padz's ultimate plan

luckytyphlosion Dec 6th, 2017 118 Never
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  1. [9:31 PM] luckytyphlosion:
  3. [9:31 PM] luckytyphlosion: this is gold
  4. [9:32 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: ps: not banned from pokeemerald
  5. [9:32 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: take that padz :smirk:
  6. [9:32 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: pls merge my PR
  7. [9:33 PM] luckytyphlosion: btw @padz I think most romhackers are too focused on making their own world, rather than actually designing a good game, so I can see how much the community is resistant to change
  8. [9:33 PM] luckytyphlosion: nobody even thinks of gen 1-2 disasms as a concept in pokecommunity
  9. [9:34 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: mainly because you dont write guides for them
  10. [9:34 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: z80 howtos
  11. [9:35 PM] ShantyTown: Was padz joking, or is there some issue I'm unaware of?(edited)
  12. [9:35 PM] padz: pokecommunity is bad(edited)
  13. [9:36 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: i once said in pokecommunity our project for pokeemerald/ruby is like a bunch of farmers building a barn and everyone else is an animal unaware of the actual true significance of that barn
  14. [9:36 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: they just want to eat grass
  15. [9:36 PM] padz: i was half joking about the ban, but in retrospect i should have followed through
  16. [9:36 PM] luckytyphlosion: romhacking is basically a bunch of mapping, tilesetting and shitposting
  17. [9:36 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: im only there to see our justified dislike of the shitposts of their discord
  18. [9:37 PM] luckytyphlosion: although the pokeemerald meme wobb made was pretty good
  19. [9:37 PM] luckytyphlosion: I'm there because I get to shitpost there :smirk:
  20. [9:37 PM] padz: the line of thought is 'hacking is hard so if i spend time helping other people ill never finish my hack'
  21. [9:37 PM] luckytyphlosion: #game-dev is probably the closest thing to your idealized version of #rom-hacking
  22. [9:37 PM] padz: when the reality is 'if we dont stop repeating work no one will ever finish a hack'
  23. [9:37 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: pokecommunity once stood as an actual collection of devoted rom hackers, then those hackers left, and everyone follows guides rather than builds on top of it
  24. [9:37 PM] Doesnt: i left pc discord because i kept getting PMs from weird strangers
  25. [9:37 PM] luckytyphlosion: @padz gee I've done romhacking the exact opposite way
  26. [9:37 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: it has ceased evolution
  27. [9:37 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: and thats bad
  28. [9:37 PM] Doesnt: asking for help
  29. [9:38 PM] luckytyphlosion: when I started romhacking, it was me testing around with pokered
  30. [9:38 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: i define the end of the Early Era of Pokecommunity as when HackMew left
  31. [9:38 PM] luckytyphlosion: I basically had to learn gbz80 with little to no help
  32. [9:38 PM] luckytyphlosion: or guides
  33. [9:38 PM] padz: @ProjectRevoTPP no, that never happened
  34. [9:38 PM] padz: it was always bad
  35. [9:38 PM] padz: from the very beginning
  36. [9:38 PM] padz: thats why it is a mystery that it is still around
  37. [9:40 PM] luckytyphlosion: I think we'd get more traffic to pokecrystal if one of us made a tutorial for pokecrystal centered around "learning asm"
  38. [9:40 PM] padz: dont really need traffic, but teaching people would be good
  39. [9:40 PM] luckytyphlosion: ya
  40. [9:40 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: im serious though padz: what i meant is that there was more of an effort to establish and use guides and information back then
  41. [9:41 PM] luckytyphlosion: but the people who know the disasm in and out are too lazy, too busy or too unmotivated
  42. [9:41 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: but nowadays everyone in pokecommunity just follows the existing guides instead of doing anything new whatsoever
  43. [9:41 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: it went from bad to worse
  44. [9:41 PM] luckytyphlosion: a lot of asm hacks are kind of like libraries, where you just pull whatever you need
  45. [9:41 PM] luckytyphlosion: like there are credits for the asm hacks used
  46. [9:43 PM] luckytyphlosion: egg is probably the closest to pokecommunity
  47. [9:43 PM] ShantyTown: Is the goal of pret to enable better ROM hacks, though?  It's certainly a nice side effect if it isn't the goal.  My motivations are mainly just that I find this stuff fun to work on.
  48. [9:43 PM] luckytyphlosion: it is
  49. [9:43 PM] luckytyphlosion: having a file system will be a big enough motivation to switch
  50. [9:44 PM] luckytyphlosion: rather than having to look for free space
  51. [9:44 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: yeah no more pointers or free space
  52. [9:44 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: insert whatever you want and recompile
  53. [9:44 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: makes hacking 1000x easier
  54. [9:44 PM] luckytyphlosion: the idea of compiling to executable is intriguing
  55. [9:44 PM] padz: @ProjectRevoTPP no it was exactly the same back then
  56. [9:45 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: i disagree
  57. [9:45 PM] padz: were you there
  58. [9:45 PM] luckytyphlosion: @ProjectRevoTPP binary hacking (at least with bgb debugger) is pretty exhausting, even with the disasm
  59. [9:45 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: were you?
  60. [9:45 PM] padz: yes
  61. [9:45 PM] luckytyphlosion: was diego part of the community back then?
  62. [9:46 PM] padz: this was around 2004
  63. [9:46 PM] ShantyTown: that's a long time ago
  64. [9:46 PM] padz: i think diego showed up around 2010 give or take a couple years(edited)
  65. [9:47 PM] luckytyphlosion: so you're the only one that existed back then that's in pret?
  66. [9:47 PM] luckytyphlosion: what about egg
  67. [9:47 PM] padz: iimarckus
  68. [9:47 PM] padz: egg is really new
  69. [9:47 PM] luckytyphlosion: but he's not in here
  70. [9:47 PM] padz: i think kanzure as well
  71. [9:47 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: egg is a non-shit pokecommunity member though
  72. [9:47 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: look how much pokeemerald work he's done
  73. [9:47 PM] luckytyphlosion: only thing shit about egg is his shitposts :smirk:
  74. [9:48 PM] luckytyphlosion: example
  76. [9:49 PM] luckytyphlosion: idk how much spoonfeeding do we need to do
  77. [9:49 PM] ShantyTown: Who runs skeetendo forums now?  I haven't seen IIMarckus in a long time
  78. [9:49 PM] padz: still does
  79. [9:50 PM] luckytyphlosion: well it's now or something
  80. [9:50 PM] padz: always has been
  81. [9:50 PM] luckytyphlosion: or
  82. [9:50 PM] luckytyphlosion: or wait does that work
  83. [9:50 PM] padz:
  84. [9:50 PM] luckytyphlosion: oh I just suck at spelling's name
  85. [9:51 PM] luckytyphlosion: but anyway, we'd definitely need to spoonfed pokecommunity for the initial push to decomp hacks
  86. [9:51 PM] padz: i could be wrong but i think the entry barrier is largely fundamental
  87. [9:51 PM] luckytyphlosion: and add some transitional guides
  88. [9:51 PM] Shinny: spoonfeeding was the problem in the first place
  89. [9:51 PM] padz: i think the correct approach is to make pokecommunity irrelevant
  90. [9:51 PM] luckytyphlosion: that's not possible and you know it
  91. [9:51 PM] padz: sure it is
  92. [9:51 PM] luckytyphlosion: unless you mean "irrelevant in terms of 'where to go for romhacks'"
  93. [9:51 PM] padz: yes
  94. [9:51 PM] luckytyphlosion: then that's possible
  95. [9:52 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: we tried spoonfeeding before: baby turned its head and screamed more
  96. [9:52 PM] padz: im not interested in converting people(edited)
  97. [9:52 PM] ProjectRevoTPP:
  99. [9:52 PM] luckytyphlosion: can you explain that analogy
  100. [9:52 PM] padz: rather find people who have not been corrupted yet
  101. [9:52 PM] luckytyphlosion: wow you sound like I was lucky for falling into PSR and not pokecommunity
  102. [9:53 PM] padz: yes
  103. [9:53 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: padz legit though there are some people there that have helped out before: like Bela
  104. [9:54 PM] padz: so
  105. [9:54 PM] ProjectRevoTPP:
  106. [9:54 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: so not everyone's a shit head
  107. [9:54 PM] padz: so
  108. [9:54 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: so not everyone's a shit head
  109. [9:54 PM] padz: the problem is the culture
  110. [9:55 PM] luckytyphlosion: I don't think the "do it just for yourself" culture here is any better though
  111. [9:56 PM] padz: not sure what you mean
  112. [9:56 PM] luckytyphlosion: there aren't any guides for using pokered or pokecrystal
  113. [9:56 PM] luckytyphlosion: other than install.MD
  114. [9:56 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: yeah, so they can't "do it for yourself"
  115. [9:56 PM] Doesnt: most of it is self-explanatory
  116. [9:56 PM] luckytyphlosion: not really
  117. [9:56 PM] padz: ok, are you gonna write it
  118. [9:56 PM] padz: its not because anyone thinks its beneath them
  119. [9:56 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: i only recently published a pokeruby guide, nothing like a guide to use a dism has existed before recent
  120. [9:56 PM] luckytyphlosion: ^
  121. [9:56 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: on pokecommunity
  122. [9:56 PM] luckytyphlosion: oh
  123. [9:57 PM] luckytyphlosion: but ya the disasm people aren't motivated enough to make a guide
  124. [9:57 PM] padz: its just that fixing problems with the disassembly usually has a better return than 'how to put up with shitty bugs'
  125. [9:57 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: i think the question of spoonfeeding isnt that could we, it's should we
  126. [9:57 PM] luckytyphlosion: :thinking:
  127. [9:58 PM] luckytyphlosion: wonder if you could make a curriculum for using gen 3 decomps :thinking:
  128. [9:58 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: im not even sure how many people have used this since there's no reply posts
  129. The PokéCommunity
  130. [Tutorial] [Dissassembly] Setting up and using the Pokeruby dissassembly
  131. See the discussion at PokéCommunity!
  133. [9:58 PM] luckytyphlosion: and format that into a video series
  134. [9:58 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: oh come on, i said spoon feed, not tablespoon
  135. [9:58 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: im not (that) hand holding
  136. [9:58 PM] luckytyphlosion: tablespoon?
  137. [9:59 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: teaspoons, not tablespoons
  138. [9:59 PM] luckytyphlosion: the guide is infinitely better than any guide I've posted about using a disasm/decomp
  139. [9:59 PM] luckytyphlosion: because I've made none
  140. [9:59 PM] luckytyphlosion: idk maybe wait until pokeemerald/pokeruby is usable
  141. [9:59 PM] luckytyphlosion: like usable enough to make a hack
  142. [9:59 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: my plan on "spoonfeeding" PC the disms was to make a collection of guides and introductions to the subsystems of gen 3 via the C structures
  143. [10:00 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: and then link all of those guides together in a pinned compilation post
  144. [10:00 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: as well as resources for learning C
  145. [10:00 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: and the tools developed for pokeruby/emeralkd
  146. [10:00 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: emerald
  147. [10:00 PM] luckytyphlosion: my ideal guide would be you leading by example
  148. [10:00 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: sort of post so many guides favorable to making hard changes easier that it takes steam away from traditional hacking
  149. [10:00 PM] Gamer2020: I don't think you could call it a hack at that point :p
  150. [10:00 PM] luckytyphlosion: like "1. setting up pokeruby"
  151. "2. doing some common feature change"
  152. "3. something else"
  153. etc.
  154. [10:00 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: and just hope it lends to long term changes to PC
  155. [10:01 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: but it might not
  156. [10:01 PM] padz: @luckytyphlosion you are also overlooking all the 1 on 1
  157. [10:01 PM] padz: especially prior to pokeruby(edited)
  158. [10:01 PM] luckytyphlosion: "Let's Hack PokeRuby Episode #1"
  159. [10:01 PM] luckytyphlosion: something like that
  160. [10:01 PM] Gamer2020: Pc <> ROM hacking
  161. [10:01 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: define <>
  162. [10:01 PM] luckytyphlosion: !=?(edited)
  163. [10:02 PM] Doesnt: instructions unclear please put it on youtube
  164. [10:02 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: oh
  165. [10:02 PM] Gamer2020: Yes !=
  166. [10:02 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: hipster !=
  167. [10:02 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: :smirk:
  168. [10:02 PM] luckytyphlosion: use !=
  169. [10:02 PM] luckytyphlosion: @Gamer2020 okay then, PC romhacking culture
  170. [10:03 PM] luckytyphlosion: how long until this devolves into teaching theory anyway
  171. [10:05 PM] luckytyphlosion: anyway I think the goal is to teach people how to apply, not how to do
  172. [10:05 PM] luckytyphlosion: pokecommunity right now doesn't teach romhackers how to apply, because in fairness there isn't really anything to apply
  173. [10:05 PM] luckytyphlosion: but I guess that stigma has stayed
  174. [10:06 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: its a hard to kill stigma at best, i agree
  175. [10:06 PM] Doesnt: teach people to apply themselves
  176. [10:06 PM] Doesnt: not just how
  177. [10:06 PM] luckytyphlosion: apply themselves?
  178. [10:06 PM] padz: how do you do that
  179. [10:06 PM] Doesnt: that's the question
  180. [10:06 PM] padz: hard enough teaching that to a blank slate
  181. [10:06 PM] padz: i really think mentorship is the only way
  182. [10:06 PM] luckytyphlosion: :thinking: padz running a class for pokeruby
  183. [10:06 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: pls
  184. [10:07 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: Professor Padz telling at the squabble class to sit down and stop snickering
  185. [10:07 PM] luckytyphlosion: maybe you just need to be naturally inclined to like this kind of stuff
  186. [10:07 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: i can see that :smirk:
  187. [10:07 PM] luckytyphlosion: "stop making memes wobb"
  188. [10:07 PM] padz: definitely
  189. [10:07 PM] luckytyphlosion: "egg don't encourage him"
  190. [10:07 PM] padz: especially since if you just want to make pokemon game x you should be using pokemon-unity or something
  191. [10:07 PM] padz: or preferably a totally new game, but i wont hold it against people for not having confidence
  192. [10:08 PM] padz: a culture of mentorship could work if everyone mentored someone, but that is difficult in practice without an entry barrier
  193. [10:08 PM] luckytyphlosion: with or without?
  194. [10:09 PM] padz: and if you make mentorship the barrier, it becomes a chicken and egg problem
  195. [10:09 PM] luckytyphlosion: I mean, @i0brendan0 was pretty dum with pokecrystal, but already he's starting to help out other people
  196. [10:10 PM] padz: if you have too many new people, you also dont have enough mentors
  197. [10:10 PM] padz: so growth has to be very slow
  198. [10:10 PM] padz: which is a problem, because you also lose people on the other side
  199. [10:11 PM] padz: so i think the diffuse groups of people running with an idea like 'lets disassemble the whole game' and eventually petering out is probably fundamental
  200. [10:16 PM] i0brendan0: Hey. I had been away from hacking for a long time. I'm also a person who needs verification before I commit to something. so even if I end up doing the right thing if I can get verification before actually doing something I kinda have to.
  201. [10:17 PM] ShantyTown: Are there any cases of mentoring in the last few years in pret? I don't recall seeing any 1-on-1 mentoring
  202. [10:17 PM] luckytyphlosion: don't think so
  203. [10:17 PM] padz: i havent been very good at carrying the torch but i was mentored
  204. [10:17 PM] luckytyphlosion: most mentoring was just asking questions
  205. [10:17 PM] luckytyphlosion: I think I need to create the torch
  206. [10:17 PM] luckytyphlosion: but I was never motivated to write guides
  207. [10:17 PM] i0brendan0: Padz (or someone else) actually helped me truly get started with asm. Once I finally figured out a couple commands the rest fell into place.
  208. [10:18 PM] padz: thats another thing. i think you lose motivation to mentor people once youve done it a couple times
  209. [10:18 PM] i0brendan0: You hear "how do I do this thing you've taught 10 other people to do?
  210. [10:18 PM] i0brendan0: A lot
  211. [10:18 PM] padz: no, even if the subject is different
  212. [10:19 PM] Shinny: what causes the loss of motivation, padz(edited)
  213. [10:19 PM] padz: maybe it comes back with time(edited)
  214. [10:19 PM] luckytyphlosion: I'd definitely want to make a video guide of some sort for pokecrystal before I retire from gbz80 though
  215. [10:21 PM] luckytyphlosion: @padz it could be that the idea of using a source over tools isn't normalized yet
  216. [10:21 PM] luckytyphlosion: we could more aggressively market pret
  217. [10:21 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: there needs to be a couple of hacks that normalize it
  218. [10:21 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: aggressive is not wise
  219. [10:21 PM] padz: ^
  220. [10:21 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: prism was aggressively "marketed"
  221. [10:21 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: look what happened
  222. [10:21 PM] luckytyphlosion: the only disasm hack that aren't minihacks or enhancements is prism
  223. [10:21 PM] padz: also, it wont convince anyone
  224. [10:22 PM] ShantyTown: that's not true?
  225. [10:22 PM] luckytyphlosion: I guess there's orange and bronze 2 but those aren't complete
  226. [10:22 PM] luckytyphlosion: oh yeah tppcrystal
  227. [10:22 PM] luckytyphlosion: but l o l
  228. [10:22 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: padz you don't know that for sure
  229. [10:22 PM] padz: ive seen it enough times(edited)
  230. [10:22 PM] luckytyphlosion: tppcrystal barely passes as an original hack
  231. [10:22 PM] ShantyTown: what about red++ polished crystal
  232. [10:22 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: doesn't matter: you're not a psychic
  233. [10:22 PM] luckytyphlosion: those are enhancements
  234. [10:22 PM] ShantyTown: ..
  235. [10:22 PM] ShantyTown: I don't think so
  236. [10:22 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: the question is whether it will convert enough people to be meaningful or worth it
  237. [10:23 PM] padz: if you are holding onto some belief that people are on the cusp of realizing that their way of thinking was wrong, and you just need to push harder, look no further than politics to see why thats wrong(edited)
  238. thonk1
  239. [10:23 PM] luckytyphlosion: @ShantyTown where's your youtube tutorial for pokered
  240. [10:24 PM] luckytyphlosion: I told someone to use pokered to modify sprites
  241. [10:24 PM] ShantyTown: on youtube
  242. [10:24 PM] ShantyTown:
  243. YouTube
  244. Shanty Town
  245. Install pokered disassembly (Windows)
  248. [10:24 PM] padz: should be the first result
  249. [10:25 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: it is
  250. [10:25 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: search "pokered disassembly"
  251. [10:25 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: first result
  252. [10:25 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: on youtube
  253. [10:26 PM] padz: i think the only real problem with pokeruby install is the c++ redist
  254. [10:26 PM] padz: that needs to go
  255. [10:28 PM] ProjectRevoTPP: @ShantyTown you forgot to mention that gcc-core is needed as well i think
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