[redacted]

[30-Mar-20 08:43 PM] brewfasa#4532
pony isn’t auto broken without trap

[30-Mar-20 08:44 PM] brewfasa#4532
I just feel like that’s a lazy af excuse

[30-Mar-20 08:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
its definitely pretty powerful

[30-Mar-20 08:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
pony in sun basically has no good answers without dig

[30-Mar-20 08:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
morning sun/flare blitz/high horsepower/wow pony is pretty hard to deal with too

[redacted]

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] levi#6206
Want to vote on rufflet next week?

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think we should wait more

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] Ninja#8225
suspect rufflet

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] hongli#4483
vote on rufflet as in

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] hongli#4483
vote for suspect?

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] BurntZebra#8147
unless we want to keep the lcpl meta the same

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the entire time

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s def better to suspect ruff

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] levi#6206
And if it comes down to a suspect I think I’m coming around to dokas suggestion that we just let it carry through week one of lcpl

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] brewfasa#4532
I was being facetious

[30-Mar-20 08:46 PM] levi#6206
I’d rather the following weeks of lcpl to be rufflet-free

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] levi#6206
Yea, if it’s less than 80% then it’s a suspect

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] BurntZebra#8147
do you think we will see more rufflet usage in SM

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
for sure

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] hongli#4483
rufflets have to be scarf though

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] hongli#4483
in sm

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s how that shit goes

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i feel like the way people are using rufflet in SS, it could definitely be used the same way in SM

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] Serene Grace#5243
The memers in the drifloon suspect ruined it for everyone

[30-Mar-20 08:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
the speed tiers tho

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
Fuck with it dokas right

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well webs+rufflet is like the most popular combo

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] hongli#4483
ya but

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] hongli#4483
gastly

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
gastly isnt that common

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
gastly also isnt switching in

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] hongli#4483
isnt gastly

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] hongli#4483
a top tier mon

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
in sm?

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and gastly doesnt ohko

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean like its used with abra

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
gas is v common

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
exclusively

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
nah that’s not true

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well yeah but id say like 85% of its usage

[30-Mar-20 08:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
is with abra

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
gastly is super good in theory

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
on its own

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s good in practice

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but in practice, it usually falls short

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
as well

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
false

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
I

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
K

[30-Mar-20 08:49 PM] Serene Grace#5243
Sup @Luthier nice lcpl sign up post I believe that you have limited availability and are not trying to tank your value

[redacted]

[30-Mar-20 08:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
little known fact

[30-Mar-20 08:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
studying for mcat is more than a 40 hour/week job+full time school

[redacted]

[30-Mar-20 08:50 PM] Pablo#5523
i have limited availability i play pokemon all day no time for lcpl

[redacted]

[30-Mar-20 08:59 PM] brewfasa#4532
anyways I’m down for as soon as we announce cutie ban, ruff suspect

[30-Mar-20 09:00 PM] brewfasa#4532
we can get this done as soon as lcpl hits

[30-Mar-20 11:27 PM] jake#8907
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cutiefly-has-been-quickbanned-from-ss-lc.3661908/

{Embed}
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cutiefly-has-been-quickbanned-from-ss-lc.3661908/
Announcement - Cutiefly has been quickbanned from SS LC.
Cutiefly has been quickbanned from SS LC.

This is an unprecedented situation because of the timing of the quickban. Quickbans normally take place immediately following major metagame changes, such as the release of Pokemon Home. Cutiefly has been available to use throughout t...
https://www.smogon.com/forums/media/twitter.png

[30-Mar-20 11:32 PM] jake#8907
ruff will go up tomorrow i think

[30-Mar-20 11:34 PM] jake#8907
@brewfasa @levi @BurntZebra @Pablo @Kingler @LilyAC @Luthier @Ninja @Shrug @starmaster please pm me your paragraphs asap

[30-Mar-20 11:34 PM] jake#8907
preferably within 24 hours

[redacted]

[01-Apr-20 12:00 AM] jake#8907
any objections to ruff deadline being the same as vulpix

[01-Apr-20 12:00 AM] jake#8907
seemed to work out ok last time

[01-Apr-20 12:01 AM] jake#8907
(this would end april 10th if it were to match up exactly same dates)

[01-Apr-20 12:01 AM] jake#8907
or is the inclusion of two weekends preferable

[01-Apr-20 12:01 AM] jake#8907
i don't really have strong feelings either way

[01-Apr-20 12:02 AM] Serene Grace#5243
we could extend it to the 12th, that still gets it before week 1 of lcpl

[01-Apr-20 12:02 AM] Ninja#8225
well

[01-Apr-20 12:02 AM] Ninja#8225
people might not vote

[01-Apr-20 12:02 AM] Ninja#8225
in time

[01-Apr-20 12:02 AM] jake#8907
(it would need to be voted on before week 1 if that's the case)

[01-Apr-20 12:02 AM] jake#8907
yea

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] jake#8907
i think making sure people have enough time to vote > lcpl week 1

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] jake#8907
though both are important

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] jake#8907
i think ten days was pretty fair overall last time but

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] Serene Grace#5243
two weekends isnt a big deal because of corona

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] jake#8907
i don't know everyone's thoughts

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] jake#8907
yeah

[01-Apr-20 12:03 AM] Serene Grace#5243
I would end it on the 10th

[01-Apr-20 12:07 AM] hongli#4483
when would ruff suspect be going up

[01-Apr-20 12:07 AM] hongli#4483
in this scenario

[01-Apr-20 12:07 AM] jake#8907
now

[01-Apr-20 12:07 AM] hongli#4483
uh

[01-Apr-20 12:08 AM] levi#6206
Ok let’s do it

[01-Apr-20 12:08 AM] hongli#4483
what happened to

[01-Apr-20 12:08 AM] hongli#4483
wanting to see how the meta settles after qt ban

[01-Apr-20 12:09 AM] jake#8907
i was under the impression we were moving immediately into ruff suspect?

[01-Apr-20 12:10 AM] jake#8907
but if that's not the case then i'm ok talking about it

[01-Apr-20 12:11 AM] hongli#4483
i'm of the opinion that rufflet will most likely still be broken even without webs

[01-Apr-20 12:12 AM] hongli#4483
but like webs were such an integral part of rufflet being so unmanageable that i think it's jumping the gun a bit

[01-Apr-20 12:12 AM] hongli#4483
to move immediately to a suspect after the qt ban

[01-Apr-20 12:13 AM] hongli#4483
there's a ton of opportunity cost to running band ruff now, and things can more easily revenge sub/bu+2 atks ruff since a bunch of things can actually have the opportunity to outspeed it now

[01-Apr-20 12:19 AM] jake#8907
when would you feel it is appropriate to move into a suspect following the cutie ban (or do you think there is potential to not suspect it at all)

[01-Apr-20 12:19 AM] jake#8907
i know where i personally stand on it but jc

[01-Apr-20 12:20 AM] Serene Grace#5243
The supect is the waiting to see the meta

[01-Apr-20 12:20 AM] Serene Grace#5243
we see the new meta in the suspect and we vote based on that

[01-Apr-20 12:34 AM] hongli#4483
even if you use the suspect as a testing period for the meta

[01-Apr-20 12:34 AM] hongli#4483
perhaps there were innovations being suppressed by cutie's dominance

[01-Apr-20 12:34 AM] hongli#4483
that would help keep rufflet in line

[01-Apr-20 12:34 AM] hongli#4483
stuff that may take a while to come out and see usage

[01-Apr-20 12:35 AM] hongli#4483
i think waiting at least a week

[01-Apr-20 12:35 AM] hongli#4483
would be ideal

[01-Apr-20 12:39 AM] jake#8907
@Council thoughts when u have the chance

[01-Apr-20 01:10 AM] BurntZebra#8147
ideally i think we would wait to do anything with rufflet

[01-Apr-20 01:10 AM] BurntZebra#8147
but if we really want to get everything done before lcpl

[01-Apr-20 01:13 AM] Kingler#6931
use lcpl as testing grounds imo

[01-Apr-20 01:13 AM] Kingler#6931
week 3/4

[01-Apr-20 01:13 AM] Kingler#6931
i don't think a possibly contentious test should be done quickly

[01-Apr-20 01:13 AM] BurntZebra#8147
yeah personally im fine with the meta changing during lcpl

[redacted]

[01-Apr-20 01:23 AM] levi#6206
i think rushing to the ruff suspect would be bad but changing the meta half way through lcpl would be even worse

[01-Apr-20 01:25 AM] levi#6206
i'd much rather just have the first week of lcpl building down the drain instead of 3-4 bc theres always room to revisit a bad ruff suspect, but it'd be much harder to come back from a demotivated lcpl imo

[01-Apr-20 01:26 AM] levi#6206
even if revisiting isnt ideal compared to just getting the suspect right the first time for a few reasons

[redacted]

[01-Apr-20 01:32 AM] levi#6206
if we had to choose between a suspect half way through lcpl and delaying the ruff suspect entirely i would choose the second option, barring rufflet becoming so overbearing that it becomes a major demotivating factor on its own though i dont think any one mon can do that

[01-Apr-20 01:34 AM] levi#6206
having to suddenly shift through a meta during spl was bearable but this would be much worse bc there would be an actual suspect going on to divert attention in a v major way, + that some teams will have dedicated builders and the load on them is going to be much greater than on a single spl player building for themselves

[01-Apr-20 01:34 AM] levi#6206
that being said im like 90% confident that starting a ruff suspect within the next day or two would be the more popular move for the avg lcer than waiting out the ruff suspect through lcpl so that's still my first choice

[01-Apr-20 08:21 AM] starmaster#8286
Definitely think a test now is a bad idea

[01-Apr-20 08:21 AM] starmaster#8286
we just banned the most important mon in the tier

[01-Apr-20 08:22 AM] starmaster#8286
I think we for sure need to wait before we do anything

[01-Apr-20 08:50 AM] brewfasa#4532
agreed

[01-Apr-20 08:50 AM] brewfasa#4532
don’t think it’s responsible to rush into it

[01-Apr-20 08:51 AM] brewfasa#4532
esp when the set I keep seeing cited is cb

[01-Apr-20 09:58 AM] LilyAC#7887
agree

[01-Apr-20 10:04 AM] levi#6206
I think that lcpl should be the most important factor given its presence and making sure it’s smoothly run is much more important to the lc community than a pretty minor/forgettable stretching of tiering scheduling

[01-Apr-20 10:05 AM] Shrug#7659
i think i explained in my post why it should go now

[01-Apr-20 10:05 AM] Shrug#7659
it is going to define lcpl i think

[01-Apr-20 10:05 AM] levi#6206
On those grounds suspecting rufflet now and only losing a week seems better to me than suspecting it after the tour, bc suspecting it after the tour would probably reduce motivation for building slightly for all of the later weeks

[01-Apr-20 10:06 AM] Ninja#8225
i think it should be now too, cutiefly almost certainly didn’t need to be as rushed if we were just going to wait

[01-Apr-20 10:06 AM] levi#6206
Suspecting it half way through the tour would kill lcpl and is comfortably the worst option

[01-Apr-20 10:07 AM] LilyAC#7887
kill lcpl is some extreme exaggeration

[01-Apr-20 10:08 AM] levi#6206
Ok slightly kill

[01-Apr-20 10:08 AM] LilyAC#7887
our tiers banlist is more important than lcpl

[01-Apr-20 10:08 AM] BurntZebra#8147
not being able to reuse teams the entirety of lcpl, how will we survive

[01-Apr-20 10:09 AM] Coconut#8762
having a tier that's good is more important than LCPL

[01-Apr-20 10:09 AM] Coconut#8762
but these things are not mutually exclusive

[01-Apr-20 10:09 AM] levi#6206
I don’t think suspecting ruff rn is damaging enough to the tier for those to be equivalent

[01-Apr-20 10:09 AM] levi#6206
To the tier or even to tiering policy

[01-Apr-20 10:09 AM] Coconut#8762
other tiers go through meta shifts during their PLs

[01-Apr-20 10:10 AM] Coconut#8762
and it doesn't kill the tour

[01-Apr-20 10:10 AM] levi#6206
Yea and it’s not just a meta shift

[01-Apr-20 10:10 AM] levi#6206
It’s a meta shift that carries a suspect

[01-Apr-20 10:10 AM] Coconut#8762
if anything, it hurts teams that can't adapt to new meta trends

[01-Apr-20 10:10 AM] Coconut#8762
and benefits teams who are active and interested in the meta

[01-Apr-20 10:10 AM] levi#6206
It literally hurts teams that have more players who want to get reqs, that’s really bad

[01-Apr-20 10:11 AM] Coconut#8762
Does it?

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Coconut#8762
Yes these teams have more people who are publicly playing for reqs

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
coronapl is on rn we get at least 4 rounds

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Coconut#8762
but these same people will be motivated to build teams

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
to check out how it goes

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Coconut#8762
we're not banning rufflet for coronapl

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
thats 12 tour games

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Coconut#8762
absolutely not

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
of no cutie w rufflet

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
no im saying

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] levi#6206
They can’t use those built teams for at least a couple weeks of lcpl

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
its 12 tour games

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Coconut#8762
I can't justify that

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] levi#6206
If they use them for reqs

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Ninja#8225
to see how rufflet fairs in a cutie-free meta

[01-Apr-20 10:12 AM] Coconut#8762
as a baseline

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Ninja#8225
fares

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Coconut#8762
if 2 teams don't bring rufflet

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Coconut#8762
for each week

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Coconut#8762
the sample size isn't usable

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Coconut#8762
or it could potentially trend in favor of rufflet not being banworthy

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] levi#6206
But the main thing is that you can’t play 40 games on the ladder with only teams that you don’t plan to save for later wks and come out still completely enthusiastic

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Coconut#8762
take your pick

[01-Apr-20 10:13 AM] Ninja#8225
well if the usage dies off mayb thats evidence too

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Ninja#8225
what the 2nd is fine

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Ninja#8225
thats why we would vote

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Ninja#8225
on the suspect

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Coconut#8762
It's hard to justify which it is

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Ninja#8225
it doesnt matter what happens in the games just that they exist

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Ninja#8225
why would the 2nd be a bad thing

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Coconut#8762
the second one would be fine

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Coconut#8762
but we don't know if it's the second one

[01-Apr-20 10:14 AM] Coconut#8762
or if metariolu doesn't want to use rufflet bc it misses

[01-Apr-20 10:16 AM] Coconut#8762
and levi I agree laddering is a grind

[01-Apr-20 10:16 AM] Coconut#8762
and it potentially kills a team that you could have used for future rounds

[01-Apr-20 10:16 AM] Coconut#8762
and that sucks

[01-Apr-20 10:17 AM] Coconut#8762
but I think a brand new meta could potentially provoke a positive as well as a negative.

[01-Apr-20 10:17 AM] Coconut#8762
in that people will become more interested in building in the new meta and trying to find the new meta trend

[01-Apr-20 10:17 AM] Coconut#8762
which could potentially result in some very creative teambuilding

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] Coconut#8762
not only that, every team could potentially be on the same backfoot

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] Coconut#8762
is that something that we can avoid? is the drawback too severe for the cost?

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] Ninja#8225
didnt that happen in ekans it wasnt great

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] Ninja#8225
ig it could be better now

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] levi#6206
A brand new metagame is fine provided it’s recognizable

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] Coconut#8762
ekans was a unique scenario

[01-Apr-20 10:18 AM] Coconut#8762
and generally I think from a policy perspective, that ekans was good

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] Coconut#8762
because it developed the metagame quickly

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] levi#6206
A two week suspect test that’s both immediately a diversion of attention and also heavily draining, on top of the issues w a new meta part way through a tour, rlly isn’t

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] Coconut#8762
well what about a little bit of overlap then

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] levi#6206
A new metagame is also better near the start of the tour than half way through

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] Ninja#8225
i think in the like

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] Ninja#8225
weeks leading up

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] Ninja#8225
ppl will reuse heavily

[01-Apr-20 10:19 AM] Ninja#8225
bc its like

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] levi#6206
Bc it lends more importance to building well from the start

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Ninja#8225
oh its getting banned soon i cbf building new good teams

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Coconut#8762
If we started this suspect tomorrow

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] levi#6206
We would only have one week of ruff meta (provided it gets banned)

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Coconut#8762
week 1 could potentially have rufflet still

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] levi#6206
That’s better than cutting the tour in half

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Coconut#8762
if we get a situation akin to floon

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Ninja#8225
it might not get banned

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Ninja#8225
but thats fine too

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] levi#6206
And if it doesn’t get banned

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] Coconut#8762
where the votes take forever

[01-Apr-20 10:20 AM] levi#6206
Then there wasn’t an issue at all

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
the voting deadline should just be

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
24 hours

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Coconut#8762
really can't justify that

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
like realistically people know in advance they need to vote and when the suspect deadline is

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
everyone is online once a day at least

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
except maybe heysup

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Coconut#8762
not everybody

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
but hes playing corona pl everyday now

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
like >90% of ppl on smogon are

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] levi#6206
He’s online every day too

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
active players

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Ninja#8225
yea just last suspect he went 3 days without logging in

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Coconut#8762
for policy reasons related to things like TC

[01-Apr-20 10:21 AM] Coconut#8762
we can't do that

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Ninja#8225
people know in advance when the deadline is anyway

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] levi#6206
If there’s a hard deadline that’s made clear well in advance

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] levi#6206
Then they should make it

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Ninja#8225
wht about u can still vote afterwards for TC but the result is called after 24 hours

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Coconut#8762
gonna look really stupid if this is a close vote

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] levi#6206
Just give it a wknd or sth

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Coconut#8762
if it's a weekend

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Ninja#8225
2 days is fine maybe

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Ninja#8225
the last one was stupidly long from memory

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Coconut#8762
2/3 days is fine

[01-Apr-20 10:22 AM] Coconut#8762
but

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Ninja#8225
2 days during the week is fine too

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] levi#6206
If they can’t make it over an entire wknd then it’s already an issue

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Ninja#8225
ppl can spend 10 seconds making a post

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Ninja#8225
that they spent hours qualifying for

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Coconut#8762
I'm really reluctant to say voting lasts a day

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Coconut#8762
actually

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Ninja#8225
the drifloon one lasted over 72 hours

[01-Apr-20 10:23 AM] Coconut#8762
can we justify that rufflet is our April Fools Day Joke

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] Coconut#8762
this could potentially be really fucking good

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] Coconut#8762
I know this is like a serious bsns discussion but like

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] levi#6206
I think it’s banworthy for real...

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] Coconut#8762
this could be really funny

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] Ninja#8225
what like suspect nd then backflip if its received poorly

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] Ninja#8225
and say it was a prnak

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] Ninja#8225
prank

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] levi#6206
And if it’s well received we push it through

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] levi#6206
Oml

[01-Apr-20 10:24 AM] levi#6206
This plan has no weaknesses

[01-Apr-20 10:25 AM] levi#6206
Let’s do it

[01-Apr-20 10:25 AM] levi#6206
@Council

[01-Apr-20 10:27 AM] LilyAC#7887
everyone will think its a prank and not get reqs

[01-Apr-20 10:27 AM] Ninja#8225
well not if several council people get it first

[01-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Ninja#8225
last time on the regen one only levi did it

[01-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Ninja#8225
and ig there was no new ladder then when at the time it was a thing

[01-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Ninja#8225
the lc 2018 afd prank ahead of its time in suspect laddering

[01-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Luthier#1578
this is horrible idea

[01-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Luthier#1578
i am very against this

[01-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Luthier#1578
problem will arise when we joke about a topic that we should be serious about

[01-Apr-20 10:29 AM] Luthier#1578
leading to some people being less serious when we have to be

[01-Apr-20 10:29 AM] Luthier#1578
if we want to make an april fools joke do somethign else

[01-Apr-20 10:29 AM] Luthier#1578
like idfk ferro or some shit

[01-Apr-20 10:32 AM] levi#6206
I can’t believe the plan had weaknesses

[redacted]

[01-Apr-20 10:43 AM] jake#8907
i am not going to do anything related to rufflet for afd

[01-Apr-20 02:00 PM] Luthier#1578
Ty @jake ily

[01-Apr-20 02:50 PM] hongli#4483
lcpl starts like

[01-Apr-20 02:51 PM] hongli#4483
on the 13th right

[01-Apr-20 02:51 PM] hongli#4483
well draft is 10th but

[01-Apr-20 02:51 PM] hongli#4483
week 1 starts then

[01-Apr-20 02:52 PM] Coconut#8762
Draft is the 11th

[01-Apr-20 02:52 PM] hongli#4483
ah

[01-Apr-20 02:53 PM] hongli#4483
realistically speaking i still don't see a huge difference in having two/three weeks of rufflet for lcpl over just one

[01-Apr-20 02:53 PM] hongli#4483
that still gives an ample amount of time for us to see potential changes within the meta without "wasting" too many weeks

[01-Apr-20 02:54 PM] hongli#4483
even though i don't see it necessarily as wasting like levi/others do

[01-Apr-20 02:54 PM] hongli#4483
it's not like you can just get away w not building and just reusing anyways

[01-Apr-20 02:54 PM] hongli#4483
since qt being gone changes the tier a lot

[01-Apr-20 02:56 PM] hongli#4483
and it's really not that big of an effort

[01-Apr-20 02:56 PM] hongli#4483
to build one more team

[01-Apr-20 02:56 PM] hongli#4483
to use for ladder

[01-Apr-20 02:56 PM] jake#8907
i am ok with waiting but i don't wamt to hold off terribly long

[01-Apr-20 02:57 PM] jake#8907
esp since it's part of the justification for the cutie qb

[01-Apr-20 02:57 PM] jake#8907
want*

[01-Apr-20 02:59 PM] LilyAC#7887
+Heysup: are u guys telling me that the cutiefly ban
+Heysup: is not april fools
+Heysup: ???

[01-Apr-20 02:59 PM] Coconut#8762
told you guys!!!!!!

[01-Apr-20 03:01 PM] brewfasa#4532
lol

[01-Apr-20 04:20 PM] levi#6206
Having the suspect end two weeks into the tour would mean that the entire suspect is running alongside lcpl

[01-Apr-20 04:22 PM] Coconut#8762
so assuming rufflet got banned it'd be gone by week 3 then

[01-Apr-20 04:23 PM] levi#6206
Running the suspect alongside lcpl and diverting what the playerbase is focusing on goes both ways fwiw, it also means that some active players might not care to do the suspect bc they’d rather focus on lcpl

[01-Apr-20 04:23 PM] levi#6206
I just don’t think that would even be a concern compared to the much worse drawback of people not being able to focus their attention on lcpl

[01-Apr-20 04:23 PM] hongli#4483
couldn't you also say

[01-Apr-20 04:23 PM] hongli#4483
that people in LCPL would be more motivated to do the suspect

[01-Apr-20 04:23 PM] hongli#4483
on the grounds that it could affect their building

[01-Apr-20 04:23 PM] levi#6206
I don’t think that’s how it’d work out

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] hongli#4483
and if they think they'd do better in a rufflet-less or having-rufflet meta

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i feel like ladder teams are different from lcpl teams

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] levi#6206
For most of the playerbase

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] hongli#4483
then they'd get reqs and vote accordingly

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
whenever i tried running lcpl/snake/spl teams etc on ladder

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the matchup win % was just not good enough

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
+playing fast matches on ladder is optimal for reqs

[01-Apr-20 04:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
not really necessary for lcpl

[01-Apr-20 04:27 PM] levi#6206
Building is part of it but it’s not the only issue

[01-Apr-20 04:27 PM] levi#6206
It’s also that you’re making players grind out 40 extra games that have no immediate benefit to their prep

[01-Apr-20 04:28 PM] hongli#4483
i highkey

[01-Apr-20 04:28 PM] hongli#4483
disagree w that sentiment

[01-Apr-20 04:28 PM] hongli#4483
doing ladder would be very good prep

[01-Apr-20 04:28 PM] hongli#4483
for a lot of ppl that only come in for lcpl/have been away

[01-Apr-20 04:28 PM] hongli#4483
since it would familiarize them w the meta more

[01-Apr-20 04:28 PM] Coconut#8762
that's not a large populous

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] Coconut#8762
but I do think that people that don't play LC at all

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] levi#6206
On a meta that’s potentially about to disappear?

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] Coconut#8762
would be more likely to hop on the ladder

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] Coconut#8762
we're not gonna disappear LOL

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] hongli#4483
rufflet being gone

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] levi#6206
No

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] Coconut#8762
the meta doesn't drastically warp

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] hongli#4483
wouldn't be a high impact ban

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] levi#6206
That’s not what I meant

[01-Apr-20 04:29 PM] Coconut#8762
with the removal of rufflet

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] levi#6206
It really isn’t a high impact ban yea which is why getting it out of the way

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] levi#6206
Right now

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] Coconut#8762
cutiefly was undoubtedly a higher impact ban than rufflet would be

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] levi#6206
When it’s unpopular

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] levi#6206
Is so low impact

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] Coconut#8762
which is why we're reluctant to rush into this suspect

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] hongli#4483
if it's low impact

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] hongli#4483
shouldn't that be more reason not to rush it

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] hongli#4483
since prep won't be as invalidated

[01-Apr-20 04:30 PM] hongli#4483
if it were say qt we were suspecting in the middle of lcpl

[01-Apr-20 04:31 PM] levi#6206
It’s low impact but highly unpopular for the same reasons why suspecting it now should be acceptable policy wise

[01-Apr-20 04:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
people are still going to run onix a decent amount

[01-Apr-20 04:31 PM] levi#6206
The only thing that gets affected by our most recent meta change is the viability of one set, but a dip in viability doesn’t change that every reason we had to originally see it as suspect worthy still exists fully

[01-Apr-20 04:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
even w/o rufflet

[01-Apr-20 04:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
nothing else remotely handles rufflet

[01-Apr-20 04:32 PM] levi#6206
Including its reliance on luck

[01-Apr-20 04:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so its not like rufflet has really warped the meta around itself

[01-Apr-20 04:32 PM] levi#6206
Viability of a couple sets actually but yea

[01-Apr-20 04:32 PM] hongli#4483
yes but if there's no immediate urgency to suspect since it wouldn't completely invalidate prep and ladder could actually help prep some players

[01-Apr-20 04:33 PM] hongli#4483
then why break protocol and rush a suspect for it

[01-Apr-20 04:33 PM] Coconut#8762
I think having the suspect going to week 1

[01-Apr-20 04:33 PM] Coconut#8762
is fine

[01-Apr-20 04:33 PM] Coconut#8762
anymore than 2 weeks is a burden

[01-Apr-20 04:33 PM] levi#6206
I’m reading rufflet as a matter of uncompetitiveness right now

[01-Apr-20 04:34 PM] levi#6206
Bc there’s hardly any protocol being broken to begin with

[01-Apr-20 04:36 PM] levi#6206
Like we give time to see how a mon is going to adapt, but a) rufflets uncompetitiveness is completely independent of its viability unless we expect cutie being banned to render rufflet unviable, b) even if we’re arguing for its brokenness it’s still a mon we’ve had to become intimately familiar with and half its sets never abused webs to begin w while the other half appreciated but didn’t necessarily require it

[01-Apr-20 04:37 PM] levi#6206
Giving time for the meta to settle is like the easiest part of protocol to justify skipping over

[01-Apr-20 04:38 PM] levi#6206
And lcpl of all things is probably the single best reason you could possibly find to justify it

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
first off, why are u so focused on the uncompetitive buzzword, like this is some wingull scald situation again

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
and second I don’t rly agree with most of what u just said lmao

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
how is seeing how a metagame is

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
the least important protocol

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] levi#6206
Wingull got banned tho

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
it should be the most important

[01-Apr-20 04:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
yes what’s ur point

[01-Apr-20 04:42 PM] brewfasa#4532
this isn’t wingull

[01-Apr-20 04:42 PM] levi#6206
Well u just compared it to wingull

[01-Apr-20 04:42 PM] levi#6206
But ya

[01-Apr-20 04:42 PM] brewfasa#4532
I’m asking you

[01-Apr-20 04:42 PM] brewfasa#4532
why ur using the uncompetitive buzzword so much

[01-Apr-20 04:42 PM] brewfasa#4532
like this is a wingull situation

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] brewfasa#4532
Where ur hoping for burns

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] levi#6206
Bc rufflets primary counterplay isn’t in the builder, it’s in game

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] brewfasa#4532
lmao

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] levi#6206
It’s uncounterable

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] brewfasa#4532
then it’s broken

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] levi#6206
And it has one hard check

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s too powerful

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] levi#6206
No bc it only wins half the time

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] levi#6206
Bc it misses

[01-Apr-20 04:43 PM] brewfasa#4532
ah there it is

[01-Apr-20 04:44 PM] levi#6206
You can’t build against it tho

[01-Apr-20 04:44 PM] brewfasa#4532
don’t try and lump this uncompetitive argument with how it has no relation with viability

[01-Apr-20 04:45 PM] brewfasa#4532
ur stretching this

[01-Apr-20 04:45 PM] brewfasa#4532
just coz it can miss

[01-Apr-20 04:45 PM] brewfasa#4532
doesn’t make it some uncompetitive bs, it’s just broken thru sheer power

[01-Apr-20 04:46 PM] levi#6206
Well I do think it’s uncompetitive bc its power is unreliable in a manner that neither player has real control over

[01-Apr-20 04:46 PM] brewfasa#4532
how does this make it uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:47 PM] levi#6206
And if I’m approaching this from an uncompetitiveness aspect then waiting for a meta change obv doesn’t matter at all

[01-Apr-20 04:47 PM] levi#6206
It matters more if the argument is that ruff is outright broken though

[01-Apr-20 04:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
you shouldn’t be approaching it like that lol

[01-Apr-20 04:47 PM] brewfasa#4532
this isn’t moody, it’s not banking on 30% scald

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s like shrug said in his post, ur banking on that move hitting

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
and when it doesn’t sure it costs some games

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] levi#6206
Yea

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
but it’s just the opportunity cost of using such a powerful threat

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] levi#6206
That’s purely luck based

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] levi#6206
I think that’s uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
.....

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't think a miss from rufflet

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
So let’s ban all 80% moves

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] hongli#4483
is stone edge uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] Coconut#8762
autolosses some games

[01-Apr-20 04:48 PM] brewfasa#4532
wtf are y even talking about

[01-Apr-20 04:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
ur trying to stage an argument u have no basis on

[01-Apr-20 04:49 PM] Coconut#8762
yk focus blast is unviable

[01-Apr-20 04:49 PM] Coconut#8762
because it misses 70% of the time

[01-Apr-20 04:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
by moving the discussion from ruff being “broken” to uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:49 PM] brewfasa#4532
using Levi dictionary again

[01-Apr-20 04:51 PM] levi#6206
Is this serious

[01-Apr-20 04:51 PM] levi#6206
How many focus blast and stone edge users can guarantee a ko the vast majority of the time they miss an attack

[01-Apr-20 04:51 PM] levi#6206
How many focus blast and stone edge users are literally uncounterable

[01-Apr-20 04:51 PM] Shrug#7659
in my post i think it said it was a combination of the power and the luck element

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] levi#6206
You’re comparing ruff to mons that are probably literally half as strong on average now

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s very serious

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] Shrug#7659
as in the power makes the fortune more prominent

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] brewfasa#4532
luck has nothing to do with this lol

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] hongli#4483
isnt that an issue of

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] hongli#4483
rufflet just being too strong then

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] brewfasa#4532
if this mon doesn’t have doubters

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] brewfasa#4532
counters

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] brewfasa#4532
It’s broken

[01-Apr-20 04:52 PM] Coconut#8762
not an issue of uncompetitiveness

[01-Apr-20 04:53 PM] brewfasa#4532
again ur playing like it’s hitting

[01-Apr-20 04:53 PM] brewfasa#4532
and if it misses cool beans

[01-Apr-20 04:53 PM] brewfasa#4532
just opportunity cost

[01-Apr-20 04:53 PM] Coconut#8762
picture it like it's own flying move if that helps

[01-Apr-20 04:53 PM] levi#6206
It’s uncounterable and unbeatable in the builder but doesn’t actually win more than 50% of the time in game

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] levi#6206
Its counterplay is dodging

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] Coconut#8762
with 80% accuracy

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] levi#6206
This makes it uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] brewfasa#4532
so are u trying to argue against it

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] brewfasa#4532
if in actuality it doesnt win as much

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] levi#6206
Well I’m arguing independently of its brokenness right now

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] brewfasa#4532
coz there’s literally no reason to even bring it up

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] Coconut#8762
why

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] brewfasa#4532
if otherwise

[01-Apr-20 04:54 PM] Coconut#8762
why are we arguing independently of brokeness

[01-Apr-20 04:55 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s the same bs dcae tried to spin with hurricane misses

[01-Apr-20 04:55 PM] levi#6206
Because I’m arguing that it’s uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:55 PM] Coconut#8762
but the points you're making

[01-Apr-20 04:55 PM] Coconut#8762
justify that it's broken AND uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:55 PM] Coconut#8762
not that it's uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 04:55 PM] Coconut#8762
you're throwing out the most prominent reason to ban this mon

[01-Apr-20 04:56 PM] levi#6206
Rufflet might be broken too but I’m not justifying the suspect off of that train of thought right now

[01-Apr-20 04:58 PM] Coconut#8762
the reason it's uncompetitive is because it is broken

[01-Apr-20 04:58 PM] Coconut#8762
unless you're trying to say that this mon is not broken (see fatty's point about dcae's point about wingull), I don't see from what standpoint you can argue otherwise

[01-Apr-20 05:00 PM] levi#6206
But it could be banworthy for multiple reasons

[01-Apr-20 05:01 PM] levi#6206
Like

[01-Apr-20 05:01 PM] levi#6206
It could be banworthy on brokenness too but right now I’m trying to say it’s uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 05:03 PM] levi#6206
My argument is that *even* if it’s not broken, i.e. it only wins 50% of the time

[01-Apr-20 05:04 PM] levi#6206
Then you would have a mon that has this win ratio but is still almost impossible to deal with in the builder. It negates that part of building skill

[01-Apr-20 05:04 PM] levi#6206
The anti rufflet option is instead to rely on dodges

[01-Apr-20 05:04 PM] levi#6206
Which is independent of player skill

[01-Apr-20 05:05 PM] levi#6206
This makes it uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 05:05 PM] levi#6206
Stone edge isn’t uncompetitive bc every stone edge user is still very very comfortably counterable

[01-Apr-20 05:05 PM] levi#6206
Focus blast isn’t uncompetitive bc its users don’t exist

[01-Apr-20 05:09 PM] brewfasa#4532
I’m telling u bro no one tiers like this

[01-Apr-20 05:09 PM] brewfasa#4532
go ask uu why Durant was banned

[01-Apr-20 05:09 PM] brewfasa#4532
not one person will say because it’s it’s uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 05:10 PM] brewfasa#4532
it’s because it has no damn counters

[01-Apr-20 05:10 PM] brewfasa#4532
which w/e call that uncompetitive or w/e definition you want

[01-Apr-20 05:10 PM] brewfasa#4532
but I know that’s not what ur getting at

[01-Apr-20 05:11 PM] brewfasa#4532
ur just trying to think too hard abt it to somehow shoehorn an argument in to justify an early suspect

[01-Apr-20 05:13 PM] levi#6206
I literally started a suspect last gen off of an outright weaker version of the same argument

[01-Apr-20 05:13 PM] levi#6206
And the suspect resulted in a ban too

[01-Apr-20 05:13 PM] brewfasa#4532
Whether it resulted in a ban or not doesn’t mean shit

[01-Apr-20 05:13 PM] Coconut#8762
what does that have to do with this

[01-Apr-20 05:14 PM] brewfasa#4532
idek what ur referencing tho

[01-Apr-20 05:14 PM] brewfasa#4532
atm

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] levi#6206
I’m referencing wingull

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] brewfasa#4532
ur gonna argue w/ me

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] brewfasa#4532
abt your wingull logic

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] levi#6206
I’m saying that we considered wingull banworthy last gen for the same line of reasoning but that line of reasoning is stronger now

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] levi#6206
And you’re accusing me of using this line of reasoning only because I want the rufflet suspect now

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] brewfasa#4532
I already told u how lame that comparison is

[01-Apr-20 05:15 PM] brewfasa#4532
and it was terrible logic

[01-Apr-20 05:16 PM] brewfasa#4532
during full suspect anyways

[01-Apr-20 05:16 PM] brewfasa#4532
gull

[01-Apr-20 05:16 PM] levi#6206
Ok I know you disagreed with it

[01-Apr-20 05:17 PM] brewfasa#4532
I’m done w/ this anyways I literally don’t get your line of thinking

[01-Apr-20 05:17 PM] brewfasa#4532
so don’t see a point

[01-Apr-20 05:18 PM] brewfasa#4532
curious if anyone else can help explain what I’m missing

[01-Apr-20 05:21 PM] hongli#4483
wingull had decent checks

[01-Apr-20 05:21 PM] hongli#4483
the problem w gull was that it could just scald burn through them

[01-Apr-20 05:21 PM] hongli#4483
and make them irrelevant

[01-Apr-20 05:22 PM] hongli#4483
ruff doesn't need luck to break through its supposed checks

[01-Apr-20 05:22 PM] hongli#4483
it needs (un)luck to not get around them

[01-Apr-20 05:22 PM] hongli#4483
how's that not just an issue of it being broken rather than uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] levi#6206
How are you defining uncompetitiveness

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Luthier#1578
i think ruff should be considered as having a 180 BP fighting move and a flying stab

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Coconut#8762
with 80% acc

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Luthier#1578
that coverage kills everything on the tier

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Luthier#1578
ye

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Coconut#8762
I can agree with that

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Luthier#1578
w 80 acc

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Coconut#8762
to an extent

[01-Apr-20 05:25 PM] Luthier#1578
but like the thing is

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] hongli#4483
the uncompetitive aspect of wingull was that it could easily break through its checks with reasonable RNG

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
lets consider the viability of megatar

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
just for reference

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
if thats cool

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
megatar is basically always running stone edge

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
and it hits like a truck

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
w 100 BP

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
now lets compare the idea of "luck"

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
from there to LC

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] hongli#4483
wingull beats its checks 30% or 52% of the time with RNG

[01-Apr-20 05:26 PM] Luthier#1578
you are always going to be running stone edge and thats a viable move to click and bank on

[01-Apr-20 05:27 PM] Luthier#1578
80 is high enough where i think it can be considered uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 05:27 PM] hongli#4483
ruff beats its checks 80% of the time if you hit the right move

[01-Apr-20 05:29 PM] hongli#4483
is hitting an 80% accurate move really smth we're gonna be considering RNG like with wingull

[01-Apr-20 05:29 PM] hongli#4483
darumaka isnt uncompetitive because it has hustle

[01-Apr-20 05:29 PM] hongli#4483
it just cant get around its resists the same way ruff can bc of its coverage

[01-Apr-20 05:29 PM] hongli#4483
so is it not just an issue of ruff itself being too strong

[01-Apr-20 05:30 PM] levi#6206
Well darumaka is also missing every setup set and the typing needed to be completely uncounterable

[01-Apr-20 05:31 PM] hongli#4483
so rufflet is only uncompetitive because it's already broken

[01-Apr-20 05:31 PM] hongli#4483
to begin with?

[01-Apr-20 05:31 PM] levi#6206
If you can argue that it’s viable enough to warrant use and its counters are otherwise unviable though then maybe

[01-Apr-20 05:31 PM] levi#6206
Well I’m thinking that darumaka is just outright viable

[01-Apr-20 05:31 PM] levi#6206
Wingull wasn’t considered too strong when it was banned either

[01-Apr-20 05:32 PM] levi#6206
Though I guess rufflet is also that as well

[01-Apr-20 05:33 PM] levi#6206
I’m not seeing how the % matters as long as it’s large enough to reasonably be considered in the average game for uncompetitiveness

[01-Apr-20 05:33 PM] levi#6206
Uncompetitiveness is just taking the outcome of the game out of the players hands, in this case through luck

[01-Apr-20 05:34 PM] hongli#4483
percent doesn't matter

[01-Apr-20 05:34 PM] hongli#4483
excellent point

[01-Apr-20 05:38 PM] hongli#4483
idk what else to say without just repeating myself. wingull requires luck to break through its checks, rufflet breaks through its checks regardless

[01-Apr-20 05:38 PM] levi#6206
Only 80% of the time

[01-Apr-20 05:39 PM] levi#6206
That’s its counterplay

[01-Apr-20 05:39 PM] hongli#4483
so if the counterplay is hoping for a lucky miss

[01-Apr-20 05:39 PM] hongli#4483
then it's broken in terms of offensive capabilities

[01-Apr-20 05:40 PM] hongli#4483
banking on an 80% to hit is not banking on luck

[01-Apr-20 05:40 PM] hongli#4483
banking on a 30% like w gull scald is

[01-Apr-20 05:41 PM] hongli#4483
also this is all assuming rufflet even uses the correct move anyways on the switch

[01-Apr-20 05:41 PM] hongli#4483
since it ties pawn/is slower than onix

[01-Apr-20 05:41 PM] hongli#4483
wingull was faster than everything on its own already

[01-Apr-20 05:51 PM] jake#8907
what is even the debate here

[01-Apr-20 05:51 PM] jake#8907
the merits of suspecting ruff?

[01-Apr-20 05:52 PM] jake#8907
suspecting hustle?

[01-Apr-20 05:52 PM] jake#8907
i missed the early half of this so apologies if that's a dumb question

[01-Apr-20 05:54 PM] Coconut#8762
levi13Today at 4:33 PM
I’m reading rufflet as a matter of uncompetitiveness right now
Bc there’s hardly any protocol being broken to begin with
Like we give time to see how a mon is going to adapt, but a) rufflets uncompetitiveness is completely independent of its viability unless we expect cutie being banned to render rufflet unviable, b) even if we’re arguing for its brokenness it’s still a mon we’ve had to become intimately familiar with and half its sets never abused webs to begin w while the other half appreciated but didn’t necessarily require it
Giving time for the meta to settle is like the easiest part of protocol to justify skipping over
And lcpl of all things is probably the single best reason you could possibly find to justify it

[01-Apr-20 05:54 PM] Coconut#8762
started there

[01-Apr-20 06:08 PM] levi#6206
Ya

[01-Apr-20 06:09 PM] levi#6206
I think arguing for ruffs ban on uncompetitiveness is a valid train of thought even if it might -additionally- be broken

[01-Apr-20 06:21 PM] levi#6206
Also doka the way you describe it ruff sounds massively broken

[01-Apr-20 06:21 PM] levi#6206
But it’s still uncompetitive too

[01-Apr-20 06:21 PM] hongli#4483
i do think it's broken

[01-Apr-20 06:21 PM] hongli#4483
i just don't think it's uncompetitive in the same way wingull was

[01-Apr-20 06:22 PM] levi#6206
Instead of the wingull user relying on luck, the rufflets opponent is the one relying on luck instead

[01-Apr-20 06:22 PM] levi#6206
It’s still uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 06:22 PM] LilyAC#7887
wingull wasnt uncompetitive either

[01-Apr-20 06:24 PM] hongli#4483
i just really don't think having to rely on 80% accurate moves means its uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 06:24 PM] hongli#4483
tornadus-t relies on 70% accurate hurricane but it's not an issue

[01-Apr-20 06:24 PM] hongli#4483
because it doesn't have massive power potential like ruff does

[01-Apr-20 06:24 PM] LilyAC#7887
rufflet being able to miss is a reason against banning it if anything

[01-Apr-20 06:24 PM] hongli#4483
which is the broken part

[01-Apr-20 06:25 PM] levi#6206
Tornadus t’s hurricane isn’t a 1 shot against everything, you can counter tornadus

[01-Apr-20 06:25 PM] LilyAC#7887
if it was a 1 shot against everything

[01-Apr-20 06:25 PM] LilyAC#7887
then it would be broken not uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 06:25 PM] hongli#4483
not the accuracy

[01-Apr-20 06:25 PM] hongli#4483
yeah exactly

[01-Apr-20 06:26 PM] hongli#4483
it may have a lower overall WR bc of issues w misses

[01-Apr-20 06:26 PM] levi#6206
OHKO clause is a ton more extreme but it’s in the same line of thought, it might not give you a good win rate but it’s uncompetitive

[01-Apr-20 06:27 PM] hongli#4483
but that doesn't mean it's not still broken on account of pure dmg and team building strain

[01-Apr-20 06:28 PM] levi#6206
But like even if you think the switch from the user of the bird being reliant on the smaller chance to the opponent of the bird being reliant on the smaller chance excludes it from being uncompetitive (which I still don’t agree with)

[01-Apr-20 06:28 PM] levi#6206
Why would we need to wait a week to confirm that rufflet indeed is still uncounterable and misses

[01-Apr-20 06:31 PM] hongli#4483
well there r a lot more drawbacks to using ruff without webs

[01-Apr-20 06:32 PM] hongli#4483
it can actually be outsped so things like ponyta/onix threaten it

[01-Apr-20 06:32 PM] hongli#4483
and so the variant that most teams can fit on most easily is scarf

[01-Apr-20 06:33 PM] hongli#4483
which is easier to deal with than others

[01-Apr-20 06:33 PM] levi#6206
I’m not comfortable reading pony as a serious ruff answer at all

[01-Apr-20 06:34 PM] hongli#4483
well if you're outsped by pony

[01-Apr-20 06:34 PM] hongli#4483
then you get burned

[01-Apr-20 06:34 PM] hongli#4483
i just mean

[01-Apr-20 06:34 PM] hongli#4483
more things can soft check ruff

[01-Apr-20 06:34 PM] hongli#4483
without webs

[01-Apr-20 06:35 PM] hongli#4483
so is that not reason to see if in this meta it's potentially not broken

[01-Apr-20 06:35 PM] levi#6206
Ya I get that the band set and maybe some bu bj sets get more soft checkable

[01-Apr-20 06:35 PM] levi#6206
Well

[01-Apr-20 06:35 PM] levi#6206
Rkillable not soft checkable

[01-Apr-20 06:35 PM] levi#6206
None of them can switch in obv

[01-Apr-20 06:38 PM] levi#6206
I guess none of this works if you aren’t convinced that the reasoning for wingull was valid though

[01-Apr-20 06:38 PM] levi#6206
My argument for its uncompetitiveness mostly rests on its case for that being stronger than sm wingulls

[01-Apr-20 06:41 PM] hongli#4483
do you mean smth along the lines of

[01-Apr-20 06:42 PM] hongli#4483
wingull may have been more rng-reliant but the rng that occurs around ruff is more impactful because of how much stronger it is

[01-Apr-20 06:42 PM] hongli#4483
and so it's uncompetitive?

[01-Apr-20 06:43 PM] hongli#4483
i wouldn't agree bc i would still view that as a facet of ruff just being flat out broken but ig i could understand what you're saying then

[01-Apr-20 06:46 PM] levi#6206
Rufflet is equally rng reliant

[01-Apr-20 06:47 PM] levi#6206
In wingulls case the wingull user is doing the lucking, in rufflets case the rufflet users opponent is doing the lucking

[01-Apr-20 06:47 PM] levi#6206
But that doesn’t matter wrt the actual degree of rng involved

[01-Apr-20 06:48 PM] levi#6206
And then it’s additionally more impactful ya

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