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MoiraWrite
Dec 14th, 2015
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  1. New meguca with a cavalry sword like the one from sharpe. Monsters ranging from "magical hound with shadow magic that nearly ripped her throat out" to oh god what this that" aka: http://img07.deviantart.net/955b/i/2014/181/b/7/wendigo_by_tiffanyturrill-d7opvqf.jpg
  2. [11:38:52 AM] Crasian: Well so
  3. [11:39:02 AM] Crasian: Cavalry swords are designed to cut on the move
  4. [11:39:16 AM] Ugolino: So slashing more than jabbing?
  5. [11:39:21 AM] Crasian: They're for cutting through soft tissue, not for piercing
  6. [11:39:35 AM] Ugolino: How are they for parrying?
  7. [11:40:00 AM] Crasian: As good as any other sword.
  8. [11:40:07 AM] Crasian: Which is to say, it depends on the wielder
  9. [11:40:23 AM] Ugolino: For the Wendigo had her basically get a slash off, managed to deflect the claws of +30 meguca killing, get another slash off and then just get ripped apart by the backhand.
  10. [11:40:32 AM] Crasian: It's more important to understand how the sword works, physically.
  11. [11:40:57 AM] Ugolino: Oh?
  12. [11:41:00 AM] Ugolino: All ears.
  13. [11:41:11 AM] Crasian: Yeah, thinking about how to say this
  14. [11:41:30 AM] Crasian: Like, a sword has three principal modes of operation.
  15. [11:41:46 AM] Crasian: Thrusting, Cutting, and Chopping.
  16. [11:41:52 AM] Crasian: (The last isn't really a mode of operation)
  17. [11:41:58 AM] Nat: also don't forget the pommel strike
  18. [11:42:10 AM] Nat: and holding the sword by the blade and using the pommel as a hammer
  19. [11:42:22 AM] Crasian: (it's really a form of cut, but we tend to think of it differently)
  20. [11:42:22 AM] Nat: (that is totes a legit strat yo)
  21. [11:42:39 AM] Crasian: A cavalry sabre is designed almost entirely for cutting.
  22. [11:43:02 AM] Crasian: The curvature of the blade makes it very difficult to get a good angle for the heavy sort of blow that comes with a chop
  23. [11:43:13 AM] Ugolino: Is a cavalry sword the same as a saber?
  24. [11:43:18 AM] Crasian: And it cannot focus power behind its point properly for the thrust
  25. [11:43:31 AM] Ugolino: http://www.katetattersall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1796P-heavy-cavalry-troopers-sword-hatchet-point.jpg
  26. [11:43:44 AM] Crasian: Okay so
  27. [11:43:45 AM] Ugolino: What'd make sense for fluffing attacks with this kind of sword?
  28. [11:43:46 AM] Crasian: Backing up
  29. [11:44:11 AM | Edited 11:44:15 AM] Ugolino: Also *takes notes*
  30. [11:44:17 AM] Crasian: "cavalry sword" in general refers to "sword used by cavalry", but in most discussions refers to "Napoleonic Cavalry Sabre"
  31. [11:44:35 AM] Crasian: What you have there is called an "arming sword"
  32. [11:44:45 AM] Ugolino: My bad.
  33. [11:45:04 AM] Crasian: Arming Swords are not intended to be primary weapons, but are typically paired with a polearm.
  34. [11:45:42 AM] Crasian: So arming swords are a more generic type of weapon, typically straight, and may be of double or single edge.
  35. [11:45:54 AM] Crasian: They're good for thrusting and some degree of cutting
  36. [11:46:09 AM] Crasian: But their focus is on being drawn and stabbed through someone
  37. [11:46:42 AM | Edited 11:46:59 AM] Ugolino: Well in this case, could >literally (fire) magic make up for the lack of a primary weapon, combat-wise while closing the range? So basically "no elegance, just stab the enemy to death"?
  38. [11:47:17 AM] Crasian: Well, when you say "literally fire"
  39. [11:47:21 AM] Crasian: You mean like, firebender?
  40. [11:47:24 AM] Ugolino: Yeah pretty much
  41. [11:47:35 AM] Ugolino: Not an out and out mage
  42. [11:47:44 AM] Ugolino: but enough to ruin someone's day with FWOOSH.
  43. [11:47:49 AM] Crasian: How fatal is this fire?
  44. [11:48:09 AM] Crasian: The point of an arming sword is to be a backup after you've skewered someone with a spear or something
  45. [11:48:17 AM] Crasian: Or if your spear is shattered in the impact of combat
  46. [11:49:31 AM] Ugolino: Yeah, she can't really pull off anything that discriminate, more generic firebending. I mean it burns- and if it's, say, a vampiric monster covered with fur that burns well, but more generic firebender than a main character-tier
  47. [11:49:52 AM] Crasian: Then I think you won't be able to compensate
  48. [11:49:55 AM] Ugolino: Though what I'm hearing is that I may need to rethink her weapon a bit
  49. [11:50:28 AM] Crasian: The fire isn't going to be sufficiently killy for the arming sword to be super profitable. Arming swords are in the range of 3 feet, from tip to pommel
  50. [11:50:36 AM] Ugolino: Kinda after a sword that while not really lending itself to elegant dueling is more of the "bash them down" design.
  51. [11:50:50 AM] Crasian: Well, so, elegant dueling is largely a myth.
  52. [11:51:07 AM] Crasian: Typically, a swordfight is about leverage and crushing your opponent under your momentum.
  53. [11:51:10 AM] Ugolino: At least not /associated/ with elegant dueling. And mmm.
  54. [11:51:34 AM] Crasian: So yes, rapiers aren't that good for you, but swords in general are not a great pairing with fire that is not immediately and violently deadly.
  55. [11:51:47 AM] Ugolino: That's okay, she's meant to be a screw-up anyway. :V
  56. [11:51:52 AM] Crasian: If you're going that route, a polearm is probably better
  57. [11:51:58 AM] Ugolino: Also napalm blood makes bleeding to death a viable plan of attack.
  58. [11:52:14 AM] Ugolino: Albeit not one she'd intentionally try and pull off.
  59. [11:52:53 AM] Crasian: Sure, but it's still the case that you want a weapon that allows you to kill things with fire integrated as part of the style.
  60. [11:52:56 AM] Ugolino: mmm
  61. [11:53:13 AM] Crasian: If the fire cannot be focused to, say, incinerate a limb
  62. [11:53:31 AM] Crasian: Then it will need to be used for noise, distractions, and theatricality
  63. [11:53:43 AM] Crasian: This is still a powerful tool, because fire is scary
  64. [11:54:12 AM] Crasian: But in that case, you probably want to be using a spear in order to do the actual killing
  65. [11:54:56 AM] Crasian: Alternatively, if the fire is able to actually cause serious damage to an enemy, a sword would probably be fine
  66. [11:55:12 AM] Crasian: Look up "hunting swords" in that case though, because you're still using the sword to "finish off" an enemy.
  67. [11:55:20 AM] Ugolino: Incineration's a thing- or at least nasty charring. Still vague on specifics, but the whole fiery aura/blade thing is well withing her abilities and so's firebending. And got it.
  68. [11:56:21 AM] Ugolino: Just...any suggestions for a kind of less elegant more...functional sword that has connotations less of dueling and more of bashing? Looking for something a bit less unwieldy than a greatsword
  69. [11:56:27 AM] Ugolino: Hunting sword, yeah?
  70. [11:56:54 AM] Crasian: Well
  71. [11:57:05 AM] Crasian: you have a fairly long list potentially
  72. [11:57:27 AM] Crasian: The Falchion is probably what I would call the archetypal "I kill with smash" type of sword-like weapon
  73. [11:57:31 AM] Crasian: Cutlass too
  74. [11:58:30 AM] Crasian: The heavy cavalry swords of the 17th century and 18th century probably
  75. [11:58:46 AM] Crasian: (oh I should mention, there are two types of cut)
  76. [11:58:46 AM] Ugolino: Hmm. Cutlass is nah, almost went with falchion at one point...Yeah, I think those last ones are what I may be after
  77. [11:58:53 AM] Crasian: (The slash, and the draw)
  78. [11:58:55 AM] Ugolino: [11:58 AM] Crasian:
  79.  
  80. <<< The heavy cavalry swords of the 17th century and 18th century probablyI'd be very interested in hearing more about these
  81. [11:59:15 AM] Crasian: (So a slashing cut typically ends up being very circular)
  82. [11:59:21 AM] Crasian: (A drawing cut is typically more triangular)
  83. [12:00:03 PM] Crasian: So straight edged weapons are good at the drawing cut, which is something I forgot to note
  84. [12:00:28 PM] Crasian: And you can see this in things like the Katzbalger, which is focused heavily on the drawing cut by having a very wide, flat blade
  85. [12:00:35 PM] Crasian: This is also something that shows up in say
  86. [12:00:46 PM] Crasian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword#/media/File:Mortuary_sword-Morges.jpg
  87. [12:00:47 PM] Crasian: This
  88. [12:01:23 PM] Ugolino: When you talk about the cuts you mean the shape you make...in front of you with your stroke?
  89. [12:01:32 PM] Crasian: Yes
  90. [12:01:48 PM] Crasian: So when your cutting with a blade, you're swinging typically from top right to bottom left
  91. [12:01:50 PM] Crasian: In a uh
  92. [12:01:59 PM] Crasian: Very very very oversimplified description of how fencing works.
  93. [12:02:02 PM] Crasian: *sword fighting
  94. [12:02:43 PM] Crasian: A drawing cut is typically one where you end up reaching past your target, and your follow through is what does the cutting
  95. [12:02:59 PM] Crasian: Whereas a slashing cut is more of a circular motion, with cutting during the entire swing
  96. [12:03:35 PM] Crasian: So a drawing cut has a sort of distinct triangle it ends up drawing
  97. [12:03:57 PM] Crasian: There's a scholagladiatoria video that deals with this to a certain degree, but I foret which it is.
  98. [12:03:59 PM] WingedKnight: I'm more a fan of polish sabers, myself.
  99. [12:04:13 PM] WingedKnight: Wonderful flowing combat.
  100. [12:04:52 PM] Crasian: Yup, because sabers are curvy and demand slashing cuts
  101. [12:05:00 PM] Crasian: Lots of swirling motion to make that work out
  102. [12:05:21 PM] WingedKnight: That's what I tried to do with Bladedancer. By the way, extended that first story to almost 12,000 words.
  103. [12:05:23 PM] Crasian: Whereas if you watch HEMA videos with the Medieval Longsword, it's very grapply, in close, I smash and then stab things.
  104. [12:05:26 PM] WingedKnight: Works a lot better now.
  105. [12:05:35 PM] WingedKnight: Thank you for your contributions to that, Cras.
  106. [12:05:50 PM] Crasian: Ah, I have forgotten what it is. >>
  107. [12:05:54 PM] Crasian: But you're welcome!
  108. [12:05:57 PM] WingedKnight: My short story.
  109. [12:06:06 PM] WingedKnight: Which I have made into a collection of short stories.
  110. [12:06:07 PM] Ugolino: Appreciate the sword advice.
  111. [12:06:09 PM] Ugolino: Shiny!
  112. [12:06:28 PM] Ugolino: Hmm. At the most generic level, how does combat with a heavy cavalry sword work?
  113. [12:06:42 PM] Crasian: It's going to be about cutting on the draw
  114. [12:06:54 PM] Crasian: As well as the heavy overhead chop
  115. [12:06:58 PM] Ugolino: Yesssssss
  116. [12:07:06 PM] Crasian: Your weapon is relatively heavy, and so you must use its momentum to your advantage.
  117. [12:07:08 PM] Ugolino: Yeah, that sounds about right.
  118. [12:07:19 PM] Crasian: You also venefit greatly from speed
  119. [12:07:24 PM] Ugolino: Yeah this sounds perfect.
  120. [12:07:25 PM] Crasian: The greater your momentum, the better.
  121. [12:07:33 PM] Ugolino: So ideally, you open by...darting in like a battering ram?
  122. [12:07:40 PM] Crasian: Well
  123. [12:07:40 PM] Ugolino: Crash?
  124. [12:07:55 PM] Ugolino: [12:06 PM] Crasian:
  125.  
  126. <<< cutting on the drawHmmm?
  127. [12:08:05 PM] Crasian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tgi-j56ueU&feature=iv&src_vid=l8yOdAqBFcQ&annotation_id=annotation_788493
  128. [12:08:20 PM] Crasian: Cutting on the draw is what I noted earlier
  129. [12:08:27 PM] Crasian: About reaching past your target, and then letting your follow through do the work
  130. [12:08:47 PM] Crasian: In mounted combat you're permanently in the follow through, and letting your horse do the cutting (basically)
  131. [12:08:48 PM] Ugolino: *notes this*
  132. [12:09:04 PM] WingedKnight: Unicorn Clan approves.
  133. [12:09:13 PM] Crasian: But if you watch LOTR, when the Rohirrim are chopping off heads, you'll notice that they pull first, and then flick upwards
  134. [12:09:22 PM] Crasian: Rather than being a single uniform, circular motion.
  135. [12:09:49 PM] Crasian: Er, of course, this is better done with the CGi
  136. [12:09:58 PM] Crasian: The actors themselves can only really pull off the standard smash
  137. [12:10:19 PM] Crasian: But the "chop" is definitely less useful than the properly done drawing cut
  138. [12:10:25 PM] Crasian: Since you're literally just going "I HAVE MASSU"
  139. [12:10:41 PM] Crasian: And you're not really using your weapon to its full potential
  140. [12:11:20 PM] Ugolino: Sounds like something an idiot newbie might do. :D
  141. [12:11:54 PM] WingedKnight: Also, Crasian, because you wanted me to have Adalia show her personality more in her combat in my Bladedancer story...
  142. [12:12:12 PM | Edited 12:12:51 PM] WingedKnight: I have her slapping Kristoff with the flat of her blade a few times, mocking him and trying to get him to quit.
  143. [12:12:17 PM] WingedKnight: First one is on his butt.
  144. [12:12:23 PM] WingedKnight: She touched the butt. :V
  145. [12:12:26 PM] WingedKnight: With her sword.
  146. [12:12:26 PM] Ugolino: pfft
  147. [12:12:27 PM] Ugolino: So someone inexperienced beyond magical aimbot skills would basically overextend themselves by swinging with it?
  148. [12:12:50 PM] Crasian: Well no, overextension is when your footwork is out of place and you need too much time to recover
  149. [12:12:57 PM] Crasian: It's literally the most fatal thing that can happen
  150. [12:13:10 PM] Ugolino: Ah.
  151. [12:13:19 PM] Crasian: it's more likely that they'd have poor footwork and not have good cutting technique, which leads them to be easily unbalanced.
  152. [12:13:31 PM | Edited 12:13:50 PM] WingedKnight: Overcommitting is "Oh shit, I spend about three seconds fixing my fuck up."
  153. [12:13:32 PM] Crasian: This means that they do a lot of "DIEDIEDIE" and "OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT"
  154. [12:13:33 PM] Ugolino: *nod nod*
  155. [12:13:38 PM] WingedKnight: In that time, you are dead.
  156. [12:13:40 PM] Crasian: Back and forth, jumping in and out of combat.
  157. [12:13:48 PM] Crasian: (because meguca)
  158. [12:14:05 PM] Crasian: You can sort of see this in Sayaka's fight with Kyouko
  159. [12:14:33 PM] Crasian: She has a lot of times where she can charge in and do something, but because she has bad footwork and poor technique, Kyouko can easily push Sayaka back onto her heals
  160. [12:14:44 PM] Crasian: (now, Kyouko should really be using her polearm as a polearm, but that aside)
  161. [12:14:44 PM] WingedKnight: Fighting spears as a sword user is a pain in the ass in the best of times, and worse when someone can control freaking snake spears.
  162. [12:15:11 PM] Crasian: Honestly, what Kyouko would have done if she was actually trying to kill Sayaka is terrifyingly simple
  163. [12:15:13 PM] Crasian: Stand still
  164. [12:15:15 PM] Crasian: Let Sayaka charge
  165. [12:15:23 PM] Crasian: Bat tip of sword away
  166. [12:15:28 PM] Crasian: Plunge spear into Sayaka's abdomen
  167. [12:15:30 PM] Ugolino: oof
  168. [12:15:34 PM] Crasian: Push through, and then pull
  169. [12:15:36 PM] WingedKnight: Kyouko didn't look serious about doing that.
  170. [12:15:41 PM] Crasian: Sayaka has now been literally gutted
  171. [12:15:47 PM | Edited 12:16:00 PM] WingedKnight: Mostly, I think she just wanted to scare Sayaka away.
  172. [12:15:48 PM] Crasian: Coup de grace with a beheading
  173. [12:15:52 PM] WingedKnight: But Ugo is stubborn.
  174. [12:15:54 PM] WingedKnight: :V
  175. [12:15:57 PM] Ugolino: :V
  176. [12:16:40 PM] Ugolino: So a cavalry sword works best for "overhead chopping" and a drawing cut? What doesn't it work well for?
  177. [12:16:47 PM] Crasian: Stabbing
  178. [12:16:50 PM] Crasian: Oddly
  179. [12:16:55 PM] Crasian: But cavalry swords have rounded tips
  180. [12:17:03 PM] Ugolino: Thanks, by the way, this is a very interesting and useful set of facts.
  181. [12:17:14 PM] Ugolino: *notes to have the guca try stabbing next fight*
  182. [12:17:16 PM] Crasian: pft
  183. [12:17:20 PM] Crasian: But yeah
  184. [12:17:22 PM] WingedKnight: You want a good monster sword for cutting, you should go Kriegsmesser.
  185. [12:17:30 PM] Crasian: Flamberge!
  186. [12:17:43 PM] WingedKnight: Kriegsmesser4lyfe.
  187. [12:17:57 PM] Crasian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword
  188. [12:18:05 PM] Crasian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword#/media/File:Dresden-Zwinger-Armoury-Sword.04.JPG
  189. [12:18:22 PM] Ugolino: I /almost/ want to go for that just for the amazingly lazy joke
  190. [12:18:24 PM] Ugolino: Almost
  191. [12:18:28 PM] Ugolino: Ah well.
  192. [12:18:43 PM] Ugolino: But yeah, using your suggestion Cras :)
  193. [12:18:53 PM] WingedKnight: @Crasian: Bah, my beloved War Knife is sexier. :V
  194. [12:18:54 PM] WingedKnight: http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/files/products/11005A.jpg
  195. [12:20:04 PM] WingedKnight: By the way, Germans are quite direct with naming swords.
  196. [12:20:08 PM] Crasian: Bah, I remember it being really obvious in one of the cavalry scenes in LOTR
  197. [12:20:13 PM] Crasian: The sort of drawing flick
  198. [12:20:20 PM] WingedKnight: Kriegsmesser literally means "War Knife."
  199. [12:20:43 PM] Crasian: Huh
  200. [12:20:45 PM] Crasian: Interesting design
  201. [12:20:52 PM] Crasian: I guess it's a type of arming sword?
  202. [12:21:01 PM] WingedKnight: Bit heavier than that.
  203. [12:21:29 PM] WingedKnight: It's like if a falchion and a saber had a baby.
  204. [12:21:35 PM] WingedKnight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messer_(weapon)
  205. [12:21:37 PM] Crasian: Oh I see
  206. [12:21:41 PM] Crasian: Yes I just found the article
  207. [12:22:11 PM] WingedKnight: Also, I just love the design and can imagine what the germans were thinking.
  208. [12:22:16 PM] WingedKnight: "We need a better hand guard..."
  209. [12:22:20 PM] WingedKnight: "Just put a spike on it."
  210. [12:22:23 PM] WingedKnight: "Brilliant!"
  211. [12:22:26 PM] WingedKnight: ^_^
  212. [12:23:05 PM] Ugolino: pfft
  213. [12:23:16 PM] Ugolino: ITT: swords swords swords :D
  214. [12:23:51 PM] Crasian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi6MhDFDSAc
  215. [12:23:53 PM] Crasian: Blah
  216. [12:23:58 PM] Crasian: I've done this poorly
  217. [12:24:04 PM] Crasian: But here's a scholgladiatoria
  218. [12:24:47 PM] Crasian: Also today I have learned that I fucked up twice
  219. [12:25:02 PM] Crasian: Apparently the "chop" is not what I called it
  220. [12:25:08 PM] Crasian: Or rather, the nomenclature is not what I thought it was
  221. [12:25:09 PM] WingedKnight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4pRjraprFo
  222. [12:25:10 PM] Ugolino: Hmm?
  223. [12:26:03 PM] Ugolino: At the risk of silly questions, what's a pretty iconic cavalry sword of the type you mentioned earlier?
  224. [12:26:05 PM] Crasian: So Scholagladiatoria demonstrates that what is apparently a "chop" in Proper Nomenclature is actually a tip-based cut
  225. [12:26:09 PM] Ugolino: Ah.
  226. [12:26:41 PM] Crasian: So you're using maximum speed at the tip of the blade in order to get a good cut
  227. [12:26:55 PM] Crasian: But anyway, cavalry swords?
  228. [12:27:34 PM] Crasian: Hmm
  229. [12:27:59 PM] Crasian: Well those links I gave earlier are pretty typical of Western Europe
  230. [12:29:15 PM] Ugolino: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/58/8d/05/588d0522eb98d47de07ffe1ed90e476e.jpg ?
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