SHARE
TWEET

Untitled

a guest May 1st, 2014 4,306 Never
Not a member of Pastebin yet? Sign Up, it unlocks many cool features!
  1. [00:46] <Arcanis_> I completely disagree with what you said earlier about users all being Mojang users and not being Technic/FTB/ATL, etc users. This is not true.
  2. [00:46] <Arcanis_> I, like many other people, haven't used vanilla in well over two years. I ran bukkit servers. I've played forge. And now I run an MCPC+ server. But vanilla? Nope.
  3. [00:47] <Arcanis_> Why is that? Many people have different ideas about how they want to play games and spend their time.
  4. [00:47] <Arcanis_> That should not be limited by YOUR vision of how a game should be played.
  5. [00:47] <Arcanis_> Or your intepretation
  6. [00:48] <Arcanis_> This fear campaign has been plainly dishonest and unecessary.
  7. [00:48] <Arcanis_> And mostly it just shows for people with deductive reasoning skills that Mojang is being lazy.
  8. [00:48] <Arcanis_> If you don't want launchers to do a certain thing, but poeple don't like Mojang's shitty launcher, either provide a better launcher or provide a better system for the existing launchers so that they don't do that thing you don't want them to do.
  9. [00:49] <Arcanis_> Instead, you guys are throwing a damned tantrum.
  10. [00:49] <Arcanis_> Because people are working with the system that was presented to them.
  11. [00:49] <Arcanis_> This is illogical.
  12. [00:49] <Arcanis_> I doubt you will respond to me. I don't expect it. But you might read this. And given that I don't know you or your personality, you may as well just ignore it. But it might show you some reason.
  13. [00:49] <Arcanis_> And it might help you to see the other side.
  14. [00:57] <Grum> it was ripped out of context
  15. [00:57] <Arcanis_> Here is your chance to clarify.
  16. [00:58] <Grum> the users are our users, if they use something else they are obviously users of those things. However, if you want to send data around do that based on whatever *you* have created for the users, do not send data around that is only at the users' computer so they can log in to servers
  17. [00:58] <Grum> it's that simple
  18. [00:59] <Arcanis_> Alright, then let's move to my second point. Many systems provide an API for third party authentication. I can use Google/Facebook to log into websites all over the place without sending any actual auth info.
  19. [00:59] <Grum> You have no business 'having' the tokens so a user can log into a game-server on *your* servers, they should only be local and used for the purpose they are created for
  20. [00:59] <Arcanis_> Instead of punishing 3rd party launchers for using the system that was put in front of them, can we provide an alternative?
  21. [00:59] <Grum> Do you understand that we have a limited amount of people working at Mojang?
  22. [00:59] <Arcanis_> Yes. I do.
  23. [01:00] <Arcanis_> I also understand that 15 million copies were sold for the PC, many millions more for other platforms.
  24. [01:00] <Grum> Do you understand that we're not going to build things that we know we're going to have to deprecate in the future?
  25. [01:00] <Arcanis_> Mojang is not an indie company anymore. By definition you publish your own games and do so much more.
  26. [01:00] <Arcanis_> It's time to mature.
  27. [01:00] <Grum> All of that matters nothing
  28. [01:01] <Grum> The amount of sales, the amount of money -- if it was less or more we'd be having the same discussion
  29. [01:01] <Arcanis_> With more sales, you have more resources at your disposal.
  30. [01:01] <Grum> so now answer my question
  31. [01:01] <Arcanis_> With that, you have more purchasing power. More ability to hire more people.
  32. [01:02] <Grum> should we waste those resources on something that we *KNOW* we are not going to want to have around in the future?
  33. [01:02] <Arcanis_> Does Mojang have a defined roadmap?
  34. [01:02] <Arcanis_> Is it publicly available so that people can look at it and know what is going on?
  35. [01:02] <Arcanis_> Or are people left in the dark intentionally?
  36. [01:02] <Arcanis_> It is pointless to create things you know you want to get rid of.
  37. [01:02] <Grum> Ah, so google tells exactly what they are going to do to everyone?
  38. [01:03] <Grum> let us not derail this.
  39. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Google is one example, but google doesn't have the same type of community.
  40. [01:03] <Grum> Again, that doesn't matter
  41. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Road maps are necessary for user input and feedback.
  42. [01:03] <Grum> But that implies we want feedback on these issues
  43. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Otherwise you end up with a lot of frustrated people.
  44. [01:03] <Arcanis_> You don't want feedback from people who use your systems?
  45. [01:03] <Arcanis_> Do their opinions not matter?
  46. [01:04] <Arcanis_> That is a terrible attitude.
  47. [01:04] <Grum> Can you imagine there are some subjects where 'user input' actually doesn't matter at all for the course of what is going to happen?
  48. [01:04] <Grum> Like for example the skin system
  49. [01:04] <Grum> we had no choice but to change it, it literally *broke* under the weight of bad design and millions of users
  50. [01:04] <Arcanis_> Ahh yes, but in many cases, user input is very important.
  51. [01:05] <Grum> yes, but who are you to decide which cases that applies to?
  52. [01:05] <Grum> Shouldn't we decide this?
  53. [01:05] <Arcanis_> You are implying that this is black and white. You have to think intelligently about how you would receive input and on what things.
  54. [01:05] <Grum> Which is what we're doing
  55. [01:05] <Arcanis_> I think your community should decide.
  56. [01:05] <Arcanis_> Rather than 5 guys.
  57. [01:05] <Grum> Yeah, design by community doesn't work
  58. [01:05] <Arcanis_> The people who play the game.
  59. [01:05] <Grum> and its more than 5 people
  60. [01:05] <Grum> and this is not about gameplay
  61. [01:05] <Arcanis_> 5 was an arbitrary number.
  62. [01:06] <Grum> happens to match the size of the team working on MC
  63. [01:06] <Grum> but hey!
  64. [01:06] <Arcanis_> I'm leading to something really important here.
  65. [01:06] <Arcanis_> I work with linux systems. Open source development is incredibly important.
  66. [01:06] <Grum> But we're not opensource
  67. [01:06] <Grum> so it doesn't really apply :)
  68. [01:06] <Arcanis_> And not just working with it, but also for education.
  69. [01:06] <Grum> also opensource doesnt mean 'flawless' -- remember heartbleed?
  70. [01:06] <Arcanis_> Well many of us feel that Mojang should change their stance.
  71. [01:06] <Arcanis_> Neither does closesource.
  72. [01:06] <Grum> 'their stance' on what?
  73. [01:06] <Arcanis_> There will be bugs either way.
  74. [01:07] <Grum> yes
  75. [01:07] <Arcanis_> But open source allows for user generated feedback and input.
  76. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Also, if you don't like something a user wants, you don't accept a pull request.
  77. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Simple as that.
  78. [01:07] <Grum> Ah, and it takes no time at all handling pullrequests
  79. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Come up with standard practices.
  80. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Rather than everyone coming up with their own unique system.
  81. [01:07] <Grum> Which is what we're doing
  82. [01:07] <Arcanis_> Making it impossible for the end user to work with these things without a 3rd party launcher.
  83. [01:08] <Grum> we're changing the codebase to something that is modifiable
  84. [01:08] <Arcanis_> I heard mod api was cancelled in favor of a plugin api.
  85. [01:08] <Grum> But again, this has nothing to do with launchers
  86. [01:08] <Grum> sigh, modding is not something that is 'sustainable'
  87. [01:08] <Arcanis_> I don't see a problem with it.
  88. [01:08] <Grum> even most of the forge things are more in a the style of plugins than mods nowadays
  89. [01:08] <Arcanis_> It's a matter of design.
  90. [01:08] <Grum> and lex is going to great troubles limited the ease of doing actual 'coremods'
  91. [01:09] <Grum> it's not.
  92. [01:09] <Grum> Modding implies taking something, changing it, putting it back
  93. [01:09] <Grum> two people cannot mod the same piece of code at the same time
  94. [01:09] <Grum> which is why shit like modloaders etc exist
  95. [01:09] <Arcanis_> Actually that is also a matter of design.
  96. [01:09] <Arcanis_> <--- making a game in Python, PyPy, etc.
  97. [01:09] <Grum> they 'abstract' the common pieces people want to do changes to
  98. [01:09] <Arcanis_> Can inject modded code while it's running and update immediately.
  99. [01:10] <Arcanis_> So... matter of design.
  100. [01:10] <Grum> Not sure how any of that matters?
  101. [01:10] <Grum> Modding is building tightly coupled things, in the tightest way possible, actually changing the class in a non-dynamic language
  102. [01:10] <Arcanis_> I haven't messed enough with Forge to say with enough certainty, but I'm relatively sure it's not possible in java.
  103. [01:11] <Grum> Again, not sure how it matters
  104. [01:11] <Grum> you drag in python, it has nothing to do with this :)
  105. [01:11] <Arcanis_> You were talking about different mods altering the same classes.
  106. [01:11] <Grum> the language is not part of the design
  107. [01:11] <Arcanis_> I know it isn't... I was using an example from something else that is designed differently.
  108. [01:11] <Grum> the language is the thing you use to implement a design
  109. [01:12] <Grum> If the design is broken the language doesn't matter
  110. [01:13] <Arcanis_> Which goes back to my original point.
  111. [01:13] <Grum> I'm stating the current design is broken, or rather, there was no design to allow trivial extending
  112. [01:13] <Arcanis_> Yes it is.
  113. [01:13] <Grum> we're slowly fixing it
  114. [01:13] <Grum> but again, this all has nothing to do with launchers
  115. [01:13] <Arcanis_> And that process can be sped up.
  116. [01:13] <Grum> it cannot be sped up
  117. [01:13] <Arcanis_> Some to do with launchers.
  118. [01:13] <Grum> because people have no fucking clue what needs to happen
  119. [01:13] <Grum> maybe 5 out of 10000 do
  120. [01:13] <Arcanis_> That is the wrong attitude.
  121. [01:13] <Arcanis_> I know some incredibly talented programmers who play the game in their spare time.
  122. [01:14] <Grum> but finding those people between all the cruft is not worth it time wise right now
  123. [01:14] <Grum> Oh i know some too, I actually got some on the team
  124. [01:14] <Arcanis_> They come to you. All you need is people to filter out the bad ones. Again, thats what community support is for.
  125. [01:14] <Arcanis_> Crowd source your work, speed it up.
  126. [01:14] <Grum> again, right now we're not at a point where it is remotely comfortable to take MASSIVELY large patches from the community to fix the issues we're having
  127. [01:15] <Grum> even for ourselves, with 5 people, we run into eachother all the time
  128. [01:15] <Grum> because its a huge pain in the ass tightly clustered ball of spaghetti code right now
  129. [01:15] <Grum> that has to be untangled
  130. [01:15] <Arcanis_> Alright. Well until you do open to your community, your community will continue to be incredibly frustrated. There is a lot of it going around.
  131. [01:15] <Grum> and for a simple frikking change like 'not having the code decide which texture goes where on a block' you end up hacking at the code for two weeks, doing changes in over 100 files
  132. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Yeah I know how that is -.-
  133. [01:16] <Grum> those things are not even compatible in our team right now
  134. [01:16] <Arcanis_> So I can understand your side.
  135. [01:16] <Grum> I spend a significant amount of time rebasing our major branches ontop of eachother
  136. [01:16] <Arcanis_> And I'm glad to actually talk to someone.
  137. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Not on Twitter.
  138. [01:16] <Grum> twitter sucks
  139. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Yes.
  140. [01:16] <Grum> fuck char limits, fuck mentioning people counting to those limits
  141. [01:16] <Arcanis_> Because.. I've used Minecraft a very long time now. And there are a ton of people jumping ship right now.
  142. [01:17] <Arcanis_> And that makes me sad.
  143. [01:17] <Grum> people jump ship all the time
  144. [01:17] <Arcanis_> I mean a lot of people.
  145. [01:17] <Grum> nothing significant is happening at all :)
  146. [01:17] <Arcanis_> One thing that is incredibly important.
  147. [01:17] <Arcanis_> I talked to Ryan Holt, I think is his name?
  148. [01:18] <Grum> Holtz, yes
  149. [01:18] <Arcanis_> We really need to implement a proper job queuing system.
  150. [01:18] <Grum> yes
  151. [01:18] <Arcanis_> I work with TickThreading and got Nallar back to working on it.
  152. [01:18] <Arcanis_> But that's really a tiny bandaid for a big wound.
  153. [01:18] <Grum> you dont thread things in mc haha
  154. [01:18] <Arcanis_> Yeah..
  155. [01:18] <Grum> world access is the unsafest thing *EVER*
  156. [01:18] <Arcanis_> It breaks things..
  157. [01:19] <Grum> (as in multithread unsafe)
  158. [01:19] <Arcanis_> Well I was thinking of different methods to implement a job queuing system.
  159. [01:19] <Arcanis_> But that isn't my area of expertise.
  160. [01:20] <Grum> neither are they mine
  161. [01:20] <Arcanis_> I found something called Gearman, and some people said it could work. But it might be better to write a new system that is designed to work with MC.
  162. [01:20] <Grum> but just having an executer queue that you can submit jobs which then get handled on the main-thread during a certain moment of a cycle should be plenty
  163. [01:21] <Grum> for now at least
  164. [01:21] <Grum> also, what sort of 'ticking' are you talking about?
  165. [01:21] <Arcanis_> Well, modded servers (and I know modding isn't supported) deal with a lot of issues because everything is coupled to the main thread.
  166. [01:21] <Arcanis_> https://github.com/nallar/TickThreading
  167. [01:22] <Grum> that says very little about what it is actually doing
  168. [01:22] <Arcanis_> So when you have a lot of tile entities that update a lot, it causes a lot of lag because that update thread is overloaded.
  169. [01:22] <Grum> I like: Code should be self-documenting - when possible meaningful names and good design should make comments unnecessary
  170. [01:22] <Grum> written by someone who 'gets it' :)
  171. [01:22] <Arcanis_> I agree.
  172. [01:22] <Arcanis_> That's how I write.
  173. [01:23] <Grum> 'a lot of tileentities' ... well there we go
  174. [01:23] <Grum> i dont think any of the tileentities we have in the game actually have to tick
  175. [01:23] <Arcanis_> Well, TT spreads the update ticks over as many threads as you have cores.
  176. [01:23] <Arcanis_> Hoppers.
  177. [01:23] <Arcanis_> I've seen them do a lot of updates in conjunction with pipes.
  178. [01:23] <Grum> ok maybe that one ;)
  179. [01:23] <Arcanis_> They were never designed to work with pipes.
  180. [01:24] <Grum> or pipes were never updated to work with hoppers? ;D
  181. [01:24] <Arcanis_> For vanilla, this isn't a problem. But it is a HUGE MAJOR HUGE problem for modded servers lol.
  182. [01:24] <Grum> afaik also fixed?
  183. [01:24] <Arcanis_> There are ... I think 5 major pipe mods? They all work like that.
  184. [01:24] <Arcanis_> In what version?
  185. [01:25] <Grum> i assume you are talking about opis reporting hoppers taking a relatively long time?
  186. [01:25] <Arcanis_> Modded servers for the most part can't progress past 1.6.4. forge 1.7 is a buggy hellscape.
  187. [01:25] <Arcanis_> Yeah. Was that a bug?
  188. [01:25] <Grum> yes
  189. [01:25] <Grum> and has been fixed
  190. [01:25] <Grum> probably 1.7
  191. [01:25] <Arcanis_> Disregard that statement haha.
  192. [01:25] <Grum> no idea, we don't care for old shit :P
  193. [01:25] <Arcanis_> I understand that. Which brings up another point.
  194. [01:25] <Grum> but wait!
  195. [01:25] <Grum> shouldn't the whole 'collective of the opensource internet' be able to make Forge stable in minutes?
  196. [01:26] <Arcanis_> lol what
  197. [01:26] <Arcanis_> People are generally lazy and are fine with expecting someone else to do something.
  198. [01:26] <Arcanis_> Also lex has a bad attitude, so no one will work with him.
  199. [01:27] <Arcanis_> Otherwise, I'm sure it would get updated faster.
  200. [01:27] <Grum> He has an attitude, often the right one :)
  201. [01:27] <Grum> he's just separating the cruft from the non-cruft
  202. [01:27] <Arcanis_> I meant, he is really mean to people.
  203. [01:27] <Grum> mean? no, people are stupid
  204. [01:27] <Grum> they get angry when you say they are stupid :(
  205. [01:27] <Arcanis_> That isn't true either. One person might not be an expert in computer science, but could be a complete genius in their field.
  206. [01:27] <Arcanis_> And you have no way of knowing that.
  207. [01:28] <Grum> obviously
  208. [01:28] <Grum> but everyone is stupid in something :)
  209. [01:28] <Arcanis_> Obviously there is a 50% chance that someone is below average ;)
  210. [01:28] <Grum> therefor everyone is stupid
  211. [01:28] <Arcanis_> LOL
  212. [01:28] <Grum> statement holds perfectly stable ;)
  213. [01:28] <Arcanis_> But you must forgive that for the things people are good in. Instead of stupid, call it ignorance.
  214. [01:28] <Grum> but that implies i want to spend time on making that difference
  215. [01:29] <Grum> anyhow!
  216. [01:29] <Arcanis_> The difference between stupid people and JUST ignorant people is that the stupid ones won't understand something when you explain it to them plainly.
  217. [01:29] <Arcanis_> Yes back to my point.
  218. [01:29] <Grum> RIght now the codebase is in no shape at all to either be 'opensource' or 'taking pullrequests from random people'
  219. [01:29] <Arcanis_> really what I mean about being open source.. ther eis a middle ground.
  220. [01:29] <Arcanis_> You don't support older versions.
  221. [01:29] <Arcanis_> But the code is still obfuscated and hard to work with.
  222. [01:29] <Grum> however, we are taking pullrequests from 'select few'
  223. [01:30] <Arcanis_> So why not release open source versions of old releases?
  224. [01:30] <Arcanis_> Say open source 1.6 so people can finish patching the bugs on their own.
  225. [01:30] <Grum> lol
  226. [01:30] <Arcanis_> And if someone comes up with good ideas, it can be pulled to the newest version.
  227. [01:30] <Grum> it's java, it is opensource
  228. [01:30] <Grum> don't pretend that short names are a problem
  229. [01:31] <Arcanis_> It causes code to break on every update.
  230. [01:31] <Arcanis_> When it has to be remapped.
  231. [01:31] <Arcanis_> And then it has to be updated again.
  232. [01:31] <Arcanis_> But what if the mod didn't have to be updated?
  233. [01:31] <Grum> it only has to be remapped
  234. [01:31] <Grum> i dont see a problem
  235. [01:31] <Grum> should be trivial to do that
  236. [01:31] <Arcanis_> It's tough on the userbase.
  237. [01:31] <Arcanis_> Not so tough on the dev to remap.
  238. [01:31] <Arcanis_> People waiting and waiting for things to work properly again to see new features.
  239. [01:31] <Arcanis_> They don't want to abandon what they already made.
  240. [01:32] <Grum> you do realize that you are making an argument that people should work together to make something, yet no-one has started to make a sane api for the things they want to have abstracted out of the game so they just have to collectively update said api?
  241. [01:32] <Arcanis_> Well that is kind of the argument that other people are making is that they want to fork forge and take care of it themselves.
  242. [01:33] <Grum> so why don't they?
  243. [01:33] <Grum> just dont bother lex with it :)
  244. [01:33] <Arcanis_> And stick with 1.6.4, backport new things from newer versions, and never update because updating is always such a nightmare.
  245. [01:33] <Grum> and we'll shut down access for 1.6.4 eventually then
  246. [01:33] <Grum> because we actually do not want this to happen
  247. [01:33] <Arcanis_> Which is my point.
  248. [01:33] <Arcanis_> I don't want to be stuck on 1.6
  249. [01:33] <Arcanis_> I don't want to depend on it.
  250. [01:33] <Grum> modders are just lazy
  251. [01:34] <Grum> they sign up for: "LETS HACK AGAINST OBFUSCATED CODE" and then "OMG THE OBFUSCATION, WHIIIINEEE"
  252. [01:34] <Arcanis_> Why does it have to be obfuscated?
  253. [01:34] <Grum> it's like a mac-user not buying a new mac every 2-3 years
  254. [01:34] <Grum> and then complaining 'stuff gets slow' or 'stops getting updates'
  255. [01:34] <Arcanis_> (release deobfuscated version for development after some time)
  256. [01:34] <Grum> *you know that when you buy a bloody mac!*
  257. [01:34] <Arcanis_> who buys a mac?
  258. [01:34] <Arcanis_> o.o
  259. [01:34] <Grum> I do
  260. [01:35] <Grum> i hate windows as a dev os, it's a piece of shit
  261. [01:35] <Arcanis_> Yes it is.
  262. [01:35] <Arcanis_> And I guess mac is in *nix now.
  263. [01:35] <Grum> mac is bsd based yes
  264. [01:35] <Grum> it at least has a 'proper core'
  265. [01:35] <Grum> or at least something with a fucking shell on it >.>
  266. [01:35] <Arcanis_> So better than windows I suppose.
  267. [01:35] <Grum> and a concept of ssh >.>
  268. [01:35] <Arcanis_> right
  269. [01:36] <Grum> OMG GIT SO HARD ... no .. windows is just retarded for not having a sane shell/ssh ability
  270. [01:36] <Grum> no-one on linux or mac ever complains about it :P
  271. [01:36] <Arcanis_> But this is a serious request. Why not release deobfuscated code after a certain period of time specifically for development?
  272. [01:38] <Grum> because that would get people stuck on certain versions? :)
  273. [01:39] <Grum> and obviously it would be absolutely retarded to just give out the source to a sold product
  274. [01:39] <Arcanis_> There are people that still play 1.5, 1.4, and 1.2
  275. [01:39] <Arcanis_> Hmm, I work with android from time to time to.
  276. [01:39] <Arcanis_> Android is a sold product and it's 100% open source.
  277. [01:39] <Arcanis_> You can just download the whole thing.
  278. [01:39] <Grum> yes and those people playing those versions 'because they are so stable' (or whatever -- have redpower2?) are going to be better off if we have custom versions floating about based on different sourcecode?
  279. [01:40] <Grum> they dont sell android :)
  280. [01:40] <Arcanis_> Hmm. Well then a compromise.
  281. [01:40] <Grum> the compromise is that we let you decompile ;)
  282. [01:40] <Arcanis_> Release the source to a select group of people that work with modding that you can trust. MCP, Forge.
  283. [01:40] <Arcanis_> That's not a compromise.
  284. [01:40] <Grum> who says that is not the case already?
  285. [01:40] <Arcanis_> People can do that anyway whether you like it or not.
  286. [01:41] <Grum> MCP gets the full mapping of the obfuscation for a loooong time now
  287. [01:41] <Arcanis_> Then why doesn't forge come out fully mapped?
  288. [01:41] <Grum> and Forge works closely with MCP
  289. [01:41] <Grum> because they choose not to? They use it as reference?
  290. [01:41] <Grum> also, we'd stop giving it :P
  291. [01:41] <Arcanis_> Is it that they need specific permission?
  292. [01:41] <Arcanis_> So if they can figure it out themselves, it's fine.
  293. [01:41] <Arcanis_> But not if you give it to them.
  294. [01:42] <Grum> they asked for the mapping to assist them, based on that they get it
  295. [01:43] <Arcanis_> I just want more support for the community as a whole. A lot of us feel like modding doesn't receive much of any support, like Mojang is strictly anti modding.
  296. [01:43] <Grum> Obviously we don't support it
  297. [01:43] <Grum> again goes down the lines of the 'not doing stuff with things you know you don't want to have around in this shape or form in the future'
  298. [01:44] <Arcanis_> Which then brings me back to having a roadmap.
  299. [01:44] <Arcanis_> You don't need to explicitly say EVERYTHING you plan on doing. plans change.
  300. [01:44] <Arcanis_> But some generaly direction.
  301. [01:44] <Grum> the roadmap is 'working towards the api'
  302. [01:44] <Arcanis_> That's a start.
  303. [01:44] <Grum> which is what we're doing :)
  304. [01:44] <Grum> all the snapshots show you which direction we're currently tackling
  305. [01:45] <Grum> so there, you have your information
  306. [01:45] <Arcanis_> I usually see new features that most of us aren't all that interested in. When biomes were added, we said "We have bop, extrabiomesXl, Highlands, etc."
  307. [01:45] <Arcanis_> Slime blocks.
  308. [01:45] <Arcanis_> These things can be added by mods.
  309. [01:45] <Arcanis_> And usually do.
  310. [01:46] <Arcanis_> The adventure map stuff for command blocks was interesting.
  311. [01:46] <Grum> Yes, but why would we care you already have a mod for something?
  312. [01:46] <Arcanis_> Because you should care what your users use.
  313. [01:46] <Arcanis_> granted not everyone uses mods.
  314. [01:46] <Grum> ooooh really?!
  315. [01:46] <Arcanis_> Nowhere near everyone.
  316. [01:46] <Grum> ;)
  317. [01:47] <Arcanis_> Buut. Features should be secondary to fixing and patching things.
  318. [01:47] <Grum> also, 99% of the 'features' added to the game are 'spare time'-things
  319. [01:47] <Grum> which they are
  320. [01:47] <Arcanis_> Alright, I can take that.
  321. [01:47] <Grum> 4/5 people are working almost exclusively on hacking the code clean
  322. [01:47] <Grum> jens adds stuff and splits time between PC and PE
  323. [01:47] <Arcanis_> Why is it only a team of 5?
  324. [01:47] <Grum> so in fact its 4/4.5 people almost exclusively cleaning up the code
  325. [01:48] <Grum> because it is? because more people would not make it better
  326. [01:48] <Arcanis_> I understand not wanting too many people on the same thing.
  327. [01:48] <Arcanis_> So split it up into different sections and farm it out to different teams.
  328. [01:48] <Arcanis_> *if you had those teams
  329. [01:48] <Grum> lol
  330. [01:48] <Grum> what sort of teams do you envision?
  331. [01:49] <Grum> every change we need to do touches ~40% of the codebase
  332. [01:49] <Grum> there is HUGE overlap even in our team of 4 working on cleaning up
  333. [01:49] <Arcanis_> This is true.
  334. [01:49] <Arcanis_> But the entry point might be different.
  335. [01:50] <Arcanis_> I don't know how your internal system works.
  336. [01:50] <Arcanis_> But there is always room for improvement and efficiency gains.
  337. [01:51] <Grum> we could perhaps use 1 extra person
  338. [01:52] <Grum> but even that will mean i'll have to spend 50% of my time making sure everyone is doing what they should be doing in the way they should be doing it while not creating a new mess or causing conflicts
  339. [01:52] <Arcanis_> Being a project leader... not an easy task.
  340. [01:53] <Grum> i'm not a project leader -- thats the thing
  341. [01:53] <Arcanis_> A lot is expected of you.
  342. [01:53] <Arcanis_> I know you're not.
  343. [01:53] <Grum> but i am the one who is by far the most critical of 'how code looks'
  344. [01:53] <Arcanis_> Which makes you the key player.
  345. [01:53] <Arcanis_> Not technically in charge, but definitely in authority.
  346. [01:54] <Grum> yes, i make people rewrite their code plenty of times a week :P
  347. [01:54] <Arcanis_> That certainly slows everything down needlessly.
  348. [01:54] <Grum> needlessly?
  349. [01:54] <Arcanis_> I mean
  350. [01:54] <Grum> if i cannot read the new code they've written they are writing shitty code?
  351. [01:54] <Arcanis_> Yes, I'm agreeing with you.
  352. [01:55] <Grum> remember that thing i liked so much? "Code should be self-documenting - when possible meaningful names and good design should make comments unnecessary"
  353. [01:55] <Arcanis_> As in, having to write something twice is slow. Would be better to have it done right the first time.
  354. [01:55] <Grum> yes, but i cannot pair-program with everyone
  355. [01:55] <Grum> and people are also depending on me to write core systems ... at which i sortof suck
  356. [01:56] <Arcanis_> Should have a seminar on best practices that everyone can fall asleep in.
  357. [01:56] <Grum> but then again, anyone who says they do not suck at that ... well probably get surpassed by someone else who still believes they can learn
  358. [01:56] <Arcanis_> ;)
  359. [01:56] <Grum> yes, actually already sosrtof considered making everyone watch all the episode of cleancoders :P
  360. [01:56] <Arcanis_> Is that a youtube thing?
  361. [01:56] <Arcanis_> I like to brush up a lot.
  362. [01:57] <Arcanis_> But you could institute mandatory practices and required reading.
  363. [01:57] <Grum> i could, but you know things do not work like that
  364. [01:57] <Arcanis_> Yeah..
  365. [01:57] <Arcanis_> In a perfect world.
  366. [01:57] <Grum> if you do not know cleancoders, imho you cannot *EVER* be a good java-dev
  367. [01:57] <Arcanis_> <--- not a java dev
  368. [01:57] <Grum> :)
  369. [01:57] <Arcanis_> I can read it and write it a bit, but I do other things.
  370. [01:57] <Grum> its more in general
  371. [01:58] <Grum> if you call yourself a java-dev you are supposed to know about that
  372. [01:58] <Arcanis_> Then I will look into it for the sake of knowing it.
  373. [01:58] <Grum> http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Code-Handbook-Software-Craftsmanship/dp/0132350882
  374. [01:59] <Arcanis_> Thank you.
  375. [01:59] <Arcanis_> Also, thank you for taking the time to actually talk to me.
  376. [02:00] <Arcanis_> You have heard my concerns and you can think them through and talk to others about them. But one last thing needs to be talked about.
  377. [02:00] <Arcanis_> This twitter war needs to stop.
  378. [02:00] <Arcanis_> It's kind of funny, but it's also not.
  379. [02:01] <Arcanis_> So as people, we need to have a rational conversation about where to go.
RAW Paste Data
We use cookies for various purposes including analytics. By continuing to use Pastebin, you agree to our use of cookies as described in the Cookies Policy. OK, I Understand
 
Top