15:19 You invited Rhetorical to join #BookRead
15:19 •Ops Elara invited Rhetorical into the channel.
15:19 → Rhetorical joined (uid75809@dlp-7E194192.tooting.irccloud.com)
15:19 You invited Luminifera to join #BookRead
15:19 •Ops Elara invited Luminifera into the channel.
15:19 <•Elara> because PMing both of you separately is annoying
15:20 <Rhetorical> :P
15:20 <Rhetorical> Op me and I'll register the channel
15:20 <•Elara> how do I do that?
15:20 <Rhetorical>  /op Rhetorical
15:20 <•Elara> ah, simples, ok
15:20 •Rhetorical was opped (+o) by •Elara
15:21 Channel mode set to +ntr by ChanServ
15:21 → Luminifera joined  •  mode: •Rhetorical (promoted to owner)



15:21 <•Rhetorical> Ayy
15:21 <Luminifera> "owner"
15:22 — •Rhetorical op Luminifera
15:22 <•Rhetorical> er
15:22 •Luminifera was opped (+o) by •Rhetorical
15:22 <•Elara> Rhet has taken ownership of my chan :(
15:22 <•Luminifera> it was yours???
15:22 •Rhetorical was demoted from owner (-q) by ChanServ
15:22 <•Rhetorical> There we go
15:22 — •Luminifera snorts
15:22 <•Elara> I decided a chan would be easier than separate PMs
15:22 <•Luminifera> it would!
15:23 <•Rhetorical> Indeed
15:23 <•Luminifera> I was gonna make one but I got distracted by the chat xD
15:24 Channel mode set to +m by •Rhetorical
15:25 •Rhetorical set the topic: We read book
15:25 Luminifera → •Lumipirate




Load more backlog…
15:26 Channel mode set to -m by •Rhetorical
15:26 Channel mode set to +s by •Rhetorical
15:27 Channel mode set to +p-s by •Rhetorical
15:27 <•Rhetorical> Hmm
15:27 <•Lumipirate> we read book
15:27 <•Lumipirate> hahahahahahahaha
15:28 Channel mode set to +s-p by •Rhetorical
15:28 <•Rhetorical> There
15:29 <•Lumipirate> sp
15:29 <•Lumipirate> are your carbons making two double bonds?
15:29 → •Rhllogs (promoted to owner, opped) joined




15:29 <•Lumipirate> or maybe a triple bond.
15:29 <•Rhetorical> wat
15:29 <•Lumipirate> rhllogs is the owner?
15:29 •Rhllogs was demoted from owner (-q) by ChanServ
15:29 <•Lumipirate> just because he's the Lord of light?
15:30 — •Rhllogs waves
15:32 <•Elara> y'know, I suggested it, but I've realised I'm not 100% on having a god sit in on reading another god's book
15:32 <•Elara> might give him ideas
15:36 <•Rhllogs> True
15:36 <•Rhllogs> Could be dangerous
15:36 <•Rhllogs> I might start getting ideas
15:37 — •Rhllogs sets the world on fire
15:38 <•Elara> I've done a bit of digging, and I suggest KJV/Authorised Version, complemented by NET (New English Translation)
15:38 <•Elara> and anything extra Rhet wants to drag in
15:38 <•Rhllogs> I'm not familiar with the NET
15:39 <•Rhllogs> Well, depending on how in depth we want to get
15:39 <•Rhllogs> I have interlinier old and new testaments
15:39 <•Rhllogs> as well as Greek and Hebrew dictionaries
15:40 <•Rhetorical> interlinear, even
15:40 <•Rhllogs> Yes, that
15:41 <•Elara> are you arguing with yourself Rhet?
15:41 <•Rhetorical> No
15:41 <•Rhllogs> Yes
15:41 <•Rhllogs> He's tired, you'll have to forgive him
15:41 <•Rhetorical> :\
15:43 <•Elara> XD
15:43 <•Rhllogs> :\
15:51 <•Elara> <3 you Rhet
15:51 <•Rhetorical> <3
15:52 <•Rhllogs> <3
15:52 — •Rhllogs pokes Lumipirate
15:53 <•Rhetorical> I forgot to test my program on the uni server
15:53 <•Rhetorical> Hopefully it crashes in the same place
15:55 <•Rhetorical> Darn
15:55 <•Rhetorical> It didn't crash
15:59 <•Rhetorical> Yay submitted
16:00 — •Rhetorical pokes Elara
16:00 <•Rhetorical> You should register your nick
16:00 <•Elara> mmm, how do?
16:00 <•Rhetorical> Um
16:00 <•Rhetorical> one sec
16:01 <•Rhetorical>  /ns register [your desired password] [optionally, your email for password resets]
16:01 <•Rhetorical> no spaces in password allowed
16:02 <•Elara> okies, done
16:03 <•Rhetorical> \o/
16:03 <•Rhetorical> I think that'll make sure your op status is saved across logins
16:03 Rhetorical → •Rhet|class
16:03 <•Rhet|class> you can also group nicks
16:03 <•Rhet|class> So you don't have to reidentify when switching back in forth, if that's your thing
16:04 <•Elara> eh, mostly just sticking with Elara now I'm on irccloud tbh
16:04 <•Rhet|class> Fair
16:06 <•Elara> everyone pretty much knows I'm at work now :P
16:07 <•Rhet|class> Heh
16:10 <•Rhet|class> Well
16:10 <•Rhet|class> Guess who I just ran into
16:10 <•Elara> hmmm. Clare?
16:11 <•Rhet|class> Yes
16:11 <•Rhet|class> I apologized
16:11 <•Elara> ok
16:11 <•Elara> how did that go?
16:11 <•Rhet|class> She apologized as well
16:12 <•Rhet|class> And said we're good
16:12 <•Rhet|class> :|
16:12 <•Rhet|class> That was easy
16:13 <•Elara> sounds quite easy, aye
16:17 <•Rhet|class> :|
16:19 <•Elara> well done Rhet
16:19 <•Elara> now maybe you can get over it
16:20 <•Rhet|class> Yeah...
16:21 <•Elara> anyways, I'm heading off
16:21 <•Rhet|class> o/
16:21 <•Rhet|class> Farewell
16:21 <•Elara> likely to be on and off as train reception is shit
16:21 <•Elara> o/
16:21 <•Rhet|class> Yeah
17:27 Rhet|class → •Rhetorical, Lumipirate → •Luminifera



17:31 <•Luminifera> jesussss
17:31 <•Luminifera> I'm so hot
17:31 <•Luminifera> I can't deal
17:31 <•Rhetorical> Lumi
17:31 <•Rhetorical> I ran into Clare
17:36 <•Luminifera> I know!!!! :D
17:36 <•Luminifera> well this bus is quite empty
17:36 <•Luminifera> nice.
17:44 → Olivebirdy joined (598ba29d@dlp-5E431FE5.mibbit.com)
17:44 <Olivebirdy> Oiiii
17:45 <•Rhetorical> wat
17:45 <•Luminifera> :D
17:45 <•Luminifera> now it's even better
17:45 <•Luminifera> a christian, an ex-christian, an atheist, AND a jew.
17:45 — •Rhetorical was not consulted on this
17:45 <•Luminifera> this is gonna be the best bible club ever
17:46 <•Rhetorical> ikr
17:46 — •Luminifera uses a time machine to have consulted rhetorical in the past
17:46 — •Rhetorical had said yes
17:47 <•Luminifera> :D
17:47 <Olivebirdy> So, what are we starting from?
17:47 <•Luminifera> genesis?
17:47 <•Rhetorical> ^
17:47 <•Rhetorical> In the beginning
17:47 <Olivebirdy> Yeah, okay.
17:47 <•Luminifera> in the beginning, there was jess
17:47 <•Rhetorical> God created the heavens and the earth
17:47 <•Rhetorical> And the earth was without form
17:47 <•Rhetorical> And void
17:47 <•Luminifera> then she took a random vial and everything went to hell
17:48 <•Rhetorical> And darkness was on the face of the deep
17:48 <•Luminifera> I digress. the sun is much older than the earth.
17:48 <•Rhetorical> Digress means to talk off topic
17:49 <•Rhetorical> You disagree
17:49 <•Rhetorical> :P
17:49 <•Rhetorical> We can have English lessons, too
17:49 <Olivebirdy> Without form and void is a bit...
17:49 <Olivebirdy> Tohu and bohu.
17:49 <•Rhetorical> Yes
17:50 <Olivebirdy> Some translate it as 'chaos'.
17:50 <•Rhetorical> Worm parallelism
17:50 <•Rhetorical> Perfect
17:50 <•Rhetorical> Best Bible study ever
17:50 <•Luminifera> fuck. I'm horrible
17:50 — •Rhetorical hugs Lumi
17:50 <•Luminifera> thanks
17:50 <Olivebirdy> Feeling or fact? :p
17:50 <•Luminifera> a feeling of factful horribleness
17:51 <•Luminifera> why is olive not a mod
17:51 <•Rhetorical> We can also offer therapy
17:51 <•Rhetorical> Multipurpose group
17:51 <•Luminifera> best group evah
17:51 •Olivebirdy was opped (+o) by •Rhetorical
17:52 <•Luminifera> I wonder if the bus is gonna take forever to come
17:52 <•Rhetorical> That's what she said?
17:52 <•Rhetorical> Nah
17:52 <•Olivebirdy> Nah.
17:52 <•Rhetorical> Close, though
17:52 <•Olivebirdy> Not unless she's really bored.
17:53 <•Luminifera> who?
17:53 <•Rhetorical> She
17:54 <•Luminifera> Her?
17:54 <•Olivebirdy> The hypothetical woman having sex.
17:54 <•Luminifera> wasn't it Taylor?
17:54 <•Rhetorical> Is a joke
17:54 <•Luminifera> now I'm confused
17:54 <•Rhetorical> If someone says something that could be something she might have said during sex
17:55 <•Rhetorical> One says, "That's what she said"
17:55 <•Rhetorical> To draw attention to the double meaning
17:55 <•Olivebirdy> Man, this is hard.
17:55 <•Rhetorical> That's what she said
17:55 <•Rhetorical> See?
17:55 <•Olivebirdy> Move over, I'm getting squished.
17:56 <•Rhetorical> Eh
17:56 <•Rhetorical> That might have been what she said
17:56 <•Olivebirdy> Eh.
17:56 <•Luminifera> why would anyone say
17:56 <•Luminifera> 1:51 PM <•Luminifera> I wonder if the bus is gonna take forever to come
17:56 <•Luminifera> during sex
17:56 <•Rhetorical> She wouldn't
17:56 <•Rhetorical> That's why it didn't work
17:56 <•Luminifera> :|
17:56 <•Luminifera> I'm laughing at this
17:57 <•Luminifera> I'm so hungry
17:57 <•Rhetorical> That's what...
17:57 <•Rhetorical> Never mind
17:57 <•Olivebirdy> That's what she said.
17:58 <•Luminifera> yes that's what I just said :/
17:58 <•Rhetorical> :\
17:59 <•Luminifera> yay the bus
17:59 <•Olivebirdy> Post tge video, Rhet.
17:59 <•Luminifera> what video
17:59 <•Rhetorical> tge video?
17:59 <•Rhetorical> What video?
18:00 <•Luminifera> I sense a joke
18:01 <•Luminifera> but I can't put my finger on what exactly it is about
18:01 <•Olivebirdy> https://youtu.be/aIWrFNDKQ6o
18:01 ⇐ •Olivebirdy quit (598ba29d@dlp-5E431FE5.mibbit.com) Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client
18:01 <•Luminifera> can't see right now.
18:01 <•Luminifera> oh olive, why you do that
18:02 <•Rhetorical> It's a clip from the TV show The Office
18:02 <•Rhetorical> Explaining the That's what she said joke
18:02 <•Rhetorical> But it's blocked
18:02 <•Rhetorical> Which is racist
18:03 <•Rhetorical> It's so hot
18:03 <•Luminifera> ohhh
18:03 <•Luminifera> it is.
18:04 <•Luminifera> :/
18:04 <•Luminifera> well not really.
18:04 <•Luminifera> it's gonna rain soon.
18:04 <•Luminifera> so it's getting chillier
18:04 <•Luminifera> still kinda hot though
18:04 <•Rhetorical> Is hot here
18:04 <•Rhetorical> 32 celsiuses
18:05 <•Luminifera> !!!!
18:05 <•Luminifera> that's a lot of celsiuses
18:05 <•Rhetorical> It is
18:05 <•Luminifera> right now, it's probably... 20 something
18:05 <•Luminifera> 25? idk
18:05 <•Rhetorical> Sounds wonderful
18:06 <•Luminifera> it's quite nice right now yeah
18:06 <•Luminifera> the wind
18:06 <•Luminifera> '^
18:06 <•Luminifera> ^-^ *
18:13 → Olivebirdy joined (b920b3b7@dlp-66E2EF72.mibbit.com)
18:13 <Olivebirdy> Yo.
18:14 <•Rhetorical> o/
18:14 <Olivebirdy> So, one thing people have a tendency to get wrong.
18:14 <•Rhetorical> Y u no register your nick?
18:15 <•Luminifera> tell us olive
18:19 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit (b920b3b7@dlp-66E2EF72.mibbit.com) Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client
18:23 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


22:15 → Elara joined  •  Channel mode: +sntr



22:19 <Elara> o/
22:19 <Olivebirdy> o>
22:19 <Olivebirdy> o/
22:19 <Olivebirdy> o>
22:19 <Olivebirdy> o/
22:26 <Elara> Oh, you joined
22:27 <Olivebirdy> Lumi invited me.
22:27 <Olivebirdy> And I know Hebrew, so there's that.
22:27 <Elara> Always helpful
22:28 <Olivebirdy> Mm. Want to know something useful?
22:28 <Elara> Also Christians can be a bit weird about the old testament
22:28 <Olivebirdy> How so?
22:29 <Elara> Tell me your useful thing
22:29 <Elara> Then I'll explain
22:29 <Olivebirdy> Okay, so, the definition for 'day' is 'sun up, sun down, sun up again'
22:29 <Olivebirdy> Yeah?
22:30 <Elara> Right?
22:30 <Olivebirdy> And silly people say that the world was created in six days?
22:30 <Elara> Yeah
22:30 <Olivebirdy> So, when reading, see if you notice a problem with using that definition.
22:31 <Olivebirdy> Unless you want me to spoiler you.
22:31 <Elara> Something something genesis 1
22:31 <Olivebirdy> Yep.
22:32 <Olivebirdy> See, sun was only created on the fourth day.
22:32 <Olivebirdy> So there's a slight problem with 1-3
22:32 <Olivebirdy> No sun.
22:33 <Olivebirdy> So, apparently the writer was not considering 'Yom' to be a 'day'.
22:33 <Olivebirdy> Probably something more like 'period'.
22:33 <Elara> But yeah Christians have come up with some pretty strained interpretations of some bits to make it lead to Jesus
22:33 <Olivebirdy> ?
22:34 <Olivebirdy> I'm afraid I don't know those.
22:34 <Elara> Ehehe we'll get there
22:34 <Olivebirdy> :)
22:35 <Olivebirdy> But yeah, that tidbit I shared is useful for many arguments about Genesis.
22:37 <Elara> I'm hoping that with a 'Merican Christian, a Jew, a Catholic educated atheist and me we can have some interesting times
22:38 <Olivebirdy> Yeah, it should be fun.
22:38 <Olivebirdy> You may need to stop me from getting sources, though.
22:38 <Elara> Mmm?
22:39 <Olivebirdy> I'm probably going to go on about halacha, and what Rashi said, and if I get realllllly into it, I might be researching through Talmud as well.
22:39 <Elara> Cool
22:40 <Olivebirdy> There's just so much information most Christians don't get access to.
22:40 <Elara> Should be interesting
22:40 <Elara> Yeah
22:40 <Olivebirdy> That most /priests/ don't look at.
22:40 <Elara> I'll be bringing some Anglican shit, and some stuff from my own reading
22:40 <Olivebirdy> :)
22:41 <Olivebirdy> You might need to explain Christian stuff to me, though.
22:41 <Olivebirdy> I really don't know much.
22:41 <Elara> Yeah np
22:41 <Elara> Once you've got a broad structure, most of it's pretty simple
22:41 <Elara> The remainder is a total headfuck
22:42 <Olivebirdy> Oh?
22:42 <Olivebirdy> How so?
22:43 <Elara> Um
22:44 <Elara> Not entirely sure, it's basically my experience though
22:44 <Olivebirdy> Okay. I don't know what you are talking about, though. You could be talking about the community or about Mark.
22:45 <Olivebirdy> Or history. Or tradition.
22:46 <Elara> Theology or tradition wise
22:47 <Olivebirdy> Ah.
22:47 <Olivebirdy> I know a bit of theology.
22:47 <Elara> Once you understand some of the big theological arguments
22:47 <Elara> If you can place something on that spectrum, it just sort of fits
22:48 <Olivebirdy> I don't know the name for most of the arguments, or who said them.
22:48 <Olivebirdy> But yeah.
22:49 <Olivebirdy> Right, so I tried to look up the definition of 'Yom'.
22:49 <Olivebirdy> It does not seem to be normally used as 'period'.
22:49 <Olivebirdy> So, it's a metaphor.
22:50 <Olivebirdy> Which means, that when reading Genesis, we also have to be on the lookout for metaphor.
22:50 <Olivebirdy> Simple ones, anyway.
22:50 <Elara> Yeah
22:50 <Elara> I'ma crash out inabit
22:51 <Olivebirdy> kay.
22:51 <Olivebirdy> Me too
22:51 <Olivebirdy> Good night, Elara.
22:54 <Elara> Night babe
22:55 <Olivebirdy> ;)
23:30 — •Rhet|class scrolls up
23:30 <•Rhet|class> This is going to be so much fun, I can already tell.
23:32 <Olivebirdy> Hehe, sorry.
23:32 Rhet|class → •Rhetorical
23:33 <•Rhetorical> Context: How often in contemporary Hebrew literature is "yom" used together with "and the evening, and the morning: the third day" to mean a figurative day?
23:35 <Olivebirdy> Never.
23:35 <Olivebirdy> Yom, contemporarily, means day, and that's it.
23:36 <•Rhetorical> Contemporary to the original writing, I mean
23:36 <•Rhetorical> Not today
23:37 <Olivebirdy> Oh. Also never, I think.
23:37 <Olivebirdy> Only in Genesis.
23:38 <•Luminifera> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE GOD OF DEATH??
23:38 <•Luminifera> aw ok
23:38 <•Luminifera> :/
23:38 <Olivebirdy> Hi Ichigo!
23:38 <•Luminifera> lost my chance
23:38 <•Luminifera> 7:36 PM <•Rhetorical> Not today
23:38 <Olivebirdy> Ohhh
23:38 <•Rhetorical> Alone it's used figuratively in phrases like "the day of the Lord," no?
23:39 <•Rhetorical> Referring not to a literal 24-hour day
23:39 <•Rhetorical> But I think we're getting ahead of ourselves :P
23:39 <Olivebirdy> Mm.
23:40 <Olivebirdy> Nooot, really.
23:40 <•Luminifera> I wasn't raised catholic :P
23:40 <•Rhetorical> Now you are, Lumi
23:40 <•Luminifera> I was raised as protestant, more specifically, baptist
23:40 <•Luminifera> get ur fax right elara
23:40 <Olivebirdy> No, 'This is a day for God' literally meant day/
23:40 — •Rhetorical sends Elara a fax
23:40 <•Luminifera>  muh I'm so tired
23:41 <•Rhetorical> Go to bed early?
23:41 <Olivebirdy> Of a week, of a year, but still literally meant day.
23:41 <•Rhetorical> You'll be well rested in the morning
23:41 <•Rhetorical> Hmm
23:50 <•Luminifera> I just woke ul
23:50 <•Luminifera> up*
23:50 <•Rhetorical> 17:40:52 <@Luminifera> muh I'm so tired
23:50 <•Rhetorical> :p
23:51 <•Luminifera> I wake up tired 99% of the time
23:51 <•Luminifera> duh
23:51 <•Rhetorical> Have you tried sleeping earlier?
23:52 <•Luminifera> yes
23:58 <•Luminifera> the only times I don't wake up tired are when I wake up by msyelf
23:58 <•Luminifera> after hours and hours of nice slumber ^-^
01:00 Luminifera → •Luminifera



01:03 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


07:00 → Elara and Luminifera joined  •  Rhet|sleep → •Rhet|sleep  •  Channel mode: +sntr






10:09 <Elara> ayyy Luminifera
10:27 <Luminifera> hello!
12:01 — Elara sighs
12:02 <Elara> I think krahe is kinda like a Russian Ereus
12:04 <Luminifera> hahaha
12:04 <Luminifera> wait he's Russian??
12:04 <Luminifera> and yes he reminds me a lot of erus
12:04 <Luminifera> ereus*
12:05 <Elara> yeah, he's from the Russian Far East, so his timezones are more like panth
12:05 <Luminifera> wow
12:07 <Elara> yeah, Russia is insane
12:13 <Luminifera> hahaha
12:13 <Luminifera> omg he won't shut up about Steven universe
12:13 <Luminifera> it's amazing
12:21 <Elara> tell you what's amazing - this NET
12:21 <Elara> so much depth of notes
12:23 <Luminifera> n e t?
12:23 <Elara> new English translation. apparently v accurate bible translation
12:23 <Elara> https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Genesis+1
12:24 <Luminifera> ah hell yes!
12:24 <Luminifera> elara have you ever read the bible?
12:24 <Elara> many bits
12:24 <Elara> never the whole thing
12:24 <Luminifera> ohhh.
12:25 <Luminifera> what's your favorite part? haha. or what fun parts do you remember?
12:25 <Elara> Revelation is pretty trippy
12:25 <Elara> and some of the stuff about the Judges and Kings of Israel is quite fun if you read it as history
12:26 <Elara> how bout you?
12:31 <Luminifera> hahaha yeah the revelation was my favorite part as well xD
13:51 You invited Olivebirdy to join #BookRead
13:51 → Olivebirdy joined (50f68852@dlp-66E2EF72.mibbit.com)
13:52 <Olivebirdy> Hi.
13:52 <Elara> https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Genesis+1
13:52 <Elara> Apparently good modern translation
13:53 <Olivebirdy> Hi.
13:54 <Luminifera> hello
13:54 <Elara> The boy is still asleep, or should be, but he'll have logs
13:54 <Elara> Want to start?
13:54 <Olivebirdy> I'll check.
13:55 <Luminifera> what boy?
13:55 <Olivebirdy> Sure.
13:55 <Olivebirdy> I can't access the site you sent, but I'll get a Book.
13:56 <Elara> Texas boy Lumi, I'm not pinging him in case it wakes him up or sth
13:56 <Luminifera> ohhh
13:56 <Luminifera> it does not.
13:56 <Luminifera> like
13:57 <Luminifera> pinging doesn't wake him up
13:57 <Luminifera> you can just call him quarter, though
13:57 <Luminifera> quarter boy
13:57 <Elara> Why?
13:57 <Luminifera> it's his name
13:57 <Luminifera> legit
13:58 <Luminifera> irl
13:58 <Elara> Ohhhh
14:01 <Luminifera> yup
14:01 <Luminifera> (corder guy, might as well be quarter boy)
14:01 <Luminifera> 0.25 of a boy
14:01 <Luminifera> 0.5 stepford serial killer
14:01 <Olivebirdy> Why quarter?
14:01 <Luminifera> 0.25 alien ?????
14:01 <Luminifera> say corder out loud olive
14:02 <Luminifera> now say quarter with a southern accent
14:04 <Elara> so, on topic for the mini-chan: my first thought on reading Genesis 1 is that it's one of the famous (inasmuch as any of this shit is famous) bits of leftover polytheistic text in the Bible
14:05 <Olivebirdy> You are going to have to show more than 'let us make a person'
14:06 <Luminifera> oh?
14:07 <Luminifera> do go on elara
14:07 <Elara> Elohim is a plural
14:08 <Olivebirdy> Eh...
14:08 <Elara> "In the beginning the gods created the Earth"
14:08 — Luminifera grabs the popcorn
14:08 <Luminifera> (actually cheetos)
14:08 <Olivebirdy> Again, ehh.
14:08 <Elara> I mean yeah, also things like "Let us make humankind"
14:08 <Luminifera> what's wrong, olive?
14:09 <Elara> it's not conclusive Olive, but to me the clearest interpretation is that this is a remnant of an earlier polytheistic text
14:09 <Olivebirdy> If it were meant to be gods, the 'creating'  would also be plaral.
14:10 <Olivebirdy> It's not supported, Elara.
14:10 <Elara> it's an ancient text that's been through hundreds of cycles of copying and recopying by monotheistic scribes, how much support do you expect there to be?
14:10 <Elara> :P
14:11 <Olivebirdy> Lots.
14:11 <Olivebirdy> Not allowed to change a single letter.
14:11 <Elara> I don't expect to convince you, hell, I'm not 100% convinced myself, but I think this, some of the Asherah stuff, and a few other bits and bobs point to a polytheistic/henotheistic/monotheist progression
14:12 <Olivebirdy> If you do, it'z not  kosher.
14:12 <Olivebirdy> Yes and no.
14:12 <Olivebirdy> The asheira tress were worshipped, but it is not allowed.
14:13 <Elara> anyway, the other thing that struck me was the bit about moving over the waters - it clearly places God in a specific place, as an embodied being,
14:13 <Olivebirdy> I need to skype this, this is hard to type.
14:13 <Luminifera> asheira trees?
14:14 <Luminifera> olive, in jewish tradition, is the six days thing read as a metaphor or actual 6 days of 24 hours each?
14:14 <Elara> "An Asherah pole is a sacred tree or pole that stood near Canaanite religious locations to honor the Ugaritic mother-goddess Asherah, consort of El.[1] The relation of the literary references to an asherah and archaeological finds of Judaean pillar-figurines has engendered a literature of debate.[2]"
14:15 <Elara> note "consort of El", El being one name of God
14:16 <Luminifera> yes
14:16 <Luminifera> so there was a lady God?
14:16 <Luminifera> what happened to her? .-.
14:17 <Elara> her shrines got destroyed, as commanded by Kings/priests/God (depending on your interpretation)
14:17 <Luminifera> I read an interesting piece of fiction a few years ago, an other take on the genesis thing, was very interesting
14:17 <Elara> but we'll get to that bit
14:17 <Luminifera> I'll try to find it when I get home
14:18 <Elara> I don't think Judaism tends to interpret it as 6*24 hours, but Olive will know better than me
14:18 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit (50f68852@dlp-66E2EF72.mibbit.com) Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client
14:18 <Luminifera> olive has shitty internet -_-
14:19 <Elara> also Olive wants to do this on Skype :(
14:29 <Luminifera> :/
14:33 <Luminifera> what's wrong with Skype, elara?
14:34 <Elara> long, not hugely happy story
14:36 <Elara> upshot is tho, I'm not happy to do Skype sessions with you guys at the moment, and I can't guarantee I ever will be
14:42 <Elara> besides which, between talking over each other and not necessarily being on at all the same times, I think text works better than speech
14:56 <Luminifera> awww
14:56 <Luminifera> :( :( :(
14:56 — Luminifera hugs elara
14:56 → Olivebirdy joined (Olivebirdy@dlp-7F15EB7D.bb.netvision.net.il)
14:56 <Olivebirdy> Hi, I'm back
14:56 <Olivebirdy> jphone died
14:56 <Luminifera> hello!
14:56 <Olivebirdy> Okay,yes, most likely elohim is plural.
14:56 <Luminifera> does it have to be on Skype, olive?
14:57 <Olivebirdy> However, this does not mean that it is plural /here/.
14:57 <Olivebirdy> No, but it would make it easier.
14:57 <Elara> easier how? do you just not like typing? :S
14:57 <Olivebirdy> I speak a helluva lot faster than I type, easier to argue, explain.
14:57 <Luminifera> elara doesn't like Skype, we *could* do text stuff, right?
14:57 <Olivebirdy> :)
14:57 <Olivebirdy> Sure.
14:58 <Luminifera> :D
14:58 <Olivebirdy> Okay, so, 'Elohim' is a name, and is treated as a singular name.
14:58 <Olivebirdy> You would notice if it wasn't.
14:58 <Olivebirdy> Now, you could say that it was edited.
14:59 <Luminifera> olive, do you really think it wasn't?
14:59 <Luminifera> :o
14:59 <Olivebirdy> But, there would most likely be signs, strange stuff showing up.
14:59 <Luminifera> like ever?
14:59 <Olivebirdy> EVer?
14:59 <Olivebirdy> It would have had to be before the halacha of writing torah scrolls.
14:59 <Olivebirdy> See, it's extremely stringent.
14:59 <Elara> when was that Olive?
15:00 <Olivebirdy> Hm, I'm guessing Temple 1, Temple 2.
15:00 <Olivebirdy> Don't know.
15:00 <Luminifera> I'm curious.
15:00 <Olivebirdy> SO yes, it could have been edited, depending on how it was passed down.
15:00 <Luminifera> who came up with this?
15:00 <Olivebirdy> WHat are you curious about?
15:01 <Olivebirdy> No idea.
15:01 <Luminifera> initially? who wrote this first?
15:01 <Luminifera> hmm
15:01 <Luminifera> when did it start being copied?
15:01 <Luminifera> allegedly unedited
15:02 <Olivebirdy> Now, if you think that it was a polytheistic document that waas changed, I consider it a lot easier to belie that the name  was passed down from polytheism, rather than the whole document.
15:02 <Olivebirdy> <Luminifera> when did it start being copied?
15:02 <Olivebirdy> <Luminifera> allegedly unedited
15:02 <Olivebirdy> Hm.
15:02 <Elara> that's quite possible Olive
15:02 <Olivebirdy> More likely.
15:03 <Elara> I guess I would think that the first chapter ish, in how we now break it up, might have come down as a polytheistic text
15:03 <Olivebirdy> But sure, if more stuff comes up, we'll see.
15:03 <Olivebirdy> Not likely.
15:03 <Olivebirdy> See, if you had many gods, the point of them is to have many opinions.
15:04 <Olivebirdy>  /differing/ opinions.
15:04 <Olivebirdy> This one makes the sky, that one makes the sea...
15:04 <Elara> mmm I dunno
15:04 <Olivebirdy> But here, everything is done in order, together.
15:04 <Elara> there are mythologies where the gods all work together at the start, then things break apart later
15:04 <Olivebirdy> What is the point of polytheism, Elara?
15:05 <Olivebirdy> To explain different things that happen, no?
15:05 <Olivebirdy>  then things break apart later
15:05 <Elara> to make a coherent set of beliefs out of worship of assorted different spirits
15:05 <Olivebirdy> Ahh
15:05 <Olivebirdy> Hmm
15:05 <Elara> it's a progression IMO from animism, where you have a spirit in each great tree, and each animal, and each stream
15:05 <Olivebirdy> Too coherent, too put together.
15:06 <Olivebirdy> Not enough different personalities.
15:06 <Elara> crappy writing then :P
15:06 <Olivebirdy> See, way I see it, this is a reaction to polytheism.
15:06 <Elara> mmm
15:06 <Olivebirdy> This is the codification of monotheism.
15:07 <Elara> that is possible. depends, I guess, on how late this bit was written
15:07 <Elara> and I'm not sure if there's any consensus on that, and if so what the consensus is
15:07 <Olivebirdy> Well, let's see whose belief gets more support from the text, then :P
15:08 <Olivebirdy> Oh, and I think I saw you say that the text implies god exists physically?
15:08 <Elara> it might not, that's just what I took from the phrase about moving over the waters
15:08 <Olivebirdy> Again, we have simple metaphors.
15:08 <Olivebirdy> Not moving, exatly.
15:08 <Olivebirdy> HOvering, floating.
15:09 <Olivebirdy> Though, I will point out, that's contemorary hebrew,
15:09 <Olivebirdy> I don't remember this verb used anywhere else.
15:09 <Elara> the NET tells me the Syriac cognate is "to brood or incubate"
15:09 <Olivebirdy> ?
15:09 <Olivebirdy>  Syriac cognate
15:09 <Olivebirdy> Merachef?
15:10 <Olivebirdy> I am pretty confused, now.
15:11 <Elara> the word which is translated as moving or hovering/floating, apparently the closest equivalent in Syriac means brood over or incubate (like a mother bird), i.e. in preparation for the creative acts which are about to follow
15:12 <Olivebirdy> Okay, as far as I can tell, Syriac is an ancient language.
15:12 <Elara> yeah, a related language to Hebrew, so it offers some limited help in interpreting rare or unusual Hebrew words found in the text
15:13 <Elara> can't ever give you anything conclusive, but it can point in valid-looking directions
15:13 <Olivebirdy> Weak point: The water was at that point all over, there is no mention of how /big/ God was. Could have been enveloping.
15:13 <Olivebirdy> Stronger point: No description of God, At all.
15:13 <Olivebirdy> No beard, no height, no color.
15:13 <Elara> oh true, it's hardly making him out as a great big man in the sky
15:14 <Olivebirdy> Not even a gender.
15:14 <Olivebirdy> Could be an 'it'.
15:14 <Elara> but it's further from omnimax God than I'd expected, is all
15:14 <Olivebirdy> Now, if you--
15:14 <Olivebirdy> Oh, I thought you were saying that they believed God had a physical form.
15:15 <Elara> it sort of implies God having a physical form
15:15 <Olivebirdy> So I was countering that.
15:15 <Elara> fair enough
15:16 <Elara> any points you wanted to bring out, in this first wee bit?
15:16 <Olivebirdy> Now, if you say that God had a physical form and that the writers believed that, I would say that they would give him a description.
15:16 <Olivebirdy> Nah, I already pointed out the metaphor one.
15:16 <Luminifera> cool!
15:16 <Olivebirdy> THat's the only big thing I can think of.
15:16 <Olivebirdy> :)
15:17 <Elara> so the timescale is metaphorical, right?
15:17 <Olivebirdy> Yep.
15:17 <Olivebirdy> No possible way for it to be literal.
15:17 <Olivebirdy> ...
15:17 <Olivebirdy> Welllll
15:18 <Elara> hard to conclusively rule anything out, huh?
15:18 <Olivebirdy> Unless they believed that the light and dark that God created in the first day cycled.
15:18 <Olivebirdy> :) yep.
15:18 <Olivebirdy> And 'counted' as a literal 'day'.
15:18 <Elara> ok, I'll read a bit more
15:19 <Luminifera> 11:06 AM <Olivebirdy> This is the codification of monotheism.
15:20 <Luminifera> could it be that a person decided that it made more sense for there to be one god rather than many, and so wrote a text to explain how a single god made everything?
15:20 <Olivebirdy> Yep.
15:20 <Olivebirdy> In fact, I consider it pretty likely.
15:20 <Luminifera> so, using elohim, they could approach their so-far politheist audience better
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Yep.
15:21 <Luminifera> since it would evoke something they're already used to
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Sounds good to me.
15:21 <Luminifera> also separating all the things that were created, in different days
15:21 <Olivebirdy> WHy is that important?
15:21 <Luminifera> possibly how it was already explained by the poli myths, but unifying it
15:21 <Luminifera> its how everything started
15:21 <Elara> yeah, it's notable that there's a monotheistic strand in Hinduism, in Egyptian religion...
15:22 <Olivebirdy> ?
15:22 <Luminifera> I wonder if that person ever thought about the possible ramifications of this
15:22 <Luminifera> this monotheism revolution (I'll call it that, given that most religious people are monotheists) literally... wow
15:22 <Luminifera> so many things stemmed from that
15:22 <Elara> some Iranian religions took a different path, to having one good god and one evil god, but a whole bunch of different religious traditions went for having fewer gods
15:22 <Olivebirdy> I don't know what you mean, Elara, and I don't know why Lumi thinks it's imprtant that the creation was seperated.
15:23 <Luminifera> oh the separated thing? wait
15:23 <Olivebirdy> Having fewer gods is not entirely the same as monotheism, though.
15:23 <Olivebirdy> brb
15:23 <Elara> basically my opinion is that philosophically it's a lot easier to justify one god (or one good and one evil god) than a whole bunch of gods
15:24 <Luminifera> so in this ancient hypothetic politheist religion could hold the belief that different gods made different things
15:25 <Luminifera> and so, writing a monotheistic creation myth, separating what was created when,
15:25 <Luminifera> it's like the politheistic myth, but now only one god does everything
15:26 <Luminifera> could be that it was based on the stories that were already there.
15:26 <Olivebirdy> Ah. Sort of the equivalent of making sure nobody had an alibi :)
15:27 <Luminifera> such as, and so the god of water separated the sea from the sky, giving birth to the gods of the moon and the sun and the stars, etc
15:27 <Luminifera> who each created the sun and moon and stars and etc
15:27 <Elara> my God made this and this and this and this. "And that?" "YES THAT TOO"
15:28 <Luminifera> except now it's *the* God that made all that stuff, not birthing any other gods
15:28 <Elara> I mean you get the real emphasis and re-emphasis of that in John 1, "and without him nothing was made"
15:28 <Elara> or whatever the exact quote is
15:28 <Luminifera> I don't know if I'm making myself very clear
15:28 <Olivebirdy> Yeah. No more bargaining, or playing gods off other gods, or seperation or limits of powers.
15:28 <Elara> I get you Lumi
15:29 <Luminifera> :D
15:29 <Olivebirdy> Yep.
15:29 <Elara> now, at the end of Chapter 1, we have the creation of humans (the first time)
15:30 <Olivebirdy> Consolidation of gods makes sense if you think in termos of politics.
15:30 <Olivebirdy> In polytheism, at least.
15:30 <Olivebirdy> The less popular gods' congregations get swallowed up and marginalized.
15:30 <Elara> yeah, gradual consolidation makes sense
15:31 <Olivebirdy> Zeus has a much prettier temple than Heastia's.
15:31 <Elara> it's the move to one god that's the interesting one
15:31 <Olivebirdy> SO more people pray to Zeus.
15:31 <Elara> and it does seem to recur a few different times
15:31 <Olivebirdy> Hestia becomes less and less popular, and then becomes a minor god.
15:31 <Elara> storm gods and war gods seem to do pretty well out of it, too
15:32 <Luminifera> I still need to read the thing :(
15:32 <Olivebirdy> (I don't remember Hestia's position)
15:32 <Olivebirdy> Yeah, okayyyy
15:32 <Luminifera> who's hestia
15:32 <Elara> Goddess of the hearth, I think
15:32 <Olivebirdy> Goddess of the ---
15:32 <Olivebirdy> :<
15:32 <Olivebirdy> <Elara> it's the move to one god that's the interesting one
15:33 <Olivebirdy> <Olivebirdy> Yeah. No more bargaining, or playing gods off other gods, or seperation or limits of powers.
15:33 <Elara> "virgin goddess of the hearth, architecture, and the right ordering of domesticity, the family, and the state"
15:33 <Luminifera> what's a hearth
15:33 <Olivebirdy> Part of a fireplace.
15:33 <Olivebirdy> THe part in front of the fire.
15:33 <Elara> the fireplace in your home, that allows you warmth and hot food without burning your home down
15:34 <Luminifera> ohhh.
15:34 <Elara> thus representative of *home*  and *safety* in general
15:34 <Luminifera> I never had a fireplace.
15:34 <Luminifera> they're not common here. guess why. hahaha
15:34 <Elara> yeah, I guess hearth gods weren't exactly common in traditional religions of Brazil either Lumi :P
15:36 <Elara> ok Olive, there's that, but from my awareness of Greek and Roman religion people didn't play gods off against other gods
15:36 <Elara> they bargained, sure, but in ways that weren't considered hubristic or disrespectful
15:37 <Olivebirdy> Ah.
15:37 <Olivebirdy> How about gods that were antagonistic to each other?
15:37 <Olivebirdy> Like, Zeus and Posiedon?
15:37 <Elara> you worshipped one or the other rather than both
15:38 <Elara> and a Zeus worshipper would still make an offering at Poseidon's temple before a sea voyage, most likely
15:39 <Olivebirdy> Makes sense.
15:41 <Elara> all of this with a caveat that I haven't studied it in depth for years and will have forgotten some stuff
16:00 <Olivebirdy> Sure.
16:27 <Elara> wonder when Rhet's gonna wake up and slog through all this XD
16:28 <Luminifera> hahaha
16:28 <Luminifera> no idea
16:28 <Luminifera> what time did he go to sleep yesterday?
16:28 <Luminifera> it's supposed to be 10:30 for him now
16:29 <Elara> he crashed out like 6 hours ago or something
16:29 <Luminifera> pffffff
16:29 <Luminifera> how irresponsible.
17:01 <Luminifera> why is nobody talking :(
17:02 <Elara> Well I was waiting for you to read it or Rhet to show up
17:03 <Elara> Rather than keep bashing thru Genesis between me and Olive
17:03 <Luminifera> ohhh
17:03 Rhet|sleep → •Rhetorical
17:03 <Luminifera> speak of the devil
17:03 <•Rhetorical> :P
17:03 <•Rhetorical> And he shall appear
17:04 <Luminifera> amen satan
17:05 <Luminifera> are you here to steal our souls
17:06 <•Rhetorical> Yes
17:06 <Luminifera> well you're out of luck, I don't have one
17:06 <•Rhetorical> Aw
17:06 <Luminifera> elara is an atheist so she already sold hers obviously
17:07 <Luminifera> you're stuck with olive
17:07 <Elara> I got a cake for it!
17:07 <•Rhetorical> Darn
17:08 <Luminifera> elara wtf. you should ask something decent to kyubey.
17:08 <Luminifera> don't just become a magical girl for cake
17:16 — •Rhetorical reads back
17:16 <•Rhetorical> Huh
17:16 <Elara> Yeah we started without you
17:17 <•Rhetorical> D:
17:17 <Elara> Figured you'd catch up
17:18 <•Rhetorical> One thing, regarding the plural of Elohim vs the singular verb created
17:18 <•Rhetorical> I've heard that pointed to as a deliberate reference to the Trinity
17:20 <Olivebirdy> What is the Holy Ghost?
17:22 <Olivebirdy> Anyway, Party Time.
17:22 <Olivebirdy> Wish me luck.
17:22 <•Rhetorical> Um, third person of the Trinity, referred to as a "helper", in the OT would come upon people for certain tasks or time periods
17:23 <Elara> Yeah, I'm aware some Christians try to project the trinity back into the passage like that
17:24 <Elara> Was mentioned in the NET notes, too (I will not have time to read all dem notes, but the ones I do read are great)
17:25 <•Rhetorical> I take it you've already dismissed that
17:26 <Elara> I don't take very seriously the idea that a Christian dogma was involved in writing the Jewish holy book, no :P
17:26 <Elara> I doubt Olive is any more convinced either
17:26 <•Rhetorical> Hmm
17:27 <Elara> I see how it makes sense from a Christian perspective I guess
17:27 <•Rhetorical> Yeah, I guess it only works if you've already accepted divine inspiration
17:28 <Elara> *Christian divine inspiration
17:29 <Luminifera> I'm home
17:29 <Elara> \o/
17:29 <Elara> What do you make of the idea elohim refers to the trinity Lumi?
17:30 <Luminifera> Jesus was born thousands of years after genesis was first written
17:30 <Elara> Mmm, what about that Holy Spirit tho
17:30 <Luminifera> I hardly think the person who wrote this thought about a possible jesus
17:30 ⇐ •Rhetorical quit (uid75809@dlp-7E194192.tooting.irccloud.com) Ping timeout: 180 seconds
17:30 <Luminifera> God and holy spirit isn't a trinity
17:31 <Luminifera> and... to be fair... I never really grasped this holy spirit thing.
17:31 <Elara> Heh, fair enough
17:31 → •Rhetorical (promoted to owner, opped) joined




17:31 <•Rhetorical> Well
17:32 <•Rhetorical> That was odd
17:32 <Elara> What else you reckon on Genesis 1 Rhet?
17:32 <•Rhetorical> Hmm
17:33 <•Rhetorical> I don't think there's too much room for a metaphorical interpretation of "day"
17:33 <•Rhetorical> The way it's phrased in Hebrew
17:34 <Luminifera> you think it means like, 24 hours? a day cycle?
17:34 <Luminifera> light/dark/light like olive said
17:34 <•Rhetorical> Everywhere else in contemporary literature, it's used to mean a literal 24-hour day
17:35 <•Rhetorical> Whereas the word day by itself is used metaphorically elsewhere
17:35 <Luminifera> hmm
17:35 <Luminifera> I wonder if who wrote it intended it to mean that?
17:35 <•Rhetorical> I think they did
17:35 <Elara> Contemporary usage is very different though
17:36 <Luminifera> maybe the base mythos involved creating the world in only a few days.
17:36 <•Rhetorical> Contemporary with the original writing
17:36 <Elara> Do we have much of that vintage?
17:36 <•Rhetorical> Not sure what all is used
17:36 <Elara> Besides isn't Jewish consensus that it's metaphorical? 'S their book, I would think they'd know
17:37 <Elara> Olive was pretty firm about it
17:37 <•Rhetorical> Again, depends on how you approach it
17:38 <Elara> Mmm?
17:39 <•Rhetorical> A Christian would say it's not their book, it's God's, and the Jewish scholars ate misinterpreting
17:39 <•Rhetorical> *are
17:39 <Luminifera> hmm
17:39 <Luminifera> but...
17:39 <Luminifera> um...
17:39 <Elara> I mean, people at the time would probably have viewed it metaphorically, creation myths are more about how people see the world than about literal facts
17:39 <Luminifera> it technically was a jewish book loooooong before it became a Christian book...
17:39 <Elara> Generally
17:40 <Luminifera> so... jewish scholars might be misinterpreting... but it is their book anyway
17:40 <Luminifera> maybe elara? wouldn't a person want to know how exactly the world was created?
17:40 <•Rhetorical> Y'all are going to make me get out of bed, aren't you
17:40 <Luminifera> at that time, even?
17:40 <Luminifera> nope.
17:40 <Luminifera> get out of bed if you want to, only
17:41 <•Rhetorical> Phone keyboard so slow
17:41 <Luminifera> I have been using a phone keyboard this whole time...
17:41 <•Rhetorical> :P
17:41 <Luminifera> if you add the tablet keyboard, which is somehow worse, that's what I've been using for weeks.
17:41 <•Rhetorical> I have Swype
17:43 <Luminifera> I have disabled Swype
17:43 <•Rhetorical> There
17:43 <•Rhetorical> That's better
17:43 <Elara> Sure Lumi but that's been unattainable for most of history
17:43 <•Rhetorical> Elara: were creation myths interpreted primarily metaphorically?
17:44 <Elara> Yes, generally
17:45 <•Rhetorical> Huh
17:45 <Elara> I doubt many people ever thought the world was made of eggshell
17:45 <Elara> For example
17:45 <Luminifera> what I'm saying is
17:46 <Luminifera> well. hmm. actually, yeah
17:46 <Luminifera> people in general don't tend to care about finding out stuff
17:46 <Luminifera> so okay
17:46 <•Rhetorical> That's a broad statement
17:46 <Luminifera> eh.
17:47 <Luminifera> most people in the world are religious.
17:47 <•Rhetorical> Are you saying being religious implies not caring about finding  out stuff?
17:47 <Luminifera> meaning most people in the world rely on divinities for explanations of why and how stuff is
17:47 <Elara> Creation myths are about who are we as a people; what kind of world do we live in; what's going on?
17:48 <Elara> A myth that's about desperate conflict between gods, about violence and death
17:48 <Luminifera> meaning for many of those a lot of questions are easily answered with "God something something"
17:48 <Luminifera> they are satisfied with that, so they don't seek another answers.
17:49 <Luminifera> someone who wouldn't be satisfied with that would seek a more satisfying answer. and might find out something new, or a reason that makes more sense.
17:49 <Luminifera> is what I meant.
17:49 <•Rhetorical> I don't think that's limited to religion
17:49 <Luminifera> it isnt
17:49 <Luminifera> but it ties into thst
17:50 <•Rhetorical> If I went to the English department and asked how atoms work, I'd get an answer of "Scientists something something"
17:50 <Elara> Sets up a different world to one where God calmly speaks and things happen
17:50 <Luminifera> hehehe
17:50 <•Rhetorical> A lot of people don't care about things that don't directly affect them
17:51 <•Rhetorical> or people they know
17:51 <Luminifera> the thing is... we acknowledge that we don't actually know how atoms work
17:51 <•Rhetorical> We do?
17:51 <•Rhetorical> I thought we had it pretty well nailed down
17:51 <Luminifera> that's what it's called atomic *model*
17:51 <Luminifera> nope. it's assumptions.
17:51 <•Rhetorical> Yes, everything is a modle
17:51 <•Rhetorical> *model
17:52 <•Rhetorical> It's not assumptions
17:52 <Luminifera> "the atom is probably like this, because it makes sense if it is"
17:52 <•Rhetorical> It's a guess based on evidence
17:52 <Elara> Sets up a different world to one where God calmly speaks and things happen
17:52 <•Rhetorical> That is then tested in different ways
17:52 <Luminifera> yeah same thing.
17:52 <Elara> We've got a decent model, some assumptions, and some evidence, but we don't *know* how atoms work
17:52 <•Rhetorical> Assumptions usually are not tested
17:54 <•Rhetorical> My point was
17:54 <•Rhetorical> um
17:55 <•Rhetorical> People don't care about things all the time. Sometimes they have religion cover those areas, other times scientists, other times historians, etc.
17:55 <•Rhetorical> I don't think it's fair to say most people are religion -> I'm not surprised people don't care about finding out stuff
17:55 <•Rhetorical> *religious
17:56 <Elara> So Rhet, you do think Gen 1 is meant to be read literally?
17:57 <•Rhetorical> I think it's meant to be read literally in that you can't, say, claim it's a description of theistic evolution, for example
17:57 <Luminifera> hey sorry connection is bad
17:57 <•Rhetorical> Whether it actually happened is different than whether it should be read literally or not
17:58 <•Rhetorical> As you said, most creation myths are meant to be read literally, but not applied literally
17:58 <Luminifera> what do you mean?
17:58 <Elara> Right, so you read it as a literal account, accuracy tbd, rather than a metaphorical account
17:59 <Luminifera> why is brown meat ALWAYS so much better than white meat????
17:59 <Elara> I don't really see the appeal of that view? Like, surely a metaphorical account covers your bases there?
17:59 <•Rhetorical> I don't think there's room for the sort of "day means a non-determinate time period of somewhere around 1000 to 1,000,000 years" metaphor
17:59 <Luminifera> I think rhet is using different words to mean the same thing as us elara
18:00 <•Rhetorical> So I guess I'm referring specifically to the day thing
18:00 <•Rhetorical> If I'm writing Genesis 1, and I want to make it clear that I mean a literal 24-hour day, that's how I would write it
18:00 <•Rhetorical> "The evening, and the morning: the third day"
18:01 <•Rhetorical> I'm not just saying day, I'm literally describing the definition of the word
18:01 <•Rhetorical> evening and morning
18:01 <Elara> But with no sun on the first days, what does day even mean?
18:02 <•Rhetorical> Verses 4 and 5
18:02 <•Rhetorical> God created light, separated it from darkness, called the light day and the dark night
18:03 <Elara> Mmm
18:03 <•Rhetorical> If the earth is spinning, and half the area around it is light, and the other half is dark
18:03 <Elara> But the light is coming from nowhere
18:03 <Elara> And the sun's older than the earth
18:03 <•Rhetorical> One argument would be that this whole chapter is about stuff coming from nowhere
18:04 <•Rhetorical> Mmhmm
18:04 <Elara> So that makes 0 sense
18:04 <•Rhetorical> Now you're talking about historical application of the text
18:04 <Elara> Even in an ancient context, light comes from the sun moon and stars
18:05 <Elara> If this is meant to be literal
18:05 <•Rhetorical> I guess I'm saying that the chapter can be /applied/ non-literally; i.e., it didn't actually happen in exactly the way it's written
18:06 <•Rhetorical> But I don't think it can be /interpreted/ as a text non-literally
18:06 <•Rhetorical> Perhaps I'm arguing about a different thing
18:08 <Elara> But it clearly can, because whole denominations do
18:09 <Elara> Maybe it *shouldn't be*, maybe the correct interpretation is literal (which I still doubt) but non literal interpretations are pretty popular
18:09 <•Rhetorical> In this case I would say they are interpreting it incorrectly, based on my understanding of the text
18:09 <Luminifera> I'm so sleepy.
18:09 <Luminifera> and also sad. I don't know why.
18:09 — •Rhetorical hugs Lumi
18:09 — Elara hugs both
18:10 <•Rhetorical> I don't think the non-literal interpretations are consistent with the way the chapter is written
18:10 <Luminifera> hmm
18:10 <•Rhetorical> Also we picked a hell of a passage to start out with, eh
18:10 <•Rhetorical> Straight to the fun stuff
18:12 •Rhetorical was demoted from owner (-q) by ChanServ
18:12 <Elara> Well start at the beginning
18:13 <•Rhetorical> I mean, we could have started with, say, Psalms
18:13 <•Rhetorical> Since they're not really confined to a single period
18:14 <Elara> I dunno, I guess to me someone writing in broad terms about the very beginning is working with metaphor unless shown to be otherwise, because that's how stories work
18:14 <Elara> "Once upon a time" and all that
18:15 <•Rhetorical> Mmm
18:15 <•Rhetorical> Perhaps
18:15 <•Rhetorical> https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?p=855556#post855556
18:16 <Luminifera> hello
18:17 <•Rhetorical> Hello
18:17 <Elara> I would not rate Fulcrum 5/5, but XD anyway
18:17 <Luminifera> do you come here often, rhet?
18:17 <•Rhetorical> I've been here pretty often since this place has opened
18:18 <•Rhetorical> There're some nice regulars
18:18 <Elara> You flatterer you
18:18 <•Rhetorical> <3
18:18 <Elara> <3
18:19 — •Rhetorical nudges Lumi
18:19 — Luminifera is nudged
18:19 <•Rhetorical> <3?
18:19 <Elara> I am going to be "networking" shortly. If it all goes too horribly I will be getting drunk
18:19 <Luminifera> I'm gonna read the first chapter
18:19 <Elara> Either way, don't mind me
18:19 <Luminifera> what's less than three?
18:19 <•Rhetorical> Have fun, Elara
18:19 <Luminifera> I want to mind you elara :(
18:19 <Luminifera> <3 we will miss you
18:21 <Luminifera> hmm
18:22 <Luminifera> is the chan gonna be silent now that elara is gone?
18:22 <•Rhetorical> Dunno
18:24 <Elara> You can talk about me if you're out of other ideas, my dears
18:24 <Elara> <3
18:25 <•Rhetorical> So how 'bout that Elara, huh?
18:26 <Luminifera> hahaha
18:26 <Luminifera> I heard she wouldn't even rate her own fanfic as 5/5!
18:26 <Luminifera> probably because she's aware that it sucks, and also she smells,
18:27 <•Rhetorical> D:
18:27 <Luminifera> and her hair is oily and her nails are chipped.
18:27 <Luminifera> etc
18:27 <•Rhetorical> I think she's pretty nice
18:28 <Luminifera> wow rhet way to be sarcastically rude about elara :/
18:29 <•Rhetorical> :(
18:29 <Luminifera> does this mean you don't actually think she's nice?
18:29 <Luminifera> or maybe you're just trying to curry favor.
18:29 <Luminifera> there's no need for that, everyone knows you're much more likable than me
18:29 <•Rhetorical> :(
18:30 <Luminifera> why the frowny face?
18:32 <•Rhetorical> Y'all are both nice
18:32 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit (Olivebirdy@dlp-7F15EB7D.bb.netvision.net.il) Ping timeout: 188 seconds
18:32 <Luminifera> whats up with the y'alls
18:33 <Luminifera> woke up feeling particularly Texan?
18:33 <•Rhetorical> You is singular
18:33 <•Rhetorical> Y'all is plural
18:33 <Luminifera> you are cute
18:33 <Luminifera> y'all are also cute but you're particularly cuter
18:34 <•Rhetorical> Calculus exam this evening...
18:34 <•Rhetorical> :\
18:35 <Luminifera> good luck
18:35 <•Rhetorical> Thanks
18:35 <•Rhetorical> Shouldn't be too bad
18:50 <Luminifera> Two great lights. The text goes to great length to discuss the creation of these lights, suggesting that the subject was very important to the ancients. Since these “lights” were considered deities in the ancient world, the section serves as a strong polemic (see G. Hasel, “The Polemical Nature of the Genesis Cosmology,” EvQ 46 [1974]: 81-102). The
18:50 <Luminifera> Book of Genesis is affirming they are created entities, not deities. To underscore this the text does not even give them names. If used here, the usual names for the sun and moon [Shemesh and Yarih, respectively] might have carried pagan connotations, so they are simply described as greater and lesser lights. Moreover, they serve in the capacity that God
18:50 <Luminifera> gives them, which would not be the normal function the pagans ascribed to them. They merely divide, govern, and give light in God’s creation
18:51 <Luminifera> interesting. ties in nicely with my idea of it being a myth created to introduce the idea of a single god, getting rid of the others. the sun and moon cease to be deities, becoming simply creations. objects.
19:00 <Luminifera> God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals, each according to its kind.”
19:00 <Luminifera> God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals, each according to its kind.”
19:00 <Luminifera> ... so cattle was created specifically as cattle? like, as animals to be domesticated and eaten?
19:00 <•Rhetorical> Nope
19:01 <•Rhetorical> Meat wasn't given as food until after the Flood, IIRC
19:02 <Luminifera> hmm
19:02 <Luminifera> but
19:02 <Luminifera> it says cattle...
19:02 <•Rhetorical> Because that's what you call them?
19:02 <•Rhetorical> I'm not sure what you're saying
19:03 <Luminifera> .-.
19:03 <•Rhetorical> Cattle doesn't imply they're for food, I don't think
19:03 <•Rhetorical> Difference between English and Portuguese?
19:04 <Luminifera> maybe it's just cause we have a word which I thought was the English cattle, here
19:04 <Luminifera> "gado"
19:04 <•Rhetorical> You'd have to look at the Hebrew to see what the original word meant
19:05 <•Rhetorical> It may just mean large grass-eating animal
19:05 <Luminifera> it has the obvious connotation of "animal that you eat", since it refers to cows, chicken, pigs, sheep, etc
19:05 <Luminifera> yeah.
19:05 <•Rhetorical> Or something like that
19:05 <•Rhetorical> Cattle just means cows
19:06 <•Rhetorical> large ruminant animals with horns and cloven hoofs, domesticated for meat or milk, or as beasts of burden; cows.
19:09 <Luminifera> ohhh.
19:10 <Elara> But it's cattle and beasts of the field, as distinct from wild animals and pests
19:10 <Elara> So cattle seems to cover domesticated...
19:12 <•Rhetorical> You'd have to look at the Hebrew
19:14 <Elara> Check a concordance?
19:16 <•Rhetorical> Yeah
19:16 <•Rhetorical> I have one at home
19:23 <Elara> But yeah to me that's clearly all domesticated animals
19:24 <Elara> Useful animals, problem animals, other animals
19:25 <•Rhetorical> I'd guess if cattle is an accurate translation, then it means "those animals that we have since domesticated"
19:25 <•Rhetorical> Or something
19:51 <Luminifera> God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.
19:51 <Luminifera> this is before any mention of eve.
19:52 <Luminifera> before her creation in the second chapter
19:52 <Luminifera> who was this female?
19:52 <Luminifera> I don't know about jewish traditions but I was always told the first humans were Adam and eve. we see Adam here being referenced. but no eve, she comes later. but who is this female being created now?
20:02 <Elara> Adam can mean generic human
20:08 <Elara> Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two different creation stories, I think if you read 1 on it's own women are pretty clearly there at the same time as men <3
20:22 <Elara> Xx Luminifera xx
21:33 → Olivebirdy joined (50f68b50@dlp-66E2EF72.mibbit.com)
21:33 <Olivebirdy> Yo.
21:45 <Elara> o/
21:51 ↔ Olivebirdy nipped out



22:00 <Luminifera> hello?
22:01 <Luminifera> yes elara!!!! how did I miss that when I was a kid?
22:01 <Luminifera> they created various people
22:01 <Luminifera> and then Adam and eve came later
22:02 <Luminifera> funny how women were create alongside men when God made humanity in general, but to make his special chosen people (jewish people) God makes a special woman from Adam's rib? and names her his 'assistant', places her below him
22:07 <Elara> Helpmeet, and depending on interpretation that's equal
22:09 <Elara> Because mete can mean equal
22:11 <Luminifera> meet?
22:12 <Luminifera> ehhhhh
22:12 <Luminifera> ehhhhhhhhhh
22:12 <Luminifera> I'll let you all have this
22:16 <Elara> Have you heard the phrase to make ends meet?
22:16 <Luminifera> yes
22:17 <Elara> Right, that phrase means making things equal, and used to be meet = mete
22:17 <Elara> And helpmeet is the same sense of meet/mete
22:29 <Olivebirdy> ?
22:29 <Olivebirdy> Helpmeet?
22:30 <Olivebirdy> The phrase is 'ozer cenegdo'
22:30 <Olivebirdy> Helper against him.
22:30 <Olivebirdy> Or helper opposite him.
22:30 <Olivebirdy> It does imply equality.
22:31 <Olivebirdy> And Adam and Eve were not Jewish.
22:31 <Olivebirdy> Where is the source for the opinion that Adam and Chava were not the first?
22:34 <Luminifera> who's chava
22:35 <Elara> Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are separate creation stories Olive
22:36 <Elara> The creations in them are in separate orders, apart from anything else
22:39 <Olivebirdy> Eve.
22:39 <Olivebirdy> Ah, right.
22:39 <Luminifera> they create humanity as male and female
22:39 <Olivebirdy> Give me a sec to look it up.
22:40 <Luminifera> but in the next chapter Adam is alone and God makes him eve
22:41 <Olivebirdy> Huh.
22:41 <Olivebirdy> Chapter and verse?
22:41 <Luminifera> waito
22:42 <Luminifera> gen 1:27
22:43 <Luminifera> and then gen 2:18
22:43 <Olivebirdy> Theanks.
22:43 <Luminifera> doesn't seem to add up? if there are males and females
22:43 <Luminifera> why is Adam alone?
22:43 <Olivebirdy> Good question.
22:44 <Olivebirdy> Also, if it is telling the same story twice, what's the reason for that?
22:46 <Luminifera> I don't think it is
22:46 <Luminifera> it makes no sense?
22:46 <Luminifera> it really feels like a succession of events
22:47 <Luminifera> first he creates humanity, and then Adam was alone
22:49 <Elara> It's from two different sources
22:49 <Elara> I think one is P and one is J, but I might misremember
22:56 <Olivebirdy> ?
22:56 <Olivebirdy> Paul and John?
22:56 <Olivebirdy> Whoa, Elara, that is waaaaaay after.
22:58 <Elara> It's the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priest
22:59 <Elara> A popular if not conclusive impression of what makes up the Torah
22:59 <Olivebirdy> Mm.
23:00 <Olivebirdy> It's a short story, then the elaboration.
23:00 <Olivebirdy> Rather, a list and then a story.
23:00 <Olivebirdy> So, it went 5, 6, 7, then it says what happened on the 6.
23:02 <Elara> Apparently genesis is mostly G and E
23:03 <Olivebirdy> It's a bit hard to prove, but it explicitly says 'terem X', as in 'it was before X happened when...'
23:03 <Elara> *J
23:04 <Luminifera> ohhh
23:04 <Olivebirdy> Isn't it a better idea to say that it has different approaches in different places than to assume that there are a bunch of authors?
23:04 <Elara> Tbh critics over the last few centuries have agreed on multiple authors
23:05 <Olivebirdy> Based on?
23:05 <Elara> 4 or 5 is debatable
23:05 <Elara> Based on literary style, language usage, themes, ...
23:05 <Olivebirdy> Because I think this was extremely debatable.
23:05 <Olivebirdy> I know what you mean, yeah.
23:06 <Olivebirdy> Cadence and everything.
23:06 <Olivebirdy> Still, though, it could just be style.
23:06 <Elara> Details are debatable, but the basic idea that it isn't one coherent document is pretty much certain
23:06 <•Rhetorical> Re: helpmeet
23:06 <•Rhetorical> Isn't the same or a similar word used of the Holy Spirit?
23:07 <•Rhetorical> Or the Greek equivalent, in the NT
23:07 <Olivebirdy> Sure, it's not particularly organized.
23:07 <Olivebirdy> Maybe?
23:07 <Olivebirdy> Probably. 'Helpmeet'  had to come from /somewhere/.
23:07 <•Rhetorical> Something I read somewhere
23:08 <Olivebirdy> Ozer cenegdo is actually quite pretty.
23:08 <Elara> Anyway I'ma crash out. I recommend looking up the documentary hypothesis
23:09 <Olivebirdy> It has connotations of antagonist and friend.
23:09 <Olivebirdy> Like a frenemy.
23:09 <•Rhetorical> Hmm
23:09 <Elara> Because it is well supported, and it affects much of the Pentateuch
23:09 <•Rhetorical> Not much point in a helper if they're just a copy of you, I guess
23:10 <Olivebirdy> But yeah, point is, helpmeet seems to be a poor translation.
23:10 <•Rhetorical> o/ Elara
23:10 <Olivebirdy> Oh, here.
23:11 <Olivebirdy> It literally means 'a helper opposite you' or 'equal to you'
23:11 <•Rhetorical> Hmm
23:22 <Olivebirdy> Documentary theory is interesting stuff.
23:22 <Olivebirdy> Not entirely sure what it's based on, though.
23:23 <Olivebirdy> I am. going to need to read ajd reread the wiki article.
23:30 <Olivebirdy> Bleh, there went the easiest proof against the Documentary theory.
23:32 <Olivebirdy> I was thinking that if the Hasmonean Kingdom was after the Talmud, they would have not mentioned the Torah quotes if it had been authored afterwards.
23:33 <Olivebirdy> But, the dating on the docu theory has the latest at 40 bce, while the Mishnah is apparently about 200 ce.
23:33 <Olivebirdy> Huh.
23:34 <Olivebirdy> I had thought Christ lived at about the same time as the Talmud. Wow. Learned something new.
23:36 <Olivebirdy> So the misnah is after the Greek and Roman conquest of Israel.
23:46 <Luminifera> 7:09 PM <Olivebirdy> It has connotations of antagonist and friend.
23:47 <Luminifera> why do I get homestuck vibes from this...
23:49 <Luminifera> who's talmud
23:52 <•Rhetorical> What, not who
23:59 <Olivebirdy> That is a big, complicated answer, and one I will not answer tonight.
23:59 <Olivebirdy> Wikipedia has a good article.
00:00 <Luminifera> okay.
00:00 <Olivebirdy> The more I think about it, the more i like ozer kenegdo. Helper equal/opposite/against him.
00:01 <Olivebirdy> It's poetic, and seems pretty egalitarian.
00:04 <Luminifera> sounds like <3<
00:10 <Olivebirdy> Yep, and <3.
00:10 <Olivebirdy> And <>
00:19 <Luminifera> hahahaha
00:19 <Luminifera> karezi
00:19 <Luminifera> I used to ship that sooo hard
00:20 <Luminifera> but eh. davekat.
00:20 <Luminifera> and vrister.
00:20 <Luminifera> hell yeah.
00:20 <Luminifera> B|
00:44 <Olivebirdy> Docu theory is very interesting.
00:45 <Olivebirdy> I'm up to date, more or less, on J, P, E, and D.
00:45 <Olivebirdy> I can definitely see where the theory is coming from.
00:46 <Olivebirdy> Some of it seems a bit weak, but yeah, it definitely seems to have truth to it.
00:50 <Olivebirdy> Two problems: Talmud flat-out denies it, and has no record of any sort of modification.
00:50 <Olivebirdy> Still, 200/500 years is a long time...
00:50 <Olivebirdy> Bleh.
00:54 <Luminifera> wow
00:57 <Olivebirdy> ?
00:59 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit  •  Rhetorical → •Rhet|exam



01:33 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


09:16 → Elara joined  •  Channel mode: +sntr



09:17 <Elara> mornin'
09:37 → Luminifera joined  •  Rhetorical → •Rhet|sleep



13:36 <Elara> 200/500 years is a long time, yeah. long enough for all kindsa shenanigans
13:36 — Elara shakes head
13:36 <Elara> oh, still no Olive here. meh
13:36 <Luminifera> hehehe
13:36 <Luminifera> are we gonna read chapter 2 today?
13:37 <Elara> probably should, if we're ever going to get through the whole damn book :P
13:38 <Luminifera> hahaha
13:38 <Luminifera> yeah.
13:38 <Luminifera> we should read more than a chapter a day tbh.
13:39 <Elara> chapter a day takes over 3 years apparently
13:40 You invited Olivebirdy to join #BookRead
13:40 → Olivebirdy joined (b920b3f4@dlp-2F212AF1.mibbit.com)
13:41 <Olivebirdy> Hi.
13:42 <Elara> eyyo
13:42 <Elara> figured we should at least have a stab at chapter 2
13:43 <Luminifera> yes.
13:43 <Luminifera> we should probably take a few chapters a day. :P
13:43 <Luminifera> like two or three.
13:44 <Olivebirdy> Sure.
13:51 — Elara toddles off to read Genesis 2
14:05 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit (b920b3f4@dlp-2F212AF1.mibbit.com) Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client
14:28 <Elara> oh, Olive left again. eh
14:28 <Elara> my main thing on Genesis 2 is that it's a separate creation story to 1
14:31 <Elara> why have 2? I dunno
14:42 <Luminifera> irk??
14:42 <Luminifera> ikr*
14:43 <Elara> I mean they have very different focuses, but you'd think you'd at least edit them to be compatible with each other
14:45 <Luminifera> hmm hmm.
14:45 <Luminifera> it's why I thought initially, maybe it was the creation of jewish people
14:46 <Elara> weeeelll...when they get chucked out of the Garden their kids will start marrying people. those people must have come from somewhere
14:46 <Elara> so there is that
14:52 <Luminifera> yeah.
14:54 <Elara> then again, the second story says that man was made when there was nothing else alive
14:57 <Elara> also there is what seems to be a scribal interpolation, of which there will be many, many more
14:58 <Elara> " That is why 71  a man leaves 72  his father and mother and unites with 73  his wife, and they become a new family. " <- it doesn't fit with the ongoing story, but it's the sort of thing someone says to themselves when reading the text, and notes on a margin or something
14:58 <Elara> then the next time the text is copied, it gets put in as an actual line rather than on a margin, and from now on it's part of the text
14:58 → Olivebirdy joined (b920b3f4@dlp-2F212AF1.mibbit.com)
14:58 <Luminifera> boo
14:58 <Luminifera> hello
14:59 <Luminifera> also elara yes that sounds very reasonable
14:59 <Elara> 14:28 <Elara> oh, Olive left again. eh
14:59 <Elara> 14:28 <Elara> my main thing on Genesis 2 is that it's a separate creation story to 1
14:59 <Elara> 14:31 <Elara> why have 2? I dunno
14:59 <Elara> 14:42 <Luminifera> irk??
14:59 <Elara> 14:42 <Luminifera> ikr*
14:59 <Elara> 14:43 <Elara> I mean they have very different focuses, but you'd think you'd at least edit them to be compatible with each other
14:59 <Elara> 14:45 <Luminifera> hmm hmm.
14:59 <Elara> 14:45 <Luminifera> it's why I thought initially, maybe it was the creation of jewish people
14:59 <Elara> 14:46 <Elara> weeeelll...when they get chucked out of the Garden their kids will start marrying people. those people must have come from somewhere
14:59 <Elara> 14:46 <Elara> so there is that
14:59 <Elara> 14:52 <Luminifera> yeah.
14:59 <Elara> 14:54 <Elara> then again, the second story says that man was made when there was nothing else alive
14:59 <Elara> 14:56 <Elara> also there is what seems to be a scribal interpolation, of which there will be many, many more
14:59 <Elara> 14:57 <Elara> " That is why 71  a man leaves 72  his father and mother and unites with 73  his wife, and they become a new family. " <- it doesn't fit with the ongoing story, but it's the sort of thing someone says to themselves when reading the text, and notes on a margin or something
14:59 <Elara> 14:58 <Elara> then the next time the text is copied, it gets put in as an actual line rather than on a margin, and from now on it's part of the text
14:59 <Elara> sorry about pleh, but that's what you missed Olive, any thoughts?
15:00 <Luminifera> it's 3 pm there already? wow
15:01 <Elara> yep
15:04 <Olivebirdy> Elara	14:57 <Elara> " That is why 71  a man leaves 72  his father and mother and unites with 73  his wife, and they become a new family. " <- it doesn't fit with the ongoing story, but it's the sort of thing someone says to themselves when reading the text, and notes on a margin or something 16:59	Elara	14:58 <Elara> then the next time the text is copied, it
15:04 <Olivebirdy> Not sure what this means.
15:05 <Luminifera> like
15:05 <Luminifera> person was writing the myth
15:05 <Olivebirdy> Elara	14:46 <Elara> weeeelll...when they get chucked out of the Garden their kids will start marrying people. those people must have come from somewhere
15:05 <Luminifera> then thought to himself, hmm, this is why X thing happens
15:05 <Luminifera> and wrote it down as a comment
15:05 <Elara> ^ Lumi gets it
15:05 <Olivebirdy> Also, this is an assumption?
15:05 <Luminifera> yes
15:05 <Luminifera> it is
15:05 <Luminifera> a guess
15:06 <Elara> just looking at the text, that little bit of editorial comment doesn't fit with what else is going on
15:06 <Olivebirdy> Hm, what chapter/verse?
15:06 <Elara> 2:24
15:07 <Olivebirdy> One sec.
15:08 <Olivebirdy> Yep, it is definitely an aside.
15:09 <Olivebirdy> No particular reason to assume that it is an aside by someone else, other thwn the author.
15:09 <Olivebirdy> Only if you first assume there are several authors, would you assume it's a textual mishap
15:10 <Elara> well of course there are several authors, it's a document collated over centuries
15:10 <Elara> one man can't live through the whole thing
15:10 <Olivebirdy> Oh? Ah.
15:11 <Luminifera> ^-^ I still like to think it was somoene trying to write a nice creation myth story for a solo god
15:11 <Luminifera> because to them it just made more sense than tons of gods
15:11 <Olivebirdy> Not really...
15:11 <Olivebirdy> You could say that someone in the later centuries wrote all of it based on previous oral tradition.
15:12 <Luminifera> could be too!!!
15:12 <Luminifera> but someone has to have started it, I mean.
15:12 <Luminifera> the monotheistic thing.
15:12 <Olivebirdy> 'Moses wrote Avraham' s syory from what he was told'
15:12 <Olivebirdy> Yeah, I agree.
15:13 <Elara> whether or not you fully accept the textual hypothesis with JEDP and all that, the early books are clearly not from one author, it's implausible on the face of it
15:13 <Elara> too disjointed, too many different themes and approaches
15:13 <Olivebirdy> Why?
15:13 <Olivebirdy> Ah.
15:13 <Elara> it just doesn't read as a coherent text
15:13 <Elara> so either it's multiple authors (the likely option), or it had one author who was really really crap
15:13 <Olivebirdy> I see what you mean.
15:14 <Olivebirdy>  or it had one author who was really really crap
15:14 <Olivebirdy> Why is this unlikely?
15:15 <Elara> why would everyone honour a text written by one dude that was no good?
15:15 <Elara> you'd pick someone else's version
15:15 <Elara> (/God would inspire him to write better :P )
15:15 <Olivebirdy> What other version?
15:16 <Olivebirdy> (Ehhh)
15:16 <Elara> whereas if it's multiple authors, the different themes and approaches reflect their different priorities and interests
15:16 <Olivebirdy> Look, the later books are more lyrical, prettier. Prophets, Judges, Eccealicesesrs
15:17 <Elara> prettier. genocide. prettier. hmmmm, something doesn't fit here :P
15:17 <Elara> but I think I know what you mean
15:17 <Olivebirdy> It does make a lot of sense for it to be multiple.
15:17 <Olivebirdy> Genocide?
15:17 <Olivebirdy> Amalek?
15:17 <Luminifera> maybe
15:17 <Elara> ok, so why are you against it being multiple?
15:17 <Luminifera> lots of the early stuff was written based on oral traditions
15:17 <Luminifera> so...
15:18 <Luminifera> it makes sense if it's messy?
15:18 <Luminifera> and not very cohesive?
15:18 <Elara> it is highly likely that it's written based on oral tradition, aye; still has multiple "authors", but some of them may be orators instead of writers
15:19 <Elara> even so, compare with Homer
15:19 <Olivebirdy> Because we have a tradition of ot being one person. Be--yep, good point, Lumi--cause nobody in the Talmud notices anything close to the idea that it had multiple authors.
15:19 <Elara> still looks to me like multiple writers, per se
15:19 <Olivebirdy> And these were not at all people who would hold in their opinions.
15:20 <Olivebirdy> These were /very argumentative people /.
15:20 <Elara> ok, but slightly shit-stirring question - do any of them question whether God exists?
15:21 <Elara> (that you know of?)
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Someone would tell their students, who would tell their students, and so on.
15:21 <Olivebirdy> But there is /no mention/ of anything like it.
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Hm.
15:21 <Elara> I think some questions were off limits, even in the Talmud
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Point.
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Hm.
15:21 <Olivebirdy> Not really.
15:22 <Olivebirdy> Say, one sec, name, name...
15:22 <Luminifera> nobody would put questionings over God's existence in their holy book elara :P
15:22 <Olivebirdy> Elazar ben Azarya.
15:22 <Elara> I mean Spinoza said a lot of shit, not just that Moses didn't write the Torah, but he got into soooo much shit
15:22 <Luminifera> it's like trying to sell your fish by saying it could, possibly, be rotten
15:22 <Luminifera> no one would buy it
15:22 <Elara> but Talmud isn't the Holy Book Lumi, it's discussion of the book
15:22 <Luminifera> oh.
15:22 <Luminifera> I didn't realize you were talking about that
15:22 <Luminifera> sorry
15:23 <Olivebirdy> He became atheistic, I think.
15:23 <Olivebirdy> Rava was his student, and still honored him.
15:23 <Elara> some of it very highly respected discussion, that people take very seriously (think of it as the ascended fanon :P)
15:23 <Olivebirdy> Lumi, have you read Job?
15:24 <Luminifera> yes
15:24 <Luminifera> not recently but yes
15:24 <Olivebirdy> The whole thing is questioning God, with no good answers.
15:24 <Olivebirdy> And it was canonized.
15:24 <Luminifera> it's not questioning God's existence
15:24 <Luminifera> only God's fairness or goodness
15:24 <Olivebirdy> Mm.
15:24 <Luminifera> and in the end he got everything he lost again
15:24 <Olivebirdy> Ehhh
15:25 <Olivebirdy> It's a silly ending.
15:25 <Elara> not his family back
15:25 <Elara> also Job is kinda a polemic against people who think like Job's "friends", more than anything IMO
15:25 <Luminifera> it's more of a tale of "trust your god no matter what horrible things happen, and everything will end up being okay"
15:25 <Olivebirdy> The important bits is the questions, the discussion.
15:25 <Luminifera> he got a new family, seemed happy enough with it
15:25 <Olivebirdy> No it's not, can't be, Elara.
15:26 <Luminifera> didnt seem like he cared a lot about his old one
15:26 <Elara> mmm?
15:26 <Olivebirdy> The friends had some really good points.
15:26 <Luminifera> they did
15:26 <Luminifera> and are seen as heretical fools
15:26 <Olivebirdy> No it's not, Lumi.
15:26 <Olivebirdy> It is really not
15:26 <Olivebirdy> No, they are not.
15:26 <Luminifera> by most christians anyway
15:27 <Elara> anyway, maybe leave this until we get to Job :P
15:27 <Olivebirdy> Ohhh
15:27 <Olivebirdy> Heh.
15:27 <Olivebirdy> Okay, so Elazar ben Azarya was not condemned.
15:28 <Olivebirdy> He was treated as someone who fell, but not condemned.
15:28 <Olivebirdy> Like, poor guy, lost his footing. Very wose, though.
15:29 <Olivebirdy> It's a big frickin deal that his student continued to respect him, honor him.
15:29 <Olivebirdy> One sec.
15:30 <Olivebirdy> Crap, wrong person.
15:30 <Olivebirdy> Same story, different name.
15:30 <Elara> which is interesting, aye
15:30 <Elara> now, Genesis 3 is the good stuff
15:31 <Elara> say hello to the serpent!
15:32 <Olivebirdy> Elisha ben abuya
15:32 <Olivebirdy> Hiii
15:33 <Elara> identified by some with Satan
15:35 <Elara> (which I think only makes sense if you're viewing the whole thing as one story. reading this on it's own, this is just a talkin' snek)
15:37 <Olivebirdy> Yep.
15:37 <Olivebirdy> Talking snek.
15:38 <Elara> gotta love dat shitstirring snek
15:38 <Olivebirdy> Like, there are stories saying that it's The Prosecutor/Satan, but it's not borne out in the text.
15:39 <Elara> we agree then, I think
15:39 <Olivebirdy> Okay, so Elisha was not particularly honored.
15:40 <Olivebirdy> No idea what the /point/ of the snek is, but sure.
15:41 <Elara> it's a good question
15:44 <Elara> no, I can't come up with an obvious clear interpretation of WTF is going on there
15:44 <Olivebirdy> Maybe a popular snek god at the time of the writing?
15:46 <Olivebirdy> I'm reminded of the copper snek statue Moses put up to save the people who were bitten later.
15:46 <Elara> possssible. I mean explaining hostility to snakes shouldn't be that hard, the question is why do you need a character to make them fall at all?
15:46 <Elara> why can't the humans do it themselves, after all the point of the story is that they choose to go off the rails and disobey God's command
15:51 <Luminifera> sneaky snek
15:51 <Olivebirdy> I also find it funny that everyone points fingers at everyone else.
15:51 <Luminifera> I find it stupid to point fingers at anyone.
15:51 <Luminifera> I am in favor of eating the damn fruit
15:52 <Luminifera> 10/10 if I was eve I would have eaten it too
15:52 <Luminifera> without a tempting snake even
15:52 <Olivebirdy> And that might be the point.
15:52 <Olivebirdy> The characters need someone to try to blame.
15:52 <Elara> I think RL couples show that 2 can be plenty for that Olive :P
15:52 <Olivebirdy> Adam tries to blame god and Chava, Chava tried to blame the snek.
15:52 <Olivebirdy> Heh.
15:54 <Luminifera> chavam
15:54 <Luminifera> ?
15:54 <Luminifera> her name was chava
15:54 <Luminifera> wow
15:54 <Elara> first woman on earth was a chav
15:55 <Elara> everything makes sense now
15:55 <Luminifera> HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
15:55 <Luminifera> omg elara
15:55 <Luminifera> stop making me laugh
15:55 <Luminifera> I'm in public!!!!
15:56 <Elara> sorrynotsorry
15:56 <Elara> XD
15:56 <Olivebirdy> Chav?
15:56 <Olivebirdy> I don't get it.
15:57 <Luminifera> think squealer.
15:57 <Luminifera> stereotypical poor british person
15:57 <Olivebirdy> Also, note something interesting.
15:57 <Elara> chav is an abusive stereotype for poor people, mostly in the UK tho it seems to have spread a bit
15:57 <Olivebirdy> Look at what
15:57 <Olivebirdy> Adam passes on r
15:57 <Olivebirdy> To her
15:58 <Olivebirdy> He misinformed her.
15:58 <Olivebirdy> He said don't eat /or/ touch.
15:58 <Luminifera> ohhhhhhh
15:58 <Luminifera> but
15:58 <Luminifera> she touched it
15:58 <Luminifera> and ate it
15:58 <Elara> did he? or did she make the mistake?
15:59 <Elara> I don't think that's explicitly stated
15:59 <Olivebirdy> But she didn't die from the touching.
15:59 <Elara> though I like your interpretation because it splits blame more between them
15:59 <Olivebirdy> Read ir
15:59 <Olivebirdy> I think it does.
16:00 <Olivebirdy> Oh, wait.
16:00 <Elara> she reports that God told them not to eat or touch the fruit
16:00 <Olivebirdy> Right, right.
16:00 <Luminifera> she didn't die from the touching so she decided to eat t just to be sure
16:00 <Elara> could easily imply that Adam told her they weren't to eat it or touch it
16:00 <Luminifera> suicidal eve
16:00 <Olivebirdy> Could be her, could be Adam.
16:00 <Elara> but could also imply that she misremembered or sth
16:01 <Elara> *shrug*
16:01 <Elara> it's never clear how long they're supposed to have been in the garden, is it?
16:01 <Luminifera> or maybe she was curious and thought Adam was full of bull?
16:01 <Olivebirdy> Talmud says the snek pushed her into the fruit.
16:02 <Olivebirdy> So since she didn't die from that, shd believed it about the eating too.
16:02 <Elara> Talmud is best fanfic
16:03 <Olivebirdy> Cool.
16:03 <Olivebirdy> Talmud says that the snek said that the Tree of Knowledge would make Adam and Eve creators of worlds.
16:03 <Olivebirdy> Best fanfic!
16:05 <Elara> well isn't it?
16:06 <Olivebirdy> Baby next
16:06 <Olivebirdy> Baby nephew is making it clear he is displeased by something :)
16:07 <Elara> yay babies? :P
16:07 <Olivebirdy> Sure. Part elaboration, part memnomic, part explanation, part story, part tradition.
16:08 <Olivebirdy> Fanfic works pretty well.
16:08 <Luminifera> hehehe
16:08 <Olivebirdy> Headcanon, so on.
16:08 <Elara> I think it's a very natural urge with stories that mean a lot to us
16:08 <Luminifera> that was the best euphemism for "this baby won't stop crying" I ever heard
16:08 <Olivebirdy> Hehe.
16:08 <Elara> in a way it's sad that the equivalent stuff in Christianity isn't codified in the same way
16:08 <Luminifera> what way?
16:09 <Elara> as the Talmud in Judaism, and the Sunnah in Islam
16:09 <Elara> there's no generally agreed "this isn't the Holy Book, but it's pretty good stuff by clever and learned people"
16:09 <Olivebirdy> Elara, it also explains why everyone always argues. I'm surprised there's not more shipping :0
16:10 <Elara> some denominations even seem to try to run without having any sources but The Book
16:10 <Olivebirdy> Oh, I forgot. It's also part lesson.
16:10 <Olivebirdy> Mhm.
16:10 <Elara> that ends predictably badly
16:10 <Olivebirdy> I think that was the Saduccee denomination.
16:11 <Elara> oh, I was talking about Christianity
16:11 <Olivebirdy> Tzdokim have pretty much died out, I think.
16:11 <Olivebirdy> Oops.
16:11 <Luminifera> 12:09 PM <Olivebirdy> I'm surprised there's not more shipping :0
16:11 <Luminifera> im not
16:12 <Olivebirdy> Oh?
16:12 <Luminifera> characters are mostly male and homosexuality is frowned upon
16:12 <Luminifera> not much room for shipping there
16:12 <Olivebirdy> Oh. Hm.
16:12 <Elara> ahaha well played Lumi
16:13 <Luminifera> xD
16:13 <Elara> though David and Jonathan...
16:14 <Luminifera> yes
16:14 <Luminifera> hellllll yes
16:14 <Luminifera> super shippable
16:15 <Luminifera> john/Dave was always everyone's otp
16:15 <Luminifera> for reals
16:15 <Elara> I mean, prohibitions on homosexuality have often been pretty fuzzy in practice
16:16 <Luminifera> hehehe
16:16 <Elara> to the Romans it was only unacceptable to be the receiving partner, that was what slaves were for
16:16 <Luminifera> hand under the thigh and stuff
16:16 <Luminifera> ;)
16:16 <Luminifera> ouch elara :( that sounds horrible actually
16:16 <Luminifera> about the romans
16:16 <Elara> oh, they were
16:16 <Elara> point is that it wasn't about the *sex* of who you were having sex with
16:17 <Elara> it was about the role you were taking on
16:17 <Luminifera> ew
16:17 <Luminifera> ewwww
16:17 <Elara> whereas in some of the Greek states it was an age thing - in some, you went with boys when you were young, then you grew up and married
16:18 <Elara> in others it worked differently
16:18 <Luminifera> yeah.
16:18 <Elara> point is that you have to be specific. "homosexuality is frowned upon" implies that their society would draw the lines around sex and sexuality the way ours does, and that's usually a mistake
16:19 <Luminifera> do you think they...
16:20 <Luminifera> did the deal
16:20 Rhet|sleep → •Rhet|class
16:20 <Olivebirdy> Sure?
16:20 <Elara> seems pretty plausible
16:20 <Olivebirdy> Oh, you mean David and Jonathan?
16:21 <Olivebirdy> Hm.
16:21 <Olivebirdy> David was a very sexual person, and has a history of sexual sins.
16:21 <Elara> I wouldn't stake anything big on it, but it passes the sniff test IMO
16:21 <Olivebirdy> Maybe.
16:22 <Luminifera> omg
16:22 <Elara> anyway, I'm leaving work. hopefully wifi on the train again, but we'll see
16:22 <Elara> o/
16:22 <Luminifera> see ya elara <3
16:22 <Luminifera> omg olive
16:23 <Luminifera> I mean
16:23 <Luminifera> their love for each other was better than love of women
16:23 <Luminifera> and etc
16:23 <Luminifera> I'm gushing here
16:33 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit (b920b3f4@dlp-2F212AF1.mibbit.com) Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client
16:40 <Elara> Gush gush
16:40 <Elara> Hey Rhet get out of class and catch up here, willya? :P
17:05 <Luminifera> hello again elara!
17:05 <Luminifera> I'm home now.
17:16 <Elara> Getting there. It's nice and sunny here
17:23 Rhet|class → •Rhet|sleep
18:54 <Elara> silly Rhet going straight back to sleep after class
18:58 <Luminifera> that's because he went to sleep at 5 am this morning.
18:58 <Luminifera> a very irresponsible persom
19:00 <Elara> silly Rhetbo
19:31 — Luminifera nods
19:31 <Luminifera> Okay, off to read chapters 2 and 3.
20:17 <Elara> done your reading bae? :P
20:22 <Luminifera> on tablet it's freaking impossible :(
20:22 <Luminifera> I did reread my essay though
20:22 <Elara> what was your essay on?
20:22 <Elara> (you can get apps with the bible on for tablet)
20:22 <Luminifera> I don't think it was very good actually. but ehl
20:23 <Luminifera> But I liked that particular site >:
20:23 <Luminifera> individualism
20:23 <Luminifera> in teenagers
20:23 <Luminifera> hahahaha
20:23 <Luminifera> to be frank: an easy theme,
20:23 <Luminifera> theme.*
20:26 <Luminifera> No sorry idep
20:26 <Elara> at least one other person liked it, anyway
20:26 <Luminifera> No sorry. identity? I think it was....
20:26 <Luminifera> I need to see the prompt again to know
20:26 <Luminifera> my mom liked it too
20:26 <Luminifera> I dunno
20:26 <Luminifera> Maybe it's because the theme is so...
20:26 <Luminifera> well it's hard to go wrong
20:27 <Elara> fair enough
20:28 <Elara> Rhetorical it's half past 2 in the afternoon, wake the hell up you lazy bum
20:28 <Luminifera> let him sleep elara
20:28 <Elara> but the more he sleeps now, the more out of cycle he is
20:31 <Elara> but ok fine
21:05 <Luminifera> Yes but that's his problem isn't it?
21:05 <Luminifera> :P
21:49 <Luminifera> I am searching for a very interesting story I read on deviantart years ago but I don't remember the name or the persons name, only the theme ;-; I'm dying
21:50 <Elara> aww what was the genre?
21:54 <Luminifera> Oh my GOD I used to follow her on tumblr but
21:54 <Luminifera> I'm gonna try to find her tumblr
21:55 <Elara> good luck
21:56 <Luminifera> OH GOD IM GONNA CRY
21:56 <Luminifera> she changed her url
21:56 <Luminifera> :(
21:56 <Luminifera> 5:50 PM <Elara> aww what was the genre?
21:57 <Luminifera> was a short story, interesting take on genesis
21:57 <Elara> oooh shiny
22:06 <Luminifera> yeah but I can't find it >__
22:07 <Luminifera> OH GOOD I FOUND HER BLOG
22:14 <Luminifera> IM SO HAPPY
22:14 <Luminifera> I found her dA account!!!!!!
22:14 <Luminifera> I'm a skillful stalker.
22:18 <Luminifera> I'm not finding her thing >_>
22:20 <Luminifera> I FOUND IT
22:20 <Luminifera> http://kortenifree.deviantart.com/art/In-the-Beginning-191058652?q=gallery%3AKorteniFree%2F27880055&qo=51
22:20 <Luminifera> bear with me, this was the taste of the me of 5 years ago
22:20 <Luminifera> so if it sucks, don't blame me
22:36 <Luminifera> "She sat next to me, stretching her pale limbs in the sun. They would never brown like Adam's, but instead stay that fine, pale porcelain."
22:36 <Elara> I want Rhet to read this sheer blasphemy
22:36 <Luminifera> RACIST
22:36 <Luminifera> they need to read it!!!
22:38 <•Rhet|sleep> ...
22:38 <Elara> it's an eeeenteresting retelling of Genesis
22:38 <Elara> YHWH x Satan
22:39 <•Rhet|sleep> :|
22:40 <•Rhet|sleep> I have to get ready to head home
22:40 <Luminifera> hah
22:40 <Luminifera> don't tell your parents!!!!
22:41 <•Rhet|sleep> :P
22:41 <•Rhet|sleep> Apparently David and Jonathan were gay lovers, too?
22:42 <Luminifera> Yes.
22:42 <Luminifera> the bible is permeated with yaoi.
22:42 <Luminifera> now shoo, go get ready.
22:42 — •Rhet|sleep shakes his head in bewilderment
22:42 <Elara> as I told Olive it's not a hill I'd die on, but it's at least plausible
22:43 — Luminifera rolls her eyes
22:43 <Luminifera> I don't really care in the least if they were more than just friends or nit
22:44 <•Rhet|sleep> Y'all are crazy
22:44 <Luminifera> no
22:44 <•Rhet|sleep> Just sayin'
22:44 <Luminifera> You're just too attached to your beliefs
22:44 <Luminifera> :P
22:45 <•Rhet|sleep> I meant generally, but maybe
22:45 <Elara> dunno why I'm crazy, I'm just reading this damn book and trying to make sense of it :P
22:46 <•Rhet|sleep> Mad as a hatter, I say :P
22:46 <Elara> I don't work with mercury you bitch
22:47 <•Rhet|sleep> Is /that/ what that means?
22:47 <•Rhet|sleep> I'd always wondered
22:47 <Luminifera> let me rephrase. maybe you're not that used to questioning things and wondering what really happened, or the whys, or the hows, or the origins of text, or maybe you don't want to shatter your suspension of disbelief, because you've been told all your life that this is the unquestionable truth and it's hard to let go of that kind of mindness
22:48 <•Rhet|sleep> :|
22:48 <Luminifera> hardly your fault as well, most parents don't really raise their kids to question everything they say.
22:48 <Luminifera> besides you're 19.
22:48 <Luminifera> Aren't you supposed to be packing?
22:48 <•Rhet|sleep> Still a baby?
22:49 <Luminifera> No, just young enough to still be rather sheltered
22:49 <Luminifera> I am too
22:49 <Luminifera> if you want to shit on me, I've never had a formal job, and you did, so there's that
22:49 <Elara> no shitting please darlings
22:49 <•Rhet|sleep> Why would I want to put you down?
22:50 <Elara> yeah, hatters used to use a lot of mercury and the fumes can drive you made before they kill you
22:50 <•Rhet|sleep> Huh
22:51 <•Rhet|sleep> TIL
22:51 <•Rhet|sleep> I mean, I knew the mad part
22:51 <Luminifera> ...
22:51 <Luminifera> I thought a hatter was someone who made hats.
22:51 <•Rhet|sleep> Didn't realize hatters used it
22:51 <Elara> go read my rant about ladies and gentlemen on #parahumans Rhet
22:51 <Elara> XD
22:52 <Elara> and yeah they are Lumi, for some reason hatmaking involved a lot of mercury
22:53 <Luminifera> why
22:53 <Elara> *shrug*
22:54 <Luminifera> :P
22:54 <Luminifera> I'm gonna Google it.
22:54 <•Rhet|sleep> Which rant?
22:54 <Elara> apparently it was used to make felt softer
22:55 <•Rhet|sleep> I saw your response on DLP
22:55 <Luminifera> Use of inorganic mercury in the form of mercuric nitrate to treat the fur of small animals for the manufacture of felt hats
22:55 <•Rhet|sleep> Classy af
22:55 <Elara> am I not awesome Rhetbo?
22:56 <•Rhet|sleep> You are
22:56 <•Rhet|sleep> I bow to your supreme awesomeness
22:56 <Elara> I have a much better response from Iztiak now XD
22:56 <•Rhet|sleep> Yup
22:57 <•Rhet|sleep> Turned around pretty hard
22:57 <•Rhet|sleep> Constructive, rather than "it sucks I hate it"
22:58 <Elara> basically I was hoping for that
22:58 <Luminifera> you do???
22:58 <•Rhet|sleep> Mmm
22:58 <Luminifera> I wanna see
22:59 <Elara> https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=30370
22:59 <Luminifera> Alright, I was focused a bit more on criticism than on being constructive because I didn't think you'd read this, so I'll try to be a bit more helpful in this post.
23:00 <•Rhet|sleep> :P
23:00 <Luminifera> that's right sucker
23:00 <Luminifera> treat my girl right!!!
23:03 <Elara> <3 Lumi being protective and stuff :D
23:03 <•Rhet|sleep> <3 so adorable
23:04 <Luminifera> ^-^
23:04 <Luminifera> <3
23:05 <Luminifera> only olive is lacking here. we need a heart from him too.
23:07 Rhet|sleep → •Rhetorical
23:09 <•Rhetorical> So I have a double date with C and Clare this weekend
23:09 <Elara> ...you, C, Clare and who?
23:10 <•Rhetorical> Just we three
23:10 <Elara> how very Mormon :P
23:10 <•Rhetorical> :P
23:10 <•Rhetorical> Nah, just messin' with you
23:10 <•Rhetorical> That would be weird
23:11 <Luminifera> What's Mormon about dates?
23:11 <Luminifera> And yay dates!!!!
23:11 <Luminifera> is she cute??
23:11 <Luminifera> tell us all about her I want pictures
23:11 <•Rhetorical> C no, Clare yes
23:11 <Luminifera> who's c
23:12 <Luminifera> I'm confused. if it's a double date, shouldn't it be 4 people?
23:12 <•Rhetorical> Girl who asked me to date then posted it on the group thingy
23:12 <Luminifera> is c your date? or Clare's date? or you and Clare's chaperone?
23:12 <Luminifera> Oh. she actually wants to date you?
23:12 <Luminifera> lol
23:12 <•Rhetorical> Was a joke, Lumi
23:12 <Luminifera> give us updates on that!!!
23:12 <•Rhetorical> :P
23:13 <•Rhetorical> C did ask me out on a date for reals
23:13 <Luminifera> ohhhh
23:13 <•Rhetorical> I said no
23:13 <Luminifera> cool!
23:13 <Luminifera> Oh not cool
23:13 <Luminifera> Why?
23:13 <•Rhetorical> 'cause I'm not interested in her
23:14 <Luminifera> But now you're gonna date her anyway?
23:14 <Luminifera> I'm confused
23:14 <•Rhetorical> No
23:14 <•Rhetorical> I was joking
23:15 <Luminifera> Uh?
23:15 <Luminifera> ohhh.
23:15 <•Rhetorical> :|
23:15 <Elara> Mormon because one boy and two girls :P
23:15 <Luminifera> you don't have a date this weekend, then
23:15 <Luminifera> What is so religious about polygamy?
23:15 <•Rhetorical> I'm teaching a dance lesson this weekend
23:16 <Luminifera> well I didn't know that...
23:16 <Luminifera> sorry. I ruined your joke.
23:16 — •Rhetorical hugs Lumi
23:16 <Luminifera> I keep doing that.
23:16 <•Rhetorical> I'll forgive you
23:16 <Luminifera> It's okay no need for pity-hugs
23:16 <Luminifera> :P
23:16 <Elara> haaang on
23:16 — Elara looks at chat
23:16 <•Rhetorical> Yeah
23:17 <•Rhetorical> Ritic
23:17 — Elara runs away
23:17 <Luminifera> What's going on elara?
23:17 <•Rhetorical> Is EV
23:17 <Luminifera> Why are you running awat
23:17 <Luminifera> what
23:17 <Luminifera> do you mean they're literally the same person?
23:17 <Luminifera> I'm super confused now
23:17 <•Rhetorical> EV handed his laptop to Ritic
23:17 <Luminifera> oh
23:17 <Luminifera> now it makes sense
23:18 <Luminifera> Jesus fuck my heart stopped beating for a moment
23:18 <Elara> I looked at this chan
23:18 <•Rhetorical> Heh
23:18 <Elara> and went ooh look, Mormon date
23:18 <Elara> I don't want to Mormon date Rhet :P
23:18 <Luminifera> Wait. is Ritic Mormon-dating ev?
23:18 <•Rhetorical> Don't want to /Mornmon/ date, eh?
23:18 <Luminifera> But rhet didn't ask to move on date you
23:19 <•Rhetorical> *Mormon
23:19 — Luminifera shakes her head
23:19 — •Rhetorical winks at Elara
23:19 <Luminifera> You're both very confusing and weird. I don't understand anything you're saying.
23:19 <Luminifera> this is distressing to me.
23:19 <Luminifera> :/
23:19 — •Rhetorical winks at Lumi, too
23:20 — Luminifera is winked at
23:20 <Luminifera> nice.
23:20 <•Rhetorical> I really should get ready to go
23:20 <•Rhetorical> Toodles
23:20 <•Rhetorical> o/
23:20 <Luminifera> see ya
23:20 <Elara> o/
23:22 Rhetorical → •Rhet|away
00:53 Rhet|away → •Rhet|vroom
01:43 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


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10:53 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


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14:19 <Luminifera> um...
14:19 <Luminifera> zombie banned me from the parahumans chat???
14:19 <Luminifera> I don't understand. what happened?
16:24 <Elara> *shrug* I have no idea, but Glernaj just unbanned you
18:21 ↔ Olivebirdy popped in



01:23 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


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09:33 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


18:00 → Elara joined  ↔ Olivebirdy (was OliveB) nipped out  •  Channel mode: +sntr








23:43 ⇐ You disconnected: Connection closed for inactivity


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13:26 Elara → Elara|Errand
14:25 Elara|Errand → Elara
17:02 → Olivebirdy joined (Olivebirdy@dlp-CD06D281.bb.netvision.net.il)
19:05 <Elara> well everybody else is here
19:05 <Elara> where's Rhet? :P
19:16 <Olivebirdy> He is with us in spirit :P
19:22 <Olivebirdy> So there's Mary Magdalene, about to be stoned to death and Jesus walks out in front of her and says 'He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her'. So the crowd all starts dropping their rocks and turning away when suddenly this huge boulder sails through the air from behind Jesus, clips Magdalene (knocking her out) and stops only centimetres from Jesus himself - he then spins around and in an outraged
19:22 <Olivebirdy> voice says, 'Mother!'
19:22 <Elara> hahaha nice
19:24 <Olivebirdy> I found it amusing :)
19:26 <Elara> it's like the sign "Abstinence: 99.9999% effective"
19:27 <Olivebirdy> ahahaha
19:27 <Olivebirdy> oh, that's beautiful
19:42 <Luminifera> I don't understand?
19:43 <Luminifera> Jesus's mom threw the stone?
19:43 <Luminifera> why?
19:46 <Olivebirdy> Because she was without sin, i.e. sex.
19:46 <Olivebirdy> Immaculate conception.
19:48 <Elara> ^^
19:48 <Elara> Just so
19:48 <Olivebirdy> Mary was against mess, you see.
19:49 <Olivebirdy> Everything had to be cleeeean.
19:49 <Luminifera> ah
19:49 <Luminifera> sex is sin etc
19:49 <Luminifera> I forgot
19:49 <Luminifera> :P
19:49 <Olivebirdy> Gosh yes.
19:50 <Olivebirdy> Despite the fact that the first commandment was 'Be fruitful and multiply'.
19:50 <Luminifera> hahahahah
19:51 <Luminifera> be fruitful and multiply... WITHOUT SEX OKAY!!! SEX IS DIRTY
19:51 <Luminifera> you're free to multiply by mitosis though
19:52 <Olivebirdy> Hehe
20:20 ↔ OliveB popped in  ↔ Olivebirdy nipped out





21:19 — Elara yawns
21:19 <Elara> sleeeepy
21:23 <Olivebirdy> Goto sleep
21:23 <Olivebirdy> Shoo
21:23 <Elara> bu-bu-but Dr Who
21:30 <Olivebirdy> Watch it on your laptop?
21:30 <Elara> I am
21:30 <Elara> I'ma go to bed
21:30 <Elara> once I've finished
21:31 <Olivebirdy> ;)
21:31 <Olivebirdy> How was dinner?
21:32 <Elara> not bad. nice and simple
21:33 — Olivebirdy nods gravely.
21:36 — Elara pokes Luminifera
21:37 <Olivebirdy> I believe she is napping.
21:40 <Elara> ah
21:40 <Elara> my phone wasn't sending stuff to her
21:41 — Olivebirdy pokes Elara
21:41 — Elara pokes Olive
21:41 <Elara> halfway through the episode
21:42 <Olivebirdy> Good, hang on, Elara!
21:42 <Olivebirdy> you can do it!
21:44 <Elara> I love love love that they've got someone signing in a position of power on Dr Who
21:45 <Elara> so everyone else has to wait for it to be interpreted
21:48 <Olivebirdy> I don't know what you are talking about.
21:49 <Elara> so in Dr Who, it's a base under siege
21:50 <Elara> there's a bunch of people in an undersea base, being picked off one by one
21:50 <Olivebirdy> Ok.
21:51 <Elara> and one of them, in charge, is deaf or mute, not sure which, so she's signing to be understood
21:51 <Olivebirdy> Ohhh
21:53 <Elara> makee sense now?
22:04 <Olivebirdy> yes
22:04 <Olivebirdy> go to sleep
22:04 <Olivebirdy> :|
22:05 <Elara> do you want me to kick you from #para Olive? cos I can do that, you cheeky bitch :P
22:13 — Olivebirdy fearfully sticks out his tongue and goes nya nya at Elara.
22:13 <Elara> juuust got a wee bit of admin to do
22:14 <Olivebirdy> Alright. But seriously, you were pretty tired today, best if you are less tired tomorrow.
22:15 <Elara> ayup
22:15 <Elara> I'm crashin' out before 11, and starting later than usual
22:18 <Olivebirdy> isn't it 11:17 by you?
22:18 <Elara> nope, 20 past 10
22:18 <Elara> you're thinkin' European time
22:20 <Olivebirdy> Ah.
22:20 <Olivebirdy> I'm two hour past you.
22:21 <Elara> only 2 hours? huh
22:22 <Olivebirdy> yep
22:23 <Olivebirdy> I'm not very far from greece
22:24 <Luminifera> nya nya
22:24 <Luminifera> omfg
22:24 <Elara> omfg wut?
22:25 <Olivebirdy> No, not that type of nya nya!
22:25 <Olivebirdy> hahaha
22:27 — Luminifera thinks of nyan cat
22:28 <Elara> right, I'm off to bed
03:50 ⇐ Olivebirdy and Luminifera quit



10:52 Elara → Elarxhausted
10:57 → Luminifera and Olivebirdy joined



12:11 <Luminifera> we're the worst bible readers
12:11 <Luminifera> just for the record
12:11 <Luminifera> xD
12:13 <Elarxhausted> \o/
12:14 <Luminifera> Lately I've been stupidly lazy to read anything. haha
12:15 <Luminifera> I manage twig because it's just a chapter here and there.
12:15 <Elarxhausted> I caught up on Twig
12:18 <Olivebirdy> I'm not caught u.
12:19 <Olivebirdy> I need to read the latest chappie
12:20 <Luminifera> same olive
12:21 <Elarxhausted> Oh, I haven't read this morning's
12:21 <Olivebirdy> :)
12:22 <Elarxhausted> I caught up from late in arc 5 tho
12:24 Elarxhausted → Elara
12:25 <Luminifera> hehehe
12:26 <Elara> so I was ~5 weeks behind
12:29 <Luminifera> exactly
12:30 <Elara> it's good. I don't see where it's going, but it's good
13:28 <Luminifera> same haha
13:28 <Luminifera> I miss genevieve
13:28 <Luminifera> I wanna see what she's up to
13:28 <Elara> Fray, yes
13:28 <Elara> I'm sure she'll come back up
13:31 <Luminifera> :D
13:31 <Luminifera> me too
13:31 <Luminifera> I don't want any of the lambs to die :(
13:32 <Luminifera> I was thinking Gordon for sure, you know, to die first
13:32 <Luminifera> now I'm not sure. maybe it'll be Jamie.
13:32 <Luminifera> Mary I was thinking maybe second but now I don't think so
13:32 <Elara> I don't know what to say, Luminifera darling. any one of them could have a bad day at any moment
13:32 <Luminifera> yeah :(
13:33 <Elara> the life of a Lamb is a dangerous one
13:34 <Luminifera> hehehe
13:35 <Luminifera> lamb to the slaughter
13:35 <Luminifera> I get a bad feeling from this
13:37 <Elara> blood, fire and death
13:44 <Luminifera> dead targaryens
13:44 <Luminifera> also Maggie Holt
13:44 <Elara> 's ok, Targs don't really deserve to live
13:44 <Elara> Team Smallfolk, yo
13:56 <Luminifera> yes!!!!!!1
13:56 <Luminifera> team smallfolk
13:56 <Elara> I read Race For The Iron Throne. is nerdy goodness :)
13:57 <Luminifera> what is that? :D
13:58 <Elara> blog by a professional historian analysing ASOIAF, trying to figure out exactly what's going on, and what could have happened differently
13:58 <Elara> as well as talking about the historical parallels and so on
14:02 <Luminifera> aaaaa
14:02 <Luminifera> nice
14:06 <Elara> he's pretty good :)
18:09 ↔ Olivebirdy (was OliveB) nipped out




21:04 <Elara> pinging Rhllogs
21:04 <Elara> are you aliiiiive?
21:06 <Olivebirdy> mooooaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn
21:07 ⇐ Olivebirdy quit (Olivebirdy@dlp-DB5D0DEB.bb.netvision.net.il) Quit: Leaving
21:10 <Luminifera> he's having an exam
21:11 <Elara> is he indeed? hmm
21:12 <Luminifera> 3:19 PM <Rhetorical> I have a test in an hour
21:12 <Luminifera> this was... roughly two hours ago
21:13 <Elara> kick him to say hi to us after, eh Lumi?
21:13 <Elara> he's your wife, after all
21:19 <Luminifera> I think he's done?
21:19 <Luminifera> unless he's allowed to use his phone during an exam
21:20 <Elara> seems unlikely
21:27 <Luminifera> hehe
21:40 You invited Rhetorical to join #BookRead
21:40 → •Rhetorical (promoted to owner, opped) joined




21:40 <Elara> it's aliiiive
21:41 <•Rhetorical> For now
21:42 <Elara> how are you bae?
21:44 Connection closed unexpectedly


21:49 → Elara joined (sid116280@9FBB2562:937B8609:3D2F3545:IP)
21:49 Channel mode set to +ntr by ChanServ
21:49 ChanServ set the topic: We read book
21:49 → Luminifera, •Rhllogs (promoted to owner, opped) and •Rhetorical (promoted to owner, opped) joined  •  mode: Elara (de-opped)  •  Channel mode: +ntr














00:20 ⇐ •Rhetorical, •Rhllogs and Luminifera quit