good point
  260. [3:04 PM] aidanzapunk: @Personguy admins have the ability to hide edits
  261. [3:04 PM] isachu: thats good
  262. [3:04 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Certain things are allowed to be omitted by the request of the smasher in question, for security reasons. They include real names, birth dates, and locations (although instead of completely omitting the location, it's probably better to be less specific, countries/states/provinces are usually enough).
  263. [3:04 PM] isachu: hm
  264. [3:04 PM] Zeckemyro: In her coming out post, she specifically said not to call her by her previous name
  265. [3:04 PM] Personguy: Like Wikipedia?
  266. [3:04 PM] Acoma: Is it worth recommending that everyone re reads the writing advice after this discussion is over admins?
  267. [3:04 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: My dad hates sexuality he likes people that are ONLY STRAIGHT
  268.  
  269. 2
  270. [3:05 PM] isachu: but like couldnt you go back to the first edit or something?
  271. [3:05 PM] Revbecca: your dad can keep that to himself
  272. [3:05 PM] awesomelink234: @Personguy And bcrats can hide them completely, even from other admins
  273. [3:05 PM] isachu: and it'd always be there
  274. [3:05 PM] aidanzapunk: let's keep the conversation on topic, Howplayz
  275. [3:05 PM] isachu: its better than nothing but still
  276. [3:05 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Anyhow... people just became more reliable of how it happened of sorts
  277. [3:05 PM] Señor Mexicano: As a recent example, n0ne had his name removed due to violence going on in his home country that could potentially have affected him. Admins hid the revisions containing his name. This was lifted after he had left the country.
  278.  
  279. 7
  280. [3:06 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Literally the fact people are just having their own opinions are what the had lifted on themselves
  281. [3:06 PM] Serpent ∞ King: yeah we had to hide almost the entire history for that
  282. [3:06 PM] Acoma: aight gotta dip bye
  283. [3:06 PM] Cookies and Creme: Also my point on Magi from before, where we used her dead name at her request until she moved out
  284. [3:06 PM] Señor Mexicano: Worth it to protect a life
  285. [3:06 PM] Serpent ∞ King: oh absolutely
  286. [3:06 PM] Acgamer28: ok so i have a bit of a wall of text coming up
  287. [3:07 PM] Eexey: Same
  288. [3:07 PM] Serpent ∞ King: LEt's move on a little here
  289. [3:07 PM] Acgamer28: i don't want to try and siderail the discussion but
  290. [3:07 PM] Acgamer28: y'all cool if i post a bit rn?
  291. [3:07 PM] isachu: so you guys would hide the entire history for it?
  292. [3:07 PM] Señor Mexicano: I’d say go for it
  293. [3:07 PM] Eexey: Can i too also post a bit?
  294. [3:07 PM] isachu: just send it in one message
  295. [3:07 PM] Acgamer28: i'm trying, will let you know when it's ready
  296. [3:07 PM] Señor Mexicano: I mean that’s the purpose of this channel. Go all out
  297. [3:07 PM] Eexey: Time for my two cents on this.
  298.  
  299. 1. From my point of view, it seemed like OT didn't think that trans was such a thing, such if someone was trans, are they just a male or female, or both? I didn't really think that he opposed them having rights or anything. I think he believes that they should have rights as anyone else, just that their identity isn't as difficult to discern. He also thought that transgender was "ew", meaning that he thought the concept didn't seem right to him. Though, he can definitely attempt to clear himself better than his half-hearted responses above. I didn't really feel anything when reading his response, as I thought it was his opinion on whether trans people are just men that have turned to female and vice versa. His opinions on Pride Month I see as the same, due to how Christian denominations usually say that being gay is not correct, it's ingrained into how he is. It's learning decorum and knowing that what you say, even if it's something like that, has it's hard consequences. I support trans rights, I support everyone being treated fairly and equally, I just think that this was blown out of proportion.
  300.  
  301. 2. If we're taking measures to prevent a situation like this, a couple things seem a bit too radical. Banning any sort of ideals that apply to any admin/operator that show a bigoted mindset seems like prying much into their own personal beliefs and ideals. If they have administrative powers, their goes as "They are usually entrusted to mediate user disputes, arbitrate users, and interpret policy during times of argument." If he is to leave his own personal beliefs to take an objective view, I think that's fine to have instead. This reminds me sorta of Trump, do you care about his misogynistic and racist actions, or do you care of the work that he does in the White House as the president? I think we should apply what SK said, and also refrain from talking about subjects like this, especially from an admin, don't speak on your beliefs.
  302. [3:07 PM] isachu: just send it no worries
  303. [3:07 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Yeah just make a version that doesn't have anything unwanted
  304. [3:07 PM] awesomelink234: Proof
  305.  
  306. [3:07 PM] Serpent ∞ King: then hide the rest
  307. [3:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: yeah go ahead and post
  308. [3:08 PM] Acgamer28: ok i'm posting rn
  309. [3:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I wasn't seeing anything constructive which is why I was wanting to move along
  310. [3:08 PM] David V. Kimball: @Eexey thank you for saying the one reasonable thing I've seen so far.
  311. [3:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: but if you guys have stuff to add
  312. [3:08 PM] Xtra: I can't trust someone who doesn't even know the rules to be admin
  313. [3:09 PM] isachu: eexey i would not want a transphobic admin nor would i want a misogynist and racist president
  314. [3:09 PM] Eexey: And that's fair
  315. [3:09 PM] Serpent ∞ King: (too bad)
  316. [3:09 PM] Acgamer28: i feel like i'm playing devil's advocate here even saying this, but this is a point to consider: it would not be farfetched to look at OT's opinions as reprehensible. we can try to educate him better if he is just genuinely ignorant, but if this is how OT is, then to some level we simply cannot, nor have the right to, try forcibly changing it.
  317.  
  318. recall that before this incident occured, OT came to power with basically unanimous support. that, and other personal experiences i'm sure we've all shared with OT at some point on the wiki, can attest to the fact that he is an objectively skilled editor who wants to improve the wiki. one who has contributed to the wiki in a positive manner for a long time.
  319.  
  320. now this is a huge fuck up for him. i don't object to him being demoted and requiring a redemption period before reapplying, not in the slightest. but i don't think that, if matters come to this, he should be barred from possibly becoming an admin again due to his beliefs.
  321.  
  322. to put it shortly, i will bet money that each and every single of us in here has an opinion that another one of us will vehemently disagree with - none of which may be this serious but FUCK, the issue is still there. this attests to a greater property an objective admin should have - being able to demonstrate impartiality even with their own biases. all good admins should be able to work objectively and in a way that doesn't harm other editors
  323.  
  324. OT needs to demonstrate that he, even if we can't change his opinions, can act in a way that follows SW policy, and allows the recording of objective information to SW's benefit in the face of personal beliefs that do not support said info(edited)
  325. [3:10 PM] Zeckemyro: I would like some of the religious folks here to try and talk to him
  326. [3:10 PM] aidanzapunk: @Eexey
  327. 1. the wording very clearly implied being against respecting what trans people go by (gender, name, etc.). maybe I'm wrong, but that's the feeling I got.
  328. 2. semi-adding to this, semi-responding to this, I think the issue should be less "we can't allow someone with these opinions as an administrator", but rather "we can't allow someone with these opinions to let said opinions get in the way of them being an administrator"
  329. [3:10 PM] isachu: yeah aidan it was definitely that way
  330. [3:10 PM] Zeckemyro: since most of them in this chat agree their religion shouldn't go against basic human rights
  331. [3:11 PM] Acgamer28: i'm not overly religious anymore, but i was brought up catholic and have worked away from a few of its convictions (this being one of them)(edited)
  332. [3:11 PM] isachu: he made it clear he was against the smasher page being updated
  333. [3:11 PM] isachu: imo
  334. [3:11 PM] David V. Kimball: Just an honest question, how were his opinions getting in the way of doing his job?
  335. [3:11 PM] Acgamer28: an example has been posted directly above your post david
  336. [3:11 PM] Monado Boy: ...
  337. [3:12 PM] David V. Kimball: Maybe I missed it, can it be reposted?
  338. [3:12 PM] !Trupera: he mentions his opinions but when someone responds to him about it he tries to de escalate
  339. [3:12 PM] aidanzapunk: @David V. Kimball please see the top of the channel for a brief summary of the events that transpired.
  340. [3:12 PM] Serpent ∞ King: thanks for reading ...
  341. [3:12 PM] David V. Kimball: Can it be pinned?
  342. [3:12 PM] Serpent ∞ King: it's a few messages but I can pin the first one
  343.  
  344. 7
  345. Monado Boy pinned a message to this channel. See all the pins. 3:12 PM
  346.  
  347. 3
  348. [3:13 PM] Xtra: Good idea
  349. [3:13 PM] aidanzapunk: or Monado Boy can
  350. [3:13 PM] Monado Boy: done
  351. [3:13 PM] Voqéo: On the the topic of demotion, I think the wiki should implement a policy on how that should be handled. I have no problem with DF demoting him as we have no policy otherwise (to my knowledge), and I also have no problem with him having to reapply. And it seems most here understand what OT did was wrong and have no problems with the consequences that followed.
  352.  
  353. But to have the wiki prepared for another possible instance like this in the future, I think we should implement a policy for the process of demoting admins. Have it be called "Request for Demotion (RfD)" or something. I don't necessarily believe demotion of an admin should lay soley at the hands of bureaucrats. Just as becoming an admin is based on community approval, I believe demotion should be as well, and I think there should be a policy for if when we come to a point where enough people in the community believe an admin is acting wrong, the community should be able to start the process of potentially demoting that admin (or have a bureaucrat make that "RfD" to get that process started). If the community doesn't like the conduct of an admin, regardless of religious or political beliefs, the community should be able to make that decision as that should be their prerogative (just as they made them admin to begin with)(edited)
  354.  
  355. 5
  356. [3:13 PM] Eexey: @aidanzapunk
  357. I have my own take on it, and many of you share the same sentiment of his thoughts of being very disrespectful. We can argue on what his true intentions are, but that's for him to clarify completely. You can say that he's backpedaling, you can say that he's trying to save face, but is that what you're supposed to do? Defend yourself? I think if he lets all of his thoughts out and have questions presented against him, we can completely figure out his own beliefs. Perhaps he's not even that good at communicating at all and he just did a horrible job of it.
  358. 2. Yeah, that's what I thought. Leave his own personal beliefs to take an objective view, as what all editors should be able to do per SW.
  359. [3:13 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: My mom is religious though im not trying say something about this but literally gender isn’t just like hating. Christians are nice and believe in god. Trans people are still okay or fine, even if they’re just normal and fine citizens(edited)
  360. [3:13 PM] !Trupera: all im gonna say is if you have an opinion, you either start owning up to it or keep it to yourself
  361.  
  362. 5
  363. [3:13 PM] !Trupera: trying to e wishy washy makes it worse
  364. [3:13 PM] MHStarCraft: Should we still have religion into this?
  365. [3:13 PM] Monado Boy: nah
  366. [3:13 PM] Rdrfc: Could have probably picked a better channel title since IMO this isn't just about transgenderism
  367. [3:14 PM] Monado Boy: this is literally beyond religion tbh
  368. [3:14 PM] Zeckemyro: Religion is the reason OT gave for his opinions
  369. [3:14 PM] Acgamer28: i'm going to dip but if anyone has an error with the points i've made please @ me
  370. [3:14 PM] Cookies and Creme: Religion shouldn't have any say in this, coming from a Christian myself
  371.  
  372. 7
  373. [3:14 PM] Acgamer28: same cookies
  374. [3:14 PM] Monado Boy: i repeat again, theres no excuse for this behavior
  375. [3:14 PM] Serpent ∞ King: @Voqéo as with this, a demotion is likely something that would have to occur quickly
  376. [3:14 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Maybe just keep it personal, dont let out your own opinions out yourself(edited)
  377. [3:14 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Even if it’s public
  378. [3:14 PM] Serpent ∞ King: having a whole thing just doesn't allow this to happen
  379. [3:15 PM] Personguy: I haven't seen an admin get demoted before, so I assumed that demotion would be by community vote
  380. [3:15 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: You wouldn’t just say, “I dont like transgender” online or in public, it’ll or might create a drama
  381. [3:15 PM] Xtra: @Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃 I don't think that is really relevant, considering he said it probably thinking people would agree with him
  382. [3:15 PM] Rdrfc: I remember we have a page on a smasher that goes by "Free Palestine", and what are we going to do if someday we have an israeli admin?
  383.  
  384. 1
  385. [3:15 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Yeah
  386. [3:15 PM] Xtra: Like, he just said it so casually
  387. [3:15 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Maybe but yes
  388. [3:16 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: You don't need a lengthy discussion to conclude that someone who's supposed to be in a position of power shouldn't say things that are deeply offensive. That's not really subject to debate.
  389.  
  390. 7
  391. [3:16 PM] aidanzapunk: @Eexey while he did defend himself, the fact of the matter is how he did it, and the feel that I got was that he was more focused on the fact that he lost his admin status over the fact that he royally fucked up
  392.  
  393. 5
  394. [3:16 PM] awesomelink234: All I'm saying is to either keep your opinions to yourself or to face potential backlash if you don't.
  395. [3:16 PM] Eexey: fair
  396. [3:16 PM] Monado Boy: Im with miles on this one
  397. [3:16 PM] isachu: yeah he literally apologized for offending people
  398. [3:16 PM] Cookies and Creme: I think we all are
  399. [3:16 PM] isachu: that was it
  400. [3:16 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Im with everyone in this discussion
  401.  
  402. 1
  403. [3:16 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: But im not sure(edited)
  404. [3:16 PM] Voqéo: It wouldn't necessarily be lengthy, both in time and discussion. It would be the community making that quick decision should they choose to demote
  405. [3:17 PM] isachu: you would still need to coordinate it
  406. [3:17 PM] Xtra: I mean, I'm just saying, but if he reapplies, with this being a thing, I would vote no for him personally
  407. [3:17 PM] isachu: and that was at least somewhat done
  408. [3:17 PM] Serpent ∞ King: 3:16 PM] isachu: yeah he literally apologized for offending people
  409.  
  410. I did not get any sincerity out of that apology, only an attempt to save face
  411. [3:17 PM] aidanzapunk: also, on the topic of a supposed "RfD", I think it should be less like an RfA, and more like something on the admin noticeboard; I forget who it was, but someone tagged SK last night, asking to file a complaint
  412. [3:17 PM] isachu: there were members of the community who expressed discomfort
  413. [3:17 PM] isachu: me too SK
  414. [3:17 PM] isachu: thats what i was saying
  415. [3:17 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: Refer to people by their specified name and pronouns, and don't be shitty or weird about it. Intentionally failing to do so is unacceptable. I don't see any wiggle room on this subject.
  416. [3:17 PM] isachu: he was only sorry people were offended
  417. [3:17 PM] awesomelink234: Same honestly SK, I think he was just trying to damage control and failed miserably
  418. [3:17 PM] David V. Kimball:
  419. All I'm saying is to either keep your opinions to yourself or to face potential backlash if you don't.
  420. @awesomelink234
  421.  
  422. Just so I'm understanding this correctly, basically if you hold unpopular opinions, just don't share them? Just want to make sure I'm not misinterpreting your words
  423. [3:17 PM] isachu: not for saying it
  424. [3:17 PM] Voqéo: If the community makes someone an admin, it should have that power to remove adminship if they wish
  425.  
  426. 9
  427. [3:18 PM] Voqéo: Which would likely be approved in this instance
  428. [3:18 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Im just going to stay out of this because ima eat
  429. [3:18 PM] awesomelink234: @David V. Kimball Not that, I'm referring to ones like Toad's, that could cause backlash for you
  430. [3:18 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Lunch
  431. [3:18 PM] The Gamer 91: Maybe a role higher than admin?
  432. [3:18 PM] Monado Boy: ?
  433. [3:18 PM] isachu: there is, on the wiki
  434. [3:18 PM] Voqéo: That's bureaucrat
  435. [3:18 PM] aidanzapunk: two, technically
  436. [3:18 PM] Eexey: and Developer
  437. [3:18 PM] Xtra: BCrat
  438. [3:18 PM] isachu: on the discord only SK removes admins
  439. [3:18 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Developers too
  440. [3:19 PM] Serpent ∞ King: We could come up with something for RfD, but I don't think that it would be appropriate in all situations
  441. [3:19 PM] !Trupera: developers?
  442. [3:19 PM] Personguy: Remind me, when did OmegaToad become an admin?
  443. [3:19 PM] Serpent ∞ King: including this one
  444. [3:19 PM] David V. Kimball: @awesomelink234 right, so like unpopular opinions?
  445. [3:19 PM] awesomelink234: @!Trupera Like porplemontage
  446. [3:19 PM] Rdrfc:
  447. @awesomelink234
  448.  
  449. Just so I'm understanding this correctly, basically if you hold unpopular opinions, just don't share them? Just want to make sure I'm not misinterpreting your words
  450. @David V. Kimball not him but I agree with that, at least if you are in a position of power
  451. [3:19 PM] Cookies and Creme: Last Monday?
  452. [3:19 PM] MeleeBoi: Around last week
  453. [3:19 PM] Cookies and Creme: OT had it for 5 days
  454. [3:19 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: He just got it for an rfa
  455. [3:19 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: He wanted to be an admin
  456. [3:19 PM] David V. Kimball: @Rdrfc thanks for clarifying.
  457. [3:19 PM] Personguy: Gee, that didn't last long
  458. [3:20 PM] Serpent ∞ King: 3:18 PM] isachu: on the discord only SK removes admins
  459. I'll make it clear that that is a restriction by discord
  460. [3:20 PM] Xtra: What would have happened if he had been admin for a long time, say, a year
  461. [3:20 PM] Serpent ∞ King: not my choice
  462. [3:20 PM] aidanzapunk: same thing
  463. [3:20 PM] Xtra: A quick demotion wouldn't be as so fit
  464. [3:20 PM] Xtra: Ig
  465. [3:20 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: I learned "if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all" in elementary school. If someone can't hold their tongue before saying something bigoted, hateful, or otherwise hurtful, then that's on them.
  466. [3:20 PM] Xtra: I mean idk
  467. [3:20 PM] Cookies and Creme: If it's severe enough, yes
  468. [3:20 PM] Zeckemyro: Bureaucrat role on Discord perhaps
  469. [3:20 PM] isachu: yeah SK my bad
  470. [3:20 PM] Xtra: I just feel people might have been way more hesitant if it was a long time admin
  471. [3:20 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Due to our many supports we made him admin
  472. [3:20 PM] isachu: i shouldve said only you can remove them
  473. [3:20 PM] Timson: you can implement a bureaucrat role above admin
  474. [3:21 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Not realizing until it happened
  475. [3:21 PM] Voqéo: SK, it makes it so that if the community disapproves of an admin's behavior, they can do that on their own fruition. As opposed to trying to write new rules on "ok, what should be required to happen before demoting someone". This goes beyond the trans issue at hand and makes preparation for how this should be handled in the future regardless of the topic
  476. [3:21 PM] aidanzapunk: @Xtra if people are being hesitant on demoting someone with bigoted opinions then that's on them
  477. [3:21 PM] David V. Kimball: @Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One something I can get behind. But who defines bigoted, hateful, and hurtful? Is there a glossary or list somewhere?
  478. [3:21 PM] Xtra: Alright thanks that answers my question
  479. [3:21 PM] Eexey: Morals and society
  480. [3:21 PM] Timson: discord doesn't let you tamper with permissions when two users are on the same role level
  481. [3:21 PM] isachu: right voqeo but thats why we're writing them now
  482. [3:21 PM] isachu: so we dont have to in the future
  483. [3:21 PM] Serpent ∞ King: sure but I as crat need to be able to demote someone without going through a whole process
  484. [3:21 PM] Eexey: Essentially defines bigoted, hateful, and hurtful, and thus the definition changes as society progresses
  485. [3:21 PM] David V. Kimball: Something less vague than "morals" maybe?
  486. [3:21 PM] Serpent ∞ King: if necessary
  487. [3:21 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: If you have even the slightest hesitation that "maybe this would hurt somebody", maybe don't say it? It's not hard.
  488. [3:21 PM] awesomelink234: All I'm saying is if you're in a position of power or authority, you shouldn't be saying shit like that.
  489. [3:21 PM] Personguy: Is it possible we can have OmegaToad talk in this channel to at least try to defend himself?
  490. [3:22 PM] isachu: i think both users and bureaucrats should have the power
  491. [3:22 PM] Eexey: Basically. If someone gets their feelings hurt out of something, it's added to the collective mind of society
  492. [3:22 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: It's almost as if, when talking to people, you should generally be trying not to hurt people.
  493. [3:22 PM] !Trupera: @David V. Kimball if it offends someone, then it's offensive
  494. [3:22 PM] Cookies and Creme: I feel like we should have OT at least explain a bit more about his actions, although I believe our minds have already been set
  495. [3:22 PM] Rdrfc: I personally feel pretty liberal in the classical sense of the world about freedom of speech and I don't quite care that much about OT's opinions per se
  496.  
  497. But if you express a thought like that so carelessly in a position of power you shouldn't be surpised if people jump at your throat, and/or question your impartiality
  498. [3:22 PM] aidanzapunk: @Personguy OmegaToad should be able to view this channel, and everything we say in it
  499. [3:22 PM] Cookies and Creme: Nevertheless I don't believe he's getting admin back anytime soon
  500. [3:22 PM] Serpent ∞ King: agreed cookies
  501. [3:22 PM] !Trupera: and that's not just me pulling stuff out of my bum it's the actual definition
  502. [3:23 PM] awesomelink234: He represented SmashWiki as an admin, and anything negative he says reflects on the site. Same with every other admin.
  503. [3:23 PM] Rdrfc: I do not care about jumping at OT's throat, I care that his beliefs could cloud his judgement as an admin and potentially disrupy wiki operations
  504. [3:24 PM] Eexey: Agree
  505. [3:24 PM] Cookies and Creme: yeah
  506. [3:24 PM] Monado Boy: the issue is that his beliefs negate trans identities which is awful.
  507. [3:24 PM] Serpent ∞ King: That's why I apologized on behalf of smashwiki
  508. [3:24 PM] Acgamer28: You’ve basically summarized my entire take Rd
  509. [3:24 PM] David V. Kimball: @Rdrfc freedom of speech is so important. but in a controlled domain where you set rules, seeing limits on it is perfectly fine. I think we agree there. I just think it would be wiser if there was a clear set of expectations around what you can and can't say. Because everyone can offend someone, even if it's by accident. At what point do you just say "get over it?" Playing devil's advocate here, don't crucify me please. Lol
  510. [3:24 PM] Acgamer28: Very eloquent point, imo
  511. [3:24 PM] isachu: even if he was unbiased in decisions i would not feel comfortable on the wiki or discord
  512. [3:24 PM] Cookies and Creme: Also there is a difference between joking around and purposefully being offensive
  513. [3:25 PM] Voqéo: Along with David's comment above, that's why I think it should be a community decision to demote someone
  514. [3:25 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: There's a difference between "sorry, I genuinely didn't know that would be hurtful, I won't say it again" and "these are my beliefs, why are you getting angry at me for hurting your feelings"
  515. [3:25 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Let's put it this way
  516. [3:25 PM] Xtra: Definitely
  517. [3:25 PM] Eexey: And I think both are fine.
  518. [3:25 PM] Serpent ∞ King: If I had said those things
  519. [3:25 PM] Serpent ∞ King: as a seasoned editor and admin
  520. [3:26 PM] Serpent ∞ King: it's not really that much different?
  521. [3:26 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I rep smashwiki as much as he does
  522. [3:26 PM] aidanzapunk: it shouldn't matter how long someone has been an editor. an offensive comment is an offensive comment.
  523. [3:26 PM] David V. Kimball: @Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One so that I'm not misunderstanding you, you're basically saying admins and people in power are required to possess certain beliefs in order to lead? Just making sure I understand.
  524. [3:26 PM] Cookies and Creme: I'm just throwing this out: was there anything that OT could've done after saying that transphobic sentence that would've saved his adminship?
  525. [3:26 PM] Ixbran: Freedom of speech simply dictates that you're free to say what you want, like opposing corrupt government officials, and you won't instantly go to jail. However that doesn't protect you from facing the consequences of saying that inherently mean or nasty.
  526.  
  527. If you refuse to respect someone's gendered pronouns, that's fine. But don't be surprised when people give you shit for it. Play shit games, win shit prizes.
  528. [3:26 PM] Eexey: I wouldn't have seen it as anything more or less. Just a person saying his own opinion, whether or not that I agree with is my own
  529. [3:26 PM] Serpent ∞ King: an actual apology would have been nice cookies
  530. [3:26 PM] Rdrfc: OT is a seasoned editor btw, just was a fresh admin
  531. [3:27 PM] awesomelink234: How about an actual, not damage control apology?
  532. [3:27 PM] aidanzapunk: @David V. Kimball you are entirely missing the point. I say again, the issue isn't "you have to have these beliefs in order to be an admin," it's "you can't let biased beliefs cloud your judgement as an admin"
  533. [3:27 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: @David V. Kimball you're starting to sound like you're sealioning.
  534. [3:27 PM] Acgamer28: I think another chance at an apology + explanation would be good
  535. [3:27 PM] David V. Kimball: @Ixbran @Eexey thanks for adding nuance to the discussion.
  536. [3:28 PM] David V. Kimball: @Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One I'm not.
  537. [3:28 PM] Acgamer28: nailed it @aidanzapunk
  538. [3:28 PM] awesomelink234: Tbh I think he could try to apologize again, not sure how that would go though
  539. [3:28 PM] Rdrfc:
  540. @Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One so that I'm not misunderstanding you, you're basically saying admins and people in power are required to possess certain beliefs in order to lead? Just making sure I understand.
  541. @David V. Kimball i am not an admin and I would not agree with that
  542. [3:28 PM] Serpent ∞ King: not well as now we've demanded it
  543. [3:29 PM] Eexey: I'd like to see what he has to say for everything. That's all
  544. [3:29 PM] Cookies and Creme: Also, if we were going to allow him to reapply, how long should we wait before giving that option?
  545. [3:29 PM] Rdrfc: Bear with me because I am going to describe a controversial hypotetical scenario
  546. [3:29 PM] David V. Kimball: @aidanzapunk I don't really know what that means. Maybe I have a misunderstanding of what a belief is, but doesn't your worldview essentially dictate all of the decisions you make? Whether or not you attribute it to it, or make any utterance of it?
  547. [3:29 PM] Cookies and Creme: @David V. Kimball we all have controversial opinions, but it shouldn't be brought onto the wiki
  548. [3:29 PM] Acgamer28: Moreso, what ought he prove before he’s “redeemed” himself?
  549. [3:29 PM] aidanzapunk: @David V. Kimball you are absolutely sealioning.
  550. [3:29 PM] Cookies and Creme: It's kinda hard to redeem yourself like that online
  551. [3:30 PM] David V. Kimball: @Cookies and Creme Right, so again it just seems like people are suggesting that if you're in a position of power, you just shouldn't share unpopular opinions, and that's what's being suggested here.
  552.  
  553. [3:30 PM] isachu: its not unpopular. its bigoted
  554.  
  555. 7
  556. [3:30 PM] Monado Boy: ^
  557. [3:30 PM] Cookies and Creme: ^
  558. [3:30 PM] isachu: and its not an opinion because its clearly wrong
  559. [3:30 PM] David V. Kimball: @aidanzapunk I'm not gonna lie I had to look up that term because I didn't know what I meant until today. I am not trolling.
  560. [3:30 PM] Timson: anything that attacks someone else for who they are, something intrinsic to their identity as a person should not be tolerated especially on a staff team. racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, making fun of people for having mental disorders etc. are all completely unacceptable and go beyond just usual disagreements, it's basically saying "I do not accept who you are as a person" which is extremely damaging, impairs a person's impartiality (as we saw with the discussions on hamyojo's pronouns) and, if levied against a particular user, is a personal attack.
  561. [3:30 PM] Cookies and Creme: We have a channel dedicated to controversial opinions
  562. [3:30 PM] Señor Mexicano: The statements he made were discriminatory against a group of people. I’m not sure why or how there’s any defense against that.
  563.  
  564. 5
  565.  
  566. [3:31 PM] isachu: once again its not an opinion! wish people would stop saying that
  567.  
  568. 4
  569. [3:31 PM] isachu: you cannot deny someone's existence based on their identity
  570.  
  571. 6
  572. [3:31 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I am allowed to have the opinion that sonic sucks. I am not allowed to have the opinion (or at least shouldn't voice it) that transgender is wrong
  573. [3:31 PM] aidanzapunk: seconding this
  574. [3:31 PM] Serpent ∞ King: That's what this is
  575. [3:31 PM] Acgamer28: It would be one thing for me to be king of the world and say “Fire Emblem sucks cock” but it would be another thing to say “This group of people are gross and an abomination upon the corporeal universe based on their identity alone”
  576. [3:31 PM] Serpent ∞ King: If you can't figure this out, there's little I can do for you
  577. [3:32 PM] Rdrfc: So, as of now, there are a lot of BLM charity tournaments going on, and we are covering them on the wiki.
  578. An admin could let himself slip a comment like "I support black rights but not BLM and I don't want to donate to charity in its favor" or even a more misinterpretable "All lives matter".
  579. If this admin starts disrupting the coverage of BLM charity smash tournaments then that's objectively a problem
  580. [3:33 PM] Acgamer28: Precisely Rd
  581. [3:33 PM] MHStarCraft: Quick: At least you shouldn't voice it.
  582. [3:33 PM] Serpent ∞ King: even then, best to keep that kind of stuff to yourself
  583. [3:33 PM] MHStarCraft: Keyphrase, not saying it to offend people.(edited)
  584. [3:33 PM] Xtra: Yeah
  585. [3:33 PM] Serpent ∞ King: So
  586. [3:33 PM] Acgamer28: It is not as much about holding unpopular opinions as much as it is about letting it impede your duty to act objectively and abiding by SW policy as an admin
  587.  
  588. 4
  589. [3:34 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Public request for demotion process, yes or no
  590. [3:34 PM] Rdrfc: In the first hypotetical scenario, an admin should not be demoted in my opinion just for saying "all lives matter", although granted what OT said was more offensive
  591. [3:34 PM] Acgamer28: And even then you gotta have some discretion in knowing “I’ll say this unpopular opinion because it won’t hurt/offend anybody”
  592. [3:34 PM] Voqéo: Yes
  593. [3:34 PM] DekZek: The demotion (and therefore the main focus of the discussion) is not solely because OT64 held specific views, but because as an admin and therefore a public figure within the community, said views negatively impacted public perception of the wiki as a whole. In addition, the way those beliefs were presented created an uncertainty if they were capable of performing the duties of an Admin without letting said beliefs influence policy decisions.
  594. [3:34 PM] Acgamer28: Yes.
  595. [3:34 PM] isachu: yes SK but that shouldnt be the only demotion method
  596. [3:34 PM] Monado Boy: yes
  597. [3:34 PM] Xtra: Yes and no, don't force a request every time, but allow it to happen
  598. [3:35 PM] Xtra: Like, don't make that the only way to be demoted
  599. [3:35 PM] !Trupera: yeah @Serpent ∞ King
  600. [3:35 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Yeah if we do this, crats reserve the ability to demote without a discussion
  601. [3:35 PM] Acgamer28: in the event of a Balls to the Wall scenario there should be a sort of emergency option but 90% of the time we should be voting
  602. [3:35 PM] Xtra: Alright, then yeah that's pretty good
  603. [3:35 PM] Voqéo: Admins come to power by the community, they should be stripped of that power by the community
  604. [3:35 PM] Acgamer28: Precisely @Serpent ∞ King
  605. [3:35 PM] Rdrfc: Yes, absolutely, more transparency and community involvement is always good
  606. [3:35 PM] aidanzapunk: @Serpent ∞ King I reiterate my idea of it being less of an RfA and more of a "hey, this needs to happen now"
  607. [3:36 PM] Your Senpai, Iron Warrior: I just noticed this chat but yes
  608. [3:36 PM] Serpent ∞ King: yeah could be like that
  609. [3:36 PM] Rdrfc: Please only invoke the nuclear option in absolutely extreme cases
  610.  
  611. 6
  612. [3:36 PM] aidanzapunk: ^
  613. [3:36 PM] aidanzapunk: that's what I meant
  614. [3:36 PM] Acgamer28: I think we’re gravitating towards something of a consensus here but can I present something of a hypothetical here?
  615. [3:37 PM] Voqéo: RfD. Request for Demotion and then the people present their case for why that should happen
  616. [3:37 PM] Serpent ∞ King: sure
  617. [3:37 PM] Señor Mexicano: As I stated elsewhere, I think any discriminatory comments of any kind should be grounds for immediate demotion.
  618. [3:37 PM] David V. Kimball: Before I get accused of something that I don't belief or adding to a discussion in a way that I'm not any further, I'd just like to say I respect the admins' decisions, esp the server owner's, since ultimately this is their Discord, and even if I don't personally agree with how they're handling it, that doesn't matter quite frankly. But thanks for opening up the discussion to us anyway, I appreciate also contending with dissenting opinions, I don't see that often. Best of luck in making your final decision.
  619.  
  620. 3
  621. [3:37 PM] Rdrfc: The devil advocate in me thinks that even this case might not have actually been THAT extreme although I would have absolutely voted at least for a temporary demotion
  622.  
  623. 3
  624. [3:37 PM] Acgamer28: If the RfD had been implemented when this entire scenario occurred, would the community have opted to incur an RfD or the nuclear option against OT?
  625. [3:38 PM] Voqéo: I would've said RfD
  626. [3:38 PM] isachu: im just wondering who in this chat is actually trans, or at least LGBTQ
  627. [3:38 PM] Cookies and Creme: I feel like it would've been better if OT actually apologized for the view instead of a fake face-saving apology. In that case I would say temporary
  628. [3:38 PM] Zeckemyro: OT64 let his bigottery in the open more than once
  629. [3:38 PM] Voqéo: The nuclear option would be like if the admin starts mass blocking everone or something
  630. [3:38 PM] Voqéo: Or mass deleting articles
  631. [3:38 PM] Acgamer28: Yeah, like destructive action
  632. [3:38 PM] Cookies and Creme: Or Galarto
  633. [3:38 PM] Acgamer28: Ok brb
  634. [3:39 PM] aidanzapunk: @isachu representing the surprisingly often overlooked ace community loud and proud
  635. [3:39 PM] Cookies and Creme: Ace is asexual right?
  636. [3:39 PM] DekZek: is also Ace
  637. [3:39 PM] DekZek: Yes.
  638. [3:39 PM] Cookies and Creme: oi
  639. [3:39 PM] aidanzapunk: indeed
  640. [3:39 PM] Disaster Flare: I suppose I'll use this moment to come out and say I'm bi.
  641. [3:39 PM] isachu: the main question is trans
  642. [3:40 PM] aidanzapunk: you did say "or at least LGBTQ"
  643. [3:40 PM] Zeckemyro: you did
  644. [3:40 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I think this is a bit irrelevant anyway
  645. [3:40 PM] isachu: its relevant to a point i want to make
  646. [3:40 PM] Monado Boy: im not trans or lgbt but i am an ally(edited)
  647. [3:41 PM] Voqéo: I mean, I think we all agree what he said was inappropriate; especially as an admin. There's not much else to say other than how things should be handled in the future(edited)
  648. [3:41 PM] Xtra: @isachu I'm pan and Non-binary(edited)
  649. [3:41 PM] !Trupera: i'm glad that this place isn't twitter and we can have an actual logical discussion. Breath of fresh air
  650. [3:42 PM] David V. Kimball: I honestly haven't found much logic in this discussion but it's been helpful to see the thought process behind the decision.
  651. [3:43 PM] Serpent ∞ King: isachu what was the point you were going to make?
  652. [3:43 PM] Cookies and Creme: Are we talking about our sexuality now or something?
  653. [3:43 PM] Cookies and Creme: straight btw
  654. [3:43 PM] Cookies and Creme: Nevertheless aren't we gonna have a proposal for RfD on the wiki
  655. [3:43 PM] Rdrfc:
  656. The nuclear option would be like if the admin starts mass blocking everone or something
  657. @Voqéo in my opinion the limit for an admin in the realm of expression and beliefs is using actual racial or sexist slurs, or other heavily offensive language, which is something that OT didn't do
  658. [3:43 PM] aidanzapunk: isachu is making a point regarding who in this server is trans/LGBTQIA
  659. [3:44 PM] Cookies and Creme: oh my bad
  660. [3:44 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: The point is that it doesn’t matter about sexuality
  661. [3:44 PM] Cookies and Creme: sorry about that comment then
  662. [3:44 PM] Voqéo: Sure, that could be one of the nuclear options
  663. [3:44 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Its okay
  664. [3:44 PM] Voqéo: I just think this instance would've been a call for the RfD idea(edited)
  665. [3:45 PM] Cookies and Creme: Anyways should we let this channel be open for a few more hours to see if OT has any input?
  666. [3:45 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I'd rather have anyone willing to openly share opinions like that out of staff ranks asap tbh
  667. [3:45 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Yes
  668. [3:45 PM] Voqéo: Someone ping him?
  669. [3:45 PM] Serpent ∞ King: (this will be archived and deleted btw)
  670. [3:46 PM] isachu: i'll go on the assumption im the only trans person currently here then (xtra might understand)
  671. as much as i hate to make a point like this, if youre cis, you probably wont understand how uncomfortable me or any other trans person would be around someone who is transphobic. there is no way i could ever truly feel comfortable on the wiki or server if there was a transphobic admin, even if they kept their views to themselves
  672. [3:46 PM] isachu: its nothing against you
  673. [3:46 PM] Cookies and Creme: Erika is trans
  674. [3:46 PM] isachu: i just dont think you could really understand it
  675. [3:46 PM] Voqéo: Plague von Karma is trans, but no longer here
  676. [3:46 PM] Xtra: NB is a a type of trans, and yeah I feel the same way
  677. [3:46 PM] Zeckemyro: there was also another trans person earlier
  678. [3:46 PM] Cookies and Creme: Also someone here just said they were. Her name was rebecca?
  679. [3:47 PM] Serpent ∞ King: revbecca I think
  680. [3:47 PM] isachu: well still
  681. [3:47 PM] isachu: i said "if youre cis"
  682. [3:47 PM] Rdrfc: Yeah plague leaving was very unfortunate
  683. [3:48 PM] Zeckemyro: well OmegaToad is also homophobic as seen by his comment about Pride Month
  684. [3:48 PM] erika strawberry: oh hey a trans chatroom
  685. [3:48 PM] isachu: yeah zecke(edited)
  686. [3:48 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Yep
  687. [3:48 PM] !Trupera: @Cookies and Creme he said he's going afk
  688. [3:48 PM] Voqéo: Well, maybe the RfD idea should just be a proposal on the wiki in general anyway, but I think this instance would've been a great example if it happened with it under effect
  689. [3:48 PM] Rdrfc: We lost, even if temporarily, a valuable contributor, this is why I said that admins should be extra careful with their language
  690. [3:48 PM] Cookies and Creme: probably for the best. He did get a lot of heat in the last 24 hours
  691. [3:48 PM] erika strawberry: welcome to my house as you can see i've knocked over a lot of chairs from getting so tilted at the towers
  692. [3:48 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: It was like that as usually said
  693. [3:49 PM] erika strawberry: sorry i should probably catch up on the actual discussion
  694. [3:49 PM] Cookies and Creme: It's pinned
  695. [3:49 PM] Cookies and Creme: tl;dr OT said some transphobic things, tried saving face, and lost his adminship
  696. [3:49 PM] Rdrfc: On the other hand, if we are too tough on personal opinions we will lose valuable contributors for the opposite reasons
  697.  
  698. 1
  699. [3:49 PM] Monado Boy: isachu im with you 100% dw
  700. [3:49 PM] erika strawberry: ah. that's too bad
  701. [3:49 PM] Cookies and Creme: There's a difference between opinions and bigotry
  702. [3:49 PM] erika strawberry: i'm also trans so that's disappointing
  703. [3:49 PM] isachu: yeah i know elf
  704. [3:50 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I'm straight but have gay friends, so I kind of get it
  705. [3:50 PM] isachu: youre probably further from it but im sure you still couldnt TRULY understand
  706. [3:50 PM] Serpent ∞ King: but no I couldn't know how anyone in the lgbt community feels
  707. [3:50 PM] Disaster Flare: @erika strawberry Ayy Snapcube reference.
  708. [3:51 PM] Rdrfc:
  709. There's a difference between opinions and bigotry
  710. @Cookies and Creme there is, but unfortunately these days it can be hard to know exactly where to place the line
  711. [3:51 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: I’m asexual but sometimes there are times that there are people that can be whoever they want to be. If the lgbt community actually saw this, then what would happen...
  712. [3:51 PM] Rdrfc: Refer to my BLM hypotetical above for example
  713. [3:51 PM] Cookies and Creme: That is true
  714. [3:51 PM] Serpent ∞ King: alright at this point we aren't getting anywhere
  715. [3:52 PM] isachu: you cant have an opinion on this
  716. [3:52 PM] Cookies and Creme: Kinda why I keep a lot to myself just in case I come off as bigot on accident
  717. [3:52 PM] isachu: if you oppose trans and lgbtq people, you are bigoted
  718. [3:52 PM] isachu: very simple
  719. [3:52 PM] David V. Kimball:
  720.  
  721. [3:52 PM] Serpent ∞ King: does anyone have anything constructive to add here before we EoD?
  722. [3:52 PM] isachu: david i'll be honest with you right now
  723. [3:52 PM] isachu: no one cares
  724. [3:52 PM] Personguy: I thought by now we'd have a consensus
  725. [3:52 PM] MHStarCraft: Aside from the fact that we went offtopic a little, no.
  726. [3:52 PM] MHStarCraft: What's done is done.
  727. [3:52 PM] isachu: anyways my point is
  728. [3:52 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: I just wish people have a good day here, even if their gender and sexuality thing, we just wish there are no problems here.
  729. [3:52 PM] isachu: someone who is transphobic, homophobic, racist, sexist, should not be admin
  730.  
  731. 3
  732. [3:53 PM] isachu: even if they leave it out of the wiki
  733. [3:53 PM] isachu: thats how i feel
  734. [3:53 PM] Disaster Flare: I personally agree.
  735. [3:53 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Wish you luck on whoever is doing this drama or kinds of stuff they have on each other
  736. [3:53 PM] Disaster Flare: If they have any sort of negative bias, it can still leak onto the wiki.
  737. [3:53 PM] Cookies and Creme: Also, please only post controversial stuff in the series topics section. This is SmashWiki, not OpinionWiki(edited)
  738. [3:54 PM] Personguy: Smashers should have their specified names and pronouns on their pages, and admins should not let their personal beliefs and opinions get in the way of wiki operations
  739.  
  740. [3:54 PM] Serpent ∞ King: This channel has the same rules as serious topics
  741. [3:54 PM] Personguy: And demotion should be voted by the community
  742. [3:54 PM] Cookies and Creme: I would like to quickly say that if I accidentally mess up the pronouns it's because I didn't know
  743. [3:54 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: But more in depth
  744. [3:54 PM] isachu: they shouldnt be admin if their "opinion" is transphobic or etc(edited)
  745. [3:54 PM] Personguy: Yes
  746. [3:54 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Of pobics
  747. [3:54 PM] Cookies and Creme: ^
  748. [3:54 PM] isachu: even if it doesnt get in the way of wiki operations
  749. [3:54 PM] isachu: thats the important part of my point
  750. [3:55 PM] isachu: we all agree on the first half
  751. [3:55 PM] MHStarCraft: It isn't good representation agree.
  752. [3:55 PM] Serpent ∞ King: meh if they keep their trap shut...
  753. [3:55 PM] isachu: SK again i dont think you could understand
  754. [3:55 PM] !Trupera: obviously agree on the first half but meh on the second
  755. [3:55 PM] Voqéo: I mean, how would you know unless they actually expressed those views?
  756. [3:55 PM] Personguy: The thing is, tons of people have disagreeable thoughts, but they don't announce them, so no problems emerge from that
  757. [3:55 PM] Serpent ∞ King: if they don't do or say anything transphobic, how would we even know?
  758.  
  759. 1
  760. [3:55 PM] Señor Mexicano: An argument can be made that people deserve their own opinions, but if those opinions are those of discrimination and prejudice, then they shouldn't have a place on the wiki.(edited)
  761.  
  762. 2
  763. [3:56 PM] Personguy: This is in general
  764. [3:56 PM] Cookies and Creme: yes
  765. [3:56 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: We will know in the future
  766. [3:56 PM] Voqéo: Up until now, noone suspected this of OT because he was silent about his views
  767. [3:56 PM] isachu: they could express it off wiki or irrelevant to the wiki or something
  768. [3:56 PM] Rdrfc: On the dead name thing, I don't think a special rule is needed, if you think about it it is just like any other personal information that the smasher does not wish to be public
  769. [3:56 PM] isachu: but if it comes out they should be demoted
  770. [3:56 PM] Zeckemyro: well if it never comes up in administrative decisions
  771. [3:56 PM] Zeckemyro: what's the issue
  772. [3:56 PM] Cookies and Creme: Well tbf he wasn't on Discord either so we wouldn't know
  773. [3:56 PM] Serpent ∞ King: oh ok yeah
  774. [3:56 PM] Zeckemyro: you never know so it's never a problem
  775. [3:56 PM] Serpent ∞ King: offwiki stuff is actually more serious than onwiki
  776. [3:56 PM] Zeckemyro: OT made the mistakes of openly speaking against it
  777. [3:56 PM] erika strawberry: i mean yeah obviously if they keep it to themselves we won't know. it's not good to be bigoted regardless, but if they're vocal about it, that's when it's time to take action. y'know
  778.  
  779. 3
  780. [3:56 PM] Serpent ∞ King: especially if you parade that affiliation around
  781. [3:56 PM] isachu: im saying we find a twitter account or something
  782. [3:57 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: But they’re still serious, as an opinion of act
  783. [3:57 PM] Personguy: Not everyone uses Twitter
  784. [3:57 PM] Serpent ∞ King: still have to be careful that the twitter or whatever actually belongs to them
  785. [3:57 PM] aidanzapunk: a background check might be useful, actually
  786. [3:57 PM] erika strawberry: but even if it's a "not related to wiki administration" thing, i think i wouldn't be comfortable with a homophobic or transphobic admin.
  787. [3:57 PM] Señor Mexicano: yeah i was about to say that
  788. [3:57 PM] erika strawberry: especially since there are like, trans smashers and all that
  789. [3:57 PM] isachu: yeah aidan that was what i was thinking
  790. [3:57 PM] Señor Mexicano: Would be good practice to look into their history before deciding to promote.
  791. [3:58 PM] isachu: a background check would be good
  792. [3:58 PM] Personguy: If they do use accounts on other sites, they may use different names
  793. [3:58 PM] Señor Mexicano: Specifically other wikis, forums, social media, etc.
  794. [3:58 PM] isachu: any known accounts should be checked
  795. [3:58 PM] Serpent ∞ King: to be clear
  796. [3:58 PM] Cookies and Creme: Speaking of adminship, Erika I saw you got adminship on WiKirby; congrats for that
  797.  
  798. 3
  799. [3:58 PM] erika strawberry: the wiki's been very bad about handling this kind of thing in the past
  800. [3:58 PM] Serpent ∞ King: when I promote, I go through edits and discord
  801. [3:58 PM] Señor Mexicano: Though a line should be set to prevent it from being downright stalking.
  802. [3:58 PM] erika strawberry: i did! thank you very much
  803.  
  804. 3
  805. [3:58 PM] MHStarCraft: Yee Congrats!
  806. [3:58 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Congratulations!
  807. [3:58 PM] isachu: senor if we make it known that an admin will look through or something they should expect it
  808. [3:58 PM] Voqéo: I'm just saying, everyone thought of OT as being this upstanding guy and got universal support for RfA. It wasn't until he actually expressed himself that his beliefs came to light. But otherwise, we wouldn't have known
  809. [3:59 PM] Señor Mexicano: That's fair, tbh im not even sure what i meant by that lol.
  810. [3:59 PM] Voqéo: So it's just not really enforcable
  811. [3:59 PM] erika strawberry: well yeah. opinions change after new information comes to light
  812. [3:59 PM] MHStarCraft: Has he said anything homophobic before he passed his RfA?
  813. [3:59 PM] Cookies and Creme: not that I know of
  814. [3:59 PM] Señor Mexicano: To our knowledge, no.
  815. [3:59 PM] Monado Boy: if you want me to be honest, i thought he got admin way too soon compared to how long hes been in the server
  816. [4:00 PM] Cookies and Creme: Actually SK recommended him to join this server because of his RfA
  817. [4:00 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I don't think that going through a twitter is invasion of privacy because it's all publicly viewable anyway
  818. [4:00 PM] Zeckemyro: adminship is on the wiki first
  819. [4:00 PM] Serpent ∞ King: anyone could
  820. [4:00 PM] isachu: yeah SK i agree
  821. [4:00 PM] Monado Boy: ohhh i see
  822. [4:00 PM] erika strawberry: do we know how old OT is? just out of curiosity
  823. [4:00 PM] Serpent ∞ King: not for sure no
  824. [4:00 PM] MHStarCraft: I was thinking about that.
  825. [4:00 PM] aidanzapunk: some people do have twitter accounts locked and imo that defeats the purpose of a Twitter but point still stands that it's basically all public info
  826. [4:01 PM] erika strawberry: i feel like it could definitely be like a "parroting what i hear around me without actually critically thinking" case if they're younger
  827. [4:01 PM] Rdrfc:
  828. Has he said anything homophobic before he passed his RfA?
  829. @MHStarCraft he actually apparently did it once on this server, a relatively mild comment by comparison but still
  830. [4:01 PM] Señor Mexicano: I don't think he's that young.
  831. [4:01 PM] Cookies and Creme: He has stated he was homeschooled, so it may be moreso family influence
  832. [4:01 PM] erika strawberry: yeah that's what i figured too but i wanted to bring that up
  833. [4:01 PM] MHStarCraft: Oh boy...
  834. [4:01 PM] erika strawberry: yeah
  835. [4:01 PM] Señor Mexicano: In fact, based on mannerisms and interests, I imagined he was actually pretty old.
  836. [4:01 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Oh...
  837. [4:01 PM] isachu: if he can be educated and changes views he should be able to reapply
  838. [4:01 PM] MHStarCraft: That could have hurt his chances either way.
  839. [4:01 PM] Serpent ∞ King: whatever excuse you want to make
  840. [4:01 PM] Serpent ∞ King: it doesn't matter
  841. [4:01 PM] Voqéo: Ok, so does OT have a Twitter? And if so, has he said anything trans/homophobic that would've otherwise failed a RfA "background check"?(edited)
  842. [4:02 PM] Serpent ∞ King: things were still said
  843. [4:02 PM] Serpent ∞ King: that shouldn't have been
  844. [4:02 PM] aidanzapunk: I feel like there's more emphasis on OmegaToad having a twitter than there should be
  845. [4:02 PM] Zeckemyro: changing views is difficult
  846. [4:02 PM] MHStarCraft: @isachu As in he should completely abandon his phobic views?
  847. [4:02 PM] isachu: i mean.. yes
  848. [4:02 PM] Rdrfc:
  849.  
  850. [4:02 PM] Personguy: He's on Wikibound
  851. [4:02 PM] Rdrfc: He said this once, judge as you wish
  852. [4:02 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Maybe we should tell Wikibound about this...
  853. [4:02 PM] erika strawberry: regardless yes the background check shouldn't be as much of a priority right now
  854. [4:03 PM] isachu: i believe they know
  855. [4:03 PM] Serpent ∞ King: they are aware
  856. [4:03 PM] !Trupera: background check
  857. [4:03 PM] !Trupera: ?
  858. [4:03 PM] Personguy: This was just a quick search
  859. [4:03 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I was in DMs this morning
  860. [4:03 PM] Cookies and Creme: So is this going to affect his entire presence on NIWA(edited)
  861. [4:03 PM] Voqéo: Like, if we're going to try to use this background check idea, let's try it right now on OT. Besides the above screenie, has he said anything bigoted outside SmashWiki on social media?
  862. [4:03 PM] !Trupera: how do you background check for harmful prejeduice(edited)
  863. [4:03 PM] Zeckemyro: I think it's important to say OT shouldn't be outright banned as he never went against anything edit-wise
  864. [4:03 PM] erika strawberry: saying this kind of thing During pride month is, really, :/
  865. [4:03 PM] Zeckemyro: but he should not have power
  866. [4:03 PM] aidanzapunk: I, again, feel like that's a derail on the conversation
  867. [4:03 PM] isachu: yeah obviously not banned(edited)
  868. [4:03 PM] isachu: but out of power
  869. [4:04 PM] Cookies and Creme: He lost adminship on WikiBound as well?
  870. [4:04 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Not that I am aware
  871. [4:04 PM] Jet: He said that on the same day he got promoted
  872. [4:04 PM] awesomelink234: No not yet, and idk if he will(edited)
  873. [4:04 PM] isachu: however i think he should be on thin ice in terms of being banned
  874. [4:04 PM] isachu: if he continues sharing these views there should be punishment as a user as well
  875. [4:04 PM] Serpent ∞ King: let's steer away from the B word
  876. [4:05 PM] Serpent ∞ King: that isn't the topic
  877. [4:05 PM] isachu: i just wanted to add it quickly
  878. [4:05 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Besides well might not be sure about Wikibound knowing about this stuff that we’re talking about, though as a claim we should notify but they might know about what we’re saying or anything happens
  879. [4:05 PM] isachu: they know
  880. [4:05 PM] Serpent ∞ King: ...what?
  881. [4:06 PM] Personguy: He's also on Super Mario Wiki
  882. [4:06 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Yeah not really a topic...
  883. [4:06 PM] isachu: yeah i had a hard time following that message
  884. [4:06 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I can't understand that
  885. [4:06 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: And Pokémon wiki too
  886. [4:06 PM] Hinata: whoa, what's happening here
  887.  
  888. i read up on the pinned messages but what's the topic right now
  889. [4:06 PM] Serpent ∞ King: This is smashwiki let's talk about smashwiki
  890.  
  891. 1
  892. [4:06 PM] aidanzapunk: truthfully I can't even tell myself
  893. [4:07 PM] Serpent ∞ King: this is off rails rn
  894. [4:07 PM] Xtra: Yeah
  895. [4:07 PM] Cookies and Creme: ^
  896. [4:07 PM] isachu: lets set a topic then
  897. [4:07 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: OmegaToad and his now seen Trans though we don’t want any further consequences here
  898. [4:07 PM] isachu: the so-called background checks?(edited)
  899. [4:07 PM] awesomelink234: I don't even know what we're discussing rn, but it was supposed to be about an admin who got removed for transphobic comments(edited)
  900. [4:07 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: So, now what
  901. [4:07 PM] Cookies and Creme: Hinata we're basically still discussing OT
  902. [4:07 PM] Voqéo: So, let's step back in time to when OT first made his RfA. Let's also imagine the background check proposal is in place. So he just made his RfA and now it's time for a background check. Where else has he expressed bigoted views on social media? Idk for sure, but I'm guessing he hasn't.
  903. [4:07 PM] Hinata: yeah, i saw the posts about OT, that's fucked up
  904. [4:08 PM] isachu: i dont know of any twitter
  905. [4:08 PM] Cookies and Creme: He hasn't afaik
  906. [4:08 PM] Hinata: i was just wondering if that was still the topic or not
  907. [4:08 PM] Cookies and Creme: I don't believe he has Twitter(edited)
  908. [4:08 PM] isachu: if someone else does please mention(edited)
  909. [4:08 PM] Señor Mexicano: As far as I can remember, he doesn't really use social media?
  910. [4:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: ^
  911. [4:08 PM] Voqéo: If we want to see if this background check idea works, right now is a great case study with OT
  912. [4:08 PM] Personguy: I thought it was supposed to be what to do to prevent stuff like this from happening again
  913. [4:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Guys
  914. [4:08 PM] Señor Mexicano: Or if he does then they aren't really linked to anything wiki related.
  915. [4:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I already background check candidates
  916. [4:08 PM] erika strawberry: honestly again i do not think discussing a background check is necessary right now
  917. [4:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: whatever there is to check
  918. [4:08 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I do
  919. [4:08 PM] Voqéo: So he passed the BC?
  920. [4:08 PM] Rdrfc: Yeah how are you supposed to background check someone who doesn't use any social media lmao
  921.  
  922. 1
  923. [4:08 PM] Cookies and Creme: Obviously
  924. [4:09 PM] erika strawberry: the point is, OT said something homophobic and that disqualified him from becoming an admin. the same thing would happen if anyone else did it.
  925. [4:09 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Yes I found nothing that would suggest homophobia in the BC
  926. [4:09 PM] isachu: ah SK i wasnt aware
  927. [4:09 PM] isachu: rdrfc it wont always work but it'll help a lot
  928. [4:09 PM] Rdrfc: You can only background check on wiki in cases like that and unless someone straight up wrote stuff like that in their user space it wouldn't come out
  929. [4:10 PM] !Trupera: oh, hi ot
  930. [4:10 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Or A Developer or Bureaucrat
  931. [4:10 PM] Hinata:
  932. Yeah how are you supposed to background check someone who doesn't use any social media lmao
  933. that was probably his plan to get around this
  934.  
  935. he knew there was no way for you to background check him so he felt confident in applying for admin
  936. [4:10 PM] Serpent ∞ King: If there is a twitter/facebook I am aware of, I check through it
  937. [4:10 PM] erika strawberry: the discord server has to be considered because it's part of the smashwiki umbrella along with the wiki itself
  938. [4:10 PM] Cookies and Creme: Eh I wouldn't assume something that bad Hinata
  939. [4:10 PM] Voqéo: But before this channel gets closed as it seems to be getting soon. What came of this, and what does it fully entail?(edited)
  940.  
  941. [4:10 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: They are the most social platforms we’re aware about too(edited)
  942. [4:10 PM] !Trupera: @Hinata keep that to yourself
  943. [4:10 PM] aidanzapunk: reminder that OmegaToad can see this channel
  944. [4:10 PM] Hinata: just a theory
  945. [4:10 PM] isachu: hinata im not sure he thought like that
  946. [4:10 PM] Cookies and Creme: He's seeing this right now as well
  947. [4:11 PM] Xtra: Can he type?
  948. [4:11 PM] Zeckemyro: Yes
  949. [4:11 PM] Cookies and Creme: He is right now
  950. [4:11 PM] isachu: not everyone is that.. conniving ?
  951. [4:11 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I don't think this was premeditated or anything
  952. [4:11 PM] isachu: maybe thats the right word
  953. [4:11 PM] MHStarCraft: Yes to the demotion process.
  954. [4:11 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Umm...
  955. [4:11 PM] OmegaToad64: Alright I though long and hard on what I'm going to say. My goal is to clarify things about my beliefs and hopefully earn the trust of the userbase back. I going to ask you to at least allow me to fully say everything I want to say before passing any judgement up on me.
  956.  
  957. 2
  958. [4:11 PM] Hinata: someone who's that open with being anti-trans? gotta have your thoughts
  959. [4:11 PM] Zeckemyro: Go ahead
  960.  
  961. 3
  962. [4:11 PM] awesomelink234: Go ahead
  963. [4:11 PM] Cookies and Creme: Sure
  964. [4:11 PM] Xtra: Alright, noone send any msgs, just let him talk
  965. [4:11 PM] Serpent ∞ King: @Voqéo I think something like that should be discussed on wiki tbh
  966. [4:11 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Let him be
  967. [4:11 PM] Serpent ∞ King: not everyone is here
  968. [4:12 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Alright then
  969. [4:12 PM] Serpent ∞ King: everyone shut up except omega toad
  970. [4:12 PM] OmegaToad64: Last night I have put a bad name upon myself as a staff member of SmashWiki. It began with a comment implying disgust towards a trans smasher. It released a flood of backlash resulting in me having a panic attack, I put a picture of my boy Oliver to show my "Oh god what did I just do?!" reaction, and it all went downhill from there. As a staff member, my job is to discuss the problems in a civil manner and resolve the situation, which what I did was the exact opposite. In particular, while I do not support the lgbt, my comment saying "I am against them" was a very boneheaded response, as it shows that I put discrimination upon such people. All of this resulted in a demotion that could have otherwise easily been avoided had I not acted foolishly. What I did made a fool of myself and the staff of SmashWiki, it has stained my own reputation as well as the reputation of our community.
  971. [4:13 PM] erika strawberry: thank you for your apology, but "not supporting" LGBT and "being against" LGBT are the same thing.
  972.  
  973. 7
  974. [4:13 PM] Xtra: What do you mean by not supporting LGBT
  975. [4:13 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: It’s true tho
  976. [4:13 PM] awesomelink234: Not to be rude or anything but honestly I think you could've handled it better
  977. [4:13 PM] Hinata: yeah, your apology is kinda invalid when you include "i don't support lgbt" in it
  978. [4:13 PM] OmegaToad64: But worst of all, what I did not only put a bad name upon myself, the staff, and the community, but upon my own religious belief as a Christian. In the New Testiment Jesus came into the world not to condemn the unrighteous, but to call them to repentance. As a Christian, what I did contradicted my own role of being a man of God. My job is not to discriminate the people I did last night, but to help such people. I prayed to my heavenly Father asking for forgiveness, and that is what I ask of you people right now: Forgiveness. While my goal is to regain my position as staff, my first step before that is to regain the trust of the community. Until then I am greatly remorseful for the trouble I have caused last night, and I hope to gain the forgiveness of the userbase as well as my Father. I apologize deeply for the trouble I have caused. Thank you for reading this.
  979. [4:13 PM] isachu:
  980. All of this resulted in a demotion that could have otherwise easily been avoided had I not acted foolishly
  981. this implies youre only sorry you got caught pretty much
  982. [4:13 PM] Hinata: you can spin it any way you want, but if you're not with us, you're against us
  983. [4:13 PM] Cookies and Creme: I feel like the penalty would've been less if you didn't try backpedaling
  984. [4:13 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Maybe like saying a bit nicer
  985. [4:13 PM] Cookies and Creme: hold up guys
  986. [4:13 PM] isachu: i dont think so cookies
  987. [4:14 PM] MHStarCraft: Refused to acknowledge that you're in the wrong here.(edited)
  988. [4:14 PM] MHStarCraft: No matter how many times you apologize.
  989. [4:14 PM] Serpent ∞ King:
  990. While my goal is to regain my position as staff
  991. [4:14 PM] Cookies and Creme: let me rephrase; he wouldn't get all this backlash if he didn't backpedal
  992. [4:14 PM] Serpent ∞ King: That is a steep hill
  993. [4:14 PM] Serpent ∞ King: not going to lie
  994. [4:14 PM] OmegaToad64: Yes. I was in the wrong
  995. [4:14 PM] Hinata: i'm in no position to be a judge on this situation, as i literally just got here
  996. [4:14 PM] Cookies and Creme: Still a lot but not like a volcano eruption
  997. [4:14 PM] isachu: this seems very insincere
  998. [4:14 PM] Zeckemyro: I'm not comfortable with someone who doesn't support my existence or the existence of many of my friends(edited)
  999.  
  1000. 4
  1001. [4:15 PM] Hinata: but your apology feels half-hearted, you sound like you're only sorry because you got caught, and in the middle of the apology you doubled down on "i don't support the LGBT community"
  1002.  
  1003. 5
  1004. [4:15 PM] MHStarCraft: Well, you still said that you were against LGBT.
  1005. [4:15 PM] OmegaToad64: I am asking for forgiveness.
  1006. [4:15 PM] Hinata: easier said than done, mate
  1007. [4:15 PM] Voqéo: You put on a nicer spin on being anti-lgbt(edited)
  1008. [4:15 PM] awesomelink234: Yes. You still said you didn't support the LGBTQ community, which doesn't exactly help your case here IMO.
  1009. [4:15 PM] Xtra: If you re apply, I will not support you in it, and, as zeck said, I don't want to support someone who is against my existence
  1010. [4:15 PM] isachu: then start by apologizing genuinely
  1011. [4:16 PM] Cookies and Creme: I feel like most of us are willing to forgive you if you're able to change your views
  1012. [4:16 PM] OmegaToad64: Please let me finish what I'm trying to say.
  1013. [4:16 PM] aidanzapunk: the fact that you made it very clear that your goal was to regain your staff position, rather than regaining the trust of the community (which absolutely should be your first and foremost priority) makes me think that you don't actually think you're apologizing.
  1014.  
  1015. 5
  1016. [4:16 PM] isachu: you said thank you for reading
  1017. [4:16 PM] erika strawberry: iiiii really don't like the implication that LGBT people are "unrighteous" but regardless in the bible jesus condemns pedophilia, not homosexuality. https://um-insight.net/perspectives/has-%E2%80%9Chomosexual%E2%80%9D-always-been-in-the-bible/
  1018. United Methodist Insight
  1019. Has 'Homosexual' Always Been in the Bible?
  1020. A scholar uncovers evidence that the Greek word translated as "homosexual" in modern versions of the Bible actually meant something quite different to its originators.
  1021.  
  1022.  
  1023. 7
  1024. [4:16 PM] Hinata: even in your apology you still can't muster up any genuine support for the community you lambasted
  1025. [4:16 PM] isachu: the only assumption was you were done
  1026. [4:16 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: You’re just justifying you’re claim I believe
  1027. [4:16 PM] MHStarCraft: As a pastor's kid, it probably doesn't say.
  1028. [4:16 PM] Hinata: also
  1029. [4:16 PM] Serpent ∞ King:
  1030. my first step before that is to regain the trust of the community.
  1031. [4:16 PM] Serpent ∞ King: @aidanzapunk
  1032. [4:17 PM] awesomelink234: I agree with Aidan here; if someone screws up and loses trust, their FIRST priority should be to regain that trust.
  1033. [4:17 PM] Zeckemyro: he's saying that the only reason he wants trust back is to be staff
  1034. [4:17 PM] Hinata:
  1035. In the New Testiment Jesus came into the world not to condemn the unrighteous, but to call them to repentance. As a Christian, what I did contradicted my own role of being a man of God. My job is not to discriminate the people I did last night, but to help such people.
  1036.  
  1037. this gives off very "pray the gay away" vibes, like the "help" you're trying to offer is "steering us straight"
  1038. [4:17 PM] Zeckemyro: so his priority is being staff
  1039. [4:17 PM] aidanzapunk: I saw that, but that doesn't change the fact that OmegaToad put "While my goal is to regain my position as staff" before saying "my first step before that is to regain the trust of the community."
  1040.  
  1041. 5
  1042. [4:17 PM] DekZek: Being promoted again should be a non-starter until trust has been regained.
  1043.  
  1044. 8
  1045. [4:17 PM] MHStarCraft: Pretty much.
  1046. [4:18 PM] Serpent ∞ King: yeah to be staff you have to have trust of the community
  1047.  
  1048. 4
  1049. [4:18 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I'll tell you up front
  1050. [4:18 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I don't trust you as staff at this time
  1051. [4:18 PM] isachu: i dont think any of us do either
  1052.  
  1053. 5
  1054. [4:18 PM] Zeckemyro: I really don't
  1055. [4:18 PM] Cookies and Creme: I would like to give it a year tbh
  1056. [4:18 PM] awesomelink234: Yeah no. Sorry, not after something like this.
  1057. [4:19 PM] Hinata: even though i'm an outsider to this situation, i gotta say, i wouldn't trust you as staff ever
  1058. [4:19 PM] erika strawberry: the main lesson to learn here is to challenge your biases and beliefs, and understand why you might believe a certain way and why that way might be wrong. i'm not going to invalidate your spirituality because i think that's something just as important to live by, but if you want to mend what was broken, you should educate yourself and reflect. regaining your position as staff shouldn't be your priority right now.
  1059.  
  1060. 7
  1061. [4:19 PM] Hinata: you'd have to make some serious changes to your biases and beliefs before i'd EVER trust you
  1062. [4:19 PM] awesomelink234: Unless you absolutely PROVE you can be trusted as staff, I don't really trust you.
  1063. [4:19 PM] OmegaToad64: Can I please be allowed to speak
  1064. [4:19 PM] Xtra: Same
  1065. [4:19 PM] isachu: youve been able to speak
  1066. [4:19 PM] isachu: just type and push send
  1067. [4:19 PM] MeleeBoi: You can speak
  1068. [4:19 PM] Xtra: Yeah
  1069. [4:19 PM] MHStarCraft: I'm going to have to agree with this shaming.
  1070. [4:19 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Like Black Vulpine’s apology, we’re not sure but speak about it(edited)
  1071. [4:19 PM] MHStarCraft: Regardless of how harsh it is.
  1072. [4:19 PM] awesomelink234: What else more do you want to add to this?
  1073. [4:20 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Constantly pelting him with messages is probably feeling like suffication
  1074. [4:20 PM] Zeckemyro: wait what happened with Black Vulpine?
  1075. [4:20 PM] Señor Mexicano: @Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃 No need to bring other users into this.
  1076. [4:20 PM] Hinata: i think they're asking for a chance to speak without the flood of messages
  1077. [4:20 PM] Zeckemyro: I'll ask someone in DMs though
  1078. [4:20 PM] OmegaToad64: Just... hold on a bit.
  1079. [4:20 PM] Hinata: let's give em a chance real quick, y'all
  1080. [4:20 PM] MHStarCraft: But yeah, that.
  1081. [4:20 PM] Hinata: give em the floor for a bit
  1082. [4:20 PM] aidanzapunk: let's not talk about BV now. let's give OmegaToad the chance to speak.
  1083.  
  1084. 6
  1085. [4:20 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: We’ll give you a chance
  1086. [4:20 PM] awesomelink234: @Zeckemyro Got blocked early last year for toxic behavior and apologized
  1087. [4:21 PM] awesomelink234: Anyway let's not discuss BV any more than we need to(edited)
  1088. [4:21 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Okay then
  1089. [4:22 PM] !Trupera: wot
  1090. [4:22 PM] awesomelink234: Accidentally hit enter too early?
  1091. [4:22 PM] OmegaToad64: CRAP didn't mean to send
  1092. [4:22 PM] isachu: i missed it, what was it
  1093. [4:22 PM] Zeckemyro: OT will rewrite it
  1094. [4:22 PM] Hinata: it wasn't a complete message, don't worry about it
  1095. [4:22 PM] aidanzapunk: I don't think it should matter, if it was hit early
  1096. [4:22 PM] isachu: alright
  1097. [4:22 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: It’s a long one so lets be patient on it(edited)
  1098. [4:22 PM] aidanzapunk: let's let him finish
  1099. [4:22 PM] awesomelink234: Wait for him to fully finish it
  1100. [4:30 PM] isachu: OT when youre finished just let us know
  1101. [4:30 PM] isachu: i assume this will be multiple messages so it might take a bit to post
  1102. [4:31 PM] OmegaToad64: I want to deeply apologize for my stupidity last night. I was the one who was clearly in the wrong, and a panic attack caused me to say things in a way I did not intend for it to come out. Maybe it's also combined with the large amount of stress I've experienced lately, I'm not gonna get into many specifics but there were a lot of bad incidences that have happened recently such as my big move and another thing I really don't wanna mention. But even still it shouldn't be an excuse for my stupidity last night. I basically felt the entire world suddenly went against me after my regretful comment, and even when I'm trying to clarify what I really meant to say afterward I still recieved backlash instead of help to improve. Such a traumatizing event has never happend in my life, maybe except the big move, I honestly feel betrayed by the entire community. I don't want backlash, all I want is help to regain everyone's trust, to bring out the real OmegaToad again. As a Christian my job is not to condemn these people but to help them, I even contradicted my own belief for crying out loud. Here's all I want to say. I regret everything last night and I want help to regain everyone's trust.
  1103. [4:32 PM] OmegaToad64: (Btw that's all actually)
  1104. [4:32 PM] Zeckemyro: I did propose to help educate you
  1105. [4:32 PM] Zeckemyro: to which you never responded
  1106. [4:32 PM] Xtra: What do you mean help them
  1107. [4:32 PM] Señor Mexicano: You feel betrayed by the community?
  1108. [4:32 PM] Señor Mexicano: Imagine how we feel?
  1109. [4:33 PM] Clusterace: Ummm
  1110. I don't think "betrayed" is what you meant to say here
  1111. [4:33 PM] isachu: if you think this was traumatizing, imagine what trans people go through
  1112. [4:33 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Im not sure by betrayed(edited)
  1113. [4:33 PM] OmegaToad64:
  1114. to which you never responded
  1115. I never saw it though
  1116. [4:33 PM] awesomelink234: Betrayed?
  1117. As an admin, couldn't it be said that you "betrayed" us in a way with those comments?
  1118. [4:33 PM] Zeckemyro: I said so multiple times
  1119. [4:33 PM] Xtra: What do you mean you wish to help LGBT people
  1120. [4:33 PM] Hinata: also, you mention wanting to bring out the "real omegatoad again"
  1121.  
  1122. if what the community saw last night wasn't the "real" omegatoad, then what exactly was it
  1123. [4:33 PM] Zeckemyro: also the others are right
  1124. [4:33 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: I think betrayed was mean by mistaken...
  1125. [4:34 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Or mistakenly
  1126. [4:34 PM] Personguy: I do believe in giving people a second chance
  1127. [4:34 PM] Voqéo: "As a Christian my job is not to condemn these people but to help them,"
  1128. What do you mean by this? Why do they need your help?(edited)
  1129. [4:34 PM] Personguy: He made a fuck up, so he wants to redeem himself, which is perfectly respectable
  1130. [4:34 PM] Serpent ∞ King: please don't tell me that means conversion
  1131. [4:35 PM] Zeckemyro: but person, read what he's writing
  1132. [4:35 PM] Hinata: like i said earlier, that statement gives off very "pray the gay away" vibes
  1133.  
  1134. 6
  1135. [4:35 PM] Zeckemyro: that's not looking good
  1136. [4:35 PM] Zeckemyro: at all
  1137. [4:35 PM] OmegaToad64:
  1138. also, you mention wanting to bring out the "real omegatoad again"
  1139.  
  1140. if what the community saw last night wasn't the "real" omegatoad, then what exactly was it
  1141. The humorous Toad loving EarthBound fan who wants to help out on the wiki, and make it the best it can be.
  1142. [4:35 PM] Monado Boy: the panic attack card is not helping your case at all
  1143.  
  1144. 6
  1145. [4:35 PM] Monado Boy: sorry
  1146. [4:36 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Was it a panic attack or a reaction of it
  1147. [4:36 PM] OmegaToad64:
  1148. He made a fuck up, so he wants to redeem himself, which is perfectly respectable
  1149. That's all I want... Please....
  1150. [4:36 PM] Personguy: Indeed, he needs to tread carefully, since his damage control is very poor, bringing up the classic "I'm going through shit" excuse
  1151. [4:36 PM] Miles/Emma, the Semi-Retired One: Nowhere did you indicate the thing I was looking for most seriously: a willingness to learn new things and new perspectives.(edited)
  1152.  
  1153. 6
  1154. [4:36 PM] Xtra: @OmegaToad64 what exactly do you mean by wanting to help LGBT people. I'm really concerned on what it could mean
  1155. [4:36 PM] Voqéo:
  1156.  
  1157. [4:36 PM] Zeckemyro: we're not the ones that need to change
  1158. [4:36 PM] Zeckemyro: you are
  1159. [4:36 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Yes I want that answered
  1160. [4:37 PM] Serpent ∞ King: what was meant there
  1161. [4:37 PM] OmegaToad64: We're supposed to teach the word of God to everyone in the world. If you want to remain ight then OK, our job is the spread the gospel.
  1162. [4:38 PM] Hinata:
  1163. The humorous Toad loving EarthBound fan who wants to help out on the wiki, and make it the best it can be.
  1164. that's not the correct answer to this question
  1165.  
  1166. if those views you expressed are not the "real omegatoad", then why did you say them to begin with
  1167.  
  1168. how are we to know that the "real omegatoad" won't just be some false veil of support you put on so people will trust you again
  1169. [4:38 PM] Monado Boy: how cozy u gotta be to find getting demodded from a discord as traumatizing???
  1170. [4:38 PM] Personguy: And the "this makes me depressed" thing just seems so fake
  1171. [4:38 PM] Hinata: ok hold up
  1172. [4:38 PM] Zeckemyro: ew
  1173. [4:38 PM] Serpent ∞ King: dude...
  1174. [4:38 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Gospel?
  1175. [4:38 PM] Hinata: are you fucking kidding me
  1176. [4:38 PM] Zeckemyro: this is definitely conversion
  1177. [4:38 PM] Hinata: you're not even hiding it anymore
  1178. [4:38 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Really... Gospel
  1179. [4:38 PM] Serpent ∞ King: alright I have definitely seen enough here
  1180. [4:38 PM] Señor Mexicano: yikes
  1181. [4:38 PM] erika strawberry: (sigh) i'm not going to bombard you with questions or anything i just really you can deconstruct your biases and be sincere about wanting to change and move forward. LGBT people don't want to "betray" you or anything, and we don't want to be "helped" either, we just need acceptance. that's all.
  1182. [4:38 PM] Monado Boy: you blantatly said that you were having a heart attack then lied about it to get sympathy
  1183. [4:38 PM] Monado Boy: WHAT
  1184. [4:38 PM] Personguy: OT really needs to learn from his mistakes instead of making stupid excuses
  1185. [4:38 PM] Hinata: your idea of helping us is making us not LGBT anymore
  1186. [4:38 PM] Zeckemyro: I don't think he can be educated anymore
  1187. [4:39 PM] Hinata: what the FUCK
  1188. [4:39 PM] MHStarCraft: So we're gonna assume all religion is bad because it takes a clear stance against LGBTQ+?
  1189. [4:39 PM] Alex95 (Commissions!): Alright, hold up
  1190. [4:39 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: So you’re saying this is about religion and gospel and wha...
  1191. [4:39 PM] awesomelink234: Toad, if I do give you a second chance, do note that I be VERY watchful on the wiki and Discord.
  1192. [4:39 PM] Xtra: It was fucking conversion all along
  1193. [4:39 PM] Hinata: i have no sympathy for you any longer
  1194. [4:39 PM] OmegaToad64: I honestly don't feel so good right now...
  1195. [4:40 PM] Hinata: we heard you out, and this is what you've chosen to say
  1196. [4:40 PM] Serpent ∞ King: No foolin
  1197. [4:40 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I don't care anymore
  1198. [4:40 PM] Monado Boy: "wait its all conversion!"
  1199. "always has been.."
  1200.  
  1201. 5
  1202.  
  1203. 3
  1204. [4:40 PM] awesomelink234: Neither do we.
  1205. [4:40 PM] Señor Mexicano: Yeah no amount of whining is going to save you here.
  1206. [4:40 PM] Zeckemyro: no second chance
  1207. [4:40 PM] MHStarCraft: If you really need to, try to take a break from the wiki.
  1208. [4:40 PM] Serpent ∞ King: That is reprehensible
  1209. [4:40 PM] Zeckemyro: he made it clear his view is to convert people
  1210. [4:40 PM] MHStarCraft: You are not well enough to continue your services.
  1211. [4:40 PM] Personguy: Yeah, it's really looking horrible for you OT
  1212. [4:40 PM] isachu: so, heres my genuine advice to you, assuming you are traumatized and on the edge of a panic attack/breakdown like you make it sound like
  1213. it is a website, and a chat room. it doesnt matter. stop caring, and move on
  1214. [4:40 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: The words you’re saying... uhhhh
  1215. [4:40 PM] Serpent ∞ King: You can't just seek to convert people to be not lgbt
  1216. [4:40 PM] MHStarCraft: Well, I'm also an evangelical.
  1217. [4:40 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Makes me bit confused
  1218. [4:41 PM] Serpent ∞ King: That's not how it goes
  1219. [4:41 PM] Clusterace: Yeah I'm sorry but you can't just change people for your own benefit
  1220. [4:41 PM] isachu: also for the record. you dont choose to be lgbt
  1221. [4:41 PM] isachu: never think you do
  1222. [4:41 PM] Serpent ∞ King: just as they don't choose that path
  1223. [4:41 PM] isachu: i wish every day i wasnt trans
  1224. [4:41 PM] Hinata: you're a pampered little christian boy who can't handle people not agreeing with his beliefs, and even your apologies are half-assed, thinly veiled attempts to garner sympathy while you actually double down on your views, and you refuse to hear otherwise because it goes against what you believe in
  1225. [4:41 PM] isachu: it sucks and i really really wish i wasnt
  1226. [4:41 PM] isachu: but i cant not be
  1227. [4:41 PM] isachu: after a long time i know that
  1228. [4:41 PM] isachu: so i'll embrace it
  1229. [4:41 PM] Hinata: there's no chance left for you in my eyes
  1230.  
  1231. you had your opportunity, and you wasted it by refusing to change
  1232. [4:41 PM] Zeckemyro: bruh being straight would be so much easier
  1233. [4:41 PM] isachu: before i hurt myself even worse
  1234. [4:41 PM] Alex95 (Commissions!): Before people start getting the wrong idea, we don't force people to convert, that's not what we do. We share our beliefs, experiences, and such and if people want to join and convert, that is their decision. I think a better term is "protect" rather than "help". Make sure people aren't being subjegated (spelling?) to improper laws, forced to be someone they are not, and other forms of mistreatment. Now, there are varying ways to go about this, and every person is different. It really depends on the situation.
  1235.  
  1236. However, a Super Smash Bros. Discord is not really the place for any of this. There are people from all walks of life here and interests will conflict. It is a very controversial and sensitive topic, speaking about both religion and transgenderism, that a video game Discord is not the right place for these types of discussions.
  1237.  
  1238. 8
  1239. [4:41 PM] Clusterace: ^
  1240. [4:41 PM] Zeckemyro: I know it's not all christians, Alex
  1241. [4:42 PM] Zeckemyro: the issue is that OmegaToad thinks that way
  1242. [4:42 PM] Acgamer28: Ok guys I think that we’ve seen enough here
  1243. [4:42 PM] isachu: i just want him to know you dont choose this
  1244. [4:42 PM] Serpent ∞ King: indeed
  1245. [4:42 PM] isachu: seems like he thinks you do
  1246. [4:42 PM] Personguy: Please learn from your mistakes, OT, and don't make these braindead excuses
  1247. [4:42 PM] Acgamer28: Even though this is a lot to fucking unpack, let’s please not try and drive this situation into becoming any more volatile
  1248. [4:42 PM] Zeckemyro: I keep forgetting people think it's a choice
  1249. [4:42 PM] erika strawberry: religion isn't inherently homophobic. i think that's something important for both christians and LGBT people to know
  1250. [4:42 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Here's what I suggest you do. Step away from SmashWiki for a few weeks, take some time to reflect on your opinions and possibly research the lgbt community a bit.
  1251. [4:43 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: God and Gospel and Religion isn’t right and what it is now.
  1252. [4:43 PM] isachu: if you genuinely want to learn i will educate but never try to convert me or tell me im wrong
  1253. [4:43 PM] Serpent ∞ King: trying to cover this up more is going to make it worse
  1254. [4:43 PM] isachu: or i wont speak to you again
  1255. [4:43 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: It doesn’t help
  1256. [4:43 PM] The Gamer 91: Oh wow...what the heck? That was his repsonse?
  1257. [4:43 PM] Clusterace: You're also sort of acting like what you're going through isn't a common thing
  1258. It is, and it happens to a lot of people every day
  1259. [4:43 PM] OmegaToad64:
  1260. Before people start getting the wrong idea, we don't force people to convert, that's not what we do. We share our beliefs, experiences, and such and if people want to join and convert, that is their decision. I think a better term is "protect" rather than "help". Make sure people aren't being subjegated (spelling?) to improper laws, forced to be someone they are not, and other forms of mistreatment. Now, there are varying ways to go about this, and every person is different. It really depends on the situation.
  1261.  
  1262. However, a Super Smash Bros. Discord is not really the place for any of this. There are people from all walks of life here and interests will conflict. It is a very controversial and sensitive topic, speaking about both religion and transgenderism, that a video game Discord is not the right place for these types of discussions.
  1263. @Alex95 (Commissions!) Finally someone understands.
  1264. [4:43 PM] Clusterace: ...
  1265. [4:43 PM] Señor Mexicano: what
  1266. [4:43 PM] Clusterace: no
  1267. [4:43 PM] isachu: what
  1268. [4:43 PM] Monado Boy: what
  1269. [4:43 PM] Alex95 (Commissions!): Hmm
  1270. [4:43 PM] Zeckemyro: huh?
  1271. [4:43 PM] Serpent ∞ King: uh no
  1272. [4:43 PM] Clusterace: OT you need to step away
  1273. [4:43 PM] Señor Mexicano: Everything he said goes against what you were trying to do.
  1274. [4:43 PM] Hinata: i acknowledge my own biases here, because i'm transgender
  1275.  
  1276. but i just cannot stand you right now
  1277. [4:43 PM] awesomelink234: Uh, no, I don't believe that's what he was trying to say
  1278. [4:43 PM] Serpent ∞ King: that's not at allllll the sentiment you were making
  1279. [4:43 PM] Señor Mexicano: What the fuck are you even talking about at this point?
  1280. [4:43 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: ...
  1281. [4:44 PM] The Gamer 91: Alright, that's probably enough.
  1282. [4:44 PM] Personguy: Is this an out-of-season April Fools' joke?
  1283. [4:44 PM] OmegaToad64: Oh gosh... what am I doing...
  1284. [4:44 PM] Hinata: i'm just gonna say it flat out
  1285.  
  1286. you're pathetic
  1287. [4:44 PM] Serpent ∞ King: stop trying to save face
  1288. [4:44 PM] Acgamer28: This is anti-poggers
  1289. [4:44 PM] isachu: hinata take a step away for now
  1290. [4:44 PM] The Gamer 91: No way you're gonna come back from this.
  1291. [4:44 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Oh no... it’s happening...
  1292. [4:44 PM] awesomelink234: Good question. What ARE you doing?
  1293. [4:44 PM] OmegaToad64: I really need to settle down and think of what to say...
  1294. [4:44 PM] Hinata: nothing you've said has helped your case even a little bit
  1295. [4:44 PM] isachu: i think youre getting a bit heated here
  1296. [4:44 PM] Serpent ∞ King: you are digging yourself so deep
  1297. [4:44 PM] isachu: regardless of if he deserves it or not
  1298. [4:44 PM] erika strawberry: okay no i don't think you need to go on the personal attacks for this right now. we don't need to gang up on OT
  1299. [4:44 PM] isachu: for your own sake
  1300. [4:44 PM] Zeckemyro: I think it's time for EoD
  1301. [4:44 PM] Señor Mexicano: Please
  1302. [4:44 PM] Zeckemyro: OT is sinking himself faster than the titanic
  1303. [4:45 PM] Clusterace: Do you have any idea what you did just now?
  1304. Because if you don't, then you need to disengage
  1305. [4:45 PM] erika strawberry: if you were on the other end of this you'd probably be overwhelmed too. let's just give it a break
  1306. [4:45 PM] OmegaToad64:
  1307. okay no i don't think you need to go on the personal attacks for this right now. we don't need to gang up on OT
  1308. thank you...
  1309. [4:45 PM] awesomelink234: All I'm saying is that a lot of people, myself included, don't trust you right now.
  1310. [4:45 PM] Serpent ∞ King: Hinata let's avoid personal attacks
  1311. [4:45 PM] Personguy: Yeah, I think this is over now, not much else to add
  1312. [4:45 PM] Serpent ∞ King: there are other ways to express stuff
  1313. [4:45 PM] Zeckemyro: It's supposed to be civil, come on
  1314. [4:45 PM] Zeckemyro: but for now, SK, I call for EoD
  1315. [4:45 PM] Acgamer28: please
  1316. [4:45 PM] Serpent ∞ King: I think that's best for everyone
  1317. [4:45 PM] erika strawberry: don't know what eod means but i call for it
  1318. [4:45 PM] Monado Boy: im for it, EoD
  1319. [4:45 PM] Acgamer28: We’ve seen what we need to see for a collective decision
  1320. [4:46 PM] Zeckemyro: End of Discussion
  1321. [4:46 PM] isachu: end of discussion
  1322. [4:46 PM] Alex95 (Commissions!): "End of discussion"
  1323. [4:46 PM] Voqéo: Guys, this is OTs take on the issue. We can't change what he believes, but that just means he shouldn't be admin. Not much else to discuss tbh
  1324. [4:46 PM] Acoma: Close the channel before it devolves into shit flinging
  1325. [4:46 PM] awesomelink234: eod=end of discussion
  1326. [4:46 PM] Ho̴͆̉ฬ℘Ⱡム¥𝔃: Or discussion
  1327. [4:46 PM] Serpent ∞ King: We can revisit this later maybe once tensions are down
  1328. [4:46 PM] isachu: yeah lets revisit it in a few days imo
  1329. [4:46 PM] Serpent ∞ King: So yes EoD
  1330. [4:46 PM] MHStarCraft: Lock this discussion.
  1331. [4:46 PM] Personguy: OT is universally getting dogpiled and he really isn't trying anymore
  1332. [4:46 PM] isachu: save the channel at least
  1333. [4:46 PM] MHStarCraft: We have fathers that we need to spend time with.
  1334.  
  1335. 18
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