Mabus blocking conversations

Joel
i'm not sure they give the peace prize for letting iran get away with almost destroying a saudi oil complex.. the coward prize, maybe
Joel
we're locked and loaded! oh wait the news stopped talking about it, whew, let's back off
Joel
i'm not a fan of the saudis nor our policy toward iran
Joel
but some things cross lines
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Joel
the iranians need to understand that acts of war are not the appropriate response to whatever gripes they have.. i held my tongue until that point, i hate our iran policy, but that attack is a serious matter and a blatant provocation
innit
What?
innit
Zero people died.
innit
There's no evidence Iran did anything.
karstensrage
Joel, thats what i hate about war
innit
The US has supplied weapons to Saudi Arabia they've used to genocide tens of thousands of people.
innit
Your perspective is way off, Joel.
innit
This US government is the sharpie government.
innit
You can't trust anything it says.
innit
Multiple nations say "no evidence of Iran's involvement".
innit
Saudia Arabia has not accused Iran.
innit
You're spreading Trump propaganda.
Joel
trump is not the one making these observations
Joel
and yet he hasn't launched a retaliation at all yet?
innit
Joel: Why do you believe Iran was involved in any way whatsoever?
Joel
innit the evidence indicates it did not come from yemen as the rebels there claimed falsely
innit
What evidence?
innit
Nothing from the US government is valid.
Joel
if that's the case then we're more fucked than we can even imagine
innit
All American media reports cited the American government, so they're invalid.
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innit
All foreign governments, 100% of them, have said "no evidence of Iran's involvement".
innit
Joel: The POTUS sharpied on a weather map to save his ego.
Joel
well who was it then, kuwait? UAE? of course it was iran
innit
I cannot believe you still trust your government.
innit
What will it take, man?
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innit
Joel: It's not fully known, but the evidence at this time is Yemen fighters in response to the genocide done by Saudi Arabia.
innit
Joel, do you appreciate the attack is valid and self-defense?
innit
It doesn't seem you appreciate that.
Joel
they had missile defense systems in place for an attack from yemen
innit
The famine in Yemen is the worst on Earth since the Holocaust days.
innit
Do you appreciate that?
innit
Zero people were killed in the attack.
innit
You're telling me a people can't attack critical infrastructure of the nation committing genocide against them?
innit
C'mon, man.
Joel
it wasn't from yemen based on the evidence
innit
What evidence?
Joel
the houthis are allied with iran and would have a motive to claim responsibility falsely
innit
Nothing from the US government is valid.
innit
You've cited zero evidence, man.
innit
Multiple US allies and SAUDI ARABIA ITSELF has not said Iran did it.
innit
What will it take.
Joel
you're making the evidence invalid arbitrarily
innit
'arbitrarily"
Joel
saudis did indicate it last i heard
innit
That is a lie.
innit
Why are you lying about me, Joel?
innit
I told you my reason.
innit
About four minutes ago.
Joel
07:10:52pm <+innit> Nothing from the US government is valid. <-- that's a major assertion
innit
That is my assertion.
innit
Why did I make that assertion?
innit
The POTUS sharpied on a legal document -- a federal weather map -- to save his ego in a nothing situation.
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innit
Members of his administration then threatened to fire people in the NWS and NOAA if they contradicted his lie.
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innit
And you're telling me we can trust this administration on Iran.
innit
C'mon.
innit
They unilaterally pulled out of the treaty that ALL OUR ALLIES STAYED IN.
Joel
the military has independence from the admin
innit
No, it doesn't.
innit
It has shown some independence, and a lot of corruption, too.
innit
Joel: Nothing in this administration is valid on Iran, forever, while Trump is in office.
innit
It's unfortunate.
innit
That's the price of lying.
innit
It's why our leaders shouldn't lie.
innit
It's like if you're a Catholic church and your priests start buttfucking kids.
innit
You have to lose something.
innit
You lose authority for decades.
innit
The US lost all authority for years.
innit
It's unfortunate. Truth matters.
Joel
look, i don't even blame iran for having the motive to do it.. but we can't tolerate it nonetheless
innit
There's no evidence did anything.
innit
I reject your premise.
innit
Joel: If Iran supplying weapons in a single attack that killed zero people is a serious provocation, what does it mean that we've given hundreds of billions of dollars over years to support SA doing genocide against Yemen?
innit
It would seem it should result in the execution of all our senior leadership.
innit
Multiple presidents, all their senior leaders, senior leaders of Congress, etc.
innit
Do you support that?
innit
Are you ready to kill 500 members of the US government
innit
I'm quite open to it.
innit
They do deserve to die.
innit
I couldn't support any killing over the attack on the oil facility, though.
innit
That's self-defense.
innit
When you're open to killing Obama, Trump, about 40 cabinet secretaries, and about 15 members of of the GOP and Democratic leadership in Congress, I will consider your arguments to have moral authority.
innit
Until then, you're carrying water for the fascist liar Donald Trump.
innit
And I hope that you stop doing that.
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innit
If you think killing 500 members of the American government is worse than 500 civilians in Syria or Afghanistan, then you probably don't really care about human rights.
innit
And until our culture broadly sees those as similar, right, powerful people will keep killing weak, poor people in far off lands for defense contractor companies that have destroyed our republic.
innit
rich, powerful*
innit
Obama knowingly killed thousands of innocent people because some notions of American lawfare made his brain think it was okay
innit
And it would be ethical for a family member of those people to kill him in response
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Joel
innit i don't like the saudi regime nor our hypocritical policies in the middle east in general.. but it seems undeniable that this attack was launched from iran, and their ally falsely claimed responsibility.. if i were trump or obama i wouldn't have a choice but to react, it should be measured, not all out war, but you can't allow them to do anything they want.. they are not a regime that
Joel
respects their own citizens, i think we are too harsh on iran, but at the same time they aren't any better than the saudis and we shouldn't tolerate them attacking the saudis and disrupting business throughout the world, they have a right to feel abused but they also bear some responsibility in that, because they don't really have scruples themselves.. ultimately we are weak if we can't
Joel
conduct a measured response to this attack, something has to give here, we can't allow that to be a constant fear of the saudis or anyone else in the region
innit
Joel: You have supplied zero evidence.
innit
I deny it until evidence is provided.
Joel
i referenced the evidence
innit
You always have a choice.
innit
Joel: What is the correct response to an attack that killed zero people?
innit
Presumably zero deaths in response, yes?
innit
Joel: I'm not sure you understand that, so let me really zero in on this.
innit
Are you aware the attack on the oil refineries killed ZERO PEOPLE?
innit
All that was done was property damage.
Joel
i don't care
innit
You don't care.
Joel
it cannot be tolerated
innit
So you're ready to kill Iranians in a "measured, not all out war" for zero deaths.
Mabus has set topic: Nancy Pelosi announces beggining of official Impeachment Inquiry | Trump announces he will finally release the whistleblowers complaint and the inspector generals report on it, the withholding of was illegal
innit
That would seem to make you a murderous monster.
Joel
we wouldn't intentionally kill anyone in iran
innit
Any counter arguments?
innit
Joel: Your level of propaganda on issues of American geopolitical interests is astoundingly high for a leftist in 2019.
innit
I could understand it if it was 2003.
innit
Joel: Tell me where you disagree:
innit
1. Saudi Arabia initiated an illegal war with Yemen
innit
2. In this illegal war, Saudi Arabia has killed tens of thousands of civilians in Yemen
innit
3. The world's largest famine is now occurring in Yemen, larger than anything since WW2, with an estimated 14 million to die
innit
4. Saudi Arabia, in its illegal war, is violating international law on warfighting, repeatedly, by blocking aid, food, international observers, and targeting schools, hospitals, etc.
innit
5. In response to this barbarity, some Yemen fighters attacked oil refineries in Saudi Arabia, killing zero people
Joel
that's where i disagree, 5
innit
6. Only the United States AND NO OTHER COUNTRIES ON EARTH have claimed Iran participated in this attack
Joel
i also disagree on 6
innit
What do you disagree with
innit
Joel: Which countries besides the US have claimed Iran participated in the attack?
Joel
the saudis and ourselves worked together to determine it was iran
innit
Okay, looks like there have been updates today.
innit
Looks like multiple European countries now allege they were involved.
innit
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/france-germany-britain-leaders-iran-saudi-oil-attack-190923201421030.html
innit
That's from 8 hours ago.
innit
I will believe Germany.
innit
I do not believe the UK too much.
innit
Boris Johnson is not a credible leader of the UK.
innit
Let me update 5
innit
5. For the duration of the Saudi Arabian genocide against Yemen, the US has supplied hundreds of billions in weapons, including F-16 fighters and enormous amounts of munitions that have been dropped on Yemen civilians turning them into dog meat
innit
6. Several weeks ago, Yemen fighters, with the aid of Iran, attacked an oil refinery in Saudi Arabia, killing zero people, and causing billions in losses
innit
My position: Given (5), there is nothing the US can do against Iran for (6).
innit
As (5) is the same crime, but 1000-10000 times worse.
innit
If you support punishing the US 1000-10000 more for (5) than you do for Iran for (6), then I will support punishment for (6)
innit
Since no people were killed in (6), I would support sanctions against Iran and other financial punishments up to the dollar value of the lost oil revenue
innit
This is contingent on punishing the US 1000-10000 more
innit
Any disagreements?
innit
It would be wildly unethical and illegal for the US to do any military response to Iran for (6)
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Joel
there's a fundamental problem with that though.. we can't involve ourselves in every dispute in the middle east.. our interests there are more specific, and i don't disagree that we're self-serving hypocrites, but like other countries we are dependent on the saudis and other states in the region, we would be messing up our own shit to stand up to everything we don't like there.. it's not an
Joel
ideal world, we can't force the saudis or israelis or anyone at all to do what would be just and right, no matter how much we on the left idealize that that would be nice
Joel
ProfFarnsworth i didn't say we were dependent on israel, but even as their staunch ally we obviously can't make them do anything, they never give two shits
Joel
maybe not
innit
The United States is an oil exporter.
innit
In total energy consumption, the US was between 86% and 91% self-sufficient in 2016.[1] In May 2011, the country became a net exporter of refined petroleum products.[2] As of 2014, the United States was the world's third-largest producer of crude oil, after Saudi Arabia and Russia,[3] and second-largest exporter of refined products, after Russia.[4]
innit
We are a crude oil importer, it looks like.
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innit
19% from the entire ME
innit
Joel: There has to be accountability, otherwise we're just a bully, and that's not long-term stable
innit
If we're a bully, which we currently are, other nations will begin to do diplomacy around us, which they are
innit
This will lead to long-term loss of American ability to advocate for its perspective
innit
But, more fundamental than this, we need to follow certain principles relating to human rights
innit
Because it's morally necessary
innit
I think your realpolitik analysis was pretty craven and short-sighted
innit
The deference we're showing to autocracies in the Middle East will end up hurting American citizens very deeply
innit
It's only helping the transnational crime syndicate that has captured our government and which works with foreign autocracies
innit
None of this is in the interests of the typical American
innit
Saudi Arabia killed an American resident after they criticized the House of Saud and Donald Trump
innit
Saudi Arabia has used signals intelligence against Jeff Bezos, as he's been a prominent critic of the traitor Trump
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innit
They'll employ these foreign governments against any American citizen who becomes sufficiently powerful to dislodge that transnational crime syndicate, as it serves their interest to keep it
innit
This means we've lost autonomy and self-determination
innit
All for some oil?
innit
That's a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible deal
innit
Oil is a decreasing industry. We need to use these situations to *break* with Muslim autocracies in the ME and work towards sustainable energy technologies
innit
Not to engage ourselves in more wars that will have us waste trillions so defense contractors can get rich and young boys die for rich men
innit
We are enabling and empower these autocracies. A story broke yesterday that Egypt wanted to imprison a New York Times reporter and the Trump administration gave the go ahead
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Mabus has kicked innit (Mabus)
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innit has joined ([email protected])
Topic: Nancy Pelosi announces beggining of official Impeachment Inquiry | Trump announces he will finally release the whistleblowers complaint and the inspector generals report on it, the withholding of was illegal
Mabus set the topic at: Sep 24, 2019 at 4:27 PM
DALnet
This channel is protected, you may need to wait 40 seconds before being able to talk!
Mode: +tn
Created at: Mar 10, 2005 at 7:52 AM
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innit
Mabus: Why did you kick me
Mabus
he has every right to place me on ignore
Mabus
but if he misses ops warnings thats not my problem
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Mabus
you can give it a try if you like
Mabus
heya 4x
innit
I don't recall seeing a single valid operator warning in the last few years
innit
Mabus, what happened
Mabus
innit.... can you see this?
innit
Yes
Mabus
there we go
Mabus
stop talking to yourself
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innit
I'm wondering why a debate got derailed in debates
Mabus
you are posting a wall of text that no one is replying to
innit
I am posting a series of posts
Mabus
its not a debate if you are the only one talking
innit
It had been 9 minutes since Joel responded
Mabus
yes
Mabus
take a hint
innit
Sometimes, people leave and return
innit
Mabus: If you dislike my chat, you have the right to ignore me
innit
Then you won't see it
Mabus
either way... you are not entitled to a monologue
innit
I was finishing a point
innit
Smart people sometimes have lengthy points
Mabus
its finished
innit
Mabus: I put you on ignore for two weeks for your authoritarianism
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innit
Finishing my thought: The New York Times had to reach out to Ireland to advocate for the freedom of their journalist. Threats against journalists like that, Joel, are resulting from us being a corrupt state in service to autocracies in the Middle East, which ultimately harms your ability to stay informed as an American citizen, as well as hold your politicians accountable.
Joel
innit i don't support the saudi regime.. but there are actions that have consequences, the attack on the oil complex in saudi arabia did come from iran and it is an act of war.. we shouldn't overreact, but nor should we allow them to think that it's the right way to challenge what they disagree with.. tolerating it invites terroristic attacks at any time
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Fundamenta|ist begins to eyeball Mabus really close to estimate his worth
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17:23 ChanServ has changed mode: +o deusexc
innit
Woah, that's weird.
innit
Joel stepped away, as people often do, and then return to continue the conversation, as people often do.
innit
This clearly demonstrates how absurd Mabus' assertion was