RNZ: Protester Turned Politician, a Waitangi interview with Shane Jones | Mata S02E01a

Season 2 | Episode 1A: Protester Turned Politician, a Waitangi interview with Shane Jones - Mata
From Mata with Mihingarangi Forbes
Produced for RNZ by Aotearoa Media Collective | Made with the support of NZOA & TMP.
Radio New Zealand
8:38 pm on 6 February 2024

https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/mata-with-mihingarangi-forbes/story/2018923211/season-2-episode-1a-protester-turned-politician-a-waitangi-interview-with-shane-jones-mata
https://podcast.radionz.co.nz/MATA/mata-20240206-2038-waitangi_special_interview_with_shane_jones-256.mp3

Transcript courtesy of
https://riverside.fm/transcription

:
00:05
Welcome to Mata with me, Mhihingarangi Forbes, made with the support of Te Mangai Paho and New Zealand On Air. This special episode is recorded at Waitangi and features an extended interview with a Minister of the Crown who cut his teeth here on the Treaty grounds many decades ago.

00:34
It is of course protester turned politician, New Zealand First's Shane Jones. Tēnā koe e ite, Minister. E kia tukui e te pai o Rātana, hara mai ki Waitangi. He said to that paepae at Rātana to come to Waitangi to have a kōrero. And they came, and there are hundreds they came, and they asked on the marae, where was Shane? Where was Matua Shane? Well, if I can just go back to Rātana.

01:03
I know that there are rare opportunities and the paepae is often one of those opportunities where you can be direct and put the kaupapa forward. But I did feel that it was a bit awkward at Ratana, quite apart from the identity of the speakers. So that's what I meant. No, no, this type of kōrero, don't bring it here to Ratana, which is more of a…

01:29
rangi maori e kotahitanga paonga aere ki place, come to Waitangi. So no, no, I will fulfil my characteristic rhetoric later today. But it wasn't a statement I was making to be a clown, but this has always been in my lifetime a place where the dust swirls and the cord was laid down. And a key point I wanted to make.

01:56
because there are most certainly differences of approach and differences of opinion. But I'm just nervous that they don't get catastrophised. There was certainly dust swirling at Ratana and we saw a different Shane Jones there on the pie, a little bit more pukuriri, and I think some of the name calling, Taurika Reka for one, their words, not mine. Yeah, why do you think people are?

02:25
directing those kind of slurs towards you? I have been criticised for not rising above it. And one of my whanaunga at Ratana, she said, Shane, please don't use your knowledge to deprecate us. I mean, it wasn't Māori, she said it. Kaua to mātauranga e tukuha, hei whakiti a mātau. So that's a fair criticism that someone like myself. But I...

02:55
I felt it really odd that a young Tūhoe boy should, number one, be speaking there, and number two, given the amount of mahi that over the years Winston and I have done in Tūhoe, and it's totally unheralded. So yeah, but I'm also sending a message to the younger generation coming through, these cultural Dalai Lamas who may have been through panekiretanga or something like that. When you stand and talk to me, if you're not going to deliver it, I'm going to be

03:24
with dignity and respect. Don't cry when I serve it right back to you because that was my upbringing, being put in our places sat down by the Tohungas of that time, including Pumi from Tainui, including my own uncle's Reverend Matutaira Ihaka. So it's a little bit of a message too to the young ones coming through. I mean, I'm happy that...

03:50
There's a whole generation coming to recover the paepae and Hedini Mokomid made the point that they're probably stronger in a lot of marae culture and bilingualism than my generation were. But when you sort of encounter someone like myself, you'd be on your best behaviour. Well, they're here and they've turned up in their hundreds and they're here for a wānanga of some kind. They came talking about unity and there was a call for a Māori parliament yesterday as well.

04:20
How would a Māori parliament, Te Whare Ōrunga, we've had one before, could you work with that? You know what I'm gonna say today is that there are a host of esoteric pursuits and concerns. And then there is the burden of social and economic challenges. And I live by three yearly cycles, so I know what it's like to be booted out. I'm gonna exhaust every inch of what

04:50
kaha I have to address those practical material challenges and endeavor to create advancement for our whānau in that regard. I'm not going to spend any time, I'm not going to spend any effort on advancing what I regard given the character of the challenges we face on esoteric matters of indigenous sovereignty, a new Māori religious literature.

05:18
and other such matters. If others want to, they're entitled to, but I'm not going to. Kate, that's a no to that. Let's put that aside and let's talk about more things that you have been talking about. This year the kaupapa is Toitu He Whakaputanga Toitu Te Tiriti. You won't and don't support the Act Parties Treaty Principles Bill past the first reading, and your party has its own treaty policy. It involves the Waitangi Tribunal. So talk to me about the refocusing of the scope.

05:45
Yeah, well, some of the remarks I've made about the Waitangi Tribunal probably could have been a bit more felicitous. But what we want to do is just to review after 50 years of its operation, its purpose, what worth is it creating by pursuing these large kaupapa claims? On whose behalf is it doing it? And is it time?

06:13
as we race towards 2040 to refocus and repurpose the future Waitangi Tribunal. I don't have a, I have no well conceived or well written new template for it, but I'm really keen for Tama, because it's under his jurisdiction, to find a couple of people to review it. One name has already been given to me. That's Dame.

06:42
Shan Elias, but look, those decisions will be made by the government. But anyone who thinks we're going to turn it into a tupapaku, no. But I want people to be kind of fair-minded and reasonable. Any organization that's been around for 50 years, if you start in 1975 and go back to 1925, a lot happened over those 50 years. And a lot has happened over the 50 years that will be arrived at next year. So that's why we've wanted to review it. It's not really...

07:11
an organisation like other organisations is it though, because it was set up in 1975 in response to treaty grievances and our ancestors had been writing and petitioning the government all falling on deaf ear. So I guess what do you think the original scope of the Waitangi Tribunal was and what's the issue with that today? I look at New Zealand where it is today.

07:41
multi-dimensional and I'm horrified by the prospect by 2040 there could be 7 million people living in New Zealand. So if iwi are concerned at the moment about what they sense as marginalization, how come no iwi leader is standing with me and challenging the mass immigration coming into New Zealand? Not one single iwi leader. But no, they carry on about these esoteric things to do with...

08:11
a new parliament or principles of the Treaty. And every year another 100,000 of migrants come to New Zealand. To me that's more of a threat to our coherence and to the foundation influences that have built New Zealand. Sadly, I've tried to campaign on it, but I've always found I've been a voice in the wilderness. No iwi would ever stand with me on this issue. To be fair to iwi and iwi leaders though, they have never had...

08:39
a position of any influence or power in immigration in the first place? Well, I put to you that iwi leaders and people in a position of influence there, if you want political power, take it. If you want political power, create momentum, build a kaupapa and drive it. Now no doubt that's what they believe they're doing after Tūrangawaewae, but to what end?

09:06
Come back to the Kaupapa claims because I just need to come back to this Waitangi thing. Tell me what your issue is. So you believe that there was a scope for the Waitangi Tribunal in the early days with the historic claims and all those. You have an issue with the Kaupapa claims. Tell me about that. Yeah. So the constitutional claim, if I can start there, you know as well as I do. I think Paul Reeves did some constitutional thing. Margaret Wilson did some constitutional thing. So Tipene was involved in a constitutional thing.

09:35
If you want to change the constitution of your country, I'm of the view because I'm a parliamentarian and I live or die by democratic will, you go and seek the endorsement of the country. And I just do not see the mahi that the tribunal is doing in that regard as either a priority for the whanau or indeed something that's going to be embraced at this point in time by voters. So I asked myself.

10:05
On whose behalf is the Waitangi Tribunal doing this? It's a court of inquiry. It does, it barely has powers. It's not binding. All they're able to do is to review and do that important mahi with those amazing minds and those experts that are in there. And then it's for government to do. So are you asking too much of the Waitangi Tribunal? Well, if you're going to have a constitution inquiry, it has to be on the binary, it has to be beyond the binary conception of the Crown and Māori. Now, I know I sound unpopular saying this.

10:34
But I say to a lot of the EBI leaders who perhaps want that, come and live in my world. We have a rapidly changing demography in New Zealand. And unless parliamentarians stand against that, then matters. And I do. I'd rather see our own people and our own infrastructure and our own country resilience boosted before we bring too many more people into the country. But on the question of the Waitangi Tribunal, I just fear it could be mission creep.

11:03
Because let's face it, after the historical claims and the regional inquiries, there is a question to be raised, well, what's your purpose now? And you could argue that, well, each week, each month, there's a new decision made by the Crown that is arguably at odds with Iwi conception of the Treaty. And we've got the smoking one, and we've got the real one, and Ngai Tarangi have got their claim. But, you know, I say to you, Mehi, a lot of those changes...

11:30
We went out and asked for the votes of New Zealanders for those changes. Let's come back to the Waitangi Tribunal because it's the only place in the country that Māori can actually go to challenge the government's failures. And so until, you know, some might argue until Article 2 and 3 have been achieved by the Crown, then there is a place for kaupapa claims like health. When you look at the, Tamariki Māori have the highest hospitalisation of preventable diseases. Let's use...

11:59
rheumatic fever and you and I both know that if you have rheumatic fever then you're more likely to die of heart disease when you're older. So who's going to be challenging the crown for the failure of those gaping gaps? So probably I just have a different conception.

12:19
I just cannot see how the Waitangi Tribunal, in focusing on these broad, large, rolling claims, is going to change the frontline delivery of services. And God knows they need to change. And I've ended up putting my effort and sweat and equity into politics.

12:46
into campaigning, into electoral fights to affect those changes. But I don't want anyone thinking that New Zealand First is going to eradicate the Tribunal. We don't, number one, we don't have the power to, number two, we don't have a mandate to. But we certainly are going to review it. Well, but if you're going to redefine the scope and you're going to get rid of kaupapa plans, give me the plan of closing the gap in health. Well, the only way you can close the gap in health is not through the Waitangi Tribunal.

13:15
you've got to refocus the delivery at the front end, reduce the amount of bureaucracy involved, and do, funnily enough, what David Seymour told the Iwi leaders. He had rather, and I think New Zealand First has always hankered after this, find a method of delivery that works at the front. What is it? Well, I'm a great... Because both parties are trying to redefine and rewrite principles, you don't have a method.

13:41
find a method you're talking about. What is it? Because you can't throw away something without replacing it with something that's successful. Yeah, see, I'll be really pithy and clear here. It is my view that showing the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and legislation will no longer act as a lever to change the quality and the conduct of behavior at the front. Fund more agencies, fund more entities, the Māori Women's Welfare League, Hāpū Iwi,

14:11
is making a material difference at the front. That's what I mean by material advancement. Of course I know that the Waitangi Tribunal will continue to host claims, but I've been around in this game long enough to know that the ability to convert whatever dictator they come up with into a front line response, politicians get more power, I would say more power, good or bad, over that than the Tribunal.

14:40
Is there a chance that you, who actually operates as the Crown, looking to redefine the scope of the Waitangi Tribunal, would in fact actually extend the wrongdoings of the Crown by changing something without the support of Māori? Well, I don't think a review should be catastrophised. And a review would have to involve, obviously, the main users of the Tribunal. That's the legal fraternity.

15:09
People who have had a proven track record at working there, the members of the tribunal, may even be retired judges who themselves have to cope with some of the flow on of the tribunal. Now, I think a review is like, rather than seeing it as either a negative or a step backwards, it's future-proofing an organization that was still obviously embraced.

15:39
by many Māori advocates. But we're gonna make sure that what it does is fit for purpose over the next 15 years, because I see the next 15 years as an opportunity to not only stimulate, but to boost from here on greater forward momentum about our people. At the weekend, you wrote a piece where you said that the Treaty and Te Tiriti should be read together. How do you...

16:08
understand where does he whakaputanga fit in? How do you read that? Okay so what just on the matter of the Treaty, I'm influenced by Maturata's view. It was a bilingual indivisible document so I do not buy into the dismemberment of the Treaty. I suspect that's come out of the University of Auckland.

16:29
whereas one is a particular charter and the other is irrelevant. That's just never a view that I grew up with. It's not a view that I endorse. In relation to Te Whakaputa... But just on that, you know, to be fair to those rangatira who signed Te Tiriti and not the Treaty, are you saying that they gave permission for these signatures to be transferred to another document that didn't mean the same thing?

16:59
Voluble on the Treaty have read the Kohi Maorama Treaty Conference. I have. The Kohi Maorama Treaty Conference settled once and for all, but at that time, and those rangatiras like Tamati Wakanene were still alive. And I'd encourage people that are on this new flight to dismember the Treaty to go back and read the Kohi Maorama Treaty of Waitangi Conference.

17:26
perversely enough held in Kohi Mālama, we wouldn't think so today. So that's why I'd take a different view. On the question of the Whakaputanga, well, I'm from Te O Pōori and our Tūpuna Mahia signed it. He didn't sign it at the same time as other Tūpuna, Panekāreo and others did. And I've always conceived it to be an economic trade instrument in terms of enabling Patoone and the others to engage in trade.

17:55
and prove their worth. But I don't plan to spend any time or effort trying to breathe life into Whakaputanga. This is why I'm not interested in UN Indigenous rights doctrine like Moana in them. I'm a Treaty person, and with the creation of the Treaty, there was the fusion of two traditions.

18:19
That's why I regard it as indivisible. So I may sound a little bit old fashioned these days. I don't buy into the separate UN Doctrine of Indigenous Rights. No, but you're asking the listener to consider the Treaty, Te Tiriti and the Kohimarama outcome. So it's a series of hui. I'm asking just four years earlier.

18:38
The British Crown acknowledged He Whakaputanga, so it must be part of the conversation. Yeah, no, no, it's a part while he can go back earlier. He can go back to the letter of Titore. We'll just go back to He Whakaputanga. And if you go right back to Hongi, when he came back five years after Waterloo, and they said, Hongi will make you the king. Hongi knew there's no way he could be the king. And the cup of the hand of his own people had been squashed to death.

19:03
So there's a host of events that took place, you're absolutely right. But the Treaty is the seminal event. And the Whakaputanga does feed into the Treaty, and it's got similar language because the same people translate it. Well, I don't know. The language in Whakaputanga is much stronger. And as you say, it was about trade because it was about a flag, but it was also that Māori would not let anyone else make laws in their country for their people. So obviously, you know, things changed, discussions had happened, but it's hard. It's a long bow.

19:33
to think that those rangatira who signed he whakaputanga then gave away their tenorangatiratanga just five years later. Yeah, and I understand what you're saying. But I say to you, we're in 2024, and we've got a situation, largely through our own inactivity, where we're marching from five million people to six million people to seven million people. I'm just astounded why.

19:59
either the media or much of Māori leadership thinks that the answer lies in 1835 and 1840, where every year more people are going to come to our country because it's a haven in terms of where they've come from. Perhaps they're saying the answer lies in equity and equality, so they could also make some decisions about immigration and things like that. I want to talk about your letter. You suggest that Māori need to move on and we're talking about it today from...

20:27
the victimhood mentality and to adopt the ancestors adaptability and acquisition. And I wonder, isn't that exactly what iwi trusts and runanga around the country are doing? They're adapting to government legislation, seeking to acquire wealth. Some of them are very wealthy and to be in a better financial position. So who are the victims you're talking about? When I use that word, I've had a guts full of the concept of decolonisation. I've had a guts full.

20:55
of blaming the colonial burden of what I see in Kaitāia, Kaikohe and various other parts every day. Now you have to be careful that you don't victim shame, but for me rangatiratanga, for me mana motuhake, or even our own language, I'm about identifying what are the day-to-day challenges.

21:21
and this notion that somehow we can continually rely on the past as an excuse for our current situation or the future. I'm just never ever going to agree with that. Would you have called yourself a victim when you were part of the kawariki back in the 80s? No, no, the kawariki in 1984, I'll tell you a story about that, kawariki in 1980, no we went down to the Tūrangawaewae Hui called by the Ecumenical Council of Churches, Rob Cooper and Manuka Henare.

21:50
I'm not entirely sure what their role was. And then we headed back home. And our focus on the kauriki was rights. In fact, I've still got the pamphlet. It was rights for language, fishing rights, land rights. Oh, I think we've done a tremendous job in recovering rights. The issue that we haven't advanced is material advancement. And you could say that the rights have only benefited a narrow fraction, and that's a valid criticism.

22:19
about some runanga, but I think that's a bit petty. The fact of the matter is a lot of the rights that have been restored, and I mean, I find it very satisfactory. They're not big enough, they're not extensive enough to deal with a multi-generational hardship, but we should celebrate what the hell we have achieved in that sort of 30 year period. How does your coalition think that Ngā Puhi should be settled? Do you think it should be a one?

22:48
commercial entity or would you listen to the people? Cause 72% of them voted for a six-tai whenua regional settlement. What are your thoughts? I don't know if there's a lot of energy in our government to expend on the Ngāpuhi settlement, if the Haukainga aren't organized. My personal view all along, which I've never hidden, is that Ngāpuhi needs a big tent approach.

23:17
And maybe a model is Ngāti Whātua where they have an overarching runanga, and elements of Ngāti Whātua have their own assets. But my preference, because Ngāpuhi— Ngāpuhi is like a microcosm of the Māori people. So many people say they're Ngāpuhi, just as so many people say they're Māori. And the balance is to get a central, powerful resource and also give due recognition to the elements that make up Ngāpuhi.

23:43
Lots of people may say they're from Ngāpuhi, but the hapū of Ngāpuhi are alive. When you're here at Waitangi, you can feel the life and the energy and the reo and the tikanga and the kawa. I mean, they argue about it on the marae, whose kawa is gonna stand here. So, I mean, compared to other parts of the country, this is a very Māori place to be. It always has been. And I feel like, you know, when you talk from the Crown, as a Crown agent, really, as an MP,

24:11
about how Ngāpuhi is not organised enough, it's kind of unfair when you consider the resources the Crown has had for the last 184 years and the position of Māori. You know Ngāpuhi, they signed the Treaty for a brief period of time the capital was here. Once that capital left Waitemata and it left after Reweti, Abihaitukawa's nephew, if I'm not mistaken, came and petitioned the Crown to go to Waitemata. They wanted the Crown there.

24:40
as a buffer between Waikato and Ngapuhi, and they had every reason to want the Crown to go there. So there has been a long period of neglect and marginalisation in the North, which from time to time I've done something about as a politician, but those good deeds do not go unpunished. But the reality is that in a part of New Zealand like Northland, unless there is a

25:09
very hard to change the lives of people. Maori indigenous? Pardon? Maori indigenous? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're Tangata Whenua. We trace our whakapapa. Julian asked me this question. Shane, your rangatira Winston said that we're not indigenous to New Zealand. And I said, Julian, you've spent a whole part of your career proving that we came from Hawaiki with all the kōrero of Ngātoki Matawārua, Mātātua.

25:39
I said, when we go to Marquesas or Aretonga, the language in Manahiki is not the same, but it's remarkably similar. I said, that's all Winston was saying. We're part of the big Pacific community. Was Winston wrong? The leaders never wrong. Under no circumstances was they wrong. Can you see that kind of kōrero though, how infuriating that must be for tangata whenua who are barely holding on to their motuhaki here in Aotearoa?

26:08
I would say to our people,

26:12
This is electoral politics. You may hear from me, David Seymour, but the god of wind blows our words away. We're politicians, and in the heat of debate, rhetoric is deployed, whether it's left or right of politics. And we shouldn't actually cling and use those words as a justification for remaining angry.

26:36
Are you saying that we shouldn't believe anything you say? Is that what you're saying? When you're in an election, you are fighting for every iota of attention. And for example, I said that you could kill every cow tomorrow and you wouldn't change the climate. Obviously, that's hyperbole. Of course, we need to be very mindful of the climate. And you know, we deploy rhetoric.

27:03
I'd argue that some of the best people are deploying hyperbole and rhetoric are our Māori orators themselves. So you've got to conceive like my nephew Peeni talking about, I'll let my figurative gun do the talking. So just say to our own people, you know, toughen up. That's the nature of politics, rhetoric. Tēnā koe. Kaate, kua kehi te kaupapa mo tēnei wā.

27:33
Kia Irirangi te Motu, me te Mangaipaho. We'll be back with more mata in March. Meanwhile, you can check out our interview with ACT Leader David Seymour, recorded here at Waitangi. Nohoromai.