[03:18] Disaster Area: back on smogon I intend to write an opinion piece regarding my opinions on ubers/ou/ag tiering
[03:18] Disaster Area: =]
[03:19] Disaster Area: since I think I have some sort of a solution to the tier's [ou/uber] woes
[03:19] Disaster Area: :O
[03:19] +Fireburn: ._.
[03:19] Disaster Area: I think dice was floating around something of a similar nature at one point on IRC..
[03:19] Disaster Area: which is bizarre as him and I rarely agree but anyway
[03:19] Disaster Area: my idea was with some acknowledgemtn of how we
[03:19] Disaster Area: define 'uber' is in and of itself pretty arbitary and that
[03:20] Disaster Area: since we have taken the measure to remove ray and it seems that the state of play is still not satisfactory for a suprisingly large amount of the highest-skilled playerbase
[03:20] Disaster Area: and also since OU has the 'matchup' issues
[03:20] Disaster Area: which basically boils down to the fact you can't cover every 'a-rank' threat with a team of 6 pokemon
[03:21] Disaster Area: but the fact megas answer large swatches of them each, I describe it as effectively
[03:21] Disaster Area: being allowed to have one 'uber' each on a team with the mega-evolution restriction [effectively an item and switch-in restriction]
[03:21] Disaster Area: which is then not greatly suprising that you can't really cover near-everything with 6 mons since the ruleset when viewed from that viewpoint is bizarre
[03:21] Disaster Area: so overall my suggestion is that
[03:22] Disaster Area: (although it would logistically be a very difficult task for certain systems to adapt to)
[03:22] Disaster Area: be that we create OU as being the current ORAS UBERS tier with a handful of bans [something like the one I've been testing out recently with other members of the community]
[03:22] Disaster Area: I have a ladder and have nearly completed a minitour and some preliminary viability rankings
[03:23] Disaster Area: with bans on primals mega mence shadow tag geomancy evasion bp clause
[03:23] Disaster Area: whilst the ruleset might be a bit arbitary in some ways [e.g. unbanning geo or possibly even shadow tag might be preferential to some players say]
[03:23] Disaster Area: I think that it's a more logical and mechanically-respecting answer than say
[03:23] Disaster Area: removing all the megas like the test OU ladder
[03:24] Disaster Area: furthermore if we consider the OU tier as it actually stands
[03:24] Disaster Area: only 40% of the pokemon in it aren't legendary or pseudo-legendary or possessing a mega-evolution
[03:24] Disaster Area: so the concept of a tier like ubers with those bans having a greater number of legendaries as a reason not to do it holds little weight [some pokemon like mega sableye would be in the tier for example] although the difference between cover legendaries and other times is
[03:25] Disaster Area: worthy of note, kyurem-b is permitted in OU and was last generation too
[03:25] Disaster Area: the main trouble is probably how it affects the tournament schedule [grand slam, SPL] but ultimately if it's the cost for a 'balanced' flagship and tournament-related tier
[03:25] Disaster Area: then surely it's worthwhile?
[03:26] Disaster Area: Anyway that's what the bulk of my article will basically say
[03:26] Disaster Area: I appreciate my opinion is probably somewhat controversial and requires more discussion etc.
[03:26] Disaster Area: but that's legitimately what I think and feel it ought to be floated in public so people feel
[03:26] Disaster Area: more ready to challenge the status quo to deal with the purported problems within these tiers
[03:26] Disaster Area: =]
[03:27] Disaster Area: phew that's made me feel a lot better now ^_^
[03:44] +Fireburn: your idea boils down to "lets make ubers the new ou" which is rather arbitrary and tbh pointless since all you're accomplishing is renaming the tiers
[03:44] Disaster Area: well saying 'these mons are too strong' is equally arbitary
[03:45] Disaster Area: but allowing people one mega [uber] per team is pretty imbalanced clearly
[03:45] Disaster Area: as evidence shows rather than theorymonning
[03:45] Disaster Area: and we work with a top-down usage system
[03:45] Disaster Area: so we might as well start at the very highest point where it's actually balanced
[03:45] Disaster Area: rather than some slightly lower point for history's sake
[03:47] Disaster Area: i wonder if a similar thing might work with BW but in all honesty it's not the main meta atm and I'm more concerned about the 'flagship' current metas rather than those which were flagship before
[03:47] Disaster Area: due to the larger playerbase and importance etc.
[03:48] +Fireburn: it really doesn't fix anything on its own and basically boils down to "lets rename ubers so we have an excuse to balance it"
[03:48] +Fireburn: I dont see this catching on, sorry
[03:48] Disaster Area: well ubers with those handful of bans
[03:48] Disaster Area: is more balanced than current uber AND current OU
[03:48] Disaster Area: and it's no more arbitary than the current system
[03:49] Disaster Area: also if I were just looking for an excuse to balance it
[03:49] Disaster Area: the fact it's in grand slam and SPL
[03:49] Disaster Area: is more than enough reason
[03:49] • Disaster Area shrugs
edit 1:
[04:02] +Fireburn: even if it were to be implemented, doing it in the middle of a gen would be impossible due to the very large amount of time needed to sort out the ripple in all the lower tiers - this affects more than just ou and uber
[04:02] Disaster Area: i acknowledge that and it's part of the cost/benefit that has to be considered sure
[04:08] +Fireburn: its more like doing it rn would be unfeasible
[04:08] Disaster Area: is that a because of the current state of upcoming tours and thus saying that
[04:08] Disaster Area: it could be done just at a different time in the calendar
[04:09] Disaster Area: floating of course the hypothesis that you would want to do it [which you currently disagree with ofc]
[04:10] +Fireburn: no its because the effects would ripple down to lower tiers and require an enormous amount of time to sort out + we can't guarantee that the playerbases of lower tiers will just roll over and accept this
[04:10] +Fireburn: there is no real way to implement this in an orderly fashion in the middle of a gen
[04:10] Disaster Area: but it's only in the middle of a gen that we'd realise it nessecary
[04:10] Disaster Area: catch-22
[04:11] +Fireburn: that doesnt change what I just said though
[04:12] Disaster Area: indeed, but ultimately I'm mainly trying to consider the situation with respect to the tiers being considered, and I know that with lower tiers that it is not so difficult to implement and stagger the change even if it's naturally something
[04:12] Disaster Area: they'd be pretty unhappy with

---- responses to this log ----

(ubers room driver)
[before edit 1]
[03:55] Disaster Area: what do u think?
[03:56] Disaster Area: as an OU and Ubers player of somewhat high talent?
[03:56] Dilwar: i think its interesting oo
[03:56] Dilwar: would like to see how it goes

(ou room driver)
[before edit 1]
[03:59] jpw234: i disagree with the premise that the mega mechanic is somehow equivalent to "one uber per team"
[03:59] jpw234: i also very muc henjoy the current OU tier
[04:00] jpw234: so i'm not motivated to make any sort of massive changes like you're proposing

(ubers room owner, global mod)
[04:58] @shrang: I've been wanting ubers to be standard since dpp
[04:59] @shrang: but it's something WAY out of our control
[04:59] Disaster Area: well I've passed it on to aim
[04:59] @shrang: the whole concept of OU is quite arbitrary anyway
[04:59] Disaster Area: who's probably got about as much influence as I could reasonably hope out of someone
[04:59] Disaster Area: who might listen to me
[04:59] Disaster Area: I'm glad you see the logic of it though, I felt it would probably resound with you more
[05:00] Disaster Area: I personally think having mega ray unbanned in this hypothetical new ubers tier would be sensible, I mean
[05:00] Disaster Area: 1 people don't like ubers as it is
[05:00] Disaster Area: 2 it would keep with the philosophy of not banning shit
[05:00] @shrang: I remember back in dpp when I was like
[05:00] Disaster Area: failing that we could just call
[05:00] @shrang: "wait why is OU standard"
[05:00] Disaster Area: that 'ubers' AG
[05:00] @shrang: "there is literally no reason for it to be"
[05:00] Disaster Area: and just have OU as the top tier, but that tier basically being a balanced version of ubers
[05:00] Disaster Area: yah I understand that people like
[05:00] Disaster Area: david stone even considered
[05:00] @shrang: got shot down before anyone replied
[05:00] Disaster Area: testing shit like kyorge in OU
[05:00] @shrang: :(
[05:00] Disaster Area: yeah
[05:01] Disaster Area: :(
[05:01] @shrang: altho
[05:01] @shrang: thing is you can have a "balanced ubers tier"
[05:01] @shrang: which would just be OU anyway
[05:01] Disaster Area: yeah exactly
[05:01] Disaster Area: that's the whole point isn't it? =]
[05:01] @shrang: so you may as well just
[05:02] @shrang: propose the idea to suspect test all the potentially viable ubers in OU
[05:02] @shrang: instead of merging tiers and banning from ubers
[05:03] Disaster Area: basically whatit comes down to is something similar to or exactly like what I've proposed is something you'd agree with and in theory had this happened a generation or two ago you would have agreed with it in the context of those metagames as well
[05:03] Disaster Area: nb =]
[05:03] @shrang: yeh

(ubers room driver)
[06:33] Mr.378: After reading this I know what you're saying
[06:34] Mr.378: I agree with this and always have

(ou room mod)
[19:57] Sharpteeth: but yeah, as they said, if anything, that would have to be at the start of gen 7
[19:57] Disaster Area: well
[19:57] Disaster Area: there's a catch-22 there
[19:58] Disaster Area: because we wouldn't even know
[19:58] Disaster Area: if it's nessecary in gen 7
[19:58] Disaster Area: until we're too far in
[19:58] Disaster Area: to do anything about it
[19:58] Disaster Area: also the release date of gen 7 is totally unconfirmed so we could be stuck here longer than we expect if nintendo act suprisingly
[19:58] Sharpteeth: the problem is that any of the current Uber
[19:58] Sharpteeth: is centralizing in OU by itself
[19:59] Sharpteeth: so testing 1 by 1 will lead to nothing
[19:59] Sharpteeth: the other option, dump everything in OU and watch
[19:59] Sharpteeth: would be done much better at the start of a gen
[19:59] Disaster Area: yah that's more or less what i'm suggesting is the last thing
[19:59] Disaster Area: effectively
[19:59] Disaster Area: dumping all in OU
[19:59] Disaster Area: yeah but
[19:59] Disaster Area: if it means that
[19:59] Disaster Area: you play this whole gen
[19:59] Disaster Area: with it being broken
[19:59] Disaster Area: and the whole time
[19:59] Disaster Area: being suspect tests
[19:59] Disaster Area: if you can redo the whole thing and suffer for a long time but less time than you otherwise would
[19:59] Disaster Area: why not
[20:00] Sharpteeth: because, imagine we dump everything in OU
[20:00] Disaster Area: i mean it makes no sense to
[20:00] Sharpteeth: start sorting things out
[20:00] Disaster Area: choose the arbitarly ban line
[20:00] Disaster Area: is
[20:00] Disaster Area: say
[20:00] Disaster Area: genesect
[20:00] Sharpteeth: and 2 weeks in, Gen 7 is announced
[20:00] Disaster Area: for what it's worth
[20:00] Disaster Area: another important thing
[20:00] Disaster Area: I have already
[20:00] Disaster Area: started doing testing
[20:00] Disaster Area: of seeing what this 'ubers' tier with a handful of bans
[20:00] Disaster Area: would look like
[20:00] Disaster Area: with some players who are reasonably well respected enough
[20:00] Sharpteeth: what's the handful, btw?
[20:00] Disaster Area: like auth in ubers/comp tutoring
[20:01] Disaster Area: the handful is
[20:01] Disaster Area: primals
[20:01] Sharpteeth: assuming it's red orb, salamencite, xenreas?
[20:01] Disaster Area: mega mence
[20:01] Disaster Area: shadow tag
[20:01] Disaster Area: geomancy
[20:01] Disaster Area: evasion
[20:01] Disaster Area: full bp
[20:01] Sharpteeth: mmm
[20:01] Disaster Area: experience as
[20:01] Disaster Area: a long time ubers player
[20:01] Sharpteeth: geomancy's an interesting one
[20:01] Disaster Area: says that that's a pretty good
[20:01] Disaster Area: approximate list
[20:01] Disaster Area: with more playtesting honestly I think
[20:01] Sharpteeth: ...no red orb?
[20:01] Disaster Area: geo would be fine to unban but
[20:01] Disaster Area: red orb is fucking insane bro
[20:01] Disaster Area: pdon makes ubers aids
[20:01] Disaster Area: as does mence
[20:01] Disaster Area: anyway whilst
[20:02] Disaster Area: removing one might make the other
[20:02] Disaster Area: less bad
[20:02] Disaster Area: I figured
[20:02] Disaster Area: sod both of them cos I know both currently cause problems
[20:02] Disaster Area: might as well just get a cleaner scenario
[20:02] Disaster Area: and make it more like xy which was
[20:02] Disaster Area: fairly balanced imo barring shadow tag
[20:02] Disaster Area: and there's obvs some new introductions in oras
[20:02] Disaster Area: mega diancie/sab, soul dew, custap
[20:03] Sharpteeth: mmm. well, another thought is that, even without the big 3
[20:03] Sharpteeth: this new OU's going to be fairly constrained
[20:03] Sharpteeth: compared to current OU
[20:03] Disaster Area: yeah and I personally think that's a good thing considering
[20:03] Disaster Area: all the players complaining about
[20:03] Disaster Area: team matchup more or less i.e.
[20:03] Disaster Area: too many top threats to be able to cover
[20:03] Disaster Area: with just 6 mons
[20:03] Disaster Area: in this teir there's still
[20:03] Disaster Area: a ton fo variety
[20:03] Disaster Area: but not so much
[20:04] Disaster Area: you can't actually
[20:04] Disaster Area: cover it all
[20:04] Disaster Area: lol
[20:04] Sharpteeth: you'd be looking at a OU tier 2/3 the size
[20:05] Disaster Area: yeah
[20:05] Disaster Area: and the issue is?
[20:05] Disaster Area: I mean like bro what do you think
[20:05] Disaster Area: the current issue with OU is
[20:05] Sharpteeth: Higher number of players.
[20:05] Sharpteeth: more players = more vocal opposition
[20:05] Sharpteeth: while the support stays just as quiet.
[20:06] Sharpteeth: 2 x bitching = more bitching
[20:06] Sharpteeth: 2 x no bitching = still no bitching
[20:06] Sharpteeth: Oh, and the 1 mega/team rule
[20:07] Sharpteeth: artificially enforces brokenness
[20:07] Disaster Area: yeah
[20:07] Sharpteeth: so I think your plan has merit
[20:07] Disaster Area: i can agree with the former thing being an issue
[20:07] Disaster Area: yeah
[20:07] Disaster Area: the latter aspect
[20:07] Disaster Area: is something that
[20:07] Disaster Area: inspired it quite a lot
[20:07] Disaster Area: it would probably mean that
[20:07] Disaster Area: the new UU would probably look
[20:07] Disaster Area: similar to current OU but with a handful of broken things in need of ban (maybe who knows)
[20:07] Sharpteeth: the new BL
[20:07] Disaster Area: + with a handful of megas removed
[20:07] Sharpteeth: will have even more megas
[20:07] Disaster Area: such as diancie and sableye
[20:08] Disaster Area: which would definitely get enough new OU usage
[20:08] Sharpteeth: really
[20:08] Sharpteeth: diancie and sableye
[20:08] Sharpteeth: competing with stuff like blaziken?
[20:08] Sharpteeth: and luke?
[20:08] Disaster Area: definitely
[20:08] Disaster Area: I'm being serious btw
[20:08] Disaster Area: atm I'm in a match too and have been most of the convo
[20:08] Disaster Area: it's nearly over so
[20:08] Disaster Area: let me finish it and I can
[20:08] Disaster Area: explain the details
[20:08] Disaster Area: after
[20:08] Sharpteeth: well, no need, I still think it's a good idea
[20:09] Sharpteeth: might have differing opinions on the specific result, but the concept is sound
[20:10] Disaster Area: well the main reason
[20:10] Disaster Area: sab in particular would definitely get enough usage
[20:10] Disaster Area: is two-fold
[20:10] Disaster Area: firstly it checks very nicely 2 of the best threats in the metagame
[20:10] Disaster Area: mewtwo (in pretty much every form too!)
[20:10] Disaster Area: and ekiller (arceus-normal with swords dance and extremespeed)
[20:10] Disaster Area: which were huge threats in XY, less so in ORAS due to new threats which are now removed being so dominant
[20:10] Disaster Area: the other thing is
[20:10] Disaster Area: the other really really huge threat
[20:11] Disaster Area: in this metagame
[20:11] Disaster Area: ho-oh
[20:11] Disaster Area: absolutely hates stealth rocks
[20:11] Disaster Area: and synergises nicely with mega sab for good measure
[20:11] Disaster Area: diancie is similarly good for checking ho-oh, being a rock setter that can set stealth rocks safely versus sableye, and some more minor traits too. Its own magic bounce is naturally a huge selling point
[20:12] Disaster Area: http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/showthread.php?3259-ORAS-Ubers-Tournament was the first minitour, which is now in the finals
[20:13] Disaster Area: http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/showthread.php?3245-RBY-1Z-OU-Viability-Rankings there's a preliminary.. I guess rough sketch? of what we'd expect in terms of viaibility
[20:13] Disaster Area: there's probably a few mons a little badly misplaced (i might be overrating lando-t in it for example)
[20:13] Disaster Area: and probably quite a lot like 1 small bit out
[20:13] Disaster Area: since the tier's still fairly underexplored
[20:14] Disaster Area: worth noting that amongst the players in the minitour, there's 2 current and 1 ex- mods of the ubers room who've been playing, as well as a driver from competitive tutoring, so it's not just an assortment of friends who have no sort of assessible talent xd
[20:15] Disaster Area: i mean ik room authority doesn't say too much but it should be enough to convince you it's not a crapshoot
[20:15] Disaster Area: fwiw, I'm an ex ubers room mod as well :o
[20:15] Sharpteeth: I've been convinced for the last 20 minutes ._.
[20:15] Disaster Area: but i resigned (in a rather appalling fashion though but nevermind that) cos I disliked xy so much by the end and knew oras was going to make things worse rather than better
[20:15] Disaster Area: lol
[20:15] Disaster Area: xd
[20:16] Disaster Area: well the more thoroughly I convince the better eh ;)
[20:16] Disaster Area: if you want to try it out I have a working ladder
[20:16] Disaster Area: on my friend's server
[20:16] Disaster Area: http://violetversion.psim.us/

(ou room mod)
[20:42] +Omegasization: sorry but that wont solve anything
[20:42] +Omegasization: thatll cause a check broken with broken scenario
[20:42] +Omegasization: I dont like it, sorry
[20:42] Disaster Area: ?
[20:42] Disaster Area: check broken with broken is fine if it means balanced is the result
[20:43] Disaster Area: the current OU mons are broken if you look at it from the perspective of NU or LC
[20:43] +Omegasization: that doesnt balance the meta
[20:43] Disaster Area: what if our current tiering
[20:43] Disaster Area: started with NU instead of OU more or less
[20:43] Disaster Area: (that subset of mons)
[20:43] Disaster Area: then someone said
[20:43] Disaster Area: wait let's drop like 50 mons in (like the scenario I'm saying now)
[20:43] Disaster Area: and then everyone would be like no
[20:43] Disaster Area: you can't check broken with broken
[20:43] Disaster Area: the thing is
[20:43] Disaster Area: checking one single broken thing
[20:43] Disaster Area: with one other broken thing
[20:43] Disaster Area: is an issue sure
[20:43] Disaster Area: but 20 broken things
[20:44] Disaster Area: can very well check eachother
[20:44] +Omegasization: Bruh sorry but im not interested in it
[20:44] +Omegasization: i cant see a future for it

Response by Minority Suspect (ubers room mod) is very long so can be seen here: http://pastebin.com/Zc3npeL7

(ubers room mod)
[20:55] Disaster Area: do you like the idea y/n?
[20:55] WreckDra: its not a bad one

David = M Dragon
[20:23:17] David: you are basically saying
[20:23:20] David: to balance ubers
[20:23:28] George S. [Disaster Area]: and also to make
[20:23:33] George S. [Disaster Area]: current ubers the first usage-based tier
[20:23:38] David: nah
[20:23:45] David: that will not happeb
[20:23:50] David: ubers wont be the 1st meta
[20:23:53] George S. [Disaster Area]: why?
[20:24:02] David: too many overpowered mons
[20:24:04] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's so arbitrary and doesn't make a jot of sense other than
[20:24:09] George S. [Disaster Area]: through the precedent of RBY/GSC
[20:24:15] George S. [Disaster Area]: I've done some testing of
[20:24:20] George S. [Disaster Area]: ORAS Ubers with a handful of bans
[20:24:23] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's way more balanced than
[20:24:24] George S. [Disaster Area]: current OU
[20:24:26] George S. [Disaster Area]: xd
[20:24:35] David: i disagree
[20:24:39] George S. [Disaster Area]: mew dropped from ubers
[20:24:46] George S. [Disaster Area]: why can't mewtwo if there's enough checks and balances to it?
[20:25:01] George S. [Disaster Area]: such as mega sableye and arceus-ghost
[20:25:07] George S. [Disaster Area]: and yveltal and genesect
[20:25:09] David: lol...
[20:25:11] George S. [Disaster Area]: etc
[20:25:13] David: no comments
[20:25:57] David: you are saying
[20:25:59] David: arceus OU
[20:26:08] George S. [Disaster Area]: yes
[20:26:14] David: we stopped arguing
[20:26:18] George S. [Disaster Area]: each  of its sets has
[20:26:25] George S. [Disaster Area]: answers that are pretty damn good in their own right
[20:26:26] George S. [Disaster Area]: lol
[20:29:00] David: understand me if i cannot take you seriously anymore after suggesting mewtwo and arceus OU
[20:29:10] George S. [Disaster Area]: well they are balanced
[20:29:13] George S. [Disaster Area]: lol
[20:29:31] George S. [Disaster Area]: broken checks broken if there's like 50 different pieces of similarly powered broken
[20:29:35] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's just another tier of mons
[20:29:37] George S. [Disaster Area]: in the same way
[20:29:39] David: well i remember you discussing mewtwo being more balanced than rby ou once
[20:29:39] George S. [Disaster Area]: OU mons look
[20:29:42] George S. [Disaster Area]: fucking insane in NU
[20:29:42] David: why am i surprised
[20:31:51] George S. [Disaster Area]: consider having mewtwo and mew being banned in rby ou as being the same as only banning mega ray, primals, mega mence, and a couple of other things
[20:31:59] George S. [Disaster Area]: that's basically what I'm suggesting

[20:52] ~KristophV: [04:10] +Fireburn: there is no real way to implement this in an orderly fashion in the middle of a gen
[20:52] ~KristophV: [04:10] Disaster Area: but it's only in the middle of a gen that we'd realise it nessecary
[20:52] ~KristophV: [04:10] Disaster Area: catch-22
[20:52] ~KristophV: that's the story of smogon tiering policy