Troller - Today at 20:13
however i can spoiler you this
one day you are gonna log on pp
and there will be a thread to ban wrap completely from rby
Disaster Area - Today at 20:13
yea,
tbh im surprised it has not happened yet
Troller - Today at 20:13
broken nah, but it's unhealty
Disaster Area - Today at 20:14
we've suspected chansey but not wrap :joy:
Troller - Today at 20:14
it's on the level of ohko moves
"run gengar counter play for horn drill"
Disaster Area - Today at 20:14
honestly in rby im less certain that ohko moves are banworthy than in other gens
but ive not played with them
but ok my grand total of experience with wrap has been
in rby 1u its not that powerful and whilst it can work it's not reliable enough
Troller - Today at 20:15
it's not broken
Disaster Area - Today at 20:15
in old rby 2u, tentacruel was underrated and solid but it has its flaws for sure too. it wasnt a big problem there or that common even tho tenta was a rank
3u and 4u have basically not really got any partial trapping
5u however
Troller - Today at 20:15
but if we got the freeze clause to "rise competitiveness" i don't see how wrap should stay
Disaster Area - Today at 20:15
the big 4 there is
dragonair, gastly
and seadra and drowzee
so u would have wrap on every team
not always with agility, sometimes it runs twave or something instead
and u would have to play against it most matches
honestly as the meta has evolved, dragonair seems to be getting less and less effective, as has agiliwrap
it has kinda centralised the meta a bit but it's not the only force doing that
now
u talk about
wrap being unhealthy
5u is my favourite metagame precisely because
of the dynamics wrap can create
u quite often get these longer, strategic games, with lots of use of wrap and rest
where u have a lot of time to plan strategy and execute and
it's honestly
the most strategic and interesting rby metagame i have played
up there with rby ou/1u
and it's entirely because of wrap
Troller - Today at 20:18
i judge what i know, i'm about rby ou only, but you don't like complex ban
Disaster Area - Today at 20:18
without wrap it would not be anywhere near as interesting
at the same time that metagame is definitely an acquired taste
some people love it some people hate it
most people who play it aren't in between i think
u can talk with peasounay about it too, he really likes 5u and can talk about how wrap makes it tick
if u ask him
there was a point in the testing where we both actually went
from hating it to like
just suddenly loving it and understanding the metagame
kind of a strange experience tbh
Troller - Today at 20:19
one day i will test myself in
Disaster Area - Today at 20:20
but yea no i would not only argue that wrap on the whole is not unhealthy, but that in the right circumstances it can actually make for an even more interesting, healthy, deep metagame than if it wasn't around
that's just my opinion ofc and i know that there are probably a fair amount of people around
who would like to ban wrap
but i do personally very strongly disagree with that stance for the reasons i've stated
Troller - Today at 20:21
for now i can tell you, it can be unreliable as hell, but the fact that anytime  dragonite cann come in on tauros and 30-70 setup his +2 speed, then you can all dodge or dodge is too sick, the best would be agility+wrap ban
then wraps turns the way you say onn ou too
Disaster Area - Today at 20:21
agiliwrap is a part of 5u...
Troller - Today at 20:21
you got a slow wrapper and have to work on paralizing
no on 5u
Disaster Area - Today at 20:22
so im not sure exactly but im trying to picture like
what is the argument then really that
wrap or agiliwrap is unhealthy
especially given that it's not that effective/strong or otherwise it would see higher than the practically trivial usage it sees
and dragonite would be considered 1u
like i get there are reasons why
people use it less, especially top players, because of its unreliability and so on
Troller - Today at 20:23
i have the feel
Disaster Area - Today at 20:23
but, so, given that stuff, im interested in how u make a case that it's unhealthy
Troller - Today at 20:23
that dragonite has low usage not only because of his flaws
Disaster Area - Today at 20:23
there is a stigma against using dnite in 1u yes
Troller - Today at 20:23
but also because many, me too don't like usinng it
vic is funny
Disaster Area - Today at 20:24
and yea some people just dont prefer it of course
so like what do u feel makes it unhealthy
like it is a case that when it's used
in 1u
that it makes for really uninteresting games sometimes
where there's no depth it's just waiting for a miss
Troller - Today at 20:25
that happens because of agility yes
when a player wants to win so much
Disaster Area - Today at 20:26
alright so, in 5u agiliwrap is a thing too and u see it far more often than in 1u, but for whatever reason
when u play against it even if sometimes u are waiting for a miss
on the whole it just doesn't feel the same and it's not uninteresting
Troller - Today at 20:26
can sacrificace the skill required into "let's setup dragonite on body slam and spam wrap"(edited)
Disaster Area - Today at 20:27
so it kinda levels the playing field a bit much between better and worse players?
like in a way other pokemon dont do
Troller - Today at 20:27
i'm not even saying wrap's unbeatable, it fails and got bad usage
but when a player do, the games ruined
you just watch the miss or hit
in 5u might be strategic
in ou not really
Disaster Area - Today at 20:28
i see what ur saying
hmm
Troller - Today at 20:28
dragonite's the pokemon that comes out and pray
we seek competitiveness
wrap vic can be competitive
it's interesting and strategic
how do you spread para
when you reveal
maybe setup
Disaster Area - Today at 20:29
i wonder if we could do something where
Troller - Today at 20:29
dnites just ignorant
Disaster Area - Today at 20:29
like we make a special rule
for some tournaments or something
like say in master tours or team tours or whatever
of not bringing agiliwrap
in 1u
im super against still removing agiliwrap from the tiering system entirely
but i also acknowledge that agiwrap dnite is like something that if we could remove a lot of players would
in 1u
Troller - Today at 20:31
if you mean all tiers, my answer is idk, i tell of rby ou only rn
0 idea what happens there
Disaster Area - Today at 20:31
yea i know ur talking only of rby ou
im just wondering if there's like a soft way we could ban it just in certain tournaments or something
Troller - Today at 20:31
in ou it sucks, and lower tiers shouldn't get punished for somethig happening elsehwhere
that's how complex bans borned
Disaster Area - Today at 20:32
hm i hear u
i'll think about it some more
what i would like to maybe do is
get more opinions
Troller - Today at 20:32
someone proposed wrap ban on 100+speed mons, maybe you
Disaster Area - Today at 20:33
and see how many people would be fine if agiliwrap dnite couldn't be used in some rby tournaments on pp
Troller - Today at 20:33
why don't you do that with wrap+x hp? dragonite's the wrapper with most of them
you can target him only in many ways
Disaster Area - Today at 20:33
i am not willing to ban or even complex ban agiwrap in the pp tier structure but
I think if enough players want it
we should consider doing like
a ban of it from the metagame in tournaments only
it's like enforcing a gentleman's agreement
u see what i mean?
Troller - Today at 20:34
yes
Disaster Area - Today at 20:34
I'll bring it up w/ others, see what they think