Sabeena: Transgenderism, pathology, bad communication

slippy
I feel like the transgender community has a lot of trauma in it.
00:30 slippy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8

Sabeena
I learned mine because my mother told me drasgons were destined for great things. I was also a secret Indian princess and it was my job to help the less fortunate.
Sabeena
Except we're in the hole about seven years.
Sabeena
Trans talk can resume in 2027.
Sabeena
We can talk about it in 2027.
slippy
What?
slippy
I have an intuition that pathology drives a substantial amount of expressions and choices in the online, highly-visible transgender community.
slippy
For example, they have a lot of esoteric terms for factions and sub-factions, and that seems to be a thing humans do when they're under distress.
slippy
When humans are under distress, alliances are critical for survival, and so it becomes important to identify the 'true belonging' of others.
Sabeena
I'm not sure that's specific to distress except as far as in-grouping happens to the distressed.
Sabeena
Un-distressed in-groups develop in- and out-group (factional) terms.
Sabeena
Alliances are important across the board. You are shining a very tiny spotlight.
slippy
I am processing your posts.
slippy
I believe you are thinking in excessively binary terms, thereby misinterpreting my posts.
slippy
This has occurred before.
Sabeena
You are displaying confirmation bias.
slippy
Okay, we each get one topic.
slippy
I'll choose the binary-thinking allegation.
Sabeena
What allegation?
slippy
How am I displaying confirmation bias?
slippy
My allegation that you interpreted my posts using excessive binary thinking, thereby distorting my position.
Sabeena
You are deriving distress from construction of in/outgroup language.
slippy
Rates of distress, yes, that is my hypothesis.
slippy
Prevalence and intensity, not existence v. non-existence of distress.
slippy
"Un-distressed in-groups develop in- and out-group (factional) terms."
slippy
That's not strictly relevant.
slippy
I agree they do that.
Sabeena
You have found higher rates of distress where there is construction of in/outgroup language?
slippy
My hypothesis is at lower rates and intensity.
Sabeena
Or you have found it in this one group abd are assigning that arbitrarily.
slippy
I believe I've stated this before, but I'm a Bayesian and I bring standard scientific epistemology to this and all conversations.
slippy
"I'm not sure that's specific to distress except as far as in-grouping happens to the distressed."
Sabeena
I haven't distorted your position. I gently challenged it.
slippy
I believe you had misunderstood my position.
slippy
Based off your posts.
slippy
Let me try again.
slippy
"My intuition is that the online, highly-visible transgender community has statistically higher rates of pathology, due to, in part, the increased rates of esoteric terms for sub-factional identities coupled with the emotional and community saliences those identities play in the larger community."
slippy
salience*
Sabeena
Are you saying the higher rates of pathology is due to increased rates of esoteric terms? Or that your intuition that they have higher rates of pathology is due to observed rates of esoteric terms.
slippy
I've watched several Contrapoints video and I thought I was getting some reasonable insight into the transgender perspective. Her latest video, Cancelling, features many scenes in which Natalie goes deep into the internal dynamics of parts of the online transgender community. I am astounded by its qualities.
slippy
Sabeena: Closer to the latter.
Sabeena
Right. That is what I was challenging.
slippy
On what basis?
slippy
You've noted that baseline communities also create sub-factional identities, which I agree with.
Sabeena
On the basis that I haven't seen in/outgroup language construction indicates higher rates of distress.
Sabeena
Or pathology.
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slippy
It's not the construction, but the prevalence and intensity of those constructions.
Sabeena
Yes.
slippy
Sabeena: I have some background knowledge that gives me some basis for my intuition.
slippy
I can cite two pieces of relevant background knowledge.
Sabeena
Yes please.
slippy
1) Right-wing minds feature stronger usage of 'borders' in this worldview: be nations, be genders, between concepts. Right-wing minds feature higher rates of fear and, possibly other 'basal' emotional states.
Sabeena
I would be happier with examples less emotionally charged for you.
slippy
2) Populations which have recently undergone substantial stress, such as viral outbreak, shifts the community average to a more right-wing position like the above.
slippy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XFudmaObLI

slippy
Those two pieces of background knowledge are generally consistent with my observations of Homo sapiens that as they're under greater stress it's more important to them to identify the 'true nature' of things.
slippy
And that assessment of 'true nature' becomes more and more simplistic.
Sabeena
Can you point me to any indication of a baseline prevalence in random/normal/groups you don't have some bias toward/against.
slippy
The left-wing mind in modernity is characterized, in part, by greater levels of openness and acceptance of ambiguity.
Sabeena
Otherwise you will more seriously consider my charge of confirmation bias.
Sabeena
I haven't talked to slippy in a month or so?
Sabeena
And I really am not at all talking about trans people.
slippy
For the first post, do you want linguistic examples or numbers?
slippy
For the second post, what am I confirming?
slippy
I don't know what's going on. I observed parts of the transgender community. Some of its qualities differ from my predictions. I am positing a hypothesis consistent with my other knowledge.
Sabeena
I would like a sense that you are comparing your perceived higher prevalence over a baseline rather than just associating higher prevalence with certain groups.  I leave it to you.
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slippy
I trust that my hypothesis is interesting because I know I'm a smart person and have good insight into human variation.
slippy
I haven't confirmed anything.
slippy
"I have an intuition..."
slippy
What does the one month fact have to do with discussion of the transgender community?
Sabeena
slippy the one month thing was a response to fr33d0g suggesting we do this daily. You may have him on ignore.
slippy
I see.
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slippy
Sabeena: You're questioning my general ability to make assessments about groups of people.
slippy
That is weird to me.
Sabeena
Stop taking simple challenges personally.
Sabeena
Grow up.
slippy
An interesting response.
slippy
Ironically, I think only you are doing what you accuse me of.
Sabeena
It tests one's patience.
slippy
I can demonstrate.
slippy
Responses that would not have anything to do with me, personally, would feature on the role of intuition v. scientific methodology, whether there is existing data on this topic, how strong of an effect do I think this is, etc.
Sabeena
You take a simple challenge as questioning your general ability.
slippy
You've done some of that.
Sabeena
I have taken what personally?
slippy
However, you've made it personal on a number of points.
Sabeena
That is you taking every little thing personally.
slippy
Your most recent post was "I would like a sense that you are comparing your perceived higher prevalence over a baseline rather than just associating higher prevalence with certain groups.  I leave it to you."
Sabeena
And then deflecting.
slippy
Your inclusion of "every" makes your statement false.
Sabeena
You asked me for a preference, I left it to you.
slippy
Sabeena: Do you see the difference between asking about the prediction v. qualities of the predictor?
Sabeena
What qualities?
slippy
"confirmation bias"
Sabeena
I suggested your intuition betrayed a confirmation bias and explicitly defined what might convince me otherwise.
slippy
Right, that's personal.
Sabeena
Right then.
slippy
Because you're discussing the predictor and not the prediction when you ask that.
Sabeena
This is no longer constructive.
Sabeena
You are deflecting.
slippy
Incorrect.
slippy
This level of meta-conversation and philosophy generally makes you frustrated, I have noticed.
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slippy
A 2011 study carried out by the Williams Institute (a UCLA think tank) found that 41% of transgender people had attempted suicide, with the rate being higher among people who experienced discrimination in access to housing or healthcare, harassment, physical or sexual assault, or rejection by family.[91]
slippy
Sabeena: Are you present?
Sabeena
When I run an intuition I'm starting to play with by a peer, I expect them to help me build on it. Usually by contributing expertise, pointing out avenues to explore or suggesting possible bias. I wonder if the channel of discourse has something to do with your reactions. Like maybe you just have walls up online.
slippy
Based on the 2017 Youth Risk Behaviors Survey, 7.4 percent of youth in grades 9-12 reported that they had made at least one suicide attempt in the past 12 months. Female students attempted almost twice as often as male students (9.3% vs. 5.1%). Black students reported the highest rate of attempt (9.8%) with white students at 6.1 percent. Approximately 2.4 percent of all students reported making a suicide attempt that
slippy
required treatment by a doctor or nurse. For those requiring treatment, rates were highest for Black students (3.4%).
slippy
Based on the 2017 National Survey of Drug Use and Mental Health it is estimated that 0.6 percent of the adults aged 18 or older made at least one suicide attempt. This translates to approximately 1.4 million adults. Adult females reported a suicide attempt 1.4 times as often as males. Further breakdown by gender and race are not available.
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Sabeena
You are presenting data around distress.
slippy
I am presenting some data related to distress, yes.
Sabeena
Your intuition was about what drives in/outgroup language construction.
Sabeena
I can't be helpful to you if you take any little challenge personally.
Sabeena
I have lost interest in trying.
slippy
"any"
slippy
Yes, our communication has substantial problems.
Sabeena
Shall we call it a day.
Sabeena
fr33, yes! Well done.
slippy
Again, I will allow you to be the leader in these encounters.
Sabeena
But he was speaking more to factional terms like TERF and such.
slippy
(I wonder if you know why I do that.)
Sabeena
(You enjoy allowing me?)
slippy
No.
Sabeena
:p
slippy
I can tell you the reason.
slippy
You can mostly handle it, but it will annoy you somewhat, too.
slippy
I accept you discontinuing the conversation.
slippy
Sabeena: I allow you to lead because you're not as strong or as insightful as I am.
slippy
And if I am my full self with you, it overwhelms you and you frustrated.
slippy
There's good reason to think communication between you and me will not substantially improve, but if it does, it will require me to mirror your level.
slippy
you feel frustrated*
slippy
Sabeena: I put you on ignore for 72 hours for doing a bad job at communication.
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slippy
My constantly mirroring your level will frustrate me and I will resent you for it.
slippy
I already resent you for it, somewhat.