And Not Pick One

[00:24] <AndrewRogue> And Not Pick One: Hello litfic language.
[00:39] <Ranmilia> ugh
[00:39] <Ranmilia> UGH
[00:39] <Ranmilia> i have spent ALL DAY thinking about what to say about that one and dreading how long it's going to take
[00:40] <AndrewRogue> I'm not sure what to do with this one.
[00:40] <Ranmilia> interested in your thoughts
[00:40] <Ranmilia> PRETTY SURE IT'S NOT YOURS but beyond that
[00:40] <AndrewRogue> So, they definitely fuck up the end in a way that really confuses the matter.
[00:40] <Ranmilia> i don't even know how to feel
[00:40] <Ranmilia> except that yes, that one scene definitely does not work
[00:40] <AndrewRogue> I suspect they just messed up their human vs pony terminology
[00:41] <AndrewRogue> And didn't catch it
[00:41] <AndrewRogue> But transitioning like that with no indicator is bad, bad regardless.
[00:41] <Ranmilia> wait where are you talking about?
[00:41] <AndrewRogue> "…to the you who is better than you in every way?" Luna asks.
[00:41] <AndrewRogue> They're sitting together on that cliffside atop Canter Pe
[00:41] <AndrewRogue> That scene
[00:41] <Ranmilia> yeah
[00:42] <Ranmilia> those are ponies
[00:42] <Ranmilia> i'm pretty sure
[00:42] <AndrewRogue> So am I
[00:42] <AndrewRogue> But
[00:42] <AndrewRogue>  past her bare feet
[00:42] <AndrewRogue> Celestia twirls a finger nervously through her hair.
[00:42] <Ranmilia> ah geez really
[00:42] <Ranmilia> right right someone said that.
[00:42] <Ranmilia> yeah that whole scene just does not work
[00:43] <AndrewRogue> At a broader level, I think it diminishes the work because we -already know- about pony Celestia and pony Luna.
[00:43] <AndrewRogue> So we really don't need to cut to them anyway
[00:43] <Ranmilia> yeah
[00:43] <AndrewRogue> The most we really should have from them is the letter response.
[00:44] <Ranmilia> i'm not even sure we should have that
[00:45] <AndrewRogue> Beyond that.
[00:45] <AndrewRogue> Uh.
[00:45] <Ranmilia> you could just end the story on knocking on sunset's door and asking to write to luna.
[00:45] <Ranmilia> that was a pretty nice character change moment.
[00:46] <AndrewRogue> Actual prose is quite good.
[00:46] <AndrewRogue> The story reads well.
[00:46] <AndrewRogue> I'm not so sure about the content.
[00:46] <Ranmilia> mostly, yeah.
[00:47] <Ranmilia> the first section really doesn't sit well with me.  both generally, and in the context of the story.
[00:48] <Ranmilia> i can't come up with a coherent ethos for celestia's decision there that makes sense with the later story.
[00:49] <AndrewRogue> Yeah. She seems to deal with that issue, at a broad level, early enough that it shouldn't be what leads.
[00:49] <Ranmilia> like... her big life changing revelations, according to the REST of the story, are "don't try to protect the youth, let them fly" and "don't try to be a perfect angel statue, be yourself"
[00:50] <Ranmilia> but then this opening scene, which is a flash forward after she's supposed to have learned those things... she firmly resolves to do EXACTLY THOSE THINGS???
[00:50] <AndrewRogue> yeah. Tht didn't occur to me
[00:50] <Ranmilia> and she "knows in her mind that this is right"?
[00:51] <Ranmilia> A. it doesn't make sense with the later story and B. that's pretty dangerous, dictating ethics to your readers!  *i* don't agree that was the right call!
[00:51] <AndrewRogue> You know, the more I look at this, the more this is kinda weird.
[00:52] <AndrewRogue> Because after reuniting with Luna she has that huge life revelation and everything.
[00:52] <AndrewRogue> And it does seem like this is immense backslide from that position.
[00:52] <AndrewRogue> Which makes that hella weird.
[00:52] <Ranmilia> the former can be explained by character drift, i guess (but that plays into my initial reactions that this was very lazily written).  the latter... remains a pervasive issue, though toned down a little.
[00:53] <AndrewRogue> I mean I guess you could take it as this is such a world shattering event, but in that case it really shouldn't be the start of the story.
[00:53] <Ranmilia> when you take the story down to its base level, it's Sad Sunbutt, angsting about her poor life choices.  just dressed up very pretty.
[00:53] <AndrewRogue> Yeah. That's the other problem I have.
[00:54] <AndrewRogue> This is very much lit-fic shaped melodrama
[00:54] <Ranmilia> so we avoid the easy calls of being derivative and well trodden.  but then we have to address the more high level issues with that conceit.
[00:54] <AndrewRogue> It is really pretty, though.
[00:54] <Ranmilia> first and foremost being that celestia's life is not actually bad, at all.
[00:54] <AndrewRogue> Yeah. Celestia's struggle is... a weird one.
[00:55] <AndrewRogue> Not one I can't relate to as a strong proponent of first world problems
[00:55] <AndrewRogue> But... yeah
[00:55] <AndrewRogue> Its very meandery, overall.
[00:56] <Ranmilia> what struggle?  she's a multimillion dollar heiress, marries royalty for a while, clearly financially set for life, apparently also hypercompetent and able to bluff her way into a guidance counselor position at an upper class high school and then parlay that into ascending to principal, and finds that career track fulfilling
[00:56] <AndrewRogue> Hey man. Dreaming of being an angel is rough.
[00:56] <AndrewRogue> <<
[00:57] <Ranmilia> fell out with her sister for a while, sure, but had no trouble reconciling with her afterwards (luna's kind of saintly in this...) and only did so in the first place because she thought she was defending the wishes of other family members.
[00:58] <Ranmilia> broke up with blueblood eventually, sure, but had a lot of fun with him in the meantime, and the story goes to lengths to point out that it was a both sides at fault thing.
[01:00] <AndrewRogue> That is... fair. I dunno. Self-doubt is real, but you raise a really solid point that huClestia is uh... kinda cheating at life's point buy system for character construction
[01:01] <Ranmilia> this is beyond first world problems.  even in the middle of angsting about herself, she has no problem going "oh yeah, tens of thousands of dollars in property damage, literal magic, whatever, i'm 100% confident i'll be able to just talk all the problems and investigations away.  i'll just hit the school board with these slides."
[01:01] <Ranmilia> and is apparently completely justified in this confidence.
[01:01] <AndrewRogue> You know
[01:01] <AndrewRogue> I'd say you are devastating this story on my slate.
[01:02] <AndrewRogue> But the only real competition it has is The Nightmare Macabre.
[01:02] <Ranmilia> (i think i'm going to wind up just pasting this conversation as my commentary because i'm getting out all my stuff here and can't justify the time to pretty it up a bunch)
[01:02] <Ranmilia> (if you're okay with that.  if not i'll edit you out.)
[01:03] <AndrewRogue> Nope. I'm fine with it.
[01:05] <Ranmilia> so... yeah, it's pretty.  but what, exactly, was the story being told?  the more i think about it the less i know.  (even discounting the wacky scene.)
[01:06] <AndrewRogue> I -think-
[01:06] <AndrewRogue> I can identify the problem.
[01:06] <Ranmilia> the one thing i wanted some resolution on is whether her dreams were caused by magic, and if anything was going to happen about that.  but... ????
[01:07] <AndrewRogue> It's the reconcilliation with Luna and spending a half decade stretching her metaphorical wings.
[01:07] <AndrewRogue> Those two scenes undermine the emotional arc.
[01:07] <AndrewRogue> Because they are largely her coming to terms with her dreams, life, etc.
[01:08] <AndrewRogue> We -could- see the arrival of magic in the human world and the discovery of another her as completely undermining that.
[01:08] <AndrewRogue> But the story doesn't arc that way.
[01:08] <AndrewRogue> Since it opens with that AND her in a slightly different headspace than I think she should be given those two scenes.
[01:09] <AndrewRogue> Because I -think- the entire story is just supposed to be Celestia accepting herself and her flaws and foibles.
[01:09] <Ranmilia> (what flaws?)
[01:10] <Ranmilia> (ok that was just a potshot.  but yes.)
[01:10] <AndrewRogue> >:| LOOK MAN I AM JUST DESCRIBING WHAT I THINK THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE
[01:10] <Ranmilia> yeah.  i agree.  i'm just not sure i see the arc actually played out.
[01:11] <Ranmilia> ... which is also what you said.
[01:11] <AndrewRogue> Yeah.
[01:11] <Ranmilia> it is very pretty.
[01:12] <AndrewRogue> I think the other fix is just to make the reconcilliation and getting her life back on track less... full?
[01:12] <AndrewRogue> Actually, so hey. Here is me getting real petty for a sec.
[01:12] <AndrewRogue> I think this real nails the issue.
[01:12] <AndrewRogue> "They need a principal, after all. They don't need a dreamer."
[01:12] <AndrewRogue> Howeve
[01:13] <AndrewRogue> r
[01:13] <AndrewRogue> In fixing her life
[01:13] <AndrewRogue> "Celestia spends half a decade stretching her metaphorical wings.
[01:13] <AndrewRogue> She's learning how to be an angel, now."
[01:13] <AndrewRogue> Followed further by "She starts dreaming again."
[01:13] <AndrewRogue> Both of which are events that preceed that first scene
[01:14] <Ranmilia> what even makes her think they need a principal rather than a dreamer?  i just don't get that, anywhere really.
[01:15] <Ranmilia> (aside from authorial prescriptivism, of course)
[01:15] <AndrewRogue> Well, I think that's playing at the message that she has to keep the wings in her dreams hidden. It is just that that idea is almost wholly undermined by the middle where she gets her life back by spreading her metaphorical wings.
[01:15] <AndrewRogue> I think you said it somewhere up there, but I think there was a drift in the story's idea at some point.
[01:15] <Ranmilia> yeah.
[01:16] <AndrewRogue> So where we start is not where we end.