<Corporation|back> okay, a question
<Corporation|back> is it a good idea for a country to send a memo to another country asking them to reform
<Corporation|back> but do nothing else?
<Corporation|back> Would the mere act of sending a memo serve as enough democracy promotion that you need to do no more?
<Nuklearni-okurka> who do you want to send a memo to
<Retro> if you send a country a memo that says "hey please reform" that's not getting involved
<Retro> all it does is establish your stance on the matter
<Retro> it does jack shit for them
<Retro> both in terms of influence and actually assisting whatever process you're requesting
<Kidiri> But what if you deliver the memo by means of armed forces?
<Retro> it's polite but utterly utterly ineffective
<Retro> <A!exor> Servant: Look, I know /you/ think sending a democratic memo is easy, but /I/ can't do it. I started but it was too hard.
* Retro is now known as Retro-AG]
<Kidiri> !whine being Czech
<Retro-AG> <A!exor> Kidiri: I just don't think I have the patience to get better at being Czech.
<Nuklearni-okurka> nobody of you could do it
<Nuklearni-okurka> no one of you is brave enough to be Czech
<Corporation|back> Retro-AG: I just thought that if people like promoting democracy
<Corporation|back> then you could do so cheaply
<Corporation|back> by sending a memo
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<Corporation|back> intervening in a country's internal affairs would be a violation of natsov after all
<Retro-AG> that's not actually promoting democracy
<Retro-AG> it's saying "hey please do this"
<Retro-AG> do you know what democracy is
<Corporation|back> The government where people vote for their elite
<Corporation|back> to govern them
<Retro-AG> so how is country B sending a memo asking for country A to do something democratic
<Retro-AG> or 'promoting democracy'
<Corporation|back> Promoting democracy is different from imposing democracy or trying to overthrow governments
<Corporation|back> It's like creating an ad for what you want to do
<Corporation|back> you put that ad all over the place
<Corporation|back> and thus promote your product
<Corporation|back> That is different from activvely to coerce people to buy your product.
<Retro-AG> that is the stupidest thing
<Retro-AG> what you're talking about is basically like
<Retro-AG> a 'raising awareness for democracy' campaign
<Retro-AG> and it wouldn't actually make Country B any more democratic
<Retro-AG> sending a letter wouldn't count as democratic action at all
<Retro-AG> or country a rather
<Retro-AG> and hell the people of Country A would probably never even know about it
<Retro-AG> like what do you expect to happen
<Retro-AG> Country A government officials get a note that's like "hey please reform"
<Retro-AG> and they think "hey man this sounds like a promotion of democracy"
<Corporation|back> Retro-AG: The thing is though, all I have hard is democracy promotion
<Retro-AG> "have we tried that yet?"
<Corporation|back> *heard
<Retro-AG> "ok guys from now on we are a democracy
<Retro-AG> "
<Retro-AG> what do you mean 'all i have heard'
<Corporation|back> But at the same time, people are advocating for extreme policies
<Kidiri> Let's call the Flex to settle this argument. =3
<Corporation|back> that would interfere with NatSov
<Corporation|back> and make the Country angry at you
<Corporation|back> Sending a polite memo for change is a way to ensure that democracy is being promoted
<Retro-AG> sending a memo from government-to-government, or even something public like the head of a country going on TV and saying that Country A has to start reforming is not democracy
<Corporation|back> without violating NatSov or causing the Country you're doing the "promoting" on angy at you
<Retro-AG> it has fuck all to do with democracy
<Retro-AG> it's just supporting a position
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<Retro-AG> <Corporation|back> Sending a polite memo for change is a way to ensure that democracy is being promoted <-- this sentence is inaccurate and you're an idiot for thinking it's not
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<Retro-AG> DEAR IDI AMIN
<Retro-AG> WE HEAR YOU ARE KILLING PEOPLE AND DOESN'T AFRAID OF ANYTHING
<Retro-AG> WOULD YOU MIND UH
<Retro-AG> CUTTING THAT OUT I GUESS
<Retro-AG> LOVE, AMERICA
<Retro-AG> NEWS REPORT AT 11: UGANDA NOW DEMOCRATIC
<Retro-AG> EVERYONE HAPPY AND ALIVE, SAYS BYSTANDER
<Retro-AG> IDI STEPPED DOWN PEACEFULLY, PROPER DEMOCRATIC GVT. INSTALLED
<Retro-AG> WHEN ASKED, SAYS "THE US SENT ME A LETTER, I REALLY FELT LIKE PROMOTING DEMOCRACY AFTER THAT"
<Retro-AG> ANOTHER VICTORY FOR MEMOS
<Nuklearni-okurka> Reaganomicon
<Nuklearni-okurka> oops
<Nuklearni-okurka> Retro-AG
<Nuklearni-okurka> could you please be more democratic
<Nuklearni-okurka> pleeeaseeee
<Retro-AG> yeah sorry i'll get on that
<Retro-AG> thanks for telling me
<Retro-AG> i had no idea
<Nuklearni-okurka> <3 - democracy
<Corporation|back> Eh, the alternative to the "memos" is far worse for me to complemante
<Nuklearni-okurka> why are you asking anyways
<Nuklearni-okurka> are you going to send memos to NK?
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<Kidiri> DDR, please be more democratic.
<Retro-AG> did you mean to say 'compliment'
<Kidiri> Less communism, please.
<Kidiri> Okay?
<Nuklearni-okurka> yes sorry Retro-AG
<Kidiri> Thanks in advance.
<Nuklearni-okurka> I should be more democratic next time
<Corporation|back> Nuklearni-okurka: Because it has been standard policy
<Corporation|back> in the US
<Corporation|back> for the US to send memos to allied dictators
<Corporation|back> asking them to reform
<Corporation|back> and I felt that was a good policy
<Retro-AG> the US does a lot to promote democracy
<Retro-AG> that's not one of the things that counts as such
<Corporation|back> oh.
<Retro-AG> what it is is an option that they know will have no effect
<Corporation|back> Oh yea, the US also funds NGOs
<Corporation|back> but I think they only spend a little bit about
<Corporation|back> it
<Retro-AG> but they are doing it to a) solidify their stance and make their position clear, and b) so that nobody can say they never tried asking nicely
<Corporation|back> Retro-AG: Doing anything more however is BAD.
<Corporation|back> The country hates you interfering in their domestic affairs
<Retro-AG> <Corporation|back> Retro-AG: Doing anything more however is BAD. <-- you're a massive fucking idiot, and I'm sorry that there's not a more polite way to say that
<ingevi> o.O
<Nuklearni-okurka> haha
<Nuklearni-okurka> that would make a good quote
<Retro-AG> there are really only a few options available for the Country B
<Retro-AG> 1. Informal, basically stating what they want Country A to start doing (ie. sending a memo i guess)
<Retro-AG> this has no effect other than to state Country B's position
<Retro-AG> it might have an effect in situations where B already has a great deal of power over A but in such cases the memo's a formality really anyhow
<Retro-AG> 2. Beneficial, supporting charities and foundations and whatnot within A to support B's will
<Retro-AG> this includes bribes as well
<Retro-AG> or deals like "you work on those reforms, we'll maybe introduce a bill that encourages trade with you
<Retro-AG> this is generally the most polite of the options that have an effect
<Retro-AG> 3. Peaceful Opposition, or stuff like trade embargos, public condemnation, efforts to reduce support or supplies
<Retro-AG> the reverse form of the beneficial deal listed above
<Retro-AG> "you start doing those reforms or we'll keep giving you shit like this about it"
<Retro-AG> 4. Militaristic Opposition
<Retro-AG> which is extreme and effectively "fuck this i'll just do it myself then"
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<Retro-AG> 1 will never work, only clarify a stance
<Retro-AG> 2 and 3 are the main options
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<Retro-AG> 4 is very extreme and will get you shit from countries C D and E
<Retro-AG> and now that i've explained a grade school level of international relations
<Retro-AG> back to work
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<Nuklearni-okurka> he just won
<Nuklearni-okurka> shit's over
<Nuklearni-okurka> let's go home