We need balance...

<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> I must say, the nullifying bolt for witch hunters are interesting. They are far more devastating to some feilds of magic then others, but all should fear them.
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<Emoniph> Been speaking with way about that as ways to keep the balance
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Ya, as have I. We have been thinking up ways to get around the armor.
<Emoniph> Yeah, getting a bit of a bad rep is that (like the IC2 armor)
<Emoniph> Making it weak to a specifc weapon was my idea (gold swords or something)
<Emoniph> The witchery bark armor is useless against any wooden weapons
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> We been thinking of potions. You have X effect, and the armor slowly starts eating you...
* Pokefenn looks up the bark armour
<Emoniph> So witch hunter bolts, wooden swords, etc.
<Emoniph> Nah, potions is sucky since the vanilla ones are one slot each, makes then useless as an offensive weapon
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> I also sugested a late game option for a bound sword upgrade to deal with the armor.
<Pokefenn> ah, that one
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, we have eight use potions.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> So one slot for eight tries.
<Emoniph> My reasoning is that you eath make it an early game item from the same mod, or a late game item from vanilla.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, as it stand you can make an early game item that will kill almost any player in bound armor.
<Emoniph> How does a player beat a witch/bloodmage/thaumaturge/ars magica block if they don't want to do a specific mod.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> LAte game vanilla harming potions.
<Emoniph> Doesn't work, we tried it
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> I have as well. It works.
<Emoniph> Potions are too easy to dodge and the inventory limit wreaks you
<Emoniph> the blood mage wins every time we tired
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, the early game blood mage also has drowning potions.
<Emoniph> not seen those
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Basicly, you take "Drown" damage with it. You land one, and it can kill the blood mage.
<Emoniph> I would like to think on a server that the witch hunters have a good chance to beat wizard types and they are always beeted by h2h
<Emoniph> *beaten
<Emoniph> or two equal power wizard (of different discaplines have a chance to beat each other)
<Emoniph> But intermod balance is never going to happen
<Emoniph> e.g. my epic weapon (huntsmans spear) does +1 damage over the best vanilla weaon
<Emoniph> to get the spear you must fight a serious boss about 4 times.
<Emoniph> cmopare against the base damage of mid game weapons from BM and TiC
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, we have to balance against other mods as well as vanilla.
<Emoniph> this is true, but ulimately why have a weapon TiC that can do 30+ damage
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Ya. It is a bit silly...
<Emoniph> vanilla max damage (for which all mods are scaled is) around 15-20 points
<Emoniph> diamond sword + sharpness V + strength II + crit
<Emoniph> I guess we could add a scalig factor to mobs health and damage based on the level in a given mod the player reaces
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, we have a unique problem with the fact that is IS blood magic: We must have items and things that are powerful to balance the risk you take using it.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> We show little mercy. One wrong step, and your dead.
<Emoniph> That is a hard one, I like the way it is done in Dragon Age for example
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> You spend your heath pool to cast spells, right?
<Emoniph> You power you spells from your current life pool. Risking death in the battle but with extremely potent magic
<Emoniph> consdier, basic spell does X damage, powered version costs 6 life slots but does 2*X damage
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, that brings up the problem of limatations here. We can only do so much with ten hearts.
<Emoniph> That is the inherent balance
<Emoniph> as yo ulevel up you use you blood more effeciently
<Emoniph> but still run t the risk of dying.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Yet things that we have like pasive rituals are worthless if you die to them every few minutes.
<Emoniph> I guess that would be a different mechanic, I was just refering to the instant battle spells
<Emoniph> Blood is so versitile
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Hmm. Idea: The bound armor, while active, slowly drains the users HP bar. Once every ten seconds or so.
<Light_Alch> Spells cost less hearts after upgrades?
<Emoniph> Another thing could be the spells are more powerful when you have less hearts
<Emoniph> this way you must try to keep your life total around 50% to get the best balance of damage vs risk of dying.
<Light_Alch> Also one could restore life with vanilla potions
<Emoniph> I did this with hunger and the Hand of Death
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> I think we hit the jackpot. Every time the armor "Soaks" damage, you get three seconds of hunger.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> So small pecks at the armor slowly kill the person inside.
<Emoniph> How about when theere is no hunger left it start eating you
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Ya, could work...
<Emoniph> Probably would mean nonne would use it and instead use the runic armor though
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> So PvP the BM acts as a "Tank".
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> They soak damage, all while eating. They can deal big damage, but they also can dish it out...
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> They can take big damage*
<Pokefenn> The problem is, that you can store so much LP
<Emoniph> Not when the witch hunters are done with the BM
<Pokefenn> Way designed the armour under the idea of "LP = Health" but you can have INCREDIBLE amounts of LP >.>
<Pokefenn> hehe
<Emoniph> ALthough Last Chance from open Blocks can be exploited in much the same way
<Emoniph> Experience farms, etc.
<Pokefenn> Oh, tahts the one that takes experience instead of dying, right?
<Emoniph> yep
<Pokefenn> xD
<Emoniph> What about a high level witchery rite that makes all mobs have double damage/health :)
<Emoniph> scary for everyone (like MC used to be)
<Emoniph> oh btw I am currently playing (i.e.) testin Withcery in 1.7 :D
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Sigh... The problems of tring balance a unique idea. When you have nothing similar, where is the line of balance?
<Emoniph> I always use vanilla as the balance point
<Emoniph> What is the max damage, what is the max damage mitigation, etc.
<Pokefenn> :o
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, then you have the problem of "EE2".
<Pokefenn> So you got it all compiling?
<Pokefenn> Your fast
<Emoniph> Poke, yep 5700 changes in 1 long weekend (9:00-11:59 3 days)
<Pokefenn> Whoah
<Emoniph> EE2 showed how to not do a mod
<Pokefenn> Thats because he decided that he was gonna rewrite it >.>
<Emoniph> it was funb to play solo but at the end I was bored.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> When balanced only to vanilla, it tends to fall behind other mods. Way tries going with vanilla balance, with still keeping other mods in mind.
<Pokefenn> Oh
<Pokefenn> ignore me
<Pokefenn> Im reading the convo wrong :P
* Pokefenn fades into darkness
<Emoniph> I would use thaumcraft as the next balance point
<Pokefenn> I found EE2 fun, as long as i limited myself so much, trying not to transmute at all
<Pokefenn> And just spending millions of diamonds to make sure fancy toys
<Emoniph> I believe AM2 is considered OP and many people don't install it because of this. Thaumcraft is everywhere
<Pokefenn> and also not using things like the destruction catalyst
<Pokefenn> *sighs* looks like people on the FTB forums are back to the topic of how we should have a magical energy converter, or a universal magical energy mod <,<
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, you must also keep in mind that blood magic would always NEED to be a little better then TC then, as there is little risk in using TC.
<Emoniph> i would go more along the line of a bust damage vs sustained mechanic for that
<Emoniph> *burst
<Emoniph> So long as the zergrush and infinite LP farms exist any "slightly" better because WAY better
<Pokefenn> Yeah, we've been bugging way to try to sort both of them out >.>
<Emoniph> Consider, each death in BM would cost you one life full of LP, this way people would not want to die
<Emoniph> for a high end Blood Mage this is nothing, but for a low end blood mage it is really risky AND there is no gain from Zerg Rush
<Emoniph> Probably balanced, I have yet to hear a counter argument that holds up
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, you still need to keep altar crafting in mind.
<Emoniph> I fear that zerg rush becomes the only way yo play BM to start with
<Emoniph> But this dying costing you significantly justifies the extra power
<Emoniph> You could go further and if you die at the hands of anothe rplayer, you lose all you LP, this way you can be very powerful but you will always fight reluctently
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> We've had a lot of ideas for this, but so many have problems. The last Idea we had was for the altar to start casting potion effects that made your hearts worthless.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Lossing all your LP is HARSH. You don't know how long it takes to fill a SN.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> One player walks up with an armor piercing weapon, and hours with of work is lost in seconds.
<Emoniph> That's the point, dying must become very, very bad if you are super powerful.
<Emoniph> Losing 5k LP per death is not so bad though, just stops the zerg rush
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well then you have the problem of a "Troller" chain killing you while you try to rebuild.
<Emoniph> Not sure what that is
<Emoniph> it takes a few seconds to recove 5K lp
<Emoniph> down to 1/2 heart, then you wait to heal
<Emoniph> But you cannot just kill youself near a bed for infinitle LP
<Emoniph> It somehow feels very wrong to reward players for dying
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> We shune everyone who tries that. Most blood magic I know refuse to do it.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Blood mages*
<Emoniph> it is a well known exploilt used by a lot of people and was raised in the forum as a problem. Question, despite a perfectly viable way to stop it, why not ddo so?
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Because every way we had had problems.
<Emoniph> The way I propose?
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> AS I said, if they have no LP in there network, and only intend to craft, then you way holds no power.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Without LP in their network, they have nothing to lose from death.
<Emoniph> I still am not getting it. You use a orb to get LP (almost 5k) you use the LP but must now wait for your health to regen. Or you go killing other things. If you die while out and about you have lost at most 20 hearts of LP, which when you respawn you can get back by using the orb and waiting for the health to regen
<Emoniph> Basically diing costs a few minutes of time. But zerg rush becomes unviable
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> But then you have people who would make a zerg altar.
<Pokefenn> Nobody really uses the orbs directly :p
<Emoniph> I start with the start game. Balancing other tiers would need looking at the exploits. Zerg Rush is a start game exploit
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Only dislocation ruins, then keep dying to fill some tank. When their done, they pipe it into an altar with an orb.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> That is a mid and end game explote then.
<Emoniph> Perhaps the cost of dying increases with each item yo craft that allows the exploits
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> But then dislaction ruins become worthless. You need a LOT of them to move liquid out of the altar.
<Emoniph> so after you have invested a significant start game time (i.e. without zerg rush) and you have the infrastructure at mid game, you *can* exploit it to progress faster to end game but you have a risk of extreme loss so long as anything like you mentioned is attached to your netwrk???
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> But the ruins are NEVER attached to the soul network, any blood altars!
<Emoniph> Just brian dumping in line with what you said, extra power but at an ongoing cost.
<Emoniph> And you can attach anything to anything ;)
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Only blood altars*
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well that would compleatly chance core mechanics.
<Emoniph> Well, antythng can be programmed to attach to anything
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Change*
<Emoniph> Blood Magic v2 :D
<Emoniph> Currently BM is *very** powerful and exploitable too
<Pokefenn> I joked about how way should rework the mod in 1.7 (both mechanics and code), and i joked about BM2, he was very angry xD
<Emoniph> It is also fun don;t get me wrong
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, that become the problem. Nerfing the mod, without removing the fun.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> It becomes a lose-lose situaltion very quickly.
<Emoniph> We are just discussing balance. Equivalent power to other mods, or more power at an *ongoing* cost
<Emoniph> Thaumium sword 6 damage.
<Emoniph> Diamond Sword 7 damage
<Emoniph> Huntsmans spear 8 damage
<Emoniph> amathyst sword 8 damage (takes a ton of time to get this)
<Emoniph> BM sword 12 damage
<Emoniph> TiC weapons 30+ damage
<Pokefenn> Sharpness 5 BM Sword with strength potion... one of the funniest things ever
<Pokefenn> Using smite instead, i could kill a wither in like 5 seconds
<Emoniph> Withers are easy to kill :P
<Emoniph> summon deep underground
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Well, balancing a mod like this is a nightmare. You always need to factor in ongoing costs. The spear does nothing for just holding it, but our sword does.
<Pokefenn> They really are, but the speed is what matters :3
<Pokefenn> Its not "i can kill a wither!" its "i killed mine in x seconds" :P
<Emoniph> :)
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> I'll pastebin our chat to give to Way later. He'll want to see some of this. And I must thank you for your time and insight.
<Emoniph> I have spoken with him about much of this anyhow.
<Pokefenn> We all know that way is super stubborn :P
<Pokefenn> Most mod authors are actually, but way is very :P
<Pokefenn> He will stab me since i said that, if he finds out xD
<Emoniph> Mods are a passion thing. I really didn't want to add the witch hunters, but players were right, you hd to be a witch to counter the curses, and many people did not wat to do magic
<Emoniph> So I have nerfed witchery to make it play better on servers.
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> One last question: With the hunger every hit thing from earlier, would you call the bound armor more balanced if it only blocked physical damage without any upgrades?
<Emoniph> i have gotten a bit of flack fro msome witches fordoing this, but you can't please everybdy
<Emoniph> Isn't the upgrade dynamic the way to free your inventory fro all the sigils?
<Pokefenn> Not really
<Pokefenn> they work differently in the armour
<Pokefenn> It was just a way for way to add in upgrades
<Pokefenn> the Sigil of Holding is the way to save inventory space
<Emoniph> ah gotch
<Pokefenn> Way didnt watn to add in loads of new items for upgrades, so he added in the sigil upgrade slots instead
<Emoniph> honestly said, I would just add a hard counter like each hit from a gold sword or a ghast tearified sword makes the armor eat the player so that the player needs to change tactics if they see a knowledgable other player holding such a sword
<Emoniph> This way in single player the player ca nbe as imortal as the like, and in PVP there is a way to get the bloodmage to change tactics without having to change the mod in any way
<Mrvideogame||TheMadman> Alright. I'll tell way the next update we need is one he doesn't want to make...
<Emoniph> *any significant way
<Pokefenn> hrm, that would work