00:21:38: <tits> I decided to make Akai theocratic and have the Lazins be outright worshiped now
00:29:17: <tits> Quiet day
00:35:45: <Estoni> They are all off being tricked into accepting a Gentry onto their thrones
00:37:20: <Lyn> Estoni shall one day fall into the fold too
00:37:40: <tits> heh
00:37:44: <Estoni> Better dead than black and white
00:38:10: <Lyn> Doesn't have the same ring, Estoni
00:38:45: <Estoni> It has the sentiment though
00:39:38: <tits> Even the Republics in the world shall know the Gentrys as their rulers
00:41:02: Estoni gets the assassination squads ready to take out all exiled Eesti nobles
00:41:33: <Lyn> Good luck getting through customs
00:42:25: <Estoni> Implying I don't have hit squads in place world wide, living normal lives as imperialist swine just awaiting the death orders
00:43:27: Estoni looks at the budget and realises he can afford one operative living as a homeless beggar
00:52:56: <Estoni> See now the puppet master is going under an assumed name
01:13:15: <tits> wb Latin
01:13:22: <Latin> ty
01:16:35: <Lyn> Hi Latin
01:16:53: <Latin> howdy
01:17:07: <Latin> I miss anything interesting?
01:17:20: <Lyn> Nothing at all
01:17:24: <Lyn> Except Malay
01:17:30: <Latin> darn
01:21:52: <tits> Yep
01:22:04: <tits> We missed the reunion of the SBC club again
01:22:17: <Latin> lol
01:35:16: <tits> Hey there New_Edom
01:35:20: <tits> How are you doing?
01:35:44: <New_Edom> I'm okay been really busy last two weeks. How are you?
01:37:28: <tits> At this moment, not feeling too well. Aside from that busy in irl to a fair degree.
01:39:24: <tits> I am going to try and practice in Arth's new thread
01:40:09: <tits> Also New_Edom I have been meaning to ask why Feminia was able to get into the region without going through the application process. It just seemed unusual.
01:44:37: <New_Edom> It was a special exception.
01:45:04: <New_Edom> They came in with a specific purpose: being conquered by me. It's now my conquered territory.
01:47:09: <tits> ah
01:54:19: <Ghant> Hey, about to step out for dinner. I'll be back
01:57:50: <tits> wb Edom
01:57:54: <tits> https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=411068
02:05:41: <tits> Also New_Edom there should be one more post in BTIC
02:06:07: <tits> Before it opens or VOA is restarted
02:07:52: <tits> http://iiwiki.com/wiki/Lazin#Family
02:08:14: <New_Edom> okay how come?
02:08:32: <tits> It is coming to a close what we wanted to RP
02:08:41: <New_Edom> btw, I read that, very good post from Arthurista
02:09:56: <tits> Good
02:10:16: <tits> We have planned an incident to occur there
02:10:22: <New_Edom> excellent
02:11:28: <tits> But yes, me and Riet plan to finish off the last post in a doc there
02:11:45: <New_Edom> good
02:12:14: <tits> I have been reworking my plans somewhat the eventual re-ignition of the crisis
02:12:46: <New_Edom> sounds good Tits
02:13:28: <tits> indeed
02:14:04: <HitandRyan> one question I have is how things are going to resume from VOA
02:14:20: <HitandRyan> I had assumed that because riet disappeared that our activities with the CPO had been retconned
02:14:31: <HitandRyan> but ghant told me that apparently that wasn't the case
02:15:02: <tits> It was not the case
02:15:10: <tits> The thread was not retconned
02:15:14: <tits> Just unresolved
02:15:32: <HitandRyan> so my troops have been hanging out on those LHDs just offshore for a year?
02:15:34: <tits> BTIC my thread with Riet a sort of sequal
02:15:40: <HitandRyan> man, those boats must stink by now
02:15:49: <tits> No we are going to resume immediately from when we left off ICly
02:15:53: <tits> Date wise
02:16:02: <tits> So March 2016 iirc
02:16:08: <Lyn> Before BW?
02:16:16: <Lyn> Before the "crash"
02:16:27: <HitandRyan> so I'll have to RP with my old government officials?
02:16:32: <tits> Yes
02:16:33: <tits> Yes
02:16:35: <tits> Yes
02:16:50: <New_Edom> bah I don' tlike that. It's complicated.
02:17:05: <Lyn> It didn't seem that way when Ghant talked about it
02:17:07: <HitandRyan> I'm not crazy about it either
02:17:35: <HitandRyan> no recent events would have changed the course of what's happening in Riet
02:17:39: <New_Edom> I'd like to hear from Riet about it, but I hate writing that retrospective stuff except as footnotes.
02:17:45: <HitandRyan> I say it should instead be moved forward to the present
02:17:49: <HitandRyan> May 2017
02:17:56: <New_Edom> I agree. Far easier.
02:18:00: <tits> That is not what is happening with him
02:18:09: <New_Edom> what is happening with whom?
02:18:21: <tits> We are resuming from after Starl escalates things the day after Hulang's visit
02:18:22: <tits> Riet
02:18:35: <HitandRyan> not seeing the issue
02:18:39: <tits> There is another plotline going on also which will occur after this iirc
02:18:43: <HitandRyan> say Hulang's visit takes place in May 2017
02:18:49: <tits> No it doesn't
02:18:55: <HitandRyan> wait, after when?
02:19:00: <tits> It chronologically takes place March 2016
02:19:08: <tits> During the original crisis
02:19:08: <HitandRyan> how can you write a plotline that occurs after this if you don't know the outcome?
02:19:59: <tits> I haven't touched it ICly for that reason and have only referred to it in an unclear manner for that reason.
02:20:33: <tits> It depicts for example the arrival of the ultimatum
02:21:04: <tits> Just having a year long time skip does not make sense ICly especially given the huge tensions
02:21:34: <Lyn> But the thing is that time moves forward
02:21:44: <Lyn> Many developments happen within a year
02:22:00: <tits> Exactly
02:22:00: <HitandRyan> I'm not saying have a yearlong time skip
02:22:15: <Lyn> There would have to be a lot of retconning, changing things to make everything fit if the was should happen then
02:22:21: <HitandRyan> I'm saying to move the original crisis up to the present day
02:22:24: <Lyn> Things that are a bother to a lot of people
02:22:39: <HitandRyan> no other regional events have taken place which would have influenced events in Riet in any way
02:22:48: <tits> That would not be to my favor
02:22:51: <HitandRyan> it's a closed-off, communist hellhole
02:22:55: <HitandRyan> why?
02:23:15: <tits> I have a tight chronology and some of the events that have happened there had ripple effects on my characters.
02:23:24: <HitandRyan> I highly doubt that
02:23:25: <tits> As well as also the trade and military bases
02:23:42: <tits> I am the writer of the characters, I know them better than yourself.
02:24:03: <New_Edom> a tight chronology of events.
02:24:07: <New_Edom> which you haven't written yet.
02:24:16: <HitandRyan> what happened in Riet that *had* to have happened in March 2016, specifically when this crisis happened?
02:24:38: <tits> I have written these events however.
02:24:45: <HitandRyan> which events, specifically?
02:24:56: <tits> The events of the visit to Rietumimark
02:25:19: <New_Edom> how long did these events transpire over?
02:25:24: <tits> A day and a bit
02:25:26: <HitandRyan> that visit didn't require the stuff in South Deweden to have taken place
02:25:46: <New_Edom> so what is this 'tight chronology' about then?
02:25:47: <tits> It did actually as the Akai went over there to plan out what they planned to do
02:26:02: <HitandRyan> it only took a day
02:26:03: <tits> There is literally a huge post describing how they would react to the crisis
02:26:07: <HitandRyan> it could've happened any time
02:26:12: <tits> It wrecks with canon
02:26:26: <tits> And I must vehemently disagree with this proposal
02:26:36: <HitandRyan> tits you don't lose anything
02:26:40: <tits> And it is unnecessary also
02:27:09: <tits> I do not see why your convenience over rides my own canon
02:27:14: <HitandRyan> what exactly do you lose by having this take place in May 2017 instead of March 2016?
02:27:18: <HitandRyan> be specific
02:28:22: <New_Edom> Jesus H. Christ, Tits, you're really pissing me off by dancing around the subject.
02:29:09: <New_Edom> Don't fuck with us. If you won't explain yourself, you're going to lose my interest altogether. If you're fine with that, go ahead with your chronology. If you want to cooperate and get along, explain yourself more clearly.
02:29:42: <tits> Firstly, Akai could not have had the military bases it needs to react to Arth's RP, they were constructed over 2016 and furthermore the trade has already been mentioned. Secondly, this is one of the first predominantly successful affairs the Ditu, something which has enabled him to assert himself far more strongly in Akai's internal politics. Without this
02:29:54: <tits> he lacks something to move forwards from ICly speaking.
02:30:24: <tits> Furthermore this also messes up Riet's canon and timelines also.
02:30:36: <HitandRyan> wait, so you built military bases in Riet after March 2016?
02:30:42: <tits> As we have further events planned for the future which would have happened as a consequence
02:30:43: <tits> Yes
02:30:49: <tits> I have mentioned them several times
02:30:56: <HitandRyan> so if you set the RP in March 2016, you wouldn't have them
02:30:57: <New_Edom> And you want them to just have been done, without any intervention on anyone's part?
02:31:08: <tits> Yes
02:31:21: <tits> And also yes I guess
02:31:40: <HitandRyan> hmm, I'm calling bullshit on that, no one had a chance to respond
02:31:54: <New_Edom> why wouldn't anyone have intervened?
02:31:58: <HitandRyan> you can't just do things IC without telling anyone and without giving them a chance to intervene
02:32:04: <tits> People were aware
02:32:05: <tits> Fanboy
02:32:07: <tits> Arth
02:32:08: <tits> Riet
02:32:18: <New_Edom> Fanboy and Arth who barely post anything?
02:32:23: <tits> You just weren't paying attention hence the lack of the reaction
02:32:23: <HitandRyan> why wasn't there anything IC?
02:32:27: <tits> There is
02:32:30: <HitandRyan> link?
02:32:31: <tits> You just have not been looking
02:32:36: <HitandRyan> give us a link
02:33:15: <New_Edom> did you tell Ghant?
02:33:42: <HitandRyan> it's also worth noting: how long does it take to construct a military base?
02:33:43: <tits> I assumed he'd be aware of it given he was paying attention to the election campaigns
02:34:01: <HitandRyan> would Akai's bases even be finished by now?
02:34:01: <tits> Depends on the complexity.
02:34:02: <tits> https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=190297&p=30939417&hilit=Durkheim#p30939417
02:34:29: <tits> I know they can be constructed rather quickly
02:34:33: <tits> Within a year
02:34:57: <HitandRyan> where did you post about building them, tits?
02:35:05: <tits> I had not gotten a chance
02:35:06: <HitandRyan> this is one of fanboy's news articles
02:35:13: <tits> Yes he is referencing them
02:35:20: <tits> I thought that is what you requested
02:35:31: <HitandRyan> no I'm wanting a post from you
02:35:46: <HitandRyan> I want to see one of your posts outlining how and where you built these bases
02:36:13: <New_Edom> Are you talking about this?
02:36:18: <New_Edom> The former Secretary continued to tear into the Federation's foreign policy, calling Grimmeburger "soft on Rietumimark". He said that the renewed close ties between Akai and the Rietumish is "an unpalatable threat." He went on to talk about the changes he would make as President. "We will have to be much tougher on them," he said. "Sanctions, perhaps even embargoes... we'll have to make sure
02:36:18: <New_Edom> they cannot challenge our sovereignty, on land or at sea. They will need to fear our military," he declared to the crowd.
02:37:08: <tits> http://mibpaste.com/ZCIrWc from this post https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=30324175#p30324175
02:37:15: <tits> This is when the plans were outlined
02:37:31: <tits> And yes Edom
02:37:40: <tits> That is what Durkheim was talking about
02:37:42: <New_Edom> That contains no information on bases, Tits.
02:37:45: <HitandRyan> this is a speech, tits
02:37:54: <HitandRyan> edom beat me to it
02:38:12: <tits> It was not explicitly mentioned but when talking to Fanboy about it this is what he was talking about
02:38:17: <New_Edom> that other thing you posted is a plan, not operations described
02:38:44: <New_Edom> So no, it didn't happen, it's not canon unless you post in some place or get agreement as general consensus that something happened. That's how this region works.
02:38:52: <tits> I have never gotten around to directly RPing the bases but I have alluded them
02:39:07: <New_Edom> if it's all like the stuff you offered just now it doesn't count Tits.
02:39:10: <HitandRyan> besides, by saying that you built these bases in Riet AFTER March 2016, you're presupposing the outcome of this new thread
02:39:36: <HitandRyan> so I have to agree with Edom, it doesn't count
02:39:37: <tits> Yes as I doubt that war will occur from this and if it did occur it would be in my favour.
02:39:46: <HitandRyan> that's a godmod
02:39:54: <HitandRyan> you're presupposing what's going to happen
02:39:55: <New_Edom> It is indeed.
02:39:56: <tits> That is frankly the most utter trite I have seen from the both of you
02:40:19: <HitandRyan> you don't get to decide before the thread has even started that there will be a war which you win
02:40:21: <New_Edom> I suggest if you dislike it so much that you explain it in an OOC thread in the regional forum and invite everyone to read it.
02:40:32: <New_Edom> However that's how I'm ruling on it.
02:40:43: <HitandRyan> there is one other choice, Tits
02:40:44: <New_Edom> Now what you could do which would be interesting is do one of two things.
02:40:47: <tits> I have been working on this and alluding to for a substantial amount of time however have not been able to go onto detail onto it due to this
02:40:55: <tits> Both me and Riet know the bases are there
02:40:58: <tits> As does Fanboy
02:40:58: <New_Edom> That's because you didn't do it properly
02:41:02: <tits> As does Demphor
02:41:05: <tits> As does Arth
02:41:10: <tits> They are acknowledged
02:41:20: <HitandRyan> if it ain't writ, it ain't shit
02:41:24: <New_Edom> Really? you're going to get in a pissing contest with me about this?
02:41:32: <tits> but it is written about this
02:41:35: <HitandRyan> Edom, what are your suggestions?
02:41:47: <New_Edom> I'm about to but i want something made really clear
02:41:48: <tits> This is absurd.
02:42:14: <tits> You are retconning something that has been agreed upon by those who it effects due to your ignorance on its existence
02:42:30: <tits> Something which is frankly poor conduct
02:42:38: <tits> I will not budge on this
02:42:42: <New_Edom> Tits, I would like you to write that OOC thread. Explain yourself, explain your reasons, let your friends you mentioned above chime in. Maybe they'll make more sense than you do.
02:42:48: <New_Edom> Will you do that?
02:43:14: <tits> If I have the time yes. But I do feel I have been exactly clear in what I have said.
02:43:24: <New_Edom> If you do not do it I will suspend you from the region.
02:43:25: <HitandRyan> then you misunderstand yourself
02:43:37: <tits> Where is there any ambiguity? I shall clarify
02:43:38: <New_Edom> That's your only choice right now.
02:44:03: <New_Edom> We explained the ambiguity. Now I would like you to put up an OOC thread explaining your plans. Do it with the links you mentioned before.
02:44:09: <New_Edom> And then link it to the RMB.
02:44:42: <tits> I have answered every question posed.
02:44:51: <New_Edom> Yes or no?
02:44:54: <tits> But yes I shall do this in detail
02:44:58: <New_Edom> Good.
02:45:17: <New_Edom> I don't want to discuss this any further tonight unless Arthurista, Demphor or Fanboy are around.
02:45:24: <tits> I have also referenced the trade from this also
02:45:55: <HitandRyan> I think one more thing needs to be made clear here, if you'll allow me Edom: saying that something will be done is different from actually doing it
02:46:18: <New_Edom> sure
02:46:48: <HitandRyan> I hope that will clear up any confusion on this sort of thing in the future
02:47:20: <New_Edom> Of course it's different. It's the difference between saying "I'm going to buy that car" and actually buying it.
02:47:25: <HitandRyan> I'm not saying you need to write 30 pages worth of posts about surveying the base site, but there has to be /something/
02:48:03: <tits> So I actually have to depict the exact construction of the base?
02:48:17: <HitandRyan> I just said, you don't have to go into exacting detail
02:48:39: <New_Edom> No. But you do have to declare that a decision has actually been made, and it has to be done in a way that is unmistakable.
02:49:07: <New_Edom> Second, you have to at least talk about the stages of construction, even if it's mentioned CLEARLY by other people.
02:50:17: <New_Edom> Like finding the sites, beginning construction, etc. If these are naval bases, you have to declare what's there at the start. Are they taking over old bases and building them up a bit, or are they turning existing ports into naval bases? Are they building from scratch? etc etc.
02:50:50: <Estoni> So how far does this policy of if it's not written it hasn't happened extend? I have recently rebuilt the Lazar I Rail Bridge which will improve trade between my capital and Rietumimark by a few percentage points, but it is not written down anywhere so does it exist?
02:50:52: <New_Edom> This makes it possible for other players to find out about it and react to it. Without that possibility, its a godmod. And of course the other players have to find out reasonably--they can't just godmod intelligence. So they'd have to have some reasonable way to find out about what's going on.
02:51:11: <New_Edom> No. It has to be written down
02:51:11: <HitandRyan> I would make a news article to be safe, estoni
02:51:14: <HitandRyan> that should suffice
02:51:39: <HitandRyan> besides we always enjoy your communist propaganda
02:51:41: <New_Edom> I mean that's something where as Ryan said, a news article would suffice; it's a neighboring country friendly to yours, it's a normal thing, so a news article would be fine with me too.
02:52:24: <Estoni> It's not propaganda Ryan, it's a real bridge with at least 20% real concrete
02:52:39: <New_Edom> does it use Chrysotile in the concrete?
02:53:07: <Estoni> Mainly papier mache
02:53:34: <New_Edom> lol
02:54:37: <HitandRyan> lol
02:55:15: <Estoni> See it's summer now so no rains to wash it away, and when the winter comes we know the saboteurs were from Ghant
02:55:27: <HitandRyan> so, for an uncontroversial issue a news article will suffice
02:56:02: <HitandRyan> for a major decision such as an expanded military presence in a new part of the region, there has to be more detail and a chance for others to respond meaningfully
03:08:00: <New_Edom> Estoni, you can post in Chaco's thread again now.
03:38:56: <tits> hmm
03:39:09: <tits> I have posted New_Edom
03:41:08: <New_Edom> Wow.
03:41:14: <New_Edom> So less an explanation than a justification.
03:41:58: <tits> I said I explained in full my exact reasons here.
03:42:04: <tits> Now it is more formalised there.
03:42:48: <New_Edom> Uh huh.
03:43:31: <New_Edom> What is godmodding exactly, Tits?
03:43:34: <tits> Anyways I tged it to Riet, Fanboy and Demhpor
03:44:42: <tits> To me it is doing something which screws over another RPer without their consent and is handled unrealistically.
03:45:16: <HitandRyan> it is more specific than that
03:46:22: <HitandRyan> godmodding is when you either directly or indirectly play another player's nation
03:46:41: <tits> I am doing neither here.
03:46:49: <HitandRyan> that's where you're wrong
03:46:59: <tits> I have everyone's consent in the nearby area
03:47:25: <HitandRyan> by assuming that no other nation responds to your bases, you are effectively saying what our nations are doing
03:47:41: <New_Edom> If you're going to take this attitude, then you can play in your own little sandbox, Tits. I'm going to wash my hands of you completely.
03:47:45: <tits> The thing is there already has been some degree of a response
03:48:05: <tits> This seems a fantastically petty issue to do such a thing over Edom
03:48:11: <tits> Anyways
03:48:19: <tits> Let it be handled in that thread
03:48:24: <New_Edom> You should know me well enough to know that there is no matter too small for me to react strongly to.
03:49:32: <HitandRyan> I'm going to suggest something: have these bases negotiated before the thing happens in South Deweden
03:49:38: <tits> The thing is Edom, I think you would not have had this reaction had you known about it when it was conceived and iirc I did tell you.
03:49:39: <HitandRyan> what's the difference?
03:49:43: <tits> Messes up the timeline
03:49:50: <tits> It was proposed as a reaction to the coalition
03:49:52: <New_Edom> yeah the timeline.
03:49:57: <HitandRyan> who gives a shit?
03:49:59: <tits> I do
03:50:01: <HitandRyan> come up with something else
03:50:01: <tits> Clearly
03:50:46: <tits> You can't dismiss a reason because you do not care for it. You have not offered a good counterargument against that other than it is convenient.
03:50:57: <New_Edom> Excuse me?
03:51:19: <Lyn> I believe that was meant for Ryan?
03:51:20: <New_Edom> Alright, I'm going to suggest something. Let's take this to google chat. Maybe actually hearing my voice will actually make sense to you. If you like.
03:51:29: <Lyn> 21:29	HitandRyan	who gives a shit?
03:51:39: <tits> That as not meant for you Edom
03:51:42: <Lyn> Very uncalled for imo from the bloody chat moderator
03:51:47: <tits> But Ryan
03:52:11: <HitandRyan> yeah sure lyn
03:52:22: <HitandRyan> I think Edom's suggestion is a good one
03:52:22: <tits> Also I cannot engage in a google chat right now, it is late and I would disturb people who are sleeping nearby if I did.
03:52:24: <Lyn> The dismissive attitude if lovely, Ryan thanks
03:53:19: <New_Edom> You guys are totally not getting it.
03:53:29: <New_Edom> I'm going to offer one last effort at explanation, then I'll let the thread do its work.
03:53:44: <Lyn> You guys?
03:53:54: <New_Edom> just let me explain it
03:53:58: <Lyn> I step in to ask for toning down hostilities and you think I'm taking Tits side?
03:54:00: <tits> Please do. I am listening.
03:54:03: New_Edom sighs.
03:54:04: <Lyn> I'm just asking for you two to be civil
03:54:42: <New_Edom> 1. I have never ever ever minded discussing possibilities, compromises or ideas with players. I tried to do that tonight with Tits. I am not simply dismissing his concerns.
03:54:55: <New_Edom> 2. However I think he's altogether dismissing mine and Ryan's, and that's why we're getting annoyed.
03:55:29: <New_Edom> 3. The concerns we have are what we MIGHT have done about naval bases being built. Naval bases are a hell of a lot different from building a railroad between two friendly nations. It's force projection that can affect the region.
03:56:09: <New_Edom> 4. When we asked Tits for evidence that he had made his activity clear, he said it was in the news. It is NOT clear that naval bases are being built according to the news posts. It alludes to actions which if we are taking it from written material is the diplomacy being conducted.
03:57:00: <New_Edom> 5. What I want from this is for people to be able to roleplay without it being a huge chore and a headache. Riet and Tits are insisting on that from us by basically saying "If you want to write in our thread, you have to write as if you are retconning all activity up to now."
03:57:37: <HitandRyan> although we haven't heard from Riet
03:57:53: <New_Edom> 6. When I try to explain how things in the region work, it is not whim. I am actually furious that Tits is describing it that way.
03:59:03: <New_Edom> 7. What I'd prefer is discussion and compromise. Tits has refused to do that.
04:02:45: <tits> And that is quite helpful Edom, thank you.
04:02:56: <HitandRyan> and I want to make this clear as well: I believe this thread that arth has started is a good idea
04:03:03: <HitandRyan> I want it to work
04:03:07: <New_Edom> I do too.
04:03:13: <HitandRyan> that is why I have these concerns
04:03:40: <HitandRyan> I want to make sure it works for everyone and people can get into it
04:04:39: <HitandRyan> I'm also not saying this just to take tits' bases away, if anything I want tits to have his bases, it'll be more interesting that way for everybody
04:04:55: <HitandRyan> but if he has them, it has to have been done properly
04:05:03: <tits> New_Edom would it be fair to say this slipped under your radar?
04:05:22: <New_Edom> No. Because i read Fanboy's news posts and even talked to him about them and said they were very good.
04:05:23: <Lyn> OoC radar or IC rader?
04:05:30: <tits> OOC
04:05:44: <New_Edom> OOCly when did you tell me that you had plans to build naval bases in Rietumimark?
04:06:17: <Lyn> I thought they were in the Tempesta?
04:06:26: <Lyn> Artificial islands or something?
04:06:28: <tits> these are different
04:06:32: <Lyn> Oh
04:06:56: <tits> I have brought it up quite a few times when on the IIRC. I assumed you were aware of them given that I showed you the post where they were proposed and have mentioned it on the IRC a few times
04:06:59: <tits> WB Ghant
04:07:06: <Ghant> Back from din
04:07:08: <Ghant> reading the log
04:07:52: <New_Edom> you brought up that you were thinking of building bases, yes, but that's just chatter, Tits.
04:08:27: <New_Edom> For something to be part of canon, you have to either write your stuff in an OOC planning thread or else have it as part of canon established IC.
04:08:31: <Ghant> <@HitandRyan> so my troops have been hanging out on those LHDs just offshore for a year?
04:08:47: <New_Edom> and mine.
04:08:47: <Ghant> No, because a year ICly hasn't passed between when VOA ends and when the next thread begins.
04:08:57: <New_Edom> yeah that's part of the problem here.
04:09:06: <Ghant> Sorry, starting from thte top of the log and working my way down.
04:09:19: <tits> Yeah shall we wait for Ghant to catch up?
04:09:22: <New_Edom> get caught up first please.
04:09:31: <Ghant> x<@HitandRyan> no recent events would have changed the course of what's happening in Riet
04:10:01: <Ghant> That's a good point. I'd be fine with saying that the next thread starts at a certain point in time after VOA, whether it's a year or whatever.
04:10:37: <Ghant> I will respond to PMs after I catch up.
04:10:53: <tits> Ghant didn't your nation pull out from Deweden due to the human rights act?
04:11:03: <tits> Which led you planning a coup?
04:13:14: <Ghant> <New_Edom> did you tell Ghant?
04:13:17: <Ghant> Nope, news to me.
04:13:25: <Ghant> This was all done in a closed thread.
04:14:52: <Ghant> x<Tits> Ghant didn't your nation pull out from Deweden due to the human rights act?
04:15:04: <Ghant> No, it threatened to, but ultimately they just pulled back into Nek.
04:15:08: <Ghant> And are waiting.
04:15:21: <Ghant> Obviously I can't really work anything until the new thread comes up.
04:16:18: <New_Edom> This is my impression: that Tits and Riet had this thread where they were doing diplomacy which took days but they wanted to do in huge detail. We respected that and waited for a year out of character.
04:17:51: <Ghant> I tried joining the skype call, but I guess there isn't one going on atm?
04:18:01: <HitandRyan> there isn't
04:18:09: <Ghant> Here's my main caveat with this whole conversation.
04:18:24: <New_Edom> do you mean caveat or concern?
04:18:28: <Ghant> The Tits / Riet thread was a bout dialogue, discussions and plans, between Hulang and the Ozolins, right?
04:18:34: <Ghant> caveat
04:19:03: <Ghant> Allow me to explain.
04:19:07: <tits> btw I really need to get some sleep soon.
04:19:12: <tits> Just as a heads uo
04:19:29: <New_Edom> yeah
04:19:40: <Ghant> When I first found out about the thread, I said I think it's ok, because this region has a long tradition of bilateral closed threads about diplomacy and making plans.
04:20:52: <Ghant> HOWEVER, the caveat that I had from the getgo was that military things shouldn't be done in it, because then people couldn't respond since it was a closed thread. That included movements of men and weapons, genocide of Dewedeners or the building of bases (or the giving of nooks, but that's another can of worms).
04:21:15: <Ghant> So up until about 15 minutes ago, I wasn't aware of there being bases.
04:21:21: <Ghant> I'm going to say this now.
04:22:01: <Ghant> For there to have been bases built, as a consequence of the Riet / Tits thread, but without any way of responding or countering it, is horseshit, and unfair.
04:22:39: <Ghant> Because I thought the bases would become a thing in the SOD thread (Salvation or Damnation, the unwritten sequel thread to VOA).
04:23:00: <Ghant> And that would become a part of that plot where writers could react to that.
04:23:21: <Ghant> (It's chic to use "writers" in place of "players" isn't it? :P)
04:23:42: <Ghant> (It's chic to use the word "chic")
04:24:00: <tits> Okay that makes sense
04:24:09: <tits> brb
04:24:54: <Ghant> Of course it does. Am I not the voice of reason? :P
04:25:23: <HitandRyan> ...you are?
04:26:06: <Lyn> Always is
04:26:49: Ghant smacks HitandRyan with his wisdom stick
04:27:12: HitandRyan has a higher WIS than Ghant, takes the stick, then slaps Ghant around a bit with a large trout
04:27:42: <New_Edom> we explained pretty much the same thing earlier, several times.
04:27:50: <New_Edom> Anyway let's see if this worked.
04:28:14: <Ghant> Well played sir.
04:31:08: <tits> I got an idea
04:31:23: <Ghant> What's that?
04:32:26: <tits> So then instead of having the bases being completed, we instead incorporate them as a developing plotpoint in Arth's new thread?
04:32:40: <tits> Where reactions to them can be properly RPed?
04:32:47: <Ghant> Yes please.
04:33:08: <Ghant> Since Arth's thread is supposed to be the buildup to the main event / what the NCTO nations have been up to and plan on doing.
04:33:57: <HitandRyan> so you're going to write about the bases being built in arth's thread?
04:34:25: <HitandRyan> which means explaining how they'll be built, where they'll be built, and which forces will be stationed there?
04:37:12: <tits> Yes. Construction would have happened before hand but it would be mostly handled by the Rietumish as general expansion by the, and would allow the revelations to their true purpose to be RPed out. This doesn't disrupt my own canon and it enables you guys to react.
04:38:01: <New_Edom> so according to what you just wrote, the naval bases would already have been built?
04:39:07: <tits> No
04:39:14: <tits> They would be under construction
04:40:30: <New_Edom> that contradicts what you just wrote, you kknow.
04:40:30: <HitandRyan> "Construction would have happened before hand" <-- this is the source of the confusion
04:40:47: <tits> Poor phrasing on my part
04:41:37: <Ghant> Ghant and its allies would know about the bases as soon as ground broke on them.
04:41:42: <Ghant> Olga would tell them about it.
04:42:01: <HitandRyan> I think I know what you mean, maybe a few buildings would be renovated or something, but the military forces have not arrived and actual fortifications are not complete
04:42:12: <tits> ^
04:42:24: <HitandRyan> maybe a building is renovated for barracks, storage, offices
04:42:30: <tits> Also Olga is going to be under very strict surveillance
04:42:54: <New_Edom> if they're naval bases, they need the following: deep water piers with ample dock spaces, barracks, munitions and fuel storage, cranes, elevators, landing pads, connection points for road and rails.
04:43:06: <HitandRyan> but no missile batteries, hangars, airstrips, radars...
04:43:17: <tits> Yes
04:43:22: <tits> She is aware of all of details of the Panacea proposal however
04:43:44: <tits> Should she be able to leak it it then yeah you could know exactly what is planned
04:43:45: <HitandRyan> so that will all take some serious engineering
04:44:08: <HitandRyan> did Riet know where you would build?
04:44:42: <tits> Yeah somewhere on his south. Probably as far away from FAS as humanly possible I imagine.
04:44:52: <HitandRyan> is it an existing port?
04:44:58: <HitandRyan> or naval base?
04:45:33: <tits> Not clear but I'd assume that it would be constructed
04:45:55: <HitandRyan> well, it's up to Riet and he's not here
04:46:19: <HitandRyan> at any rate, building from scratch vs. using existing facilities will change how long it takes before they're up and running
04:46:27: <tits> Indeed.
04:46:45: <HitandRyan> so you guys will want to work that out, and make sure to make mention of it IC so there is a record of it
04:46:49: <tits> I think however from talking with him it would be a new construction.
04:47:05: <New_Edom> Anyway also the idea of having to rp from back in the day is a pain in the ass. and it's not just inconvenient.
04:47:23: <HitandRyan> I think part of the argument tonight was because too much was worked out OOC here on IRC, and there wasn't enough of an IC record to track down
04:47:35: <New_Edom> That's part of it.
04:47:36: <HitandRyan> so I think you need to work on that, tits
04:47:47: <New_Edom> And so it was viewed as canon by Tits but it was the first we'd heard of it.
04:48:11: <HitandRyan> just keep it in mind in the future, all right?
04:48:39: <tits> Yes and I will run the ideas by you when I can
04:49:12: <New_Edom> Alright. I'm going to suggest that you delete that thread then, since you seem more in agreement now and it's not what I wanted anyway
04:49:33: <Ghant> hmm
04:49:41: <tits> Hmm?
04:50:46: <Lyn> Hmmmm
04:51:28: <Ghant> What thread?
04:51:36: <mib_kr8lv6> yeah what thread
04:51:47: <HitandRyan> in the regional forum
04:51:52: <HitandRyan> is that you LRE?
04:52:15: <mib_kr8lv6> rumor has it
04:52:20: <Ghant> What thread is that?
04:52:42: <New_Edom> it's one that I asked Tits to do for OOC discussion but which is now without purpose.
04:52:46: <tits> How do I delete this...
04:52:49: <tits> Hey LRE
04:52:56: <Ghant> Ah ok
04:53:17: <HitandRyan> I suppose you could edit it and remove most of the text
04:53:28: <New_Edom> I'll do it
04:53:30: <Victor> If Lalery needs a place for exile, he can always stay in the Vorindun with his brother-in-law's brother
04:53:31: <Victor> lol
04:53:43: <Victor> given how much Nicanor is now going after him
04:53:45: <New_Edom> he'd love that
04:53:55: <Victor> another purge and the ETC runs things now huh
04:54:07: <HitandRyan> not a done deal yet
04:54:08: <Victor> they lost the war but won the peace
04:54:36: <Victor> fascinating how on the money Roman was about the region
04:54:39: <Victor> lol
04:55:17: <Victor> I like what the paper called him, the last honest man in Free Garza or something lol
04:55:41: <Victor> funny given that the Time is pro-ETC and he basically slammed them
04:55:46: <Victor> Times
04:56:14: <Victor> and he really went after the Shrai and Ghant
04:57:09: <Victor> Titus is tempted to send him a gift basket
04:57:11: <Victor> lol
04:57:17: <tits> I find it amusing that half the criticisms he made could have been attributed to the Lazins but instead he kinda likes them
04:57:25: <Victor> lol
04:57:27: <Ghant> <Victor> If Lalery needs a place for exile, he can always stay in the Vorindun with his brother-in-law's brother
04:57:37: <Ghant> Who is also his tentative step-son
04:57:51: <Ghant> This feels like Kentucky.
04:58:01: <Victor> lmao
04:58:12: <Victor> or my native state of West fucking Virginia lol
04:58:23: <tits> Okay I edited it New_Edom
04:59:10: <Victor> oh and Edom, you're only seeing a small taste of Brdar's brutality
04:59:38: <Victor> Jovan Brdar didn't get to be Camp 11's commandant by being Mr. Nice Guy
04:59:40: <Ghant> <New_Edom> he'd love that
04:59:50: <Victor> same goes for you Ghant
04:59:51: <Ghant> I don't think Alexandra would feel the same way :P
04:59:58: <Victor> he wants Voor intimidated
05:00:03: <Victor> unnerved
05:00:31: <Ghant> That's easier said than done.
05:00:36: <Victor> right now, he thinks that Lord Voor is just some aristocratic dandy without any military background
05:00:41: <Ghant> The Leopard is a hard man.
05:00:52: <New_Edom> who's the Leopard?
05:01:05: <Ghant> That's the sigil of house Voor. The Leopard.
05:02:21: <Victor> Brdar thinks he's just another lily-livered lord
05:02:27: <HitandRyan> is it a snow leopard?
05:02:32: <Victor> and he'll fold at the first sign of actual battle
05:02:41: <tits> By the way New_Edom how tall is Jocasta again? I recall 5'4?
05:03:05: <Victor> btw Edom that silver I figured would be an interesting twist
05:03:13: <Victor> what would the Edomites do if they got their hands on it
05:03:20: <New_Edom> about 5,3
05:03:29: <New_Edom> I have to think about it
05:03:30: <Victor> that's a lot of silver
05:03:48: <tits> ty
05:03:57: <Victor> and now it won't be used to hire mercs after all
05:04:11: <Victor> since the inept Momcilo police aren't guarding it anymore
05:06:57: <tits> I should have some Lazin send Roman a "retirement gift"
05:09:10: <Victor> lol
05:09:21: <Victor> I wonder what Tom would think of that
05:09:23: <Victor> lol
05:09:53: <Victor> Titus btw is very incensed with the Shrai for their hypocrisy about strong militaries
05:10:02: <Victor> and flexing military muscles
05:10:19: <Victor> they'll probably find relations rather frosty for a while
05:10:30: <Victor> and this time they can't blame it on Zattem
05:10:36: <Victor> it's the Mother Empress's fault
05:10:39: <tits> I mean the Akai do outnumber the Shrai last time I checked or something
05:10:52: <Victor> this isn't the way to build a good relationship with the new Augustus
05:11:32: <Victor> maybe a cozier relationship with Akai isn't a bad idea
05:11:33: <Victor> lol
05:12:37: <tits> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAf0QnLFS7Q
05:13:32: <New_Edom> one thought about your post in response to Ghant, LRE
05:13:51: <New_Edom> are these guys used to being shelled? like they're hardened veterans?
05:18:08: <Victor> some of them, but not most
05:18:16: <Victor> some are ex-army
05:18:21: <Victor> most are ex-police
05:18:41: <Victor> the Royal Guard is paramilitary rather than full military
05:18:51: <Ghant> This Brdar guy is one bold mofo.
05:19:09: <Victor> hence why the private suffered shell shock
05:19:19: <Victor> I figured that was realistic
05:19:40: <tits> btw New_Edom I am going to individually respond to you each in SPE to avoid it becoming stale
05:19:41: <Victor> Ghant, he thinks that he's up against an inbred royal idiot
05:19:41: <New_Edom> then I think that they should be a bit shocked by the attack, LRE
05:19:46: <tits> And using big posts to move along
05:19:48: <New_Edom> okay Tits
05:19:50: <Victor> a bit more shock you mean
05:19:55: <Victor> I see
05:19:58: <Victor> that makes sense
05:20:10: <Victor> I might have to adjust things a bit
05:20:26: <Victor> add more cases of shell shock and also more terror and panic
05:20:45: <New_Edom> watch this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCBHtf4hYWQ
05:20:46: <Victor> of course, Brdar is mostly furious that someone would dare to attack his camp
05:20:51: <Victor> especially some idiot baron
05:21:35: <tits> anyways goodnight all
05:21:44: <Victor> night tits
05:21:53: <Victor> we'll do some work in the next day or so
05:21:57: <Victor> on the doc
05:22:33: <New_Edom> night Tits
05:22:42: <Victor> what I really need is a few people shitting their pants
05:22:44: <Victor> actually
05:22:53: <HitandRyan> night
05:23:03: <TitsZZZ> I am glad we got that resolved
05:23:09: <New_Edom> yes me too
05:23:49: <New_Edom> LRE, think of this too: I'm showing a scene of 25 pounders from wWII being 'walked' up to the target. These would be guided by drones and so Ghant's artillery would be hitting at worst very close to their targets indeed.
05:23:58: <HitandRyan> watching a creeping barrage walking its way towards you...that is ten pounds of NOPE in a five pound bag
05:24:04: <New_Edom> yeah
05:24:17: <Victor> ah
05:24:21: <Victor> good to know
05:24:23: <New_Edom> also you need to write about the targets Ghant mentioned
05:24:25: <Victor> that is actually helpful
05:24:34: <Victor> he mentioned specific ones
05:24:39: <New_Edom> like he wasn't just shooting into the compound, he was aiming at particular buildings.
05:24:39: <Victor> hmm I must have missed that
05:24:42: <Victor> ah
05:24:48: <HitandRyan> the blasts would be even bigger than that one, too, doesn't he have 155 mm?
05:24:52: <New_Edom> so up to you what damage was received
05:24:56: <New_Edom> yes he has 155mm howitzers
05:25:14: <Victor> thanks for clarifying that
05:25:17: <New_Edom> like you could say that one or two were duds for instance, or that they fell short of the mark or whatever
05:25:18: <New_Edom> np
05:25:28: <TitsZZZ> Ping me if Shrai appears
05:25:29: <HitandRyan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHUfQX837qc
05:25:32: <New_Edom> or that the target had unimportant goods in it or whatever
05:25:33: <New_Edom> sure
05:39:52: <Victor> I didn't see a section that mentioned precise targets
05:39:53: <Victor> hmm
05:40:11: <Victor> which targets
05:41:17: <New_Edom> Hm. you're right.
05:41:56: <New_Edom> It seems that Lord Voor acknowledged Wendt's ideas but Ghant did not specifically mention them. So that's fair.
05:41:58: <Victor> it did refer to them targeting carefully
05:42:04: <Victor> ah
05:42:43: <Victor> just for fun, I might have the fuel dump hit
05:42:44: <Victor> lol
05:42:51: <New_Edom> why make it a gift?
05:43:09: <Victor> make what a gift
05:43:56: <New_Edom> make a gift of the fuel dump. Why not let it be hitting unimportant targets so ghant can have his artillery commander check their targets?
05:44:02: <Victor> ah
05:44:05: <Victor> good point
05:44:11: <Victor> ah the chapel perhaps
05:44:19: <Victor> and one of the lavatories
05:44:52: <New_Edom> heh
05:45:48: <Victor> talk about a shitty day
05:46:39: <Victor> ironically one of the inmates was being raped in the lavatory, so she used the chance to avoid any more assault
05:47:01: <New_Edom> how unfortunate
05:49:46: <Victor> yes and while I can't be graphic, well, that's just say that she had to spit parts of him out of her mouth
05:49:48: <Victor> lol
05:51:00: <New_Edom> nice
05:51:12: <Victor> lol
05:53:52: <Victor> the greenhouse got hit, too
05:59:52: <Victor> bad new for her in the long run
06:00:03: <Victor> she was executed for "attempting escape"
06:01:10: <Victor> she was executed by exsanguination to make a point
06:03:50: <Victor> hope that you like the amended post
06:04:00: <Victor> I especially had fun having five of them shit their pants
06:04:01: <Victor> lol
06:04:33: <Victor> one can only guess what Lord Voor will make of the catapults hurling private parts at his troops
06:04:49: <New_Edom> cool though he may not even see them
06:04:56: <Victor> true
06:05:18: <Victor> perhaps he should next send the bloodless corpse of the inmate to Lord Voor
06:05:27: <Victor> drained of her life force entirely
06:05:57: <Victor> the man terrorized his camp?
06:06:03: <Victor> he wants to return terror for terror
06:06:09: <Victor> shock and awe for shock and awe
06:06:15: <New_Edom> sure
06:06:30: <Victor> plus he doesn't yet think much of Lord Voor
06:06:39: <Victor> Voor's going to have to prove that he's someone to fear
06:07:06: <Victor> remember, Brdar serves Nadalya Brod
06:07:18: <Victor> she might not be a great war leader, but she knows how to inspire fear
06:08:04: <Victor> oddly enough, I have a perverse bit of fun writing atrocities
06:08:09: <Victor> not sure what that says of me
06:08:19: <Victor> but this is a first
06:08:29: <Victor> I've never had a victim drained entirely of her blood before.
06:08:38: <Victor> It's very Elizabeth Bathory of me.
06:09:32: <Victor> and you will probably get to see Colonel Urban Salai in action soon
06:09:42: <Victor> the man's the most infamous Tsarist officer so far
06:09:55: <Victor> he's the one who had the entire staff of Camp 3 put to death
06:09:59: <Victor> without trial
06:10:34: <Victor> shot in cold blood
06:11:00: <Victor> and the former inmates got to be the executioners
06:22:30: <New_Edom> the entire staff? without trial? How did he get away with that?
06:23:24: <Victor> so far, the North is still in flux
06:23:29: <Victor> Bakic is military governor for now
06:23:41: <Victor> and he hasn't exactly worried about legal niceties
06:23:43: <Victor> so far
06:24:21: <New_Edom> ah. what a jerk.
06:24:26: <Victor> one of those "we're still in a chaotic situation, so let's get revenge before they start enforcing the rules deals"
06:24:30: <Victor> who?
06:25:08: <Victor> as you have probably noticed, Delvians can be shockingly callous at times
06:26:07: <Victor> Bakic will probably be under pressure to crack down on atrocities soon though
06:26:54: <Victor> right now, his attitude about the Royal Guard and those camps that he has taken is "fuck them, they're guilty anyway"
06:27:13: <New_Edom> there's also no way that the catapults are in range of Voor's batteries
06:27:20: <Victor> ah
06:27:24: <Victor> fair enough
06:27:39: <Victor> they probably hit the ground too far away to do anything but gross out Voor's patrols
06:27:45: <Victor> lol
06:28:19: <Victor> also there is a feeling among the Michalek folk that they are due some retribution
06:28:24: <Victor> their state was ravaged
06:28:27: <Victor> plundered
06:28:30: <Victor> occupied
06:28:44: <Victor> Salai being a Michalek man, he really hates the Brods
06:29:35: <Victor> mind you Camp 3 had about 50 guards and 200 inmates
06:29:52: <Victor> so the inmates considerably outnumbered the guards
06:30:07: <Victor> and he also had the corpses incinerated
06:30:40: <Victor> I'm sorta modeling on his conduct on a lot of how the Russians behaved in WW2
06:30:45: <Victor> that kind of thing
06:30:46: <New_Edom> that's a good ratio of guards to inmates really
06:30:50: <Victor> ah
06:30:53: <New_Edom> if you think about it, that's a guard for every four people.
06:30:56: <Victor> true
06:31:05: <New_Edom> also Ghant, what about romain?
06:31:10: <New_Edom> er LRE I mean
06:31:15: <Victor> oh?
06:37:44: <HitandRyan> brb, need to restart
06:38:04: <Victor> what about Romain?
06:38:24: <New_Edom> her movements towards the remaining ground forces
06:39:52: <Victor> ah I was under the impression that she was still holding back for the moment
06:40:06: <Victor> letting the Ghantar deal with the camps for the moment
06:40:41: <Victor> I mean aside from the airborne troops
06:41:42: <Victor> and I don't think that they would have encountered any Delvian troops just yet
06:41:49: <Victor> not in that area
06:42:09: <Victor> so they still have the element of surprise
07:40:51: <tits> back
07:41:40: <New_Edom> hi
07:42:31: <tits> I this place cleared out
07:48:14: <New_Edom> lol
08:04:43: <Shrai> Anyone home?
08:10:46: <Ghant> Shrai
08:10:54: <Ghant> Tits
08:11:19: <New_Edom> Hi Shrai
08:11:27: <Shrai> Hey Edom
08:11:32: <Shrai> How are you faring?
08:14:17: <New_Edom> tired, but okay you?
08:19:28: <Shrai> About the same
08:20:19: <New_Edom> I'm preparing for a course on the refugee Challenge in Canada next month
08:20:46: <Shrai> Oh wow
08:20:52: <Shrai> Summer session?
08:20:55: <New_Edom> yeah
08:21:01: <New_Edom> so it will be kinda intense.
08:21:26: <New_Edom> basically we're studying the means, policies and possibilities that the Canadian government works with. Finally getting into interesting stuff.
08:22:03: <Shrai> It makes me wish that anyone in the U.S. cared enough to even have such a course
08:22:34: <New_Edom> Canada has a good Ministry of Immigration. It has issues of course, bureaucracy being one of them. Changing concerns about refugees being another.
08:23:50: <Shrai> You have a whole Ministry for it? We just have a Bureau
08:24:51: <Shrai> Or something similar
08:25:18: <Shrai> I keep forgetting what happened to it when Bush created the DHS
08:25:40: <New_Edom> yeah we have a Mnistry of Immigration
08:26:41: <Ghant> Super tired, going to sleep. Gnite
08:26:50: <New_Edom> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Immigration,_Refugees_and_Citizenship
08:26:58: <GhantZZZ> zzz
08:27:44: <New_Edom> night Ghant
08:28:02: <Shrai> Night Ghant
08:28:18: <Shrai> And that seems like a good thing to have
08:32:37: <New_Edom> it is. It partners, naturally, with the Ministry of Global Affairs (as Trudeau tiresomely called our External Affairs ministry) and the RCMP to investigate concerns.
08:33:53: <Shrai> Naturally. Our system doesn't give immigration officers quite that much power
08:34:07: <Shrai> Also, I really shouldn't grade this late. Totally just messed up a student's grade.
08:34:12: <Shrai> They'll have questions, I'm sure
08:34:13: <New_Edom> yikes
08:34:33: <Shrai> But it's all fixed now
08:35:09: <Shrai> Cutting myself off for their own good though
08:35:22: <New_Edom> good idea
08:35:37: <Shrai> Had the usual emails asking for more points
08:35:48: <New_Edom> I got straight As this semester
08:35:56: <Shrai> And I'm like "you really shouldn't be worrying about how to improve your grade after the final is done"
08:35:57: <New_Edom> one of them an A+
08:36:01: <Shrai> Hell yeah!
08:36:03: <New_Edom> lol
08:36:05: <Shrai> High-five!
08:36:08: <New_Edom> yeah. thanks man
08:36:16: <Shrai> God willing I'll do the same
08:36:30: <Shrai> Once I get around to writing this paper
08:36:31: <New_Edom> Irritatingly I'm best at history, which I can't think of a non-academic use for.
08:36:47: <New_Edom> but I think as politics becomes more relevant I'll find it easier.
08:36:58: <Shrai> The price of history is that no one values it highly enough to pay for it
08:37:02: <New_Edom> right
08:37:21: <Shrai> Those who are good at history are forced to watch helplessly as those bad at it run the country
08:37:24: <New_Edom> yeah this spring session I'm doing this refugee course anda course on human rights and indigenous law
08:37:28: <Shrai> It is our curse
08:37:30: <New_Edom> true Shrai
08:37:52: <New_Edom> I suspect the indigenous law one will be bullshit
08:38:03: <Shrai> It certainly would be in this country
08:38:10: <New_Edom> why?
08:38:32: <Shrai> Because indigenous law is entirely arbitrary. Most of it is left over from the 19th century
08:39:02: <New_Edom> do you mean laws governing indigenous people or the laws of indigenous people?
08:39:09: <New_Edom> Because this course is on the latter.
08:39:26: <Shrai> Well the former, mostly because in our case the latter has no weight over their affairs
08:39:46: <Shrai> The government reserves the right to ignore or overrule it at any time
08:39:54: <Shrai> We mostly let them have laws for show
08:40:05: <New_Edom> Oh. Our country is experimenting with partnering indigenous law systems (locally) with judges here.
08:40:31: <New_Edom> this is part of the result of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission here.
08:40:31: <Shrai> Oh now that's interesting
08:40:43: <Shrai> Here we would call that something along the lines of High Treason
08:41:08: <New_Edom> how come?
08:41:09: <Shrai> Can you imagine if Natives were allowed to prosecute an American for murder? It would be anarchy.
08:41:35: <Shrai> Which is why that is handled by the Fed
08:42:56: <Shrai> Which has a great track record of prosecuting said crimes on reservations
08:42:57: <New_Edom> Here they have successfully sued companies and governments for land rights and settlments
08:43:09: <Shrai> Truly Canada is an alien land
08:43:21: <New_Edom> it's all based on our Numbered Treaties you see
08:43:42: <Shrai> Why don't you just ignore the treaties when convenient?
08:43:47: <New_Edom> we did
08:43:48: <Shrai> It worked well for us
08:43:57: <Shrai> Oh there we go
08:44:02: <Shrai> Things start to make sense again
08:44:13: <New_Edom> but then after WWII many of our newer leaders became ashamed of how it was being done after seeing horrible human rights violations in Europe and Asia
08:44:51: <New_Edom> And there was a rise of new leaders like John Diefenbakker and various lawyers who did not like how we treated our Natives, especially since many of them fought for our country in both world wars.
08:45:14: <Shrai> Ah, see, there's the problem. Your hippie politicians started seeing them as humans with rights eh?
08:45:17: <New_Edom> gradually things began to change. There were a number of landmark cases and incidents like the Oka Crisis
08:45:31: <New_Edom> lol Diefenbakker was a conservative farmer from Saskatchewan
08:45:49: <New_Edom> a pudgy guy in a suit in the fifties, hardly a hippie
08:45:53: <Shrai> Classic hippie
08:45:57: <New_Edom> lol
08:47:52: <Shrai> Generally it's okay to just push them around
08:48:00: <Shrai> What are they going to do, fight back?
08:49:21: <Shrai> Anyway, why do you think its going to be BS in this case?
08:56:43: <New_Edom> sorry Shrai, distracted by dog
08:57:04: <New_Edom> the opposite of what you're talking about. Too much hype. too much progressive bullshit.
08:57:31: <New_Edom> I read some of the curriculum and work by the profs.
08:57:44: <New_Edom> Not enough about the actual practices of Indigenous law
08:57:55: <New_Edom> not enough history.
08:58:04: <Shrai> Ah, I see. A feel good course about how things should be
08:58:14: <New_Edom> yeah. I hate that kinda shit.
08:58:36: <New_Edom> It even requires us to read stuff by Chimpanzee Aioli
09:00:14: <Shrai> I assume that was auto'd
09:00:40: <New_Edom> sorry, I should say Chimimanda Ngozi Aidiche
09:01:52: <Shrai> I...wow
09:01:59: <New_Edom> ?
09:02:36: <Shrai> I'll assume that was auto'd
09:02:41: <New_Edom> lol
09:03:21: <New_Edom> anyway I find that kind of captive storytelling utterly exasperating and draining to listen to.
09:03:50: <Shrai> That part I get
09:04:29: <New_Edom> like she has this one bit where she's talking about how when she was a little girl she got to read these stories that were set in the UK and thought that they were just perfectly normal and she only had access to these books.
09:05:02: <New_Edom> My response is this: Canadians have varied experiences with reading. Highly varied. We have, you know, bookstores and libraries here.
09:05:30: <Shrai> wb
09:05:49: <New_Edom> You can kinda presume too that if people are in the class that they want to be there, they don't need to be told "You know it's important to read and listen to the stories of Natives."
09:05:54: <New_Edom> I already get it.
09:06:14: <Shrai> Yeah that doesn't sound like much of a class
09:06:43: <Shrai> When I take a class about ISIS I don't expect it to be about how they're bad or what kind of Muslim they are
09:07:10: <Shrai> These things should already be known
09:07:13: <New_Edom> exactly. I want to know how say Algonkian law functioned, how people qualified for it, etc.
09:07:57: <New_Edom> I blame all the old hippies and leftist professors for this, fighting old battles.
09:07:58: <Shrai> That seems like it would be more productive
09:08:20: <Shrai> I also have to question why you would have to read Ngozi Aidiche for this course
09:08:29: <Shrai> That wouldn't appear relevant
09:08:32: <New_Edom> yeah it's not a course about Nigeria or feminism
09:08:35: <Shrai> Even as theory
09:08:39: <New_Edom> but wait! yes it is a course about feminism!
09:08:47: <New_Edom> because it's in the goddamned curriculum guide
09:08:57: <New_Edom> gender gender gender mentioned all over it.
09:09:23: <Shrai> Ok so use someone relevant to gender and law or gender and history
09:10:10: <Shrai> There are better candidates out there for a course like that
09:10:33: <New_Edom> sure. But she's popular. That's a red flag for me.
09:10:55: <New_Edom> See, even there, I wouldn't mind discussing and learning about women's traditoinal roles in Indigenous law, and how they are changing, that would be intersting and useful.
09:11:53: <New_Edom> but we'll see how it goes.
09:12:23: <Shrai> Yeah that doesn't seem relevant
09:12:45: <New_Edom> it'll make idiots feel good, so hey
09:12:50: <Shrai> I'd see maybe James Scott...but that would mostly be for history
09:13:17: <Shrai> It occurs to me that most of the names I know are specifically for the Middle East or Islam lol
09:13:31: <New_Edom> I got an A+ on my paper on the vital role of Native allies in the War of 1812 (for Canada and the UK)
09:13:36: <New_Edom> that makes sense.
09:13:51: <Shrai> Leila Ahmed, Fatima Mernissi, Joan Scott, etc
09:14:01: <New_Edom> right
09:14:13: <Shrai> Well yeah we didn't have any native allies in that war lol
09:14:20: <New_Edom> the senecas?
09:14:29: <Shrai> Were they on our side?
09:14:32: <New_Edom> yes
09:14:42: <New_Edom> a rare exception
09:15:09: <New_Edom> who is your favourite historian?
09:15:21: <Shrai> Wow. I'd say it was a bad choice but it would have ended the same either way.
09:16:08: <Shrai> That's a difficult question. I like Rashid Khalidi a lot, he's a big inspiration
09:16:22: <New_Edom> what does he focus on mostly?
09:16:49: <Shrai> Modern Middle East
09:16:56: <New_Edom> nice
09:17:07: <Shrai> Especially Israel-Palestine
09:17:35: <Shrai> I loved his book Sowing Crisis and I got to meet/have dinner with him once
09:17:48: <New_Edom> wow that must have been exciting
09:17:50: <Shrai> And now one of his students is quite by chance my Thesis Advisor
09:18:16: <New_Edom> very cool
09:18:23: <Shrai> It was very exciting. He struck me as the kind of person who puts everything into his work, then deflates, then gets energized again
09:18:45: <New_Edom> that must have been very inspiring.
09:19:35: <Shrai> It was. And a little intimidating.
09:19:54: <New_Edom> intimidating how?
09:19:58: <Shrai> But I tend to agree with most of his theses and his history is on point.
09:20:07: <Shrai> And intimidating because I never feel like I have that much energy lol
09:20:15: <New_Edom> heh
09:20:35: <New_Edom> well, you are a Southerner. ;)
09:21:19: <Shrai> Ha
09:21:40: <Shrai> Well my driver's license says Arizona so I guess I really am, in both senses of the term
09:24:22: <Shrai> I watched Kingdom of Heaven for the first time since learning Arabic tonight. I finally understand the lyrics from the end credits song
09:24:32: <New_Edom> cool.
09:24:35: <New_Edom> what are they?
09:24:43: <New_Edom> didn't like the movie btw
09:25:15: <Shrai> No? I love it. Although I think I remember having this conversation
09:25:38: <Shrai> About how Bloom's character was a bit out of the realm of possibility
09:26:04: <New_Edom> yeah I found that hard to overlook, along with how the Templars were made the bad guys, and the Queen made a flake.
09:26:34: <Shrai> I mean they did do the things they did in the movie
09:26:46: <Shrai> Whether that was good or bad is more ambiguous
09:27:08: <Shrai> But she's singing "I believe in the kingdom of heaven, I believe in the kingdom of love"
09:27:13: <New_Edom> right
09:27:15: <New_Edom> that's cool
09:27:51: <Shrai> "and the light of life is the nation, there is no god but God"
09:27:59: <tits> +
09:28:04: <New_Edom> very pretty
09:28:36: <Shrai> And basically repeats that, adding at the end "I believe in the kingdom of love, my beloved"
09:29:22: <Shrai> I could also understand most of the Arabic in the movie, which was nice. Lucky for me it wasn't particularly advanced level.
09:30:05: <Shrai> oh I missed "Love is the breeze of dreams"
09:30:43: <New_Edom> that sounds like something from Omar Khayyam
09:30:59: <Shrai> It does
09:31:19: <Shrai> There are some themes in Arabic songs and poetry that you start to see everywhere when you read or listen to them enough
09:32:29: <Shrai> I also wonder now if Bloom's character was supposed to be relatable to Frederick II
09:32:54: <New_Edom> I guess? I think he was supposed to be the real life Balian but didn't do him justice
09:33:17: <New_Edom> are you going to see The Promise btw?
09:33:54: <Shrai> Well he was yes, but if he was supposed to be that alone then they failed
09:34:19: <New_Edom> they did. It was annoying.
09:34:30: <Shrai> I wasn't planning to
09:34:35: <Shrai> Is it actually supposed to be good?
09:34:45: <New_Edom> It doesn't LOOK good
09:35:13: <New_Edom> anyway you've chosen a fascinating line of study, I hope it serves you well.
09:35:17: <Shrai> No that was my impression as well
09:35:33: <Shrai> It looks like a puff piece about the Armenian genocide
09:35:33: <New_Edom> I can just see you now giving a briefing for the State Department and being completely ignored :D
09:36:00: <Shrai> And considering I've seen actually film of the actual genocide, I doubt I'll be impressed by its message OR its accuracy
09:36:18: <Shrai> Lol thank you. That is a life goal for me
09:36:27: <New_Edom> we had an interesting debate about it in my History of the Modern Middle East course.
09:36:44: <Shrai> I want to go home and be like "I was completely ignored...by the President!"
09:36:49: <New_Edom> lol
09:36:55: <Shrai> I imagine you did
09:37:02: <Shrai> It's a debatable issue
09:37:20: <New_Edom> yes it certainly is.
09:37:35: <Shrai> Funny how thousands of starving, displaced, and dead people can become lively semantic discussion
09:37:40: <New_Edom> I argued that it was more prejudice and incompetence than deliberate desire for genodcide.
09:38:46: <Shrai> Well if you accept a definition of genocide as government-sponsored removal of a distinguishable group of people from the nation, then it qualifies as a genocide
09:39:24: <New_Edom> is the japanese internment a genocide then?
09:39:42: <Shrai> It would be if they had been removed from the nation
09:39:52: <Shrai> But they were still on U.S. soil
09:40:09: <Shrai> They would have had to be killed to quality by that definition
09:40:14: <New_Edom> alright, then is the Trail of Tears a genocide?
09:40:21: <Shrai> Absolutely
09:40:35: <New_Edom> right. anyway I don't dispute that it was a genocide
09:41:10: <New_Edom> I was merely stating that I don't think they PLANNED to kill so many of them or have them starve, get enslaved, mobbed, etc; I think it just happened. I think that they also didn't care. I think that's bad enough.
09:41:29: <Shrai> Oh no, I don't think they planned to kill so many of them either
09:41:36: <New_Edom> I mostly mean that not all genocides are done with obvious intense planning like Rwanda or Nazi Germany or Cambodia
09:42:05: <Shrai> No they aren't, but they do require the basic planning for removal
09:42:14: <New_Edom> I also think that the triumvirate had other things on their minds.
09:42:30: <New_Edom> again, that's bad enough, to see an entire demographic as a nuisance to be removed.
09:42:44: <Shrai> I consider the Black War a genocide too, which got me in REALLY hot water with an Aussie on the internet a few days ago
09:42:55: <New_Edom> how come?
09:43:21: <Shrai> Apparently because only 120 of the aboriginal in Tasmania were shot out of 800, it wasn't a genocide
09:43:31: <Shrai> They need to be directly shot and killed, you see
09:43:59: <New_Edom> that's like if only 6 million Canadians were shot
09:44:02: <Shrai> The fact that they were rounded up and sent to outlying islands and now there are no more of them is irrelevant
09:44:15: <Shrai> That's what I said lol. But eventually I just dropped it.
09:44:30: <Shrai> Some people just don't feel comfortable being told that their ancestors were genocidal
09:44:35: <Shrai> They need a safe space
09:44:44: <New_Edom> people are using words like genocide here
09:44:48: <New_Edom> about our Natives.
09:45:08: <New_Edom> the problem for westerners is that your FIRST thought is "You mean like Hitler"?
09:45:17: <Shrai> Yep
09:45:19: <New_Edom> and so naturally it's very offensive.
09:45:44: <Shrai> I mean, even in Australia I wouldn't use the term genocide as an umbrella term
09:46:04: <Shrai> I think Tasmania is a very cut and dry case, but it varies from tribe to tribe
09:46:50: <Shrai> In America I would say that the majority of cases are genocide by definition
09:47:13: <New_Edom> Some call Canadian residential schools cultural genocide
09:47:16: <Shrai> There are a few exceptions though. Some tribes got lucky and the treaties held.
09:47:53: <New_Edom> lol my black humour doesn't always amuse my fellow classmates
09:48:00: <New_Edom> like I find the White Man's Burden poem hilarious
09:48:11: <Shrai> Are residential schools anything like the reprogramming schools in America?
09:48:24: <Shrai> Well they say black humor is like food Edom
09:48:27: <Shrai> Not everyone gets it
09:49:22: <New_Edom> a bit. They were largely run by religious organizations under the Department of Indian Affairs, and the idea of Duncan Campbell Scott, who was the most influential official, was to "Kill the Indian"
09:49:40: <Shrai> Yep sounds about the same
09:50:13: <New_Edom> So the students were in some cases yanked off their reserves, not permitted to do anything involving their culture, speak their own language, etc. Unfortunately they were also treated with typical European style brutality towards students without the same hope for the future or appeal to justice
09:50:15: <Shrai> No native languages allowed, all students must convert to Protestant Christianity, new names, etc
09:50:53: <New_Edom> This might still have been okay, but then they also didn't allow them to politically organize, travel without passes, and they were generally subjected to racial prejudice, so a total no win situation.
09:50:53: <Shrai> Then thrown back on the reservation unable to communicate with anyone and unable to get a job in America or among their own people
09:51:03: <Shrai> Statistically left to drink themselves to suicide
09:51:04: <New_Edom> yeah what you said basically.
09:51:20: <New_Edom> so the idea of colonizing them doesn't bother me, really. It's how it was done.
09:51:59: <Shrai> I mean you're generally okay with erasing cultures?
09:52:11: <New_Edom> Nope. didn't say that.
09:52:40: <New_Edom> I'm okay with the idea of Europeans having moved to the New Worl and settling it, making agreements with the natives (who were far smaller in population) and establishing larger more powerful governmsnt and economies.
09:53:00: <New_Edom> What I'm also okay with is teaching Natives European languages of origin and culture, technology, etc.
09:53:43: <New_Edom> I'm not okay with stealing land in violation of agreements, failing to uphold our end of treaties, forcing them to learn only our language while not learning theirs at all, torturing them if they refuse, andputting them in no win situations.
09:54:05: <Shrai> Yeah that I can get on board with
09:54:07: <New_Edom> I'm also not okay with treating our allies with contempt, robbing them and mocking them.
09:54:23: <tits> Srhai!
09:54:28: <tits> *Shrai
09:54:31: <Shrai> ttis!
09:54:34: <Shrai> Tits!
09:54:43: <New_Edom> lol
09:55:15: tits finally awoke at the right time for once
09:55:41: <Shrai> I also hope that "treating our allies with contempt, robbing them and mocking them" isn't a commentary on the current U.S. President
09:55:55: <Shrai> Because it could be and I take exception to that as a red-blooded American patrior
10:02:17: <Shrai> I actually should go to sleep, I think. I have a headache and the light from the screen is not helping. I'm typing in between closing my eyes
10:03:02: <New_Edom> take Care Shrai
10:03:13: <New_Edom> lol about your earlier comment
10:03:25: <Shrai> You too Edom, good talking to you. And thanks ha
10:03:26: <New_Edom> I should be off to bed too night all
10:03:27: <tits> Take care Shrai
10:03:34: <tits> And New_Edom
17:26:57: <Ngol> hey Tits
17:35:11: <tits> Hey Ngol
17:35:15: <tits> How are you?
17:42:41: <Ngol> ok
17:42:54: <Ngol> quick visit before I get started on the day here.
17:44:03: <Ngol> how goes the Cornellian wars? :p
17:44:24: <tits> Sufficiently well the standard diplomatic dick waving continues
17:44:36: <Ngol> ah yes
17:44:48: <Ngol> so much fun
17:50:31: <tits> indeed
17:53:12: <Ngol> lol
17:53:16: <Ngol> enjoy
17:59:17: <Ngol> gotta jet.
19:23:40: <Riet> Hi
19:24:12: <tits> Hey there Riet
19:24:20: <tits> How are you doing?