<ChristianCommie> the point is to figure out distribution of goods without needing a market
<ChristianCommie> right, derivatives of the material economy
<StephenLynx> only if you implement a dictatorship and force people to produce for a system that distribute goods.
<gnostikoi[m]> Fundamentally, the issue is who is in control of the resources. A lucky few who use the resources to increase their own wealth, or the people, who use the resources to care for the people in a sustainable way.
<StephenLynx> otherwise people will ALWAYS do their own thing if they believe it to be a better deal.
<ChristianCommie> StephenLynx it can be made totally open and visible, everyone will know everything what everyone else has
<StephenLynx> of course.
<ChristianCommie> we do this with bitcoin, we can do it with real goods
<StephenLynx> but you still have to force them to participate.
<StephenLynx> if you don't want a market involved.
<gnostikoi[m]> I don't think there needs to be any forced labor. I think we could provide for the people's needs using a very small amount of labor. SO all the labor could be voluntary.
<ChristianCommie> you can give them an aleternative, a rival system or a cooperative one
<ChristianCommie> the point is, this is a political question
<ChristianCommie> not an economic one
<gnostikoi[m]> I also think there will still be markets, but that most land/resources should be controlled by the state.
<StephenLynx> and what you do when your system falls behind?
<ChristianCommie> how?
<gnostikoi[m]> NOT as a means to an anarchist end, as Marx called for, but as the final phase of socialism.
<StephenLynx> why would your system be competitive?
<StephenLynx> why wouldn't people go for the alternatives?
<gnostikoi[m]> because the current system sucks for almost everyone, and is unsustainable
<ChristianCommie> StephenLynx because at the very end, we can agree on a particular profit rate, cause everyone will know what to do, management will be made trivial through cybernetic control, and assholes who want to gouge profits will be ostracized
<StephenLynx> and yet no one won a competition against it. the masses don't call for a fundamental change.
<ChristianCommie> pure and simple
<[k00l]shamoanjac> lol @
<[k00l]shamoanjac> whos here
<[k00l]shamoanjac> if it isn't
<[k00l]shamoanjac> StephenLynx
<[k00l]shamoanjac> the one and unique
<[k00l]shamoanjac> also meghaasdoodzo, you've been in here for over two years now
<StephenLynx> assholes who want to gouge profits will be ostracized? but that doesn't happen in the real world.
<gnostikoi[m]> The profit motive turns people into monsters.
<[k00l]shamoanjac> still not a commie?
<[k00l]shamoanjac> damn
<gnostikoi[m]> StephenLynx: The masses are deluded.
<[k00l]shamoanjac> I've bee in leftypol and related
<[k00l]shamoanjac> for fucking three years now
<[k00l]shamoanjac> feels bad man
<[k00l]shamoanjac> three years ago I had a happy life
<ChristianCommie> StephenLynx the masses right now don't have the capacity to grasp what they want because they are muddleheaded
<ChristianCommie> with sportsball
<ChristianCommie> and Kardashians
<ChristianCommie> and pills
<gnostikoi[m]>  /leftypol/: not even once.
<gnostikoi[m]> the board is kinda shit these days anyway, and so is chan/forum culture in general. I'm pretty much done with it
<ChristianCommie> I wonder where bkeys is
<gnostikoi[m]> ChristianCommie: yup
<StephenLynx> ok, i'd like to establish a point before proceeding: there will be no change until the masses get on board. do you both agree with that?
<ChristianCommie> sure
<StephenLynx> how do you intend to gain their support?
<ChristianCommie> here's a good idea StephenLynx: eminnet domain of MoP
<gnostikoi[m]> amen StephenLynx
<ChristianCommie> most people are patriotic, and want the system to work
<ChristianCommie> so here's an idea
<gnostikoi[m]> ChristianCommie: Would it be a "to each according to their contribution" system?
<ChristianCommie> let me tell you what happened
<StephenLynx> that is subjective.
<ChristianCommie> there was this one dude in my state of Illinois who appealed to his local congressman to rebid a DoD contract
<ChristianCommie> and the congressman helped him out
<StephenLynx> you can't measure contribution in most places in modern economy.
<ChristianCommie> k
<ChristianCommie> you can and I will tell you how
<gnostikoi[m]> yes I agree StephenLynx , that's why it should be a "to each according to their need" system
<ChristianCommie> the contract put that factory the guy had on the map
<StephenLynx> which people don't support.
<StephenLynx> we are kinda stuck on how to get people on board.
<ChristianCommie> StephenLynx will you listen please?
<StephenLynx> i am.
<ChristianCommie> k
<gnostikoi[m]> Power should be earned through merit, but that shouldn't entitle one to greater wealth.
<ChristianCommie> the contract was rebid through the Buy American Act of 2003, I think
<StephenLynx> power brings power. wealth is just what people go after when they get power.
<StephenLynx> is not that people are entitled to wealth, is that if they have power, there is no one to stop them.
<ChristianCommie> and when that happened, 5-6 years later, to thank the congressman and by transitivity, the people of the state of illinois, he moved his factory 8 miles down across the border to Indiana
<ChristianCommie> the asshole
<gnostikoi[m]> Anyone caught leveraging their position to gain wealth would be imprisoned.
<StephenLynx> by whom?
<ChristianCommie> so if you take a govt contract, and you pull this sort of shit, your business should be seized
<gnostikoi[m]> The state.
<ChristianCommie> or at the very least, assessed and bought out
<[k00l]shamoanjac> <gnostikoi[m]> the board is kinda shit these days anyway, and so is chan/forum culture in general. I'm pretty much done with it
<StephenLynx> and who are the state?
<ChristianCommie> by your workforce
<[k00l]shamoanjac> you've been done with it for the past two years man
<[k00l]shamoanjac> StephenLynx: you've been lurking in here for years
<StephenLynx> ChristianCommie, what was your whole point with that anecdote?
<[k00l]shamoanjac> and you still don't understand jackshit about Communism
<[k00l]shamoanjac> this says something about the number of digits of your IQ
<StephenLynx> and communists don't understand jackshit about reality.
<gnostikoi[m]> actually I've posted quite a bit for the last year or so [k00l]shamoanjac
<StephenLynx> im not arguing about communism specifically here.
<StephenLynx> but about people and transforming society.
<ChristianCommie> the point was that you can fix the overwhelming power that capitalists have over their community when they threaten to move, by letting them move, but also buying them out at a subsidized loan
<gnostikoi[m]> You think I don't understand anything about communism [k00l]shamoanjac ? Please. I reject most of Marxism precisely because I DO understand it.
<StephenLynx> ChristianCommie, ok, and how is that related to how you get people on board with our proposition?
<ChristianCommie> cause the cost of unemployment is much higher to the state and the local community than the private profits of the businessman
<ChristianCommie> people want jobs
<gnostikoi[m]> Let them move! Good riddance!
<ChristianCommie> but if owners are assholes, we need to curb that
<ChristianCommie> we can assess him a fair value of his business and buy him out
<[k00l]shamoanjac> <gnostikoi[m]> You think I don't understand anything about communism [k00l]shamoanjac ? Please. I reject most of Marxism precisely because I DO understand it.
<[k00l]shamoanjac> I wasn't talking about you
<[k00l]shamoanjac> but now that you talk
<StephenLynx> and you intend to do that?
<[k00l]shamoanjac> it's funny because every single person that claims to be against Marxism because they understand it, invariably prove that they, in fact, don't
<StephenLynx> to argue to people that they should go with your idea because of that?
<StephenLynx> your idea being communism or something else?
<ChristianCommie> StephenLynx the point is, my idea is good fer the entire community, not just the business owners and capitalists
<gnostikoi[m]> [k00l]shamoanjac: LTV is wrong.
<StephenLynx> im not talking if it's good or not.
<StephenLynx> im talking if people would support it or not.
<[k00l]shamoanjac> lmao gnostikoi[m]
<[k00l]shamoanjac> le marginal meme?
<ChristianCommie> workers and management hate being pushed around, there are more WORKERS AND MANAGERS than OWNERS
<gnostikoi[m]> Labor is but one of the factors of production.
<[k00l]shamoanjac> le owners paid for the material non-argument?
<[k00l]shamoanjac> wrong
<StephenLynx> back to what I just asked you, you intend to convince people to support communism with that argument?
<[k00l]shamoanjac> it's labor all the way down
<gnostikoi[m]> [k00l]shamoanjac: LTV is the meme
<ChristianCommie> what is the problem guys?
<[k00l]shamoanjac> great arguments against LTV
<[k00l]shamoanjac> >LTV is wromng
<[k00l]shamoanjac> >LTV is a meme
<[k00l]shamoanjac> k
<ChristianCommie> LTV is actually the flip side of supply and demand
<ChristianCommie> because people create the demand and people create the value
<[k00l]shamoanjac> the two coexist
<ChristianCommie> regardless of what tools are used
<gnostikoi[m]> Dude, I could find a hunk of gold in my backyard by chance, and sell it for money. It didn't require any labor time to produce, and yet it has value. Riddle me that.
<[k00l]shamoanjac> LTV by itself doesn't explain final exchanges any more than supply and demand does