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ben hoffman alice monday "scapegoat"

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Nov 21st, 2021
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  1. On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 12:47:54 PM UTC-4 wrote:
  3. I'm approximately 100% sure that:
  5. (1) The linked stories about Alice are in large part motivated by a desire to scapegoat, coming from a frame where the thing to do is direct violence or ostracism towards the bad people.
  6. (2) The stories include substantial elements of people accurately identifying abusive/triggered behavior patterns in others, getting triggered as a result, and therefore responding with their own triggered abuse patterns.
  7. (3) It's common for people to interpret their own triggered behavior as a rationally self-interested response to abuse, but this is almost always a mistake; it's often just CPTSD trying to make some copies.
  8. (4) Because of 2 and 3, we should be very skeptical of any tendency to interpret picking fights as an agentic attempt to make things better in some specific way.
  9. (5) "I don't feel safe telling my story" cashes out to, "I feel compelled to go along with silencing patterns even when they're specifically doing violence to me," another CPTSD pattern.
  11. Somewhat less confidently:
  13. (6) We'll learn a lot more focusing first on behavior patterns (which can include examples from elsewhere), secondarily on persons as they show up here, and almost never on generic ad hominem. The current thread has a flavor of trying to decide whether Alice is sympathetic. That's actually not compatible with trying to understand Alice's perspective.
  15. On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 1:28:33 PM UTC-4 wrote:
  17. Going to at least corroborate the "lying cultists" claim. Like, I'm not 100% on whether Alice is innocent, but I know damn well her accusers are not
  19. Regarding the tonality of the email group, I actually mildly support Alice being the way she is, mostly because I have strong priors against most people on this group following her lead, which I think hedges strongly against "culture going places of attacking each other"
  21. I will note, however, that I'm unusually inclined to defend sharpness.
  23. ~Cassandra
  26. On Mon, Sep 7, 2020, 7:05 AM alice monday <> wrote:
  28. i'd like to tell it. but i've been a favorite rationalist scapegoat since before this and i don't feel safe
  30. On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 6:57 AM Eliot Re <> wrote:
  32. I would love to hear the charitable version of the story.
  34. ELiot
  36. On Mon, 7 Sep. 2020, 20:54 alice monday, <> wrote:
  38. @matt those pages are written by lying criminals, to punish me for not joining their cult. it's unfortunate
  40. On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 12:04 AM Matt Goldenberg <> wrote:
  42. On a hunch I googled Alice and on the first page are a couple links about them physically abusing roommates (1, 2), using similar logic to what is on display here (they abused me first/ I'm interacting this way for their own good).
  44. I'm not sure what the standards and rules are for the list, but my personal recommendation either Alice be removed or clear consequences in the future be given for bad faith interaction styles.
  46. On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 11:11 PM alice monday <> wrote:
  48. herschel has acted for blunt culture where people tell each other what they think of them, and i am happy to play "yes, and" rather than putting his vibe down. i think you are the one who has a defensive relationship with the mailing list
  50. On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 10:44 PM Eliot Red <> wrote:
  52. Hey Alice,
  54. I'd prefer you speak from first person, "I don't like the way you said that" than an outward description "ignorant scum". My guess is that HS may have seen that picture and was wanting better models. But I'd be interested in if that's true.
  56. I don't want this mailing list culture to go into places of attacking one another, I don't anticipate value down that path. I appreciate your desire to defend the mailing list from what you perceived as "ignorant scum". I ask myself, what world do I create with my actions (sending this email) and would invite you to fit that question in with the exploration of "...doing personal attacks and im interested in what happens if i take them up on the offer".
  58. Thank you,
  59. ELiot
  61. On 7/9/20 6:17 am, Matt Bell wrote:
  62. > This discussion is veering in strange directions, but in case it's useful to people, I'm sharing some notes I collected a while back on the subject:
  63. >
  64. > tl;dr cook with avocado oil for its good balance of fats and high smoke point, or if you want to add oil to something at room temperature, season with good quality reputable extra virgin olive oil or hazelnut oil. Lots of people swear by grass-fed butter but it can still be bad in large quantities. Eat fish instead as it has a much better Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio. Your body's response will depend on your genetics. Test your lipid profile to figure out how it's going, make changes, wait a couple of months, test again.
  65. >
  66. > My notes:
  67. >
  68. > ---
  69. >
  70. > Last September I posted about some dietary experiments to reduce heart disease risk, and I have some updates having tried the new diet for 4 months.
  71. > Big picture: Heart disease kills so many people (1 in 4) that any attention you pay to reducing it is going to have a huge impact. The best interventions happen when you're in your 20s-40s, before massive irreversible damage has accumulated.
  72. > As noted in my previous post ( ), overall cholesterol is not a very good marker of heart disease. What is important is:
  73. > - Keeping your apolipoprotein B (Apo-B) levels low.
  74. > - Reducing the total LDL particle count (LDL-P) -- the number of LDL cholesterol particles in your blood
  75. > - Having mostly large LDL particles instead of small ones.
  76. > Last August, I shifted my daily breakfast base from full-fat grass-fed yogurt to nonfat yogurt + either hazelnut oil (healthy and best flavor mixed with yogurt) or olive oil (really healthy). I also tilted my protein mix from mostly grass-fed beef to mostly fish. Finally, I shifted from grass-fed butter to avocado oil as my oil of choice for various meals. I still eat a variety of things in restaurants as following a diet 100% vs 80% causes a lot more friction and unhappiness.
  77. > I now have the longer term follow-up results: (Previous data points are from 2015, but my diet was relatively consistent 2015-August 2019)
  78. > - Apolipoprotein B is basically unaffected by the diet shift (it's still moderately high at 101)
  79. > - Overall LDL-P is still very high and only decreased somewhat (1814->1645)
  80. > ...but
  81. > - Small LDL particles went from 227 (high) to 175 (moderate)
  82. > - Medium LDL particles went from 419 (super high) to 271 (borderline moderate-high)
  83. > - Doing the math, the entire decrease in LDL particle count has come from the decrease in small and moderate sized particles, which are the bad ones, while the count of large ones stayed the same.
  84. > So this is some improvement, but I still have some more improvement to go.
  85. > I already get a lot of both aerobic and strength-building exercise, and I think my diet (moderate carbs, moderate protein mostly from fish, moderately high fat mostly from olive/avocado/hazelnut oil, nuts, and fish + occasional other meats) is reasonably good now.
  86. >
  87. >
  88. > ---
  89. >
  90. > Research:
  91. >
  92. > Harvard analysis of difference between various fats:
  93. >
  94. >
  95. >
  96. > Oil smoke points during cooking:
  97. >
  98. >
  99. >
  100. > Avocado is very high. Butter is very low.
  101. >
  102. > Another site with different numbers:
  103. >
  104. >
  105. >
  106. >
  107. >
  108. > Oil gets heated up to different temperatures during a cooking process. It is heated almost up to its smoking point for deep-frying and to lower temperatures for other types of cooking process. Oil starts to smoke when it is over-heated and starts to form aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, dienes, and acids. As a result, if you continue to cook something in the same oil, the food product will taste poorly. More importantly, the smoke of rapeseed, soybean, peanut oil and lard can cause serious mutagenicity and genetic toxicity. A few culprits to consider are an aldehyde called acrolein, as well as alkenals and alkadienals (unsaturated aldehydes) – they are formed during the burning/smoking process of the above-mentioned oil. There are quite a few fast food restaurants that use peanut oil to deep-fry their fries. Lard is widely used in pie crusts, and soybean is popular is households. Acrolien in very toxic to our cells and genes – they degrade our cells and genes; they also generate free radicals. Free radicals are responsible for cell aging. Recent studies have shown an increased amount of acrolein in Alzheimer’s disease patients’ brains. I strongly encourage you to read the two references listed below, they’re such eye openers!
  109. >
  110. > In a nutshell, oils with low smoking point (rapeseed, soybean, peanut oil, and lard) ⇒ acrolein ⇒ free radical ⇒ Alzheimer’s disease + premature aging.
  111. >
  112. >
  113. >
  114. >
  115. >
  116. >
  117. >
  118. > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 12:17 PM alice monday <> wrote:
  119. >
  120. > romeo i know u dont want me to be doing personal attacks but this guy wants to be doing personal attacks and im interested in what happens if i take them up on the offer. sometimes it's surprisingly sweet
  121. >
  122. > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 3:00 PM alice monday <> wrote:
  123. >
  124. > if you want a model, ignorant scum, try jeff nobbs's melodramatic FUDy model it speaks well of olive, avocado, coconut
  125. >
  126. >
  127. > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM Herschel Schwartz <> wrote:
  128. >
  129. > Hey bud, you uh, you got any models?
  130. >
  131. > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 3:04 AM Romeo Stevens <> wrote:
  132. >
  133. > Olive, avocado, and coconut oil for vegans.
  134. >
  135. > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 4:49 PM alice monday <> wrote:
  136. >
  137. > why u give credence to this gordon, it's got more to do with people sitting in finely heated buildings, without the purpose or drive to endure hormesis, eating purified acellular substances, staring towards a perceived coming oblivion and falling shattering disorganized
  138. >
  139. > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 6:32 PM G Gordon Worley III <> wrote:
  140. >
  141. > I think it's unclear. I think something is going on with fats and modern human disease issues that didn't seem to exist historically, including obesity when eating diets that at a casual glance don't seem much unhealthier than what people at in the past, but it's unclear to me if it's from plastics, vegetable oil, or just what and in precisely what ways.
  142. >
  143. > I continue to eat vegan and consume hydrogenated vegetable oils. Aside from being slightly persistently overweight, I don't seem to be suffering from it much in terms of symptoms people connect to it. I have no idea what to really take away from it all though, that is not taking a big guess on weak evidence.
  144. >
  145. > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:16 PM Herschel Schwartz <> wrote:
  146. >
  147. > Hm this is confusing and distressing. What is recommended for vegans? I had heard claimed before that oil branded as "vegetable oil" as opposed to eg. olive oil was specifically harmful, and I was pretty dubious.
  148. >
  149. > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:30:27 AM UTC-4 wrote:
  150. >
  151. > Just like with all the previous scares, I expect to find in another 1-3 decades that there was a key distinction to be made. Just as the studies on sugar that didn't distinguish added sugar were confusing, and just as the studies on saturated fat that didn't distinguish processed meat consumption were confusing, I expect that vegetable oil studies that don't take into account the transformation of fat via processing into account will leave the analysis confused. We already have a trailhead on this due to the existence of transfats, which in the example of margerine (which is one of the long term studied cubstances here) some forms of processing were generating quite a lot of. Years later, these 'heart healthy' butter replacements resulted in a trans fat ban because no amount was found to be safe in the human diet.
  152. >
  153. > That said, I don't cook with vegetable oil. I typically add unprocessed fat to dishes after they are cooked.
  154. >
  155. > On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 12:06:34 PM UTC-7 wrote:
  156. >
  157. > I didn’t realize vegetable oils were correlated with so much bad stuff!
  158. >
  159. >
  160. >
  161. >
  162. >
  163. >
  164. >
  165. > Has anyone here noticed changes in their body and/or subjective experience after cutting vegetable oil out of their diet?
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