Nigel Levy: Hi, I'm Nigel Levy and this is the Doc Fix documentary Storytelling podcast. John Matheson is one of the most acclaimed contemporary cinematographers. When we sat down, he just returned from shooting Gladiator two with Ridley Scott and Malta. 25 years earlier, John shot the original gladiator in between.
He's photographed numerous films for Scott, including Kingdom of Heaven, Hannibal, and Robin Hood. He also photographed the closest superhero films have come to Art with the Wolverine film, Logan, a Man from Uncle Dr. Strange, and many, many more. What this conversation ended up as is a lesson in how a multiple Oscar nominated cinematographer thinks.
We talk about originality in filmmaking and the pressures that Hollywood puts on the process as it actually happens on set. You'll also hear his opinion about when to move the camera and the power of editing to tell your story and don't miss how he describes shooting on set with Ridley Scott and how and why it has changed since they first worked together.
While I have you, please subscribe if you want to know when the next episode is going to emerge. If you want to find out more about me. And how I work with people on their documentary storytelling Skills at the Doc Fix, you can go to apply dot the doc fix.com. Of course, there are details in the show notes at the end of this podcast.
So now here's my conversation with John Matheson. John, nice to see you. Of course, you've just come back from doing Gladiator again. Yes. What was the experience like of revisiting something like that?
John Mathieson: Walking back on the set because they built it exactly how it was. You know, it wasn't like you never went away, but when, you know, I'd go up there and look at things in my own time and w wander through these spaces and it was like you were in an odd dream that hadn't finished or something.
Again, I don't know what sort of film we've made now, 25 years, whatever it is. Nearly, I think you, you should be more experienced. You should know. It was a different film, a different approach, different taste these days of what a film should be, even though you're trying to stay true to something as all these other filmmakers and the whole taste moves this way and you get pushed that way.
So it obviously, if we are making it straight on the back of the other 1 25 years ago, like the continuing ages of Maximus in the Underworld or the Overworld, wherever he goes to Alicia, it would be very different. To to the 25 year gap. So things are different now than they were 25 years ago.
Nigel Levy: How are you affected by current trends?
When you approach a story, when you approach a film, do you try and just block that out and just work out what original means to you? With the director, I.
John Mathieson: I keep watching old films. I went to see Days of Heaven with the kids the other day, which was very Terrence Malick, blah, blah, blah, and you actually look at his filmmaker, it's actually quite advanced, non-linear camera wanders around.
He doesn't say, oh, here we are on the Prairie. Here's a wide shot. Here's a two shot. He's a. Blow up, peaches, wanders into stuff. You get the feeling of what it's like to be on the prairie at the turn of the century and famine, dust bowl, people on the move, women and men working together as workers pretty much just slightly above a slave.
You get that feeling what it's like rather than the a nuts and bolts story. So we watch that. And you talking about Raiders, the lost art, it still jumps out as a film, so I dunno. What here I'm stuck in because I, it's very difficult with a script to say it doesn't read well, so you're immediately, I'm writing all over it and making notes of what I think is, if it, when it becomes a film, something comes, when it comes off this thing, this sort of dead document, dead sea scroll or whatever it is, and it becomes a live picture thing.
You know? You get the script and then you try and start seeing it. I don't know if I'm influenced by. The, the current things around me, a lot of it, it's very sausage making. It's very, there's a lot of McDonald's being said, oh, people like McDonald's. If you only give 'em McDonald's, they ain't McDonald's.
Give 'em a paa. They might think, oh, this is interesting. You know, I've had my fair portion of, yes, big Hollywood, Marvel, the things, they pay you a lot of money. You are on it for a long time. A lot of 'em are run very well. Worked with Sam Ramey. Terrific. Nice fellow. Had a great time, did a lot of giggling, worked hard, made a good film.
People lorded it, and then it's like McDonald's. You forget about it, you eat it and it's gone. Just can't. That's you Don't remember. You don't remember the last time. You might remember the last time you went to some kooky Lebanese restaurant or something. God, the food was great. We must go there again.
You don't, you just forget it. These films are massive, but they're gone. And they don't seem to,
Nigel Levy: I don't know. Well, let's go back to the beginning. Yeah. For you, if you don't mind. Your background is very diverse. So you did documentaries and music videos. Yeah. When did you develop a passion for cinema?
John Mathieson: I've been to stiff school and, and then I went to college and there's a guy called there called Mr.
Who was plump and more linen suits and floppy ties and was rather nice. And he showed us films I couldn't believe. I was at in some education system where they showed you films and he showed us Polanski's Vampire thing and some early Renoir and just, and at the same time you had Alien so like scare the crap outta me.
Really dark. And so I think that, I think everyone loves a film. When I was younger, I probably wanted to be James Bond, but I think that that period when I was about 18, 19, and then I moved to London, I met a bunch of other guys who knew more than me and they would take me to these small theaters on Rupert Street.
There were a few independents at the Swiss Center and they would show, they were just showing films and, and BFI was two pounds 49 for a film and it was all nighters. At The Scarlet. You could go and watch Napoleon for eight hours. Those influences and then the photography that came along with that.
Metropolis and things like that. Really. So when That's what, that's what we like. So we are looking at that and looking at travel. We're looking at Metropolis, looking at those things at the B-F-I-N-F-T, national Film Theater and seeing Renoir win win Windows, you could actually understand every type of filmmaking.
You could actually go from silence to one films, which are side shows to, to feature length things. Chaplain, American Noir, French New Wave, moving to talkies. The difference between. The Nosferatu that's running at the Prince Charles now, it's a hundred years old, 101 years old. We won't see it with this musician playing in front of the ischemic.
They were just huge standing ovation when he finished because he then, if you see the wolf man made. Only 10 years, 12 years later, suddenly there's lighting, there's proper shots, there's tracking shots, there's closeups. The language has jumped enormously from this sort of sideshow, flickery thing, and then it jumped again.
And so that exciting period of the youth of cinema, you could actually see at the
Nigel Levy: BFI and, and you could still see these films now. So you are very lucky in a sense, because you were surrounded by the history of cinema, right? In London, you could watch the history of cinema for nothing from the beginning to wherever the present was.
Yeah. For nothing. Yeah. And. You were just bathing in all these different approaches to visuals and storytelling and narrative. Yeah. And just absorbing No, absolutely. You worked in, uh, doc documentary Yeah. And music video early on. Yeah. So when you are working in documentary Yeah. Because, uh, a lot of the people that are listening to this are documentarians or hoping to be documentarians.
Your IE developed watching drama. All those dramas that you saw, how did you apply that to that process of filming documentary?
John Mathieson: I don't think we did. I found my stuff was more going. Hope to God you're standing in the right place in the room, that people come towards you and you got good at guessing what people are gonna do next.
Actually, it makes you quite a good film camera operator. If you can predict a move that someone's gonna tie a shoelace not to dip too fast, not to do, or they're gonna go down for a closeup. You see? You don't have to do an untidy insert shot later. You can make it all flow together. That's good. So that documentary talk.
That to you, which had to be an operator, how to keep both eyes open, how to see what's going next, had to really know the camera. It became a very much as of thing that you wore on the, on your head and you learn how to, but I say trying to go into a room, trying to be in the right place. So the action came towards it if it was the wrong place, and this is what makes me laugh and furious about young filmmakers, that let's do it handheld, make it really cool, really cool that us as documentaries, we were trying to make it as smooth as fucking possible the whole time.
For the large part, you're going into a place thinking, am I gonna be lucky today? Have I got enough? Film in the magazines. Have I got the right stock in the magazines? Are we gonna go inside and we're gonna go outside again? I'm like, oh, I don't wanna be reloading a magazine, taking out the fast stop, putting in the slow stock because they've stayed outside and we hope we were gonna shoot inside or, or got slow.
Some of the logistics was always on. And how many batteries have I got? Batteries were heavy. How many have I got? How many can I carry? How many am I gonna need for this? Are they gonna go on a bit? And then when they're in the room and they're about to start an interview, should we just cut and reload now?
Then we'll get 11 minutes on the camera. Or should we just shoot this out and then they'll be halfway through? A really interesting question of the film runner. It's military. It's like, be on time. Are you charged up? Have you got the right lenses? Are you gonna get there before they do the next documentary team only, do you want it more than they do?
Are you prepared to run up the hill? Will you get up a bit earlier or will you just hang out a bit longer to get that nice end shot? But there was something about being a young cameraman running about with a an NPRA Claire or SR SR one, and trying to just show that you weren't some tired old BBC hack.
You could actually liven things up and. And make the stuff more watchable too.
Nigel Levy: Then you went into, then you went into drama and features. Yeah. So when you, when you are organizing a scene that's interesting to go to that, how connected are you with the story in your role as the cinematographer does? The overall story, the whole feature film itself has a narrative that you are working on and each scene has a narrative.
Really. How connected is what you do to that.
John Mathieson: So I get the script, I break it down. I write down each character, write what they do, how they make an entrance, how are they walk in the room, what are they gonna do, not just, oh, they, they've gotta get through these lines. Yeah. They get through these lines and they walk out the door.
Right When they walk out the door, they look back. They say lines walk out. No. When they look back, it's more important than all those lines they've just said. They're looking back in the room and they're seeing who thought, what they thought about what this person just came in the room. That's an example that something might happen or has happened.
I've had that conversation of quite a few times. But you look at the scene and you break it down and you think, what's the midpoint of the scene? What is the point of the scene? Where does the, where's the arc? Where's the, where does it kick? Where does it change direction? And that that. What can you do there?
Nothing fancy, but maybe you just, maybe you and I are talking like this and the camera just cracks behind my head and you shift the eye line. So I'm going left, or I'm going right to left. And what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything, but you've actually changed the balance of the films. Again. So it just
Nigel Levy: adds significance to the moment.
It
John Mathieson: does. So you try and do these things, and I always write down, I write down transitions to go from day to night to this, to that. They walk out the door, they go through this other door, and I write 'em all down. I, I got this huge list. I got pa, we're sitting on piles of paper underneath here of all my ideas and storyboards and scribbles to try and every scene I try and get, we could use that there.
We use this lens there. We can, and of course you, you can dismiss. 75% of them immediately and then, and then another 15 get lost on the way and then maybe 10 survive.
Nigel Levy: But talk about the number of cameras. 'cause actually this is something I've always wanted to ask you and I've never got round to asking you and I heard from someone else, but when Ridley Scott Shoots, does he use multiple cameras?
He does
John Mathieson: now. He likes, he's quite impatient, so he likes to get. As much as you can at once. So the problem is, is with that you don't, you light from 1, 1, 1 side. You look at the older films, you getting depth into things was very much a part of lighting. Now you can't do that with lots of cameras, but people love his films and.
He's Ridley Scott. He can do what he wants and people wanna shoot multi cameras because they get lots of performances. They put lots of people in. It's the CG elements now of tidying things up, leaving things in shot, cameras in shot, microphones in shot, bits of set, hanging down shadows from booms. We did the first study, he said that was 50 shots, 50 effect shots.
That was it. 50. This one would be in the thousands from the opera was six effect shots. So each frame was, had to be perfectly exposed on film, and the tracking had to be perfect. The no bumps, the focus, bang on the operating, incredibly whatever is required, smooth, chaotic, whatever it was had to be, right.
There was no reframing later, there was no tying up. The camera had to be running. Perfectly. The fastidiousness of looking after those things, getting, there's a lot more, the camera's a sacred thing there. People climbing all over it and intimacy. You could talk to the director. He was often, quite often in your ear looking over the back of the camera, the focus bullets on your other ear, and he's tweaking the focus and you're just.
Giving finger size to the grip. Now things are on remote focus. Guys are looking at TVs some way away reacting to focus rather than predicting, like I said earlier, of guessing what people are gonna do next. There's no point in pulling them to them late. You better arrive early and then walk into it quick.
Then actually go, they arrive. There's the
Nigel Levy: focus. I feel incredibly old fashioned then. I really do because I, when I'm planning shoots and I do it on. Stocks, but also the drama. It's like literally every, who's the character? How do we frame them? Where's the focus? Where's the light on? Nothing wrong with that, I think in single camera.
The key frame. What's the moment? Yeah, yeah. I think that there's
John Mathieson: nothing wrong with that. It might be old fashioned, but I, that's the way I think too, you, you have these plans and of course it's a bit like when the army say, you know, you, you plan your military thing and soon as someone starts shooting you, everything goes out the window.
Mike, Mike Tyson's version,
Nigel Levy: Mike the Tyson, everyone's gonna plan until they hit in the face a bunch hilariously. Especially for him to say that seems like there's a way of being taught how to. Direct and block and plan shoots. Mm-hmm. That encompasses that way of thinking, this is what the scene is about, this is what the characters are for.
I didn't, but didn't, this is the moment. It's very
John Mathieson: difficult to work that out, I don't think. But you're
Nigel Levy: saying that the industry is, is No, the industry
John Mathieson: now has turned up and spray on everything. Put your, put a zoom lens on, get on a remote head, some technic crane. And then just
Nigel Levy: go. We'll be back with John in a moment, but I just wanted to jump in and remind you about the Doc Fix Storytelling program, which is the reason why I'm recording these interviews with great filmmakers.
If you want to find out more about the program, which is there to help anyone who's struggling to turn an idea into a great story, you can go to apply the fix.com. I'll send you a case study where I go over exactly the process I use when working on documentaries. Which include the Netflix series F1 Drive to Survive Script writing for S David Attenborough and much more.
And of course, if you have any questions at all, I'd be glad to help. Now back to John and how the ingenuity of a couple of farm laborers saved a scene in Robin Hood. I
John Mathieson: remember in Wales we were doing, we were doing Robin Hood. We were trying to get out on the break with a crane and we're on the soft sand and the tides come in.
The crane kept sinking. The grip was terrified. We get stuck in the sand, which would've done, and these kids, twins were watching us from a sand tune. Local kids, freshwater is right on the carnarvon, right? The almost Wesley point of Wales. And they said, you can't, your wheels are too big. You, you want is a bailing.
Trailer. Sorry. Bugger off. You put it on there. It's got big balloon wheels on. We've got one. You've got one? Yeah. Do you want it? We'll bring it. So they brought this thing down. Just put, they even put this big Swiss roll straw things on, and we chucked our giraffe on that. And then they gave us tractor. We backed it into the server and this thing was 60 foot long plus the tractor, which would get outta trouble.
Then the crane, another 30 foot suddenly we're in the break. With Russell fighting in the waves of smashing over him. Suddenly we and these kids ran around for us for a month and they were terrific and we went myself, Gary Hems, the went to the farmer at the end and said, listen, you are two. If you want, we'll take 'em with us now.
We will take them right now and we'll make sure that they will give 'em jobs. They've got it. Whatever. They can see things. They're practically minded. They as long as the day, they're enthusiastic, they've got, they're great. They said, I buy their farm. The farm I got on the farm, I can't. He said, oh, that's a shame, but game my call.
You change your mind, you call us, you send them to us in London and all, but that they, those kids coming on to set. Now you get kids coming set. They sit in a box and they're not interested. They're on their phones. They're not, they don't, they the privilege or the wonderment or, but, but they had to go through this process of being vetted and, uh, to get on the set rather than just.
You know, peering over the top of the sand tune saying, what are you doing that looks fun, that I miss? 'cause most my contemporaries, they all got into the film. See this as a, this chaotic way in it wasn't really recognized. Or if I was gonna sit it out, I wasn't ever gonna get anywhere.
Nigel Levy: You know, if someone was filming, they had an iPhone or they just had basically the simplest camera.
Yeah. And they were trying to film a documentary or something.
John Mathieson: Mm-hmm.
Nigel Levy: What would you tell them to make sure they did in terms of how they shoot it? What should they worry about? What shouldn't they worry about in terms of what they're covering? If I gave you an iPhone Yeah. And said, can you shoot this documentary?
What are you looking for on it? I think
John Mathieson: if, if you want lots of iPhone things on on. YouTube and all. Fantastic one. The first thing is to hold it the right fucking way around. We've got two sets of eyes. We look across the horizons. We by no, we're predatory creatures. Both our eyes look forward. There is a reason we have this format that is wider, but it is taller, but they turn it on its side like a.
Proper pink, and then when people view it, they'll at least be seeing it full screen. Then the other thing is stop to move it around just to do a shot. Just do it as still shots. Don't move. Do a shot and do it again, and do it again until you write, and then you move and do another shot and then vary.
You've got 1, 2, 3 lenses on these things now. Rather than just trying to gather it all up at once. And because you're so easy to move and they're light and you can just keep rolling around people. Okay, so if they're coming through the house, like say hello, time, I'm running upstairs, grabbing something, you know, that's fine.
You can do your steady cap shot, but don't, why not just stand at the top of the stairs and see 'em come up the stairs and pan them into the room and find that girlfriend in bed with someone else or whatever. They just do it that way rather than, oh. So have the patience. Don't get carried away with what's happened.
But yeah. But don't shoot too tight is the other thing. 'cause everyone views everything on very small. But I think you watch Spielberg, some others, some of the most significant shots in films are not huge closeups. I think if you keep, I always think if you keep on the eye line tight, that's one of my things about shooting multi cameras.
You can't get on the eyelight. Closeups closeup, but to be on the, a good eye line, like just grazing past the other actor and so your eyes are going into the camera even at a distance has far more value than a closeup. That's the eye line's off as not disconnected from the screen was one of my things about point of interest.
I just couldn't, I missed that connection. Closeups. He shot in this multi-cam. Have you seen it? Zone of interest. Sorry.
Nigel Levy: Zone of interest. I haven't seen it yet. So that's Jonathan Blazer's, John Blazer. I
John Mathieson: mean, Jonathan really is. Next up, Ridley Scott, probably our most interesting British director whose films are good.
Now, this one in particular, I don't really like because he does this multi-cam things. He can't get close to key moments. You can't where you're supposed to. Sit in the front of the cinema, sit for, I don't know what, I just don't feel connected to some of the emotions. Now I know what he's doing, but he's got these multi cameras.
I know he shot so many cameras and hidden tiny little things all over this house. And then he does, it goes into some very interesting things towards the end of film. But the large part of it, for, for me, the film's over quite quickly because it doesn't. Doing. I'm not saying it, cameras do fancy things or nice lighting or any of this, it just doesn't connect.
But I think that's the thing of don't zoom in. You go close to the actor and get the shot, then go back rather than try to get it all in and we're zooming back out. Think of cuts. I think the thing I learned was when going to Cunningham for the first time, actually cutting off when you make the first cut.
You've done it yourself. Oh my god, that works. That's amazing. All it is, he looks in and then they look across the room and then they pick up that look and you pound their look and you cut and fucking out. It's just a slice of the fucking celluloid and it's got this magic to, it's got a language. Film does have a language, whether you like it or not, you can deconstruct it, but people understand it.
You wide shot wheat field or something, man in a plow field, cut to a close something like something's gonna happen to him. And he looks off to one side. Now you know I'm gotta get sand. Let's go all the way down to his eyes. Okay? We're going down to his eyes. We're going to, I, I mean, we need to get to his eyes.
I need to see who he is. I'm coming to his face. I got to his eyes, right? And then he reacts and then you go off to what he's seeing. No, no, no. Wide shot into his eyes. Click. He looks left. What's he looking at? That's got far more? And it's got a language and you understand it. Now you can deconstruct it.
But to think you are the new genius filmmaker, I am the genius filmmaker. I have bought a 4K camera on top of a road. I'm now gonna make the most fantastic films. You need other people around you and you need to make cuts. You need to go to cutting rooms, and you need to understand or display to your DP as the camera man.
I don't get it. If I don't get it, it ain't gonna go in the box. That means other people ain't gonna get it. It's about mass communication. Follow the language, use the language. Then we go back to the iPhone thing. It was, and the iPhone is amazing. Like, my God, it's like going from a moped to intergalactic lightship from when we started the clockwork cameras and clappy old cook lenses.
But that was when we had to make all that stuff work. And that was So you don't just follow the action, just follow things round? No, you just, no, don't follow the bloody action. Use cuts. It's any way to make things shorter. And that's what I'm trying explain to people, oh, I'll do this long shot and it'll be quicker.
No, it won't be, it'd be quicker to do lots of small shots and it'll give you a lot more option in the edit to make things sharper. And so if you have to, where do you cut this shot? If it's always fucking moving. And what about the gvs, the general shot? That's when in the script I always go through things, say, look, this goes next to that and it's a dawn.
It's the night to a dawn, to a dus. And you say you need something, you need a city shot, something in between or a cat walking past the building or something. You need something to break that, so you need to transition. So I think, yeah. I was talking about that earlier. Get lots of stuff that's interesting to you.
Just get it, but also to actually break something up, like you need a dawn, you need a, the next day you need a church bell. You need a, a pad shot across rooftops. You need, I. People forget, I think particularly in when I was doing fashion and beauty, that where they are, they'll get we shot in the Seychelles, looks like you shot in Canvas ads.
We went to Morocco. It looks like you're starting to get some mud wall. Where are the Atlas Mountains? Where's the mosque? Then people forget that you're in a location you feel around. You make sure you see it. That's what we see in music videos. We'd go and pick the band up. We'd get in the bus in the morning, hung over a shit from the nightclub, and we'd start sticking outside the transit window.
Just start filming people on the street and stuff like that. Some blo having coffee, some guy doing the bins or something and then you suddenly you had this film, I, God, this is interesting. So you get, you gave a, but that was just instinct. You just learned that that was useful.
Nigel Levy: Do you feel optimistic or not about the future of filmmaking?
Because of all the technology you can shoot things? I don't think this,
John Mathieson: no. This iPhone thing, I mean we, I did this film now about Dietrich Bonhoeffer who was who, who went up against Hitler. You know that character? He was, he stands outside the Martyr's Gate at Westminster actually. Martin Luther and other, so we came to the end, the movie, we needed some transition to get from the 1940s when they hung him in, in, in 45.
Mid 45, he hung to the present day. So he stands outside street. So, well, let's go down with the camera. It can't be too difficult. Go, it got to 20,000 pounds and said off. I went. With your iPhone? With my iPhone, actually I took a, I took an A seven as well, and I thought a guy with a camera outside West, miss Robby, just a guy with a camera outside West, miss Robby, and a couple of crosses, and I needed a couple of people that, from the film, they just looked like, interesting, but smart, but whatever, who, I got the shots and stole the shots.
Fantastic. Now, you couldn't have done that a few years ago. You would've. So the tools are there for people to tell stories still. That's right. But anyway, I did hold the thing steady and actually put it in
Nigel Levy: a clamp. You said there's so much, there's so many visuals around now, isn't there? The challenge might be just to get people to look at your stuff.
There's, there's visuals, video your phone. So much distraction. Oh yeah. No, it's terrible.
John Mathieson: I remember talking with two, um, two ladies at Black Knight Festival, which is very good sort of northern festival up in Thailand every year, and it's the surrounding Baltic countries and, but anyway, it encompasses, doesn't encompass much Hollywood, but they might find some Uzbekistan, but, and some stuff from Farfield like Vietnam or career again.
But though distributors talking one of those more kind of industry type talks and they were these two ladies from Sony and they were talking about arrival, you know, the. Feel that film. Oh you know, well, well we don't spoil that 'cause you're 50% watch that. 'cause women don't like science fiction. Hang on a minute this, so I jumped on How dare you said something about science fiction.
It is about a choice of a woman. If she could see, if she knew what her life would be in this chart. She had a child with, had this great love story and she had a child and that child died, would she know? Would she do that again? That is like Sophie's trust. That is a huge question. And I sort slammed them from a great height because, well, I was standing up above them, but how dare you say that this young Audi Young, not Audi audience, whatever people listening to.
So I met them afterwards and actually we all got on famously and they talked about what they do and they said, we do the festivals and there's 10,000 films. About 10, about 5,000 will get on the circuit. We, and we pick up. Two, even if you make most genius small film and these two ladies from Sony, are they even gonna get a whiff of it?
Hear about it, let alone see it. So with that in mind, I think just do your thing. Don't worry about it. Just carry on regardless. Make films for yourself. Make sure maybe people understand them, but make them for yourself. Make it yours. Don't make a genre film. If you are, but make sure it's yours. It's kooky and beyond any tangible way that anybody else don't mimic stuff.
You'll have your own ideas. Don't worry about that. You will if you try and buy your way. And yeah, you'll end up eating McDonald's and that don't taste too good after a while.
Nigel Levy: But that's great advice. Be yourself. Is there any hope you have really? I hope you enjoyed that conversation with John and found it useful.
If you're interested in working with me at the doc Fix, all the links you need are in the notes below. There's a case study you could sign up for at apply dot the doc fix.com that goes into some detail on how the system has been used in some of the TV shows and documentaries. I've been involved with.
There's a lot of information there you'll find useful. And if you want to get in touch, you can send me an email to [email protected] and I'd be happy to hear from you. And as the last thing, if you're enjoying this podcast and wanna support the show and help keep it free, you could do a number of things.
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