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- EXECUTIVE SESSION
- COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
- JOINT WITH THE
- COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT,
- U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
- WASHINGTON, D.C.
- INTERVIEW OF:
- JAMES COMEY
- Friday, December 7, 2018
- Washington, D.C.
- The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2141,
- Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:12 a.m.
- Members Present: Representatives Goodlatte, Issa, King,
- Gohmert, Jordan, Buck, Ratcliffe, Gaetz, Biggs, Nadler, Jackson
- Lee, Cohen, Deutch, Bass, Gowdy, Sanford, Meadows, Hurd,
- 2
- Cummings, Cooper, Krishnamoorthi, Gomez, and Plaskett.
- 3
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- James Comey.
- This is a transcribed interview of
- Chairman Gowdy and I requested this interview as
- part of a joint investigation by the House Committee on the
- Judiciary and the House Committee on Oversight and Government
- Reform into decisions made and not made by the Department of
- Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding the
- 2016 Presidential election.
- Would the witness please state his name and the last
- position he held at the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the
- record?
- Mr. Comey.
- Certainly, Mr. Chairman.
- My name is James
- Brien Comey, Jr., and my last position was Director until May
- 9th of 2017.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- today.
- I want to thank you for appearing
- My name is Bob Goodlatte.
- I am chairman of the Judiciary
- Committee, and I will now ask everyone else who is here in the
- room, other than Mr. Comey's personal counsel, who we will get
- to in a moment, to introduce themselves for the record.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Trey Gowdy, South Carolina.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Biggs.
- Mr. Buck.
- John Ratcliffe, Texas.
- Mark Meadows, North Carolina.
- Jim Jordan, Ohio.
- Andy Biggs, Arizona.
- Ken Buck, Colorado.
- 4
- Mr. Don.
- Ethan Don, FBI.
- Ms. Bessee.
- Cecilia Bessee, FBI.
- Mr. Parmiter.
- Robert Parmiter, House Judiciary Committee
- staff.
- Mr. Baker.
- Arthur Baker, House Judiciary Committee staff.
- Mr. Somers.
- Zach Somers, House Judiciary Committee,
- majority.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Mr. King.
- Jerrold Nadler, New York.
- Steve King, Iowa, Four.
- Mr. Gomez.
- Jimmy Gomez, California.
- Mr. Cooper.
- Jim Cooper, Fifth District of Tennessee.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Steve Cohen, Memphis.
- Ms. Bass.
- Karen Bass, California.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Elijah Cummings, Maryland.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Sheila Jackson Lee, Texas.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Mr. Breitenbach.
- Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois.
- Ryan Breitenbach, House Judiciary
- Committee staff.
- Mr. Ventura.
- Chris Ventura, House Judiciary Committee
- staff.
- Ms. Husband.
- Mr. Castor.
- Shelley Husband, House Judiciary, majority.
- Steve Castor, Oversight and Government
- Reform.
- Mr. Buddharaju.
- Government Reform.
- Anudeep Buddharaju, Oversight and
- 5
- Ms. Doocy.
- Mary Doocy.
- Ms. Greene.
- Emily Greene.
- Mr. Gaetz.
- Matt Gaetz, Florida, House Judiciary
- Committee.
- Mr. Ritchie.
- Mr. Dalton.
- Branden Ritchie, House Judiciary, majority.
- Jason Dalton, FBI Congressional Affairs.
- Ms. Hariharan.
- Ms. Shen.
- Arya Hariharan, House Judiciary, minority
- Valerie Shen, House Oversight and Government
- Reform.
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- Susanne Sachsman Grooms, House
- Oversight.
- Mr. Thadani.
- Akhil Thadani, House Judiciary, Democrat.
- Mr. Gohmert.
- Louie Gohmert.
- Mr. Sanford.
- Mark Sanford, House Judiciary.
- Mr. Apelbaum.
- Mr. Hiller.
- Perry Apelbaum.
- Aaron Hiller, House Judiciary, minority.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
- do not apply in this setting, but there are some guidelines that
- we follow that I'd like to go over.
- in rounds.
- Our questioning will proceed
- The majority will ask questions first for an hour,
- and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions
- for an equal period of time.
- We will go back and forth in this
- manner until there are no more questions and the interview is
- over.
- Typically, we take a short break at the end of each hour
- 6
- of questioning, but if you would like to take a break apart from
- that, please let us know.
- We also may take a break for lunch
- at the appropriate point.
- As I noted earlier, you are appearing today voluntarily.
- Accordingly, we anticipate that our questions will receive
- complete responses.
- To the extent that you decline to answer
- our questions or if counsel instructs you not to answer, we will
- consider whether a subpoena is necessary.
- As you can see, there is an official reporter taking down
- everything that is said to make a written record, so we ask that
- you give verbal responses to all questions, and I know you
- understand that.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, sir.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- So that the reporter can take down a
- clear record, it is important that we don't talk over one another
- or interrupt each other if we can help it.
- Both committees
- encourage witnesses who appear for transcribed interviews to
- freely consult with counsel if they so choose, and you are
- appearing today with counsel.
- Could counsel for Mr. Comey please state their names for
- the record?
- Mr. Kelley.
- Yes, Mr. Chairman.
- It is David N. Kelley from
- Dechert LLP.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- We want you to answer our questions
- in the most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will
- 7
- take our time.
- If you have any questions or if you do not
- understand one of our questions, please let us know.
- If you
- honestly do not know the answer to a question or do not remember
- it, it is best not to guess.
- recollection.
- Please give us your best
- It is okay to tell us if you learned information
- from someone else.
- If there are things you don't know or can't
- remember, just say so, and please inform us who, to the best of
- your knowledge, might be able to provide a more complete answer
- to the question.
- Mr. Comey, you should also understand that, although this
- interview is not under oath, you are required by law to answer
- questions from Congress truthfully.
- Do you understand that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, I do, sir.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- This also applies to questions posed
- by congressional staff in an interview.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you understand this?
- Yes, sir.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- Witnesses who knowingly provide false
- testimony could be subject to criminal prosecution for perjury
- or for making false statements.
- Do you understand this?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, I do.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- Is there any reason you are unable to
- provide truthful answers to today's questions?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, sir.
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- Chairman Goodlatte.
- Finally, I'd like to just note that,
- as was discussed last weekend with your attorneys with regard
- to withdrawing your motion to quash our subpoena, we anticipate,
- after speaking with the Clerk's Office, that we will be able to
- provide a copy of the transcript of today's interview sometime
- tomorrow.
- In the meantime, as we also discussed with your attorneys,
- you are free to discuss today's interview publicly once it is
- concluded.
- Chairman Gowdy and I ask that everyone else here in
- the room also refrain from speaking publicly about today's
- interview until it has concluded.
- That is the end of my preamble.
- Do you have any questions
- before we begin?
- Mr. Gaetz.
- Matt Gaetz from Florida.
- I wanted to state
- that I was not a party to any such agreement and don't consider
- myself bound by it.
- I also don't know of any provision in the
- Constitution, the rules of the House, or any Federal law that
- would prohibit members of the committee from engaging in free
- speech, debate, and opining at any time.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Mr. Chairman, I think -- I do intend to comply
- with the representations we made to this witness.
- encourage all of my colleagues to do so.
- I would
- There's a reason that
- we have something called the rule of completeness.
- It is
- manifestly unfair to take part of what someone says and disregard
- the whole.
- I also think there's an argument to be made that when
- 9
- the chairman of a committee makes a representation to a witness,
- that it should not only bind the members of the committee, but
- it also reflects poorly on the House as an institution to not
- abide by what the chairman represented.
- So I will abide by what the chairman agreed to with this
- and other witnesses, and I would encourage all of my colleagues
- to do so, if, for no other reason, to protect the integrity of
- the House and because that's what serious investigations do.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Mr. Chairman.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- The gentleman from New York, the
- ranking member.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Thank you.
- Mr. Chairman, I find myself in
- rare but happy agreement with Mr. Gowdy.
- I think
- representations were made to the witness.
- I think we ought to
- be bound by it.
- And I think that if Mr. Gaetz does not consider himself
- bound by it, he should perhaps be asked to leave at this point,
- as should anybody else who tells us upfront they will not feel
- bound by what this committee has represented to the witnesses.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- I will not ask him to leave since he
- hasn't violated the commitment we have made.
- However, I would
- ask him to respect that this is a representation made by all of
- the members of these two committees by the chairmen of the
- committees.
- And, yes, you did not make the representation
- yourself; I understand that.
- But it is important that we respect
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- the integrity of this interview.
- And, with that, the time -Mr. Gohmert.
- Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
- Wasn't
- the terms that you just dictated part of an agreement that was
- in lieu of litigation, sort of a settlement agreement rather than
- litigate the subpoena?
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- It is correct that, in the proceedings
- that were ongoing last weekend with regard to Mr. Comey's motion
- to quash the subpoena that I issued, that an understanding was
- reached that he would appear voluntarily for a private
- transcribed interview with the conditions that I read a moment
- earlier.
- Mr. Gohmert.
- So it is actually an agreement between the
- parties that ended litigation, which normally is enforceable.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- I think that is correct.
- The time is now 10:20.
- We will get started with the first
- round of questions.
- Mr. Kelley.
- If I may, Mr. Chairman, before we start, I
- appreciate very much you having read the terms of the agreement,
- which you did so accurately, and we appreciate that.
- And given
- the comments of Mr. Gaetz, we appreciate and will be sure that
- the chairmen of both committees will do the best they can to
- ensure that the terms of the agreement are abided.
- Mr. Comey is here voluntarily, as you said, for the
- interview.
- He looks forward to answering your questions
- 11
- concerning the subject matter that you laid out.
- We are getting
- a little bit late start, but we have a hard stop at 4:15, and
- we think we can get a lot done until that time.
- Should there
- be any additional questions thereafter, we can certainly talk
- about how to accomplish that best, should there be a need to
- schedule a subsequent opportunity to interview him.
- We also
- would like your indulgence for maybe a short 30-minute, if less,
- break for lunch.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- We definitely will take that into
- account.
- And, with that, the chair recognizes the chairman of the
- Oversight Committee, Mr. Gowdy.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Good morning, Director Comey.
- I'm going to go
- through the first series of questions in an unusually leading
- way, but that is in the interest of time and -Chairman Goodlatte.
- I think we have to say that if we do
- have a hard stop today at 4:15, we're going to have to agree that
- we will continue it at another time, because we, I think, run
- the risk that we'll not ask all the questions that need to be
- asked by that time.
- Mr. Kelley.
- And as I said, Mr. Chairman, if there are
- additional questions and a compelling need to have another
- opportunity, we can talk about how to schedule that.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Chairman, I guess what I would rather do
- is have -- before we get into questioning, let's have an
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- understanding that the 4:15 hard stop is new information right
- now.
- And I think in a spirit of being here voluntarily, we need
- to have an understanding that if all the questions are not asked
- and answered, that an agreement to agree in the future is
- certainly a problem, Mr. Chairman.
- Mr. Kelley.
- What I agreed to do in the future, sir, is to
- schedule another time.
- Mr. Meadows.
- That's fine.
- As long as we're agreeing to
- schedule another time, that's fine.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Director Comey, Peter Strzok was an FBI agent
- who was assigned to the Clinton Espionage Act investigation.
- Do
- I have that right?
- Mr. Comey.
- That is correct.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What was his title?
- Mr. Comey.
- His title was special agent.
- I think he had
- a variety of different supervisory assignments during the
- pendency of that investigation from mid-2015 to the end of '16.
- I don't remember exactly what those were.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did he interview witnesses?
- Mr. Comey.
- Did he interview witnesses?
- Yes, he did during
- the Clinton investigation, is my understanding.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did he review documents?
- Mr. Comey.
- My understanding is, yes, he did review
- documents.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did he provide advice, counsel, insight to you
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- in your role as the Director?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- I'm just hesitating over the
- description of advice, counsel.
- He was a supervisory special
- agent of some role who would periodically brief me on the status
- of the investigation, was his primary responsibility as it
- related to me.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- artfully.
- Let me see if I can ask the question more
- Did he help you prepare or edit your July 5th press
- statement?
- Mr. Comey.
- July 5th press statement?
- Yes, he did help
- edit that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- 2016.
- Lisa Page, she was an attorney with the FBI in
- Is that right?
- Mr. Comey.
- Lisa Page, yes, that is correct.
- Lisa Page was
- an attorney I think before 2016, but certainly during 2016
- assigned to the Office of General Counsel.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What role did she have with the Clinton
- Espionage Act investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Lisa Page's role in the investigation into
- whether Hillary Clinton had mishandled classified information
- was in her capacity as a lawyer assigned to support the Deputy
- Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did she assist you in drafting or editing your
- July 5th press statement?
- Mr. Comey.
- I believe she did assist in drafting -- or
- 14
- editing the statement of July 2016.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So, from January 2016 up until your July 5th
- press statement, it is fair to say that both Special Agent Peter
- Strzok and FBI Attorney Lisa Page were working on the Clinton
- Espionage Act or mishandling of classified information
- investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- The reason I'm hesitating, Mr. Gowdy, is I've
- never applied the label of Espionage Act investigation.
- It was
- an investigation into the mishandling of classified information.
- I don't mean to quibble, but that's how I thought of it and talked
- about it.
- Yes, they each participated in some respect in that
- investigation or in our public statement about the investigation
- and things like that.
- Mr. Gowdy. February of 2016, Lisa Page wrote:
- Trump simply
- cannot be President.
- February of 2016, Peter Strzok wrote:
- Trump's abysmal,
- hoping people will just dump him.
- February of 2016, Lisa Page wrote:
- President.
- She might be our next
- The last thing you need us going in there loaded for
- bear.
- March 2016, Lisa Page wrote:
- Trump is a loathsome human.
- March of 2016, Strzok wrote:
- Trump's an idiot.
- March of 2016, Strzok wrote:
- Hillary should win 100
- million to zero.
- 15
- Do you recall whether the Democrat primary was still ongoing
- in March of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm not in a position to answer -- you gave a
- long preamble to that about things that I don't know from my own
- knowledge.
- So I'm going to exclude that part of your preamble
- and just answer the question at the end.
- Do I know whether the Democratic primary was ongoing in
- March of 2016?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I think so, yes.
- Well, let me back up, in fairness to you, and
- ask whether or not you've had a chance to read any of the text
- exchanges between Peter Strzok and Lisa Page?
- Mr. Comey.
- I've seen some of them in the open source, in
- the media, obviously, since I was fired as Director.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you read any of them in preparation for
- today?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I did not.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So, if you are correct that the Democratic
- primary was still open in March of 2016, I read that as Special
- Agent Peter Strzok commenting that she should win the primary
- 100 million to zero.
- And I guess an alternative reading of that would be that
- he already had her as the nominee and she should win the general
- 100 million to zero.
- Is there another reading other than those two, winning the
- primary or winning the general?
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- Mr. Comey.
- I'm not in a position to interpret their text
- exchanges, so I can't answer that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- In the course of human history, has anyone won
- an election 100 million to zero, to your knowledge?
- Mr. Comey.
- In the United States?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Anywhere.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't mean to be facetious.
- I can't speak
- to Stalin's reelection or Mao Tse-tung reelection campaigns.
- In -Mr. Gowdy.
- 100 million to zero is a lot.
- Mr. Comey.
- Sure.
- I'm not trying to be facetious, but I
- remember as a student the vote in Soviet Russia was 99.9 percent
- to -Mr. Gowdy.
- We are going to get to Russia in a little bit.
- We'll get to Russia in a little bit.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So in the -- I can answer your question,
- In the United States, I'm not aware of any such
- lopsided vote.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So, in March of 2016, Peter Strzok is
- investigating Secretary Clinton -- we'll use your phrase -- for
- the alleged mishandling of classified information.
- And at least
- according to this text, he has her winning the primary and/or
- the general election.
- Mr. Comey.
- Is that fair?
- I can't answer that because I don't know the
- text or what the intention was.
- So I'm just not the witness to
- 17
- answer that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- How about the plain language of the text, what
- do you interpret that to mean?
- Mr. Comey.
- I really can't without knowing them and knowing
- the context of them.
- I'm just not your best witness to answer
- that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- July of 2016, do you know which agent
- interviewed Secretary Clinton?
- Mr. Comey.
- I believe two FBI agents participated in the
- July interview of Secretary Clinton, one of which was Peter
- Strzok, and the other was another veteran special agent.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know the other veteran special agent's
- Mr. Comey.
- I think so.
- name?
- I'm hesitating only because I may
- butcher his name, and I don't know whether the FBI wants the names
- of special agents on a public record.
- Ms. Bessee.
- So I think I know his name.
- If the agent is not at the SES level and above,
- you probably cannot state the name.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When you say "probably cannot," is that a legal
- prohibition, or is that an FBI policy prohibition?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- An FBI policy and a DOJ policy prohibition.
- Does the FBI take the position that that's
- binding on Congress?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Based on my direction from the FBI Director
- and from the Deputy Attorney General's Office, that is our
- 18
- direction.
- We can go back and ask the question if we can reveal
- the name.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, how about do that for me.
- For the
- meantime, we'll just refer to that person as FBI Agent 1.
- Director Comey, after the Clinton interview on July 2nd,
- if memory serves, 2016, FBI Agent 1 wrote:
- "I'm done
- interviewing the President," dash, and then typed 302.
- Another FBI employee responded:
- You interviewed the
- President, question mark.
- And FBI Agent 1 wrote back:
- You know, HRC.
- A couple days later, you were before Congress, and you said,
- among other things, "The decision was made and the recommendation
- was made the way you would want it to be, by people who didn't
- give a hoot about politics."
- Now, Representative Ratcliffe is going to go into how that
- decision was made.
- My question to you is, had you known about
- these texts, would you have kept Peter Strzok and Lisa Page on
- the Espionage Act/mishandling of classified information case?
- Mr. Comey.
- In your question, Mr. Gowdy, you talked about
- texts that I'm not aware of that involve an agent other than Peter
- Strzok or FBI employee other than Peter Strzok and Lisa Page,
- so I can't answer that part of it.
- To the extent you're asking about communications of Page
- and Strzok, if I had known about those things that they were
- communicating that I've seen in open source, I would not have
- 19
- had them stay on the -- playing any role in connection with that
- investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would you have fired them?
- Mr. Comey.
- That I can't answer in the abstract.
- I'd
- certainly want the FBI disciplinary process to work and to look
- at it, to decide whether discipline was appropriate and what that
- would be.
- But I can't answer the ultimate question.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- But if I understood your answer to the first
- part of that correct, you would not have allowed them to remain
- on the Clinton investigation had you been aware of those texts.
- Mr. Comey.
- My judgment would have been -- and based -- the
- challenge for me is I haven't read all the texts, but based on
- what I saw -- have seen in the media since I left the FBI, that
- unless there was some explanation for that that I was missing,
- in my judgment, they wouldn't have remained part of the
- investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- in the abstract.
- Well, I don't want you to answer that question
- Peter Strzok did offer a justification.
- said that he was not biased for Clinton or against Trump.
- He
- Not
- that his bias didn't impact his work, he got around to that later.
- He just said he wasn't biased.
- So, if you had brought him in and he had said, "Oh, but,
- Director Comey, I know I said he was a loathsome human being and
- I know I said that she should win 100 million to zero, but that
- doesn't mean I can't do my job," because that is certainly what
- 20
- he told my Democrat colleagues, which they bought, so my question
- is, would you have bought that?
- Would you have left him on the
- investigation had you known about these texts?
- Mr. Comey.
- I would have certainly been open to listening
- to any explanation, but when you're the leader of a justice
- agency, the appearance of bias is as important as the existence
- of actual bias.
- And although I have seen no evidence of any bias in any of
- the participants in that effort, the appearance of bias would
- have been very important to me.
- So I -- again, it's hard to go
- back and live a life you didn't live, but I would imagine my
- judgment would have been you can't remain on the case.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When Special Counsel Mueller was made aware of
- the texts, he did immediately kick Strzok off of his team.
- Do
- you have any reason to disagree with his decision?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- I don't know the details of his decision,
- but, again, I've seen the open source reporting to that.
- And
- if that's true, it's a reasonable decision by a reasonable
- leader.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And you believe, as we sit here today, that had
- you been aware of the texts contemporaneously, you too would have
- kicked Strzok off of the Midyear Exam investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think I answered that one already.
- I would
- certainly be open to an explanation that I don't know, can't
- imagine sitting here.
- But absent an explanation, the appearance
- 21
- issue would have been very important to me, and it's unlikely
- I would have left him on the case.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Why is the appearance of bias as insidious as
- actual bias?
- Mr. Comey.
- The appearance of bias is as important.
- I
- don't know exactly what the word "insidious" means, so I'm not
- saying that one.
- It's as important as actual bias because the
- faith and confidence of the American people that your work is
- done in an independent, fair, and competent way matters
- enormously.
- And so a reasonable appearance of bias can corrupt
- that faith in your work as much as actual bias can.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Had you known about the texts
- contemporaneously, would you have allowed Peter Strzok and Lisa
- Page to move from the Espionage Act or mishandling investigation
- to the Russia investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I would have thought of it the same way, in that
- if either bias or appearance of bias, political bias, is very
- important to not have as part of your investigative work.
- So
- I would have thought that way about any investigation that was
- likely to touch the public interest in the way that that
- investigation did.
- So most likely I would think about it the
- same way.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth,
- but I do want to gain as much clarity as I can into this.
- You -- if I understand you correctly, you believe you would have
- 22
- not kept them on either investigation, but you would be open to
- an explanation, but you can't think of what that explanation
- could have been that would have persuaded you to keep them?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's right.
- I try as a leader always to be
- open to things I might be missing, but absent something like that,
- I think it's likely -- again, it's hard to live a life you didn't
- live.
- But it's likely I wouldn't have kept them on the case for
- that reason, the reasons I said.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- If you had gained familiarity with a text from
- Lisa Page where she said, "Please tell me Trump won't ever be
- President," and Strzok responded, "No, no, he won't, we'll stop
- it," do you think you would have kept them on the investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think of -- again, assuming you're recounting
- actual texts, I would think of it in the same way I thought of
- the ones you recounted earlier.
- I'd be concerned about bias or
- the perception of bias, and -- so I think about it the same way
- I thought about the earlier text you laid out.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, I want to remain open-minded to any other
- interpretations of that text, but what other interpretation
- could there be:
- Please tell me he won't be President.
- period, no, comma, He won't.
- No,
- We'll stop it.
- What explanation could there be that was benign enough to
- leave them on the very investigation they were commenting on?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- And that -- I think that's what
- it means to be open-minded, to give people a chance to explain
- 23
- something and then to think about their explanation.
- I don't
- know what it would be, and maybe there's none, but -- yeah, that's
- how I would think about it.
- Is there some explanation for this?
- If there is, tell me
- what it is, and then I'll make a judgment based on that.
- I can't
- get inside the head of people writing texts that I never saw,
- so that's why it's a little tricky for me to answer.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What was the Russia investigation?
- When you
- hear the phrase "Russia investigation," what do you think?
- Mr. Comey.
- To my mind, the term "Russia investigation"
- often refers to two different things:
- First, the investigation
- to understand what are the Russians doing to interfere in our
- election during the 2015-16 period; and then, second, it's often
- used to refer to the counterintelligence investigations that the
- FBI opened in late July.
- And so I hear it used interchangeably there, and those two
- things obviously connect, but I've always thought of it in two
- separate elements.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Okay.
- We'll go with that.
- Late July of 2016,
- the FBI did, in fact, open a counterintelligence investigation
- into, is it fair to say the Trump campaign or Donald Trump
- himself?
- Mr. Comey.
- It's not fair to say either of those things,
- in my recollection.
- We opened investigations on four Americans
- to see if there was any connection between those four Americans
- 24
- and the Russian interference effort.
- And those four Americans
- did not include the candidate.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall who drafted the FBI's initiation
- document for that late July 2016 Russia investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I do not.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would you disagree that it was Peter Strzok?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know one way or the other.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know who approved that draft of an
- initial plan for the Russia investigation in late July 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would you disagree that it was Peter Strzok?
- Mr. Comey.
- That Peter Strzok approved?
- I don't know one
- way or the other.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Drafted and approved it.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know one way or the other.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Have you read that initiation document?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think so.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you recall seeing the phrase "Trump
- I don't remember ever seeing
- it.
- campaign" in that initiation document?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, I don't remember seeing it, ever seeing
- it, so certainly don't remember any portion of it, because I don't
- remember ever seeing it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- If it said Trump campaign, do you still have
- the same answer you had when I asked you whether or not it involved
- 25
- the Trump campaign?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's a question, Mr. Gowdy, I can't answer
- without having seen the document.
- So I'd be speculating about
- a document I don't think I've ever seen.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, I want to be fair to you and make sure
- I understand your testimony.
- You have not, did not read the FBI
- initiation document that launched the Russia investigation, or
- you read it and do not recall what it said?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember ever seeing it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- How does the FBI launch counterintelligence
- investigations?
- Mr. Comey.
- What documents are required?
- I don't know for sure because it's opened far
- below the Director's level.
- But there's documentation in
- criminal investigations and in counterintelligence
- investigations to explain the predication for the opening of a
- file, that is, the basis for the opening of a file.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who at the FBI has the authority to launch a
- counterintelligence investigation into a major political
- campaign, and would that eventually have to be approved by you?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for a variety of reasons.
- I've
- never encountered a circumstance where an investigation into a
- political campaign was launched, and so I don't know how that
- would be done.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And -- so that's my best answer to that question.
- When did you learn there was a
- counterintelligence investigation into potential Russian ties
- 26
- with the Trump campaign?
- Mr. Comey.
- I was briefed sometime at the end of July that
- the FBI had opened counterintelligence investigations of four
- individuals to see if there was a connection between those -- any
- of those four and the Russian effort.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And who were those four individuals?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think that the Bureau has said that
- publicly, and so I'm not going to answer that unless it's okay
- with the government.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, lucky for us we have the Bureau right here
- with us.
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Chairman, my understanding, this is an
- unclassified setting, and also anything that goes to the special
- counsel's ongoing investigation would be off limits for this
- witness to be able to respond to if they are individuals that
- are currently being looked at or investigated as part of the
- Russian investigation, the ongoing Russian investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- position.
- Let me make sure I understand the Bureau's
- The former Director, actually the Director at the
- time, can confirm publicly that there is a counterintelligence
- investigation, but he cannot now tell us who that
- counterintelligence investigation involved?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- That is correct.
- Director Comey, can you tell us the factual
- predicate that may have led to the launching of that
- 27
- counterintelligence investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think that I can describe the factual
- predicate for two reasons:
- I don't remember precisely; and to
- the extent I remember, I think those are classified facts that
- implicate the concern the Bureau just expressed.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Some of our friends in the media use the word
- "collusion" from time to time.
- Mr. Comey.
- What is the crime of collusion?
- What is the crime of collusion?
- I do not know.
- I've never heard the term "collusion" used in the way it's been
- used in our world over the last couple years before that.
- know of a crime that involves collusion.
- I don't
- I think in terms of
- conspiracy or aiding and abetting.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- With counterintelligence investigations, is
- there always a criminal component or sometimes a criminal
- component?
- Mr. Comey.
- Counterintelligence investigations involve an
- effort to understand the plans and intentions and activities of
- a foreign adversary.
- tools to disrupt.
- Sometimes that leads to the use of criminal
- Sometimes it involves other tools to disrupt.
- So criminal is an element of counterintelligence investigations
- always because it's a potential tool to disrupt.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall your March 2017 testimony in an
- open setting before the House Intelligence Committee?
- Mr. Comey.
- In a general way.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- It was when I believe the Bureau first confirmed
- 28
- the existence of a counterintelligence investigation.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- I remember that.
- I remember generally
- it was in March, but sure.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall in what way you used the word
- "criminal" and at what point in your testimony?
- Mr. Comey.
- Without looking at the testimony, I don't.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall Rod Rosenstein's memo appointing
- special counsel?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I don't.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What is the difference between collusion and
- conspiracy?
- Mr. Comey.
- means.
- I don't know because I don't know what collusion
- It's a term I haven't heard in my career in the Justice
- Department, so I don't know.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Let's assume that collusion and conspiracy are
- synonyms, and we'll just use the word "conspiracy" because the
- word "collusion," despite its nonstop use, has no criminal
- consequences.
- Would it be a crime to access the DNC server or Podesta's
- email without permission or in an unlawful way?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's a hard one to answer in the abstract.
- It's potentially a crime whenever someone either, without
- authorization, enters a computer system or conspires to enter
- a computer system without authorization.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did the FBI, in July of 2016, have any evidence
- 29
- anyone in the Trump campaign conspired to hack the DNC server?
- Mr. Comey.
- Did we have evidence in July of '16 that anyone
- in the Trump campaign conspired to hack the DNC server?
- The
- challenge in answering that is -- and please don't take this
- nonanswer to imply that there is such information.
- I just -- I don't think that the FBI and special counsel
- want me answering questions that may relate to their
- investigation of Russian interference during 2016.
- And I worry
- that that would cross that line, Mr. Gowdy.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- Well, I'm not asking you what
- happened after the initiation.
- July 2016, when this was
- launched, when Peter Strzok drafted the initiation documents,
- did the FBI have evidence at the time that any member of the Trump
- campaign conspired to access the DNC server?
- Mr. Comey.
- And, again, the challenge with answering that
- is it's a slope to answering questions about what we did or didn't
- know about Russian activity and the connection of any Americans
- to it during 2016, and I think that implicates the same problem
- I just talked about.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, Director, we're trying to understand what
- the factual predicate for launching a counterintelligence
- investigation was.
- Mr. Comey.
- Sure.
- I understand the gravamen of your
- question.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- You can't tell us, or you won't tell us?
- 30
- Mr. Comey.
- Probably a combination of both; that is, as I
- said in response to your earlier question, I don't remember
- seeing the opening memos on counterintelligence cases opened in
- late July, so I can't recall exactly what the predication was.
- But, to the extent I recall facts developed during our
- investigation of Russian interference and the potential
- connection of Americans, I think that's a question that the FBI
- doesn't want me answering.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So it's both a can't and a won't.
- Do you believe your firing is evidence of
- obstruction of justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know that I can answer that question
- because I'm not -- because I'm a witness, in a sense.
- I don't
- know the universe of facts that would reflect on that, so I can't
- answer it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Have you ever had conversations with Rod
- Rosenstein where he indicated that he did not believe the
- contents of the memo he drafted?
- Mr. Comey.
- I've never had any conversation with Rod
- Rosenstein about the memo he drafted, assuming you mean the memo
- that related to my firing.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Yes.
- Mr. Comey.
- I've never had any conversation with him about
- that at all.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Have you read the memo?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- 31
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you think it lays out a defensible case for
- terminating you as the FBI Director?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Chairman, to the extent that question
- goes -- again, goes to the special counsel's investigation into
- obstruction, the witness will not be able to answer.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I think the whole world has read the memo
- and -- or most of the world.
- My question is whether or not
- Director Comey -- I think he's already answered he had no
- conversations with Rod Rosenstein.
- My question is, whether or not -- and he's entitled to his
- opinion -- whether or not he believes that that framed a
- sufficient factual basis for his termination as the FBI Director.
- Ms. Bessee.
- He is entitled to his opinion, but to the
- extent -- because he also stated that he is also a witness in
- the investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Which investigation is he a witness in?
- Ms. Bessee.
- To the special counsel.
- He said he is a
- potential witness.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, you just said witness.
- Is there an
- obstruction of justice investigation?
- Ms. Bessee.
- I believe there is an investigation that the
- special counsel is looking into.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, we all know that.
- Is it an obstruction
- of justice investigation?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Chairman, can you rephrase the question,
- 32
- please?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Yes.
- We all know that.
- Is it an obstruction
- of justice investigation?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Can you rephrase the question for the witness?
- Yes.
- Director Comey, you're familiar with the
- memo drafted by Rod Rosenstein.
- You have not talked to Rod
- Rosenstein, as I understand your testimony.
- Do you believe the
- memo, just on the cold four pages of the memo, four corners of
- that document, do you believe it provides sufficient basis for
- your termination?
- Even if you would have done it differently,
- is it a basis for your termination?
- Mr. Comey.
- I can't answer that, Mr. Chairman, because it
- requires me to get into the mind of the decisionmaker, who is
- the President, and I'm not in a position to do that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you have any evidence the memo was subterfuge
- to fire you, but not for the -- but for a different reason?
- Mr. Comey.
- I have no evidence at all about how the memo
- came to be created.
- I know that it was part of the documentation
- that was attached, what was sent to me, delivered to the FBI on
- the day I was fired.
- That's the only thing I have personal
- knowledge of.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Director Comey, I'd like to ask you some
- questions about the events surrounding your July 5th, 2016, press
- conference to announce your decision not to charge Hillary
- Clinton for the mishandling of classified information.
- 33
- One of the things that happened the week before that press
- conference was, on June 27th of 2016, a meeting between Attorney
- General Lynch and former President Bill Clinton, a meeting that
- got a lot of attention.
- Mr. Comey.
- 27th.
- Do you recall that?
- I do recall press coverage of a meeting on June
- Mr. Ratcliffe, one thing I have to make sure is clear.
- You said my decision not to prosecute Hillary Clinton.
- I made
- a recommendation on behalf of the FBI to the Department of
- Justice.
- I just want to make sure that's precise.
- I do recall
- the coverage around that meeting.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And that is a meeting that took place on
- a tarmac in Phoenix, Arizona?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's my recollection, yes, sir.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you agree that any discussion about the
- Hillary Clinton mishandling classified information
- investigation, as you called it today, between the Attorney
- General and the spouse of the subject of the investigation would
- have been inappropriate?
- Mr. Comey.
- investigation?
- Any discussion of the substance of the
- Potentially inappropriate.
- Again, I'd have to
- understand whether there was some other appropriate basis for
- the communication, but it would be concerning.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Potentially inappropriate is your answer.
- Also potentially illegal?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, that one's a hard one to answer.
- Any
- 34
- conversation is potentially illegal, depending on what people
- talk about.
- And so it would be potentially inappropriate,
- absent some explanation that would move it into the range of
- appropriate.
- That's why I'm giving you that answer because I
- don't know what was talked about.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Highly unusual for an Attorney General to
- meet with the spouse of the subject of one of her investigations.
- Do you agree with that?
- Mr. Comey.
- I would agree with that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And important to find out as much detail
- as possible about that conversation.
- Mr. Comey.
- Would you agree with that?
- I don't know that I would agree with that
- because the fact of the communication is in some ways more
- important than the substance of it.
- So I don't think I'd agree
- with that in the abstract.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Did you recall that Attorney General Lynch
- subsequently admitted that her actions in meeting with former
- President Clinton cast a shadow over the Department of Justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- I actually don't remember that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you remember what you said about the
- meeting on the tarmac?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- I mean, if you give me more context,
- maybe I'd remember.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall saying it was part of your
- decision, one of the factors in your decision to take the, I
- 35
- think, unprecedented step of holding the press conference on July
- 5th of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- I remember it being a factor, an
- important factor in my decision to step away from the Attorney
- General.
- contexts.
- I think I've talked about it in a variety of different
- But I was very concerned by the appearance of that
- interaction.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- You mentioned it was one of a number of
- things that caused you to take that action, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- One of those I believe you've testified
- previously was the fact that the Attorney General had asked you
- to refer to this investigation as a matter, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- That is correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- One of the other things that you were
- concerned about was material or documentation, as yet
- unverified, indicating some possible agreement between Attorney
- General Lynch and the Clinton campaign about the investigation,
- correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not that second piece because I've been
- very -- tried to be very careful in public comments about this.
- There was material that had not been verified that I believed
- if it became public would be used to cast doubt on whether the
- Attorney General had acted appropriately with respect to the
- investigation.
- I haven't gone -- I don't think I'm allowed to
- 36
- go beyond that in characterizing that material.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- It was information that would, you believe,
- if released, have caused some to question the objectivity of the
- Department of Justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Was there anything in that information that
- also would have raised questions about your objectivity or
- ability?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not to my knowledge.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Did you share with the Attorney General or
- the Deputy Attorney General or anyone at Main Justice your
- concerns that this information raised about the Attorney
- General's either real objectivity or the perception of her
- objectivity?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Who?
- Who did you raise that with?
- My recollection is that, at some point in the
- first half of 2016, both the Deputy -- that the Deputy Attorney
- General was briefed on the nature of that material, and at some
- time after that, the Attorney General was briefed and interviewed
- about the nature of that material.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you know who the Attorney General was
- interviewed by?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- I believe one of the
- participants in the conversation was the Deputy Director.
- At
- 37
- that point, it was Andrew McCabe.
- as well, is my recollection.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- But there were others present
- I was not there.
- Was there a discussion about the Attorney
- General needing to recuse herself as a result of that
- information?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not to my knowledge.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- In the event of an Attorney General
- recusal, what does the Department of Justice policy say about
- a succession order of authority?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is that the Department of
- Justice policy then makes the Deputy Attorney General the Acting
- Attorney General for purpose of that matter, that case.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So, at that point, in the days leading up
- to the July 5th press conference, had you concluded or did you
- think that Attorney General Loretta Lynch should not be able to
- make a decision about whether to prosecute Hillary Clinton for
- the mishandling of classified information?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember reaching that conclusion.
- I
- remember being concerned about whether she should remain
- involved, especially after the tarmac visit, tarmac
- conversation.
- But before I had an opportunity to discuss that
- with anyone at DOJ, the Attorney General announced that she would
- not recuse but would accept my recommendation and that of the
- career prosecutors.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And 5 days after that tarmac incident, the
- 38
- FBI and prosecutors from the Department of Justice did, in fact,
- interview Secretary -- former Secretary Clinton, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think it was 5 days.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- It was on July 2nd.
- It was the Saturday after that tarmac meeting.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- You mentioned some of the agents earlier.
- Do you know how many folks combined, from the FBI and the
- Department of Justice, were present for the interview of
- Secretary Clinton?
- Mr. Comey.
- The DOJ team for the interview of Secretary
- Clinton I think -- I could be wrong, but I think was five people:
- two special agents from the FBI and three lawyers from the
- Department of Justice.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- You did not participate in the interview?
- No, sir.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Who drafted the questions that Secretary
- Clinton was going to be asked?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Did you participate at all in the
- questions?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I did not.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Why wasn't that interview recorded?
- The interview wasn't recorded because the FBI
- does not record noncustodial, voluntary interviews.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Why wasn't that interview conducted before
- 39
- a grand jury?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't recall exactly.
- of strategic reasons.
- I think for a number
- You'll know, as an experienced person,
- that the grand jury is often a limiting way to conduct a
- wide-ranging interview, but I don't remember for sure.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- recollection.
- Let me see if I can refresh your
- I think you had a conversation with Inspector
- General Horowitz about that.
- On page 141 of the inspector
- general's report -Mr. Kelley.
- Can we have a copy of that so we can follow
- along?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Does someone have an extra copy?
- Page 141, the top of the page.
- See where it says:
- "Comey
- told us"?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, sir.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So I'm reading for the record:
- Comey told
- us that he did not remember discussing with anyone the
- possibility of subpoenaing Clinton before the grand jury.
- However, he stated:
- At that point, I really didn't think there
- was a there there.
- And the question was, is she going to lie
- to us?
- Did I read that correctly?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, you read it correctly.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Does that refresh your recollection?
- It really doesn't.
- I'm sure I said this
- 40
- because it's a transcript from the IG interview, but I don't -- I
- honestly don't remember saying that.
- It seems reasonable,
- though.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Well, as you read that, if it's
- accurately -- if you're accurately quoted, it sounds like you
- had your mind made up about whether or not Hillary Clinton was
- going to be prosecuted for the mishandling of classified
- information before her interview.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think that's exactly right.
- My
- judgment going into the interview was that we had not found
- sufficient evidence to recommend prosecution for any substantive
- offenses related to the mishandling of classified information.
- Still a possibility that she would lie to us and give us an opening
- to prosecute her or that there would be further investigation.
- But going into it, based on almost a year of investigation, I
- didn't see a substantive case there.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- that you and I had?
- Do you recall, Director Comey, an exchange
- You appeared before the House Judiciary
- Committee on September 28th of 2016, and I asked you a question.
- I said:
- Did you make the decision not to prosecute or not to
- charge Hillary Clinton for the mishandling of classified
- information before or after her July 2nd, 2016, interview?
- your answer was:
- After.
- Do you recall that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yep.
- And
- 41
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- When I asked you how that could possibly
- be the case, your response was:
- If colleagues of ours think I'm
- lying, please have them contact me privately.
- Now, I will tell you, Director, when I asked you that
- question and you gave me that answer, there were a number of
- things that I was not aware of.
- One of the things that I didn't
- know was that the day before the interview, the Hillary Clinton
- interview on July 1st, Lisa Page texted Peter Strzok about
- Loretta Lynch and her decision to follow your recommendation,
- and said, quote:
- Yeah, it's a real profile in courage, since
- she -- meaning Lynch -- knows no charges will be brought.
- Do you recall reading that text anywhere, or hearing about
- it?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember I read it.
- I think I've heard
- about it in the media.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- It's also in the inspector general report.
- Did you read the inspector general report?
- Mr. Comey.
- I did, so I must have seen it there.
- Yes, I
- read it, so I must have seen it there.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Well, the text doesn't -- doesn't say that
- Hillary Clinton might not be charged or that charges probably
- won't be brought.
- It says that the Attorney General knows that
- charges won't be brought.
- Do you have any explanation for why Lisa Page, Peter Strzok,
- and Attorney General Loretta Lynch might have known that Hillary
- 42
- Clinton wasn't going to be charged before her July 2nd, 2016,
- interview if you hadn't made the decision yet?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- I don't know what she means in there
- or what the nature of the communication was.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Could it be based on one of the other things
- that I didn't know when you and I had that exchange, and that
- was the fact that I didn't know that 2 months before that July
- 2nd interview, on May the 2nd, you had actually circulated a draft
- memo of a public announcement stating that neither you nor any
- reasonable prosecutor would charge Hillary Clinton with the
- mishandling of classified information.
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm sorry.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you recall that?
- Recall what, Mr. Ratcliffe?
- Recall that memo?
- Sure.
- I recall a variety of drafts in May of
- that memo.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Would you agree with me that that draft of
- that memo certainly would be or its contents would appear to be
- inconsistent with the testimony that I just related that you and
- I had in September of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I don't agree.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Who's Jim Rybicki?
- Jim Rybicki was my chief of staff.
- As -- I'm
- sorry.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- One of the things that I didn't know when
- you and I had that exchange was how Mr. Rybicki was going to
- 43
- testify.
- And he has testified that the only charges that could
- have come out of her interview would have been false statements
- to an FBI agent, not any violations of the Espionage Act.
- Would you agree with Mr. Rybicki's testimony?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I would not.
- I'm not familiar with it, but
- assuming it's what you just summarized, I would not.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Well, I think I've related to you that at
- least a number of folks -- Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, Loretta
- Lynch, Jim Rybicki -- all seem to have the idea that Hillary
- Clinton wasn't going to be charged for the mishandling of
- classified information -- she might be charged for lying to the
- FBI -- but that she wasn't going to be charged for the mishandling
- of classified information.
- Do you still think that the answer that you gave me on
- September 28 of 2016 was an accurate statement?
- Mr. Comey.
- I do.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you think that that statement was at all
- misleading to me or other Members of Congress?
- Mr. Comey.
- I guess I can't speak to your mental state.
- It
- wasn't intended to be misleading.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- it by saying:
- You didn't answer my question when I asked
- Well, I had pretty much made the decision that
- she wasn't going to be charged because everyone knew I had
- circulated a draft memo.
- You didn't say to me what you said to the inspector general,
- 44
- that you really didn't think there was no there there.
- You just
- said no.
- Do you think that's a candid statement?
- Mr. Comey.
- I do.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I do.
- So your testimony then is the same as it
- is today, that when you went into the Hillary Clinton -- or when
- the FBI and the Department of Justice went in to interview Hillary
- Clinton, a decision had not been made about whether or not to
- prosecute her for anything and all charges were still on the table
- at that point?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- The final decision of what our
- recommendation would be had not been made.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- The final decision.
- Well, sure.
- You'd be incompetent if you didn't
- have a view of the case after a year.
- And, as I said, as I said
- to the inspector general, it didn't look to me like there was
- a substantive case there.
- But you're about to interview the
- subject, and so you want to keep your mind open to the possibility
- that you will develop something that needs to be pursued.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Well, that's a great explanation.
- Why
- didn't you give me that explanation in September of 2016 when
- I asked you that question?
- Mr. Comey.
- It's an explanation, Mr. Ratcliffe, that's
- entirely consistent with the answer I gave you.
- you asking me to explain why I say that.
- I don't remember
- If you did, I'm sorry
- 45
- if I didn't answer that question, but they're consistent.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So it was a serious interview with Hillary
- Clinton that was about to take place intended at getting at the
- truth of everything that was troubling you?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's not how I thought about it.
- It was about
- interviewing the subject near the close of a year-long
- investigation.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- So, when the team of FBI agents and
- lawyers interviewed Hillary Clinton, what questions did they ask
- Secretary Clinton about the tarmac meeting?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Would that be reflected in the 302 or in
- the FBI summary of the interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- I would expect so.
- You're asking about whether
- they asked Hillary Clinton about the meeting that Bill Clinton
- had with Loretta Lynch.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- I don't know whether they asked that.
- I would
- expect if it was asked, it would likely be reflected in the 302.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Not unless you really want me to.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- about them.
- Would you like to review those?
- Well, I've read them, and I've asked folks
- There's no mention of the word "tarmac" or "Loretta
- Lynch" anywhere that appears in the 302 or the summary that the
- FBI has made publicly available.
- 46
- So my question is, do you know whether or not any questions
- were asked about that tarmac meeting?
- Mr. Comey.
- It's the same answer; I don't know.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So 5 days after the Attorney General meets
- with the spouse of a subject on a tarmac, the meeting that a lot
- of folks are talking about and that raised concerns enough to
- be one of the reasons that caused you to take the actions that
- you took in holding the press conference, none of those folks
- in the room thought about asking Hillary Clinton any questions
- about that?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know what they thought.
- And, as I said
- earlier, I don't know whether she was asked about that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Would that have been a reasonable question
- to Secretary Clinton, what did your husband discuss about this
- case, if anything, 5 days ago with the Attorney General?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know the answer to that.
- As it relates
- to her mishandling of classified information as Secretary of
- State, I don't know.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Well, I thought you were looking for any
- crimes, not just the mishandling of information.
- Mr. Comey.
- The FBI doesn't investigate people to find any
- crimes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I didn't say investigate people, but in the
- course of investigating if you become aware of things that cause
- concern to investigators, like you've expressed you had, isn't
- 47
- there an obligation to pursue that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Hard to answer in the abstract.
- what the facts were that you had.
- Depends upon
- But sure, if you develop facts
- in the course of an investigation of the possible commission of
- another crime, in almost all circumstances, you follow up on it.
- I don't know what that would drive, in terms of the interview
- of Hillary Clinton.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So do you know what questions the agents
- or prosecutors asked Hillary Clinton about that troubling
- information that we talked before about potential compromise of
- Attorney General Lynch with respect to her objectivity?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know whether they asked any questions
- that related to Loretta Lynch of Hillary Clinton.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- If they did, it should be reflected in the
- 302 or the FBI summary of the interview, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- You would expect that in the ordinary course.
- The only reason I'm hesitating is that I don't know whether
- questions were asked about that, but if questions are asked and
- the answer may implicate -- may be considered classified,
- sometimes that's not put in the 302.
- But I don't know whether
- that's the case here.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Weren't those questions that you wanted
- answered?
- Mr. Comey.
- Of Hillary Clinton?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Of anyone that could answer a question
- 48
- about whether or not there was any problem with the objectivity
- of the Attorney General, based on contacts with the Clinton
- campaign.
- Mr. Comey.
- I did not see anything that led me to conclude
- that Loretta Lynch was acting inappropriately in supervising the
- Department of Justice in that investigation.
- The appearance of
- conflict or the appearance that she was compromised in some
- fashion was what drove me to separate myself from her in July.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So, as you've already mentioned, one of the
- things you thought might happen or you wanted to find out was
- whether or not Hillary Clinton might lie during that interview.
- Knowingly making a false statement to the FBI is a crime, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- That is correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Making a false public statement ordinarily
- is not a crime, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- That is correct.
- Thank goodness, for a lot of
- people.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- But false statements made in public can be
- evidence of knowledge or intent, absence of mistake, or provide
- all kinds of other evidentiary context, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- Potentially, yes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't
- David Petraeus' comments, false comments in public a basis for
- why you argued that he had knowledge or intent to commit the crime
- of mishandling classified information?
- 49
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember that about the Petraeus case,
- that public statements figured in it.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- You don't recall, or it didn't happen?
- Well, I don't remember it being a feature, so
- it's possible I'm just not remembering or that it didn't happen.
- It just -- as I think about that case, I don't remember anything
- about public statements as a factor in that case.
- I remember
- a lot about lying to the agents during an interview, but not
- public statements.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- All right.
- Clinton's public statements.
- So let me ask you about Hillary
- Do you recall Secretary Clinton
- publicly stating that she neither sent nor received classified
- information?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't specifically in her public statements,
- so I don't specifically.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- If there were those public statements,
- would you have expected the agents to ask her about that during
- her interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- I would expect them to ask about
- what she was thinking when she communicated in the way she did,
- but whether to ask her, "Did you say on the campaign trail X or
- Y," I don't know.
- That would be up to their judgment.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall Secretary Clinton making that
- same statement under oath before Congress?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- 50
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- recollection.
- Do you recall -- maybe I can refresh your
- I think, on October 22nd of 2015, in response to
- a question from Congressman Jordan, Secretary Clinton said,
- quote, "There was nothing marked classified in my emails either
- sent or received," end quote.
- Does that refresh your recollection about Secretary Clinton
- making that statement?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- it doesn't help me with her
- testimony, but I actually do remember being asked, maybe by
- Mr. Jordan, when I testified about whether that was accurate or
- not.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Is it accurate?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is there were -- I hope I don't
- get this wrong.
- In some email, there was a letter C deep in the
- email to mark some of the paragraphs that looked to us like
- portion markings, as I recall.
- And I'm sorry if I'm misrecalling
- that, but I have the recollection of that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- 5th.
- Well, I have your public statement on July
- I think you mentioned the fact that there were actually
- three emails that were marked classified.
- Mr. Comey.
- When I talked on July the 5th?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Kelley.
- Yes.
- Any reason to --
- Do you have a copy of that statement we can
- 51
- take a look at?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I do.
- Do you have -- as you review that, do you independently have
- a recollection about Hillary Clinton's July 2nd interview where
- agents asked her questions about those classification markings,
- whether it appeared on one document or multiple documents?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- You don't have any recollection?
- No, I don't have an independent recollection,
- sitting here, of what they asked her about that.
- I have some
- recollection that the topic came up, but I don't remember what
- was asked or said about that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- What do you recall about -- you mentioned
- the letter C coming up during that interview and what that might
- mean?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- I'm sorry.
- look at the statement?
- Do you want me to still
- So far, I haven't found the thing about
- the C, so I'll pause there for a second.
- I don't remember what came up in her interview about that.
- What I was referring to earlier is I remember some member I think
- of the Judiciary Committee asking me about that portion marking
- that appeared -- I was thinking in one email, but it sounds like
- you think there's more than one.
- I don't see anything, sir, in my statement -- I could be
- missing it -- about the portion marking.
- 52
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I will resume with that when we resume our
- questioning.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- I think, in the interest of
- expediency, we'll proceed with the Democrats right now, and then
- we'll take a 30-minute lunch break after the Democrats.
- 53
- [11:32 a.m.]
- Ms. Chen.
- Okay.
- The time is 11:32, and we're back on the
- record for the Democrat's first round.
- Mr. Cohen, if you would like to ask a few questions.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Are we ready?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, sir.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Thank you.
- I'm Steve Cohen from Tennessee.
- First thing I'd like to ask you, Mr. Comey, is, Mr. Trump
- asked you once to lay off the Flynn investigation, and I was just
- wondering what your reaction was to his having pled guilty and
- him having, according to Mr. Mueller, provided much truthful
- information that is apparently going to be a part of the
- investigation that Mr. Mueller is pursuing.
- What was your reaction?
- Did you feel kind of good that you
- didn't tell Mr. Trump that you would be loyal and drop that
- investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- How did it make you feel?
- Well, there was no chance at all that I was going
- to abide that direction to let that go.
- When I saw the public
- accounts of his plea and cooperation, I felt, as a citizen, glad
- that he was held accountable for his crimes and that he was
- assisting the United States.
- So it seemed to me like a just
- outcome.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Did Mr. Trump or anybody else in the
- administration ever ask you anything about specifics about the
- Russia involvement in the 2016 election?
- 54
- Ms. Bessee.
- Congressman, to the extent it goes into the
- purview of the special counsel, the witness will not be able to
- answer that question.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Let me ask you this, Mr. Comey:
- There was a
- memo that some had said had something to do -- and you maybe even
- said -- had something to do with your going forth on July 5 to
- announce that you and not the Attorney General was going to not
- investigate and go further with the Clinton email investigation,
- and that that memo was something that the FBI had in their
- possession for some time concerning, allegedly, Attorney General
- Lynch communicating to Ms. Renteria that this was going to be
- kind of not going to be pursued and not to worry about it.
- And
- then later, I think, many think that that was really a Russian
- operative that got somehow some information that wasn't true and
- got it into the Justice Department.
- Do you know what I'm talking about?
- Mr. Comey.
- I know generally, and I have to tread carefully
- here, because I think the underlying material is still
- classified.
- So there was material -- this is what I've said
- publicly, and so I'll say it again, there was material that was
- classified that if unclassified, released, would open the
- Attorney General up to the accusation -- whether it was true or
- not -- the accusation that she had not been acting fairly and
- impartially in overseeing the investigation.
- So far as I knew at the time, and still think, the material
- 55
- itself was genuine, which is a separate question, though, from
- whether it was what it said was accurate.
- Mr. Cohen.
- When you say it was genuine, I mean, did you
- not think that at this point that it was conjured up by the
- Russians to try to maybe influence actions at the Justice
- Department or at the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- We didn't think that at the time.
- I don't know
- whether that view has changed.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Okay.
- Was Peter Strzok considered the top
- counterintelligence FBI agent?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know whether Peter Strzok was
- considered the top.
- He was very highly regarded as a
- counterintelligence professional, and I saw that borne out in
- the nature and quality of his work with me.
- But whether he's
- the top or not, I don't know, but certainly among the best.
- Mr. Cohen.
- In the past, had his work not resulted in the
- outing of some Russian spies and their being returned to Russian,
- expelled from this country?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember specifically.
- I just
- remember his reputation was very, very strong in the
- counterintelligence world.
- Mr. Cohen.
- So it would make sense that he would be assigned
- to this investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- It would make sense that he'd be assigned to
- the investigation into the potential mishandling of classified
- 56
- information by Secretary Clinton.
- It would also make sense he'd
- be assigned to the Russia investigations.
- Mr. Cohen.
- And what was Ms. Page's reputation as an
- attorney and as a public servant?
- Mr. Comey.
- Ms. Page was less well-known.
- She was a more
- junior attorney assigned to the deputy attorney -- excuse me,
- the deputy director, so I knew less about her.
- In my
- interactions with her, what I liked about her is she would be
- candid and blunt and often disruptive in a meeting, which I kind
- of liked.
- The FBI can be very hierarchal.
- She would tend to
- speak up even when, in a normal FBI meeting, it wasn't her turn,
- and I found that very helpful.
- Mr. Cohen.
- The attacks that Mr. Trump has made on the FBI
- and the Justice Department, and particularly Mr. Strzok and Ms.
- Page and you and others, can you tell us how that's affected the
- morale of the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- It's hard for me to give you a high-confidence
- answer because I'm not there any longer, so I'll give you my
- sense, which I think is right but I don't have high confidence
- in it, is that it has hurt morale in some senses, and in other
- senses, has redoubled the commitment of the people of the FBI
- to its mission and its apolitical nature.
- So I think it's
- actually a tale of two cities in that way.
- Mr. Cohen.
- When you were at the FBI, did you have any reason
- to investigate the people who propagated stories that Seth Rich
- 57
- was murdered by folks within the DNC or other democratic
- operatives or any of the people that talked about this pizza
- operation, the pizzagate thing?
- Did you ever investigate the
- people that started those conspiratorial stories?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember.
- investigations on those topics.
- I don't remember
- I remember at one point
- receiving an email from someone, a private citizen, to my
- personal account, raising issues about the -- is it Ping Pong?
- Whatever the pizza place was that was involved in some conspiracy
- theories.
- I remember sending it to my staff saying, make sure
- this gets to the appropriate place, but I don't know whether there
- were investigations.
- Mr. Cohen.
- If Mr. Mueller were fired, how would that
- affect further investigations of crime that are ongoing now?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know at this point.
- I don't know.
- And
- as an informed outsider, I think that it would -- you'd almost
- have to fire everyone in the FBI and the Justice Department to
- derail the relevant investigations, but I don't know exactly what
- the effect would be.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Mr. Trump has said that the folks that work for
- him are 12 angry Democrats.
- Do you know those 12 or so people --
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Cohen.
- -- who they are?
- Mr. Comey.
- I know by name some of them, and I think I've
- met some of them personally, but I don't know them well.
- 58
- Mr. Cohen.
- Do you know if any of them are angry?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not to my knowledge, but I'm sure they're like
- all normal humans; sometimes they're happy, sometimes they're
- sad, sometimes they're angry, but I can't comment on that
- characterization beyond that.
- Mr. Cohen.
- All right.
- Despite the emails between
- Mr. Strzok and Ms. Page, was there anything you ever saw that
- you believe caused the FBI or the Justice Department,
- particularly the FBI, to not operate and investigate in an
- unbiased fashion?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I never saw -- and in those two people's
- cases -- I never saw any indication at all of bias by Mr. Strzok
- or Ms. Page.
- And, in fact, Peter Strzok helped draft my letter
- to Congress on October 28th that Hillary Clinton blames for her
- defeat.
- So it's hard for me to see how he was on Team Clinton
- secretly at that point in time.
- And he also was one of the
- handful of people in the entire world who knew we were
- investigating four Americans who had some connection to
- Mr. Trump during the summer of 2016, and he didn't tell a soul.
- So it's hard to reconcile that with his being on Team Clinton.
- And so all of that is consistent with my view, I never saw
- any indication of anything but the facts and the law from those
- people.
- Mr. Cohen.
- Thank you for your testimony.
- for your service to our country.
- And thank you
- 59
- I yield.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Thank you.
- Mr. Comey, I've been troubled by escalating attacks against
- the Department of Justice, the Special Counsel's Office, and the
- FBI, attacks against the independence of the institutions, the
- integrity of their employees, and the legitimacy of the
- Department of Justice and FBI investigations.
- As I'm sure you're aware, President Trump and his allies
- have repeatedly described Special Counsel Mueller and his
- investigation as illegitimate and politically biased.
- On November 27th, President Trump tweeted in reference to
- the special counsel, quote:
- The fake news media builds Bob
- Mueller up as a saint, when in actuality, he's the exact opposite.
- He is doing tremendous damage to our criminal justice system
- where he's only looking at one side and not the other.
- Heroes
- will come of this and it won't be Mueller and his terrible gang
- of angry Democrats.
- from.
- Look at their past and look where they come
- And now a $30 million witch hunt continues and they have
- got nothing but ruined lives.
- Where is the server?
- Let these
- terrible people go back to the Clinton Foundation and Justice
- Department, close quote.
- On December 3rd, President Trump tweeted, quote:
- Bob
- Mueller, who is a much different man than people think, and his
- out-of-control band of angry Democrats don't want the truth, they
- only want lies.
- The truth is very bad for their mission, close
- 60
- quote.
- I'll note that Robert Mueller is well-known to be a lifelong
- Republican.
- Now, generally speaking, does being identified as a
- Democrat mean a prosecutor would be too conflicted to conduct
- a fair investigation of a Republican or vice versa?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- No, it does not.
- Are you aware of any, quote, "conflicted"
- people on the special counsel's team?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I am not.
- Do you agree with the characterization that
- the special counsel's investigation is a witch hunt?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I do not.
- What is your general impression of the
- individuals on the special counsel's team?
- Mr. Comey.
- I know them by reputation, and it's an all-star
- team of people whose names I've known for years as great Federal
- prosecutors.
- Others are unknown to me.
- But I know the
- reputation and substance of the person leading them, the best.
- Although we're not friends, I admire Bob Mueller.
- He is more
- than people realize.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Do you agree with the characterization that
- the special counsel's team is out of control and are not seeking
- the truth?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't have any reason to believe that's true.
- 61
- Mr. Nadler.
- And how confident are you that the members of
- the special counsel team are conducting the investigation based
- solely on the facts and the law and not on their political
- affiliation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I've seen no indication.
- it through is the public media.
- in the media.
- Again, all I follow
- I've seen no indication of that
- And, again, I also know the person who leads them
- and the kind of culture he creates, and it's one of integrity.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Why do you think the President publicly
- attacks Robert Mueller and his investigators as frequently as
- he does?
- Is it to undermine public confidence in their findings
- or some other reason?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I don't know.
- Do you agree with the President's
- characterization that Robert Mueller is damaging the criminal
- justice system?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I do not.
- How would you characterize the special counsel
- investigation and its importance, not only to our national
- security, but as a means of restoring public confidence in our
- elections and law enforcement agencies?
- Mr. Comey.
- Watching it from the outside, my judgment as
- an experienced prosecutor and investigator is it's been
- conducted with extraordinary speed, with extraordinary
- professionalism, and zero disclosure outside of public court
- 62
- filings.
- It represents the way our criminal justice system is
- supposed to work in investigating, and I believe it's incredibly
- important to the rule of law in this country that the work be
- allowed to finish.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Now, you may have answered this already, but
- one specific assertion is that you and Special Counsel Mueller
- are, quote, "best friends."
- On September 5th, President Trump brought up Special
- Counsel Mueller in an interview with The Daily Caller stating,
- quote:
- And he's Comey's best friend, and I could give you a
- hundred pictures of him and Comey hugging and kissing each other.
- You know he's Comey's best friend, close quote.
- Are you best friends with Robert Mueller?
- Mr. Comey.
- I am not.
- I admire the heck out of the man,
- but I don't know his phone number, I've never been to his house,
- I don't know his children's names.
- alone with him in a restaurant.
- I think I had a meal once
- I like him.
- I am not a -- I'm
- an associate of his who admires him greatly.
- We're not friends
- in any social sense.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Thank you.
- I will not ask whether you've ever
- hugged and kissed him.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- A relief to my wife.
- On page 88 of your book, A Higher Loyalty:
- Truth, Lies in Leadership, you recount a hospital scene during
- the Bush administration with then-FBI Director Robert Mueller.
- 63
- In the first full paragraph you wrote, quote:
- Mueller and
- I were not particularly close and had never seen each other
- outside of work, but I knew Bob understood and respected our legal
- position and cared deeply about the rule of law.
- His whole life
- was about doing things the right way, close quote.
- How do you know Robert Mueller cares deeply about the rule
- of law and doing things the right way?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, from watching him work.
- I was his
- supervisor when I was deputy attorney general and he was the FBI
- director.
- But most importantly, through that incident,
- watching him be prepared to resign, to end his career, because
- he thought the Bush administration was doing things inconsistent
- with the law, and he wasn't going to be any part of it, wasn't
- going to have it.
- And that strength bolstered me during that
- difficult period but was just typical of the way he approached
- things.
- Mr. Nadler.
- administration.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- And he was at that point part of the Bush
- Is that correct?
- Correct.
- He was the FBI director.
- And how confident are you that he will do
- things the right way with respect to the special counsel
- investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- on.
- There are not many things I would bet my life
- I would bet my life that Bob Mueller will do things the right
- way, the way we would all want, whether we're Republicans or
- 64
- Democrats, the way Americans should want.
- Mr. Nadler.
- And is it fair to say that there are no facts
- that you know of to support the notion that Special Counsel
- Mueller is politically motivated or biased?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know of any.
- I'm smiling at this moment
- because I can't imagine any, given the nature of that person and
- his life.
- Mr. Nadler.
- And it's still accurate that you're not
- particularly close to Robert Mueller?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- It is accurate.
- On October 17th, the FBI responded to a
- Freedom of Information Act request for, quote, "photographs of
- former FBI Director James Comey and Robert Mueller hugging and
- kissing each other," by saying "no responsive records were
- located."
- I assume you're not aware of any such photographs?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm not aware of any such photograph.
- never hugged or kissed the man.
- I have
- Again, I'm an admirer but not
- that kind of admirer.
- Mr. Nadler.
- The FBI and the Department of Justice have been
- more broadly accused of conducting investigations driven by
- political bias instead of just by the facts and the rule of law.
- During your tenure at the FBI and the Department of Justice,
- were you aware of any FBI investigation motivated by political
- bias?
- 65
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- None.
- Never.
- Were you aware of any Justice Department
- investigations that were motivated by political bias?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Never.
- None.
- On May 22nd, Republican Members of Congress
- introduced House Resolution 907 requesting that the Attorney
- General appoint a second special counsel to investigate
- misconduct at the Department of Justice and the FBI.
- That resolution alleged, quote, "Whereas, there is an
- urgent need for the appointment of a second special counsel in
- light of evidence that raises critical concerns about decisions,
- activities, and inherent bias displayed at the highest levels
- of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of
- Investigation regarding FISA abuse, how and why the Hillary
- Clinton email probe ended, and how and why the Donald
- Trump-Russia probe began," close quote.
- Is there any evidence of inherent bias displayed at the
- highest levels of the DOJ and the FBI regarding how and why the
- Hillary Clinton email probe ended?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Not that I'm aware of.
- Are you aware of any evidence of inherent bias
- displayed at the highest levels of the DOJ and the FBI against
- Donald Trump as part of the Trump-Russia investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I am not.
- Are you aware of any actions ever taken to
- 66
- damage the Trump campaign at the highest levels of the Department
- of Justice or the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I am not.
- Are you aware of any actions ever taken to
- personally target Donald Trump at the highest levels of the
- Department of Justice or the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I am not.
- And you have previously noted, I believe, that
- if Agent Strzok, who had expressed his personal political
- opinions negatively about then-candidate Trump, had wanted to
- misuse his office to damage the Trump campaign, he could easily
- have done so by leaking information about the fact that there
- was an ongoing investigation.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Is that not correct?
- Certainly, yes.
- And he could have done that, but he did not
- do that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- He did not.
- That would be evidence that he was not doing
- anything to bring his political opinions into making judgments
- at the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- Certainly inconsistent with the conspiracy
- theory that he was trying to hurt Donald Trump.
- If you're going
- to have a conspiracy theory, you've got to explain all the facts.
- And it's hard to reconcile his not leaking that Trump associates
- were under investigation and his drafting of a letter to Congress
- 67
- on October 28th that Secretary Clinton believed hurt her chances
- of being elected.
- Mr. Nadler.
- At a campaign rally in August, President Trump
- said, quote, "Our Justice Department and our FBI have to start
- doing their jobs and doing it right and doing it now because
- people are angry.
- People are angry," close quote.
- In another rally in September, the President said, quote,
- "Look what's being exposed at the Department of Justice and the
- FBI.
- You have some real bad ones.
- the FBI.
- They're all gone.
- You see what's happening at
- They're all gone.
- But there's a
- lingering stench and we're going to get rid of that too," close
- quote.
- Do you agree with the President's characterization that the
- Department of Justice and the FBI are not doing their jobs?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I do not.
- Do you believe there are some "real bad ones"
- at the FBI or DOJ?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I do not.
- Are you at all concerned that the President
- of the United States is trying to smear and undermine the
- credibility of his investigators at the Justice Department?
- Mr. Comey.
- Deeply concerned.
- I think the part of that
- that's right is that people are angry.
- Some people are angry
- because they've been lied to for so long about the nature and
- quality of the FBI and the Department of Justice.
- 68
- Mr. Nadler.
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm sorry.
- Lied to --
- Lied to by the President and his supporters
- about the nature and quality of the Department of Justice and
- the FBI.
- It's shortsighted, and anybody who knows those
- organizations, knows it's not true.
- Mr. Nadler.
- And what implications might there be under the
- Justice Department and the rule of law?
- Mr. Comey.
- Those kind of lies hurt the ability of the FBI
- to be believed at a doorway or in a courtroom.
- of us less safe.
- That makes all
- These are honest institutions made up of normal
- flawed human beings, but people committed to doing things the
- right way.
- When they're lied about constantly, it hurts the
- faith and confidence of the American people in them, and that
- is bad for all of us.
- I don't care what your political stripe
- is.
- Mr. Nadler.
- And how does that impact our national
- security?
- Mr. Comey.
- Our national security turns upon the ability
- of an FBI agent to convince the girlfriend of a jihadi that we
- will protect her if she cooperates with us.
- If we're seen as
- a political group of one kind or another, an untrustworthy group,
- that trust is eroded and the agent loses the ability to make that
- case.
- If a jury doesn't believe an FBI agent when he or she says,
- I found this or I heard this in the course of this case, we're
- less safe because the case can't be made.
- 69
- Mr. Nadler.
- Okay.
- And these are direct consequences of
- statements made, such as I've quoted, by the President and by
- other people who go along with him?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Nadler.
- I believe they are.
- And what impact do you believe that actions
- of this Congress' resolutions, such as H.R. 907 that I quoted
- a few minutes ago, and investigations, frankly, such as this one,
- have on the ability of the Justice Department to conduct fair
- and thorough investigations and prosecutions?
- Mr. Comey.
- To the extent it echoes the lies and the smears
- from the President, it simply increases the chances that the
- Department of Justice and the FBI's credibility will be
- undermined.
- I'm a big fan of oversight and truth-seeking, but when
- people veer from truth-seeking into trying to find any excuse
- to bad-mouth an organization that's investigating the President,
- we've lost our way.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Would you be surprised to know that criminal
- defendants are using attacks similar to those levied by the
- President and Republicans?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- [Comey Exhibit No. 1
- Was marked for identification.]
- Mr. Nadler.
- And I want to introduce an exhibit.
- article from the Huffington Post.
- It's an
- The headline, Trump's FBI
- 70
- Attacks Are Helping Accused Terrorists Defend Themselves in
- Court.
- This article details the defense of three alleged domestic
- terrorists in Kansas.
- They are anti-Muslim militia members
- accused of planning to bomb an apartment complex with
- predominantly Somali immigrant residents.
- Defense counsel argued the men were targeted by, quote, "a
- biased FBI conspired against them in the lead up to the 2016
- election due to their political beliefs," close quote.
- What is your reaction to that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, again, I don't know the particular case,
- but taking the news article at face value, it's an example of
- the kind of thing that I worry about.
- When corrosive attacks
- are directed at our institutions of justice, we will all pay a
- price for that.
- Mr. Nadler.
- And, therefore, you'd believe that the current
- political rhetoric endorsed by the President and his allies, such
- as I've quoted, is potentially damaging to law enforcement's
- ability to keep Americans safe?
- Mr. Comey.
- I do.
- I'm not against criticizing law
- enforcement organizations or law enforcement leaders.
- been criticized, I think, reasonably.
- I've
- But when you attack the
- fiber of the institution and say it's corrupt and untrustworthy
- and aiming at political enemies, you do lasting damage to an
- institution this country relies upon, and everybody should
- 71
- realize that's a mistake.
- Mr. Nadler.
- Thank you.
- I have no further questions.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Good morning, moving into good afternoon.
- Thank you for your presence here.
- I want to put on the record that Democrats never received
- a copy of the agreement.
- So I hope that, in short order, the
- majority will provide us with the agreement regarding the
- quashing of the subpoena.
- Mr. Kelley.
- I will be more than happy to, and its merely
- an email correspondence.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- writing.
- I appreciate getting something in
- Thank you so very much.
- Let me thank you, Mr. Comey, for your service to the Nation.
- I share your view that the American people would have been better
- served if the lame duck House Republican majority of this
- committee had scheduled a public hearing instead of a private
- interview behind closed doors to discuss matters that are vital
- to the health of our democracy.
- I fully expect that to be a standard practice for this
- committee in the 116th Congress under a new Democratic majority.
- So I have several questions, which I'd like to lay the predicate
- for.
- Dealing with the FBI investigation of Secretary Clinton's
- emails, the investigation was an outgrowth of the House
- 72
- Republican Benghazi investigation.
- A sad investigation, which
- we now know, because it was confirmed by House Majority Leader
- McCarthy that it was for one purpose.
- It had at its principal
- aim was to undermine and damage the public image and standing
- of Secretary Hillary Clinton, whom House Republicans feared
- would be the 2016 Democratic Presidential nominee.
- You'll recall that House Republicans relentlessly
- questioned, second-guessed, and attacked her integrity and that
- of career FBI agents when you announced at your famous July 5th,
- 2016, press conference that the FBI concluded that there was no
- evidence to support a finding Secretary Clinton had violated the
- law.
- House Republicans bitterly criticized you and questioned
- the integrity and legitimacy of the investigation.
- For your part, you were confident enough in the
- determination reached by the FBI that you've stated under oath
- the case itself was not a cliffhanger and that no reasonable
- prosecutor would ever bring such a case on these facts.
- Republicans disagreed with you extensively.
- House
- They wanted you to
- prosecute Secretary Clinton regardless of the facts.
- And from July 2016 through October 2016, House Republicans
- engaged in an almost daily ritual of holding hearings,
- desperately trying to tear down your investigation and your
- recommendation.
- They did not stop attacking you until
- October 28th, the day you sent your letter to the congressional
- leaders announcing that, in an unrelated investigation, the FBI
- 73
- had learned of the existence of emails that appeared to be
- pertinent to an investigation of Secretary Clinton's email
- server.
- House Republicans promptly leaked your update, according
- to the media, characterizing your action as a decision by the
- FBI to reopen its investigation, even though the FBI had not at
- that time reviewed any of the emails in question and
- notwithstanding the fact that you advised them the FBI was not
- then in a position to assess whether or not this material may
- be significant.
- For the next 8 days, a period in which millions of Americans
- were casting their ballots during early voting, the baseless
- claims of House Republicans were repeated ad nauseam by them and
- candidate, Mr. Trump, dominating media coverage in the final
- days, and did not stop even after your announcement 2 days before
- the election on November 5th, 2016.
- That upon further review,
- that the FBI had again found no basis to believe that Secretary
- Clinton had committed a crime.
- Given this chronology and the benefit of hindsight, do you
- regret not following the Justice Department's policy and
- practice of refraining from taking investigatory or prosecutory
- actions that could affect the outcome of an election to be held
- within the ensuing 60 days of an election?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- I regret being involved at all, but
- even in hindsight, I think that that was the decision I had to
- 74
- take.
- And I don't want to quibble, but there's no policy around
- taking action in a runup to an election, but there's a really
- important norm that I believe in.
- If you can avoid it, you take
- no action in the runup to an election.
- It might have an impact
- on the election, I believe in that, even today.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Well, I can't put words in your mouth,
- but you were, in essence, engaged or interfering or participating
- in an election of the known and documented leaders of the free
- world.
- I would consider the elections of the President of the
- United States in a world context as one of the most significant
- elections that we would ever have in the world.
- Again, would you not consider that maybe in that context
- that the timing was very difficult?
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, excruciating.
- Causes me great pain even
- to sit here and talk about it today, but the two alternatives
- I saw, I chose the least bad.
- was worse.
- I still think the other alternative
- And as between bad and worse, I had to choose bad.
- I wish we weren't involved, but given that we were involved, we
- tried to make the right decision for the right reasons.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- You sent a letter dated October 28th,
- 2016, to indicate that there was a reopening of the
- investigation.
- I count the numbers of addressees as 16.
- Why would you need to send -- did you send this classified?
- Did you send this with an indication that this was not to be
- 75
- exposed to the media?
- Did you make the point or have your
- liaisons make the point to the Members of Congress that this
- should not have been exposed?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- It wasn't classified.
- It was a private communication to the eight chairs and rankings
- of the committees that had received information from the FBI.
- And the Congressional Affairs staff of the FBI thought those were
- the people it ought to go to.
- It was not, as you said earlier,
- we didn't release anything to the public, but it wasn't
- classified.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- But I think you can -- would you pretty
- well agree that 16 addressees is almost inevitably going to be
- released?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Do you think that the FBI could have been
- more cautious, whether you did government affairs, 8 days out
- or how many days out before the election?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know, is the honest answer.
- The staff
- that works Congressional Affairs thought we had to inform these
- eight committee chairs and rankings.
- And so I think about it
- the way you do, that raised the serious prospect it would be
- released to the public, and -- but that was a risk we thought
- we had to run.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Why did not Attorney General Lynch or
- Deputy Attorney General Yates not make the announcements of
- 76
- July 5th, October 28th, or November -- 2016?
- Were they consulted?
- Mr. Comey.
- Did they concur in your judgment?
- Separate incidents.
- July 5th, I informed them
- that I was going to make an announcement, and so they weren't
- consulted on the substance of the announcement.
- The October 28th letter, I informed them the day before that
- I thought I had to inform Congress but would be happy to discuss
- it with them.
- And they said they didn't wish to discuss it with
- me.
- And so in the first instance, I don't think they had much
- opportunity to engage with me on it because I said I think I need
- to do this separately.
- In October, they did but chose not to
- take the chance -- take the opportunity.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Why wouldn't you yield to Deputy Attorney
- General Yates to make that announcement?
- Is that not the normal
- protocol in any structured law enforcement versus prosecutor
- from the low level -- let me not call local district attorneys
- low level -- but from the level of local government all the way
- up to the Federal Government, that the district attorney, the
- prosecutor, the attorney general, the attorney general of the
- State of whatever, makes the announcement regarding any
- prosecutorial stance?
- Mr. Comey.
- Definitely.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- And then why was that not done here?
- First of all, to agree with the first part of
- 77
- your question, yeah, the normal circumstances, the Attorney
- General would make that announcement with the FBI director -Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- Absolutely.
- -- standing next to her.
- Absolutely.
- And so
- I had never even actually heard of a circumstance where the FBI
- made an announcement separate from the -- without coordinating
- it with the Attorney General.
- I thought we had to do that if
- the American people are going to have confidence that the result
- was apolitical.
- Now, it would have been great if Loretta Lynch had recused
- herself and made Sally Yates the acting attorney general.
- I
- think what I would have done in that circumstance is hand it to
- Sally, who did not have the issues that Loretta had -- I like
- them both -- but didn't have the issues that Loretta had with
- potential appearance of bias, but Loretta announced that she
- would not recuse herself.
- She would just accept my
- recommendation and that of the career prosecutors.
- And so I felt like I didn't have the option to hand it to
- Sally because Loretta had stayed in charge.
- That makes sense.
- And so I called each of them and said, I'm going to make an
- announcement this morning.
- you.
- I'm not going to coordinate it with
- I hope when you see it, you'll understand why.
- And the goal was to make sure the American people knew, this
- wasn't the Obama administration.
- fix.
- This wasn't some political
- There was no case there because apolitical professionals
- 78
- thought so.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Let me move on.
- It is true, is it not, that Secretary Clinton's campaign
- was not the subject of a Federal counterintelligence
- investigation by our Nation's law enforcement?
- Mr. Comey.
- To my knowledge, it was not.
- You're saying the Clinton campaign?
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- To my knowledge, it was not.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- But the same is not true with respect to
- the Trump campaign, which was under investigation for colluding
- with a hostile foreign power to influence the outcome of the 2016
- election?
- Mr. Comey.
- investigation.
- The Trump campaign was not under
- The FBI, in late July, opened
- counterintelligence investigations of four Americans to see if
- they were working in any way with the Russians to influence our
- elections.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- the campaign?
- Those individuals were affiliated with
- I believe they were in some form.
- Mr. Comey.
- At least some of them were.
- The FBI and the
- Department of Justice have not confirmed the names of those folks
- publicly, which is why I'm not going into the specifics.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- However, during the discovery of that
- investigation, which was comparable to an investigation of
- 79
- another candidate, that information was not announced or
- presented to the American people or asked of the Attorney General
- to make a statement based upon the facts that the FBI had.
- announcement was made about that.
- Mr. Comey.
- That's correct.
- Is that correct?
- And it was treated the way the
- Clinton investigation had been treated.
- the beginning of it.
- No
- We said nothing during
- It wasn't until the following spring that
- we confirmed to Congress that there even was an investigation
- of any sort without naming the people.
- So the rule actually was
- consistently applied.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- But you never ever came to the American
- people during the election to indicate that there were
- investigations of principals that may have been involved in the
- Trump campaign on any matter?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's correct, because of our policies and
- approach to those investigations, all investigations.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Let me offer to say, I don't know if the
- American people could decipher between the distinction.
- What
- is left in the minds is you announced one, you didn't announce
- the other.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I agree with that --
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- When you met with the President at the
- White House on January 27th, 2017, the meeting during which he
- asked you to let Flynn go, did the President know at the time
- that the FBI was investigating Russia's interference in the 2016
- 80
- elections?
- Mr. Comey.
- The meeting you're referring to was Valentine's
- Day, February 14th of 2017, not the 27th.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- I stand corrected.
- And I don't know -Thank you.
- I don't know what the President knew at that
- point.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- What did you understand the President to
- be asking for when he requested that you let Flynn go?
- To stop
- investigating Michael Flynn's conduct or stopping investigating
- Russian interference of the 2016 election?
- Mr. Comey.
- The first.
- As I've testified, I understood him
- to be directing me -- asking, but I took it as a direction -- to
- drop an investigation of Flynn's interaction with the FBI over
- his conversations with the Russians in the transition.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- What was your impression of that request?
- That it was improper and that I was not going
- to abide by it.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Were you silent at that time or did you
- indicate that to the President?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is he said something about
- Flynn being a good guy and that he hoped I would let it go.
- And
- I answered, "I agree he's a good guy," or words to that effect,
- but I didn't agree to his request.
- I actually just commented
- on part of what he had said.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- And did you pursue responding back to him
- 81
- or was there silence after that?
- subsequent to that of his point?
- Meaning, did you engage
- Because, obviously, when the
- President of the United States speaks, and though you're in an
- independent agency, he might believe that work should begin on
- responding to his request.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know what he believed.
- I never spoke
- to him about it again.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- Did you feel a certain pressure?
- I felt that he was asking me, directing me to
- drop a criminal investigation, which I thought was improper, so
- I went back, wrote a memo about it, briefed the leadership of
- the FBI so we could figure out what to do about it.
- [Comey Exhibit No. 2
- Was marked for identification.]
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- an exhibit.
- This is my last question, and it requires
- Pages 68, 69 of the transcript from former FBI
- General Counsel James Baker.
- The question was:
- "You had said that the President's
- firing of Director Comey, you considered to be a threat to
- national security.
- And my question was, in what way was it a
- threat to national security?"
- The answer was:
- "So the investigation at a high level was
- about Russia, period, full stop.
- And it was trying to assess,
- in this particular instance, what the Russians were doing or had
- done with respect to the 2016 Presidential election.
- We are
- 82
- trying to investigate what the Russians did and what any -- and
- whether there were any Americans or others who had done things
- in support of those efforts, either knowingly or unknowingly,
- so that we could understand the full nature and scope of what
- the Russians had attempted to do.
- And so to the extent that this action of firing Director
- Comey may have been caused by or was the result of a decision
- to shut down that investigation, which I thought was a legitimate
- investigation, then that would frustrate our ability to some
- degree to ascertain what the Russians as well as any other
- Americans or others had done in furtherance of the objectives
- of the Russian Federation.
- So not only -- I guess the point is not only would it be
- an issue about obstructing the investigation, but the
- obstruction itself would hurt our ability to figure out what the
- Russians had done and what is and what would be the threat to
- the national security.
- Our inability or our -- the inability
- or the delays, the difficulties that we might have with respect
- to trying to figure out what the Russians were doing, because
- our main objective was to thwart them."
- Director Comey, do you agree with Mr. Baker's assessment
- that President Trump's firing you was a threat to national
- security?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know enough to say to the -- if it's
- true that the firing was designed to thwart the Russian
- 83
- investigation, then I would agree, understanding of what Russia
- was doing.
- But I don't know enough about the reasons -- what
- the real reasons were for the firing to give you a definitive
- answer.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Well, Mr. Comey, didn't you write memos
- about the conversation?
- Wasn't it important enough to you as
- a law enforcement officer who deals with national security to
- solidify or to cement your memory in a memo?
- Mr. Comey.
- Sure.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- So wouldn't that lead to a conclusion that
- this was really a dangerous posture to be in and it might
- jeopardize national security?
- Mr. Comey.
- Sure, it might.
- I just can't answer the
- ultimate question as to whether it did because I don't know for
- certain what the motivation was in firing me.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- In hindsight as well?
- Well, I've heard President Trump say on
- television that he fired me because of the Russia thing.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- So with that in mind, would you say that
- was a threat to national security?
- Mr. Comey.
- If that was the reason for the firing.
- But I've
- also heard him say other things at other times that that wasn't
- the reason, and so it's really not -- I'm not able to answer it
- because I can't see enough of the facts.
- I'm sure that's
- something the special counsel is examining.
- 84
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Do you agree that your firing could have
- threatened the ability of the FBI to learn what the Russians as
- well as any other Americans or others had done in the furtherance
- of the objectives of the Russian Federation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Potentially.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- In the past 18 months since that
- testimony, do you feel more certain that you were fired because
- of the Russian investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- If so, why?
- I'm still in the same place, that I've heard
- the President say that, but I've also heard him say different
- things.
- So I can't answer the question.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Is there any need to further investigate
- Hillary Clinton's emails based upon the decision that you made
- not to prosecute?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not that I can possibly see.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- You consider this case closed?
- Mr. Comey.
- There's no serious person who thinks
- Yes.
- there's a prosecutable case there.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Cummings.
- I yield.
- And so, not that can I see.
- Thank you.
- Thank you very much.
- Director Comey, Elijah Cummings, the ranking member of the
- Oversight Committee.
- You've already testified to Congress about the Russia
- investigation a number of times.
- The last time was June 2017
- during the Senate Intelligence Committee hearing, so that was
- 85
- about 18 months ago.
- During your June 2017 testimony before the Senate
- Intelligence Committee, you stated, and I quote, "The Russia
- investigation itself is vital because of the threat, and I know
- I should have said this earlier, but it's obvious if any Americans
- were part of helping the Russians do that to us, that is a very
- big deal," end of quote.
- Director Comey, can you elaborate on what, quote, "the
- threat," unquote, is that makes the Russia investigation so
- vital?
- Mr. Comey.
- The aim of the Russian effort in 2016 was to
- destabilize, undermine, damage our democracy.
- overwhelming goal.
- That was their
- And so you have a foreign nation that is
- attacking the United States of America in an effort to undermine
- that which is essentially us, our democratic process.
- a very serious threat.
- So that's
- And understanding whether any Americans
- were part of that effort is incredibly important because the
- threat of those Americans by virtue of their alliance with the
- Russians would pose to our country.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Can you describe for us the magnitude of the
- national security threat the FBI was investigating?
- Mr. Comey.
- I just said it.
- Well, I don't know that I can say it better than
- We saw, as did the rest of the intelligence
- community, in 2016, the Russians engaged in a widespread,
- sophisticated effort to undermine this democracy, to hurt one
- 86
- of the candidates, Secretary Clinton, and to help the other
- candidate, Donald Trump.
- Given the stakes of the election and
- the nature that we are a democracy, it is hard to imagine anything
- more important than understanding and thwarting that threat.
- Mr. Cummings.
- If someone were to impede or prematurely
- halt the special counsel's Russia investigation, how severe
- would the implications be to our national security, in your
- opinion?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, in my opinion, it would undermine our
- national security by not holding accountable people who might
- have been involved in either the Russians or people who worked
- with them, first.
- And second, it would send an absolutely
- appalling message about the rule of law in this country of ours.
- Mr. Cummings.
- And would there also be severe implications
- for our democracy and the rule of law?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- The Russians' goal was for everyone in
- the world to have doubt about the nature and credibility of the
- American democracy, to dirty it up so it's not a shining city
- on the hill.
- So their attack had implications for that, the role
- of the American democratic experiment.
- And if someone were to
- order it stopped, the investigation into that, it would have a
- similar effect.
- Mr. Cummings.
- You stated it was, quote, "obvious," end
- quote, that any Americans helping the Russians interfere with
- our election is a big deal.
- And I agree.
- 87
- Can I ask you to spell out in as basic terms as possible
- why that would be a very big deal?
- I also think it is a big deal
- that the President's campaign chairman and his national security
- advisor both pleaded guilty to committing crimes.
- Michael Flynn
- and the President's national security advisor pleaded guilty to
- having lied to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian
- Government, about sanctions.
- So the national security advisory
- lied about his contacts with the foreign government over a
- national security issue.
- How serious of a national security risk is it to have the
- national security advisor lying about his contacts with a foreign
- government adversary to the FBI and the American people?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Cummings, I don't think I can answer the
- last part of that question because it touches on the work of the
- special counsel.
- I can answer the first part, which is, the reason it's a
- big deal is you have an adversary nation attacking America.
- If
- Americans in our country are assisting them, it's aiding and
- abetting the enemy in attacking our country.
- We take it seriously when people were helping German
- saboteurs infiltrate Long Island during World War II.
- We take
- it seriously when scientists are selling secrets to the Soviets
- about our nuclear capabilities.
- I take it just as seriously if
- there are Americans who were -- and I'm not saying that there
- were -- but if there were Americans who were assisting this
- 88
- attack on our democracy, it's of the same type, which is why I
- said it's so obvious.
- Mr. Cummings.
- The President's national security advisor
- has access to our country's most closely held secrets.
- The
- Russians knew that, and they had talked to Flynn and what he
- talked about, and they knew that Flynn and others in the White
- House were lying about those communications.
- Does that create the concern that the national security
- advisor had been compromised by a foreign adversary?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think I have to give you the same answer about
- the particular, that even though the man has pled guilty, it's
- still something I think is within the purview of the special
- counsel, so I ought not to be opining on it.
- Mr. Cummings.
- All right.
- What is the risk to our country
- of having the person with access to our most closely held secrets
- be compromised or potentially compromised by a foreign
- adversary?
- happened.
- And I'm not saying that you're concluding that it
- I am just asking, what's the risk, if that were the
- case?
- Mr. Comey.
- Thank you for that.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Mr. Comey.
- You follow me?
- Yeah, I follow you, and I'd like to take it to
- one more level of abstraction.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Mr. Comey.
- Sure.
- Not talk about any particular person.
- 89
- A big part of the FBI's counterintelligence work in the
- United States is trying to understand whether foreign
- adversaries have gained any leverage over anyone in a position
- to influence a policy of the United States Government or to reveal
- its secrets.
- And so it's at the heart of our counterintelligence
- work, because that's how the bad guys overseas hurt us.
- One of
- the ways is they co-opt people, recruit them, or coerce them into
- giving up information that's inconsistent with American
- interest.
- And so it's a critical issue without regard to the
- person.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Okay.
- When Deputy Attorney General Sally
- Yates learned of the significant national security risk, she went
- over and warned the White House counsel, who was Don McGahn.
- Proper protocol when the White House learned about that
- potential national security risk would have been for the White
- House to suspend General Flynn's access to classified
- information while they looked into the matter, but they didn't
- do that.
- So we've been told that General Flynn held his active
- clearance until he was fired by the White House about 18 days
- later.
- In your experience at the FBI, when the FBI learned that
- an individual who had an active security clearance might be a
- risk to our national security, did the FBI follow the standard
- procedure I described and suspend that individual's security
- clearance pending an investigation?
- 90
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, obviously I can't comment on the
- particulars of the Flynn case.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Mr. Comey.
- But in general --
- Mr. Cummings.
- Mr. Comey.
- Right.
- Would that be -- no, you go ahead.
- A normal response would be to suspend their
- clearance, but there may be operational reasons why you wouldn't
- do that.
- Say you have somebody inside the FBI you think might
- be a spy.
- You don't want to alert them to the fact that you're
- on to them.
- Suspending their clearance might alert them that
- you're on to them.
- So you might instead just try to put them
- in a bit of a box and restrict the information there without them
- knowing.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Assuming -- so the question then becomes,
- in your opinion, why would a suspension of a clearance be
- significant there, assuming you don't have that history that you
- just stated?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, if we had someone in the FBI that we
- thought might be working for a foreign power, you want to stop
- the damage.
- And so that's why the normal practice, absent
- operational concerns, would be to stop the damage by cutting off
- their access to information that they might give to the
- adversary.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Just a few more questions.
- You have decades of dedicated service to our country and
- 91
- have served in senior roles at the Department of Justice and as
- the head of the FBI, and so I want to get your views about national
- security.
- Do you think that President Trump's actions pose a treat
- to our national security?
- Mr. Comey.
- Can you explain?
- Well, I think -- maybe the best answer I can
- give is, I think the relentless attacks on the institutions of
- justice are something we will all be sorry we stood silent, if
- we stood silent and watched that happened.
- Because those
- institutions, the Justice Department and the FBI, and the rest
- of the intelligence community, are essential to our national
- security, that they are credited and believed, which they should
- be.
- And when you run them down for political reasons, you may
- see a short-term gain; you see a long-term damage to our country
- and its security.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Where do we go from here, Mr. Comey, and how
- do we rebuild after the attacks on our democratic institutions
- and the constant breaching of our ethical norms?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, our consolation should be the depth and
- strength of America's values.
- The FBI will be fine.
- snap back, as will the rest of our institutions.
- It will
- There will be
- short-term damage, which worries me a great deal, but in the long
- run, no politician, no president can, in a lasting way, damage
- those institutions, because their values are too strong.
- American military, the intelligence community, the law
- The
- 92
- enforcement community, it would take generations to screw them
- up in a permanent way.
- So we're going to be okay.
- What falls to all of us is to speak up so that we reduce
- the damage in the short run and don't become numb to something
- that, frankly, we should all be ashamed of.
- And I think a whole
- lot of people will be ashamed of some day that they stood silent
- while this happened.
- Mr. Cummings.
- Mr. Gomez.
- Well, thank you for your service, sir.
- Thank you.
- Mr. Comey, Congressman Jimmy Gomez from California.
- A few questions.
- bias here.
- There have been a lot of discussion about
- I wanted to bring up the potential nominee for the
- next Attorney General of the United States, Bill Barr.
- Bill Barr has stated that he sees more reason for the
- Department of Justice to investigate Hillary Clinton's tenure
- as Secretary of State than investigate conspiracy between the
- Trump campaign and Russia.
- Do you think this is a useful and
- reasonable allocation of DOJ or FBI resources?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- So it's hard for me to react,
- Congressman, to a statement.
- or what the full context was.
- I don't know what he meant by that
- Unless there are facts that I
- didn't see when I was Director of the FBI, I don't see a basis
- for continued investigation on the email front.
- I don't know
- what he -- I can't imagine he saw something as a private citizen,
- so I don't know what to think of that.
- And I think very highly
- 93
- of him.
- I mean, I used to work for him.
- better than I know Bob Mueller.
- I probably know him
- I probably just damned him by
- saying he's a friend of mine, but I respect him.
- I just don't
- know what he meant by that.
- Mr. Gomez.
- Do you think Bill Barr may be acting out of
- political motivation when suggesting a new Clinton probe?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Gomez.
- Bill Barr supported Trump during the campaign.
- And then during the campaign, he also publicly supported your
- decision to disclose the Clinton investigation had been
- reopened.
- Later, however, he supported President Trump's
- decision to fire you on the basis that you, quote/unquote,
- sandbagged the Department of Justice with your unilateral action
- on the Clinton probe.
- Do you think that Bill Barr is fit to oversee the FBI and
- the special counsel investigation in a nonpartisan manner if he
- were to return to serve as Attorney General?
- Mr. Comey.
- General.
- I think he's certainly fit to be Attorney
- As I said, I think very highly of him.
- Whether he
- should be involved in those particular cases or not is a question
- I can't answer.
- I'm sure he'll reflect on it carefully, he's
- a very smart guy, and get expert advice on it.
- I just can't
- answer it without knowing more.
- Mr. Gomez.
- What factors would he take into consideration
- if he were to be involved in overseeing the special counsel
- 94
- investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, most importantly you want to consider,
- any time you are a leader of an institution of justice, whether
- there's a reasonable appearance that you lack the impartiality
- necessary to be involved in a particular case.
- And so you'd want
- to look at prior statements, prior engagement in litigation,
- those kinds of things to see whether reasonable folks could have
- a doubt about whether you are calling it as you see it or on one
- team or the other.
- And given the things you just laid out, it
- raises a question with respect to him, so I'm sure he's going
- to want to look at it, as will the Senate, very closely.
- Mr. Gomez.
- What do you think may be the factors that led
- President Trump to nominate or will nominate Bill Barr as
- Attorney General?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- I know Bill for years and his
- record as a lawyer and as the Attorney General, and I think
- they're impressive.
- But I don't know what the President was
- thinking.
- Mr. Gomez.
- I do believe that Congress has a role in the
- oversight of the executive branch.
- lines of that oversight.
- My concern is what are the
- What factors could you take into
- account that oversight leads to interference with an ongoing
- investigation?
- Or is there anything in your mind that would be
- off limits?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, hard to answer in the abstract.
- I mean,
- 95
- I can say this:
- I'm a big fan of oversight.
- My staff used to
- think I was kidding when I said I want to come here and answer
- every question when I was Director of the FBI.
- I think it's important that this branch of government
- exercise its power.
- I think one of the really bad things about
- the drift of American history, in my lifetime, is this
- organization, this institution has given up a lot of its power.
- And so I like the idea of oversight.
- That said, investigations have to be done with a Lady
- Justice with a blindfold on, and so you really can't have
- oversight by a political branch of ongoing investigations and
- still credibly claim that the Lady Justice is wearing the
- blindfold.
- So what I would suggest is you do oversight after
- investigations are completed to see if the institution was acting
- in an appropriate way.
- As I said, when I moved to quash the subpoena, I support
- oversight of the executive branch.
- I just have concerns about
- interference with ongoing investigations, and when oversight
- moves from seeking truth to seeking something else, it concerns
- me.
- Mr. Gomez.
- Some of the questions that have been brought
- up to me from my constituents relate to the decision to reveal
- the Hillary Clinton investigation 11 days before an election but
- not regarding the individuals that were being investigated in
- regards to any potential conspiracy with the Trump
- 96
- administration or the Russian Government.
- Can you get into that a little bit?
- I know you did earlier,
- but there is still -- you're getting shots from both sides of
- the aisle and on some of the decisionmaking.
- And my constituents
- are really interested in that response.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- It's a reasonable question, yes.
- Everybody seems to think I'm on somebody else's side, but the
- treatment of the two cases illustrates the rule.
- In the Clinton investigation, we didn't say anything about
- that investigation for a year, except simply 3 months in to
- confirm that we had an investigation.
- And that was an
- investigation that began publicly, with a public referral.
- the whole world knew we had it.
- So
- We formally confirmed it after
- investigating for 3 months, then we said nothing until it was
- done.
- That's the way we treated the Russian counterintelligence
- investigations.
- We opened them in late July, didn't know
- whether we had anything.
- In fact, when I was fired as director,
- I still didn't know whether there was anything to it.
- And so
- we would never consider making a statement about classified
- investigations that were just beginning.
- The problem in late October was we -- me and Loretta
- Lynch -- had told the world, "We're done with the Clinton email
- investigation.
- Move on."
- And I got hammered in this room by
- Republicans, and in many other rooms.
- And I stood my ground and
- 97
- said, "No, there's no there, there.
- Move on."
- On October 27th, I learned that that was no longer true.
- And I had my team telling me, not only is it no longer true, but
- the result may change from our review of these hundreds of
- thousands of emails, and we can't finish it before the election.
- And so what do I do?
- Do I stay silent and leave the Congress
- and the American people relying on something I now know is a lie
- or do I speak?
- And those are two really bad options.
- choice was to take the least bad.
- And my
- Tell Congress what I told you
- repeatedly is no longer true and try to make sure it's, "we don't
- know," "we're not sure," but to speak.
- Because to conceal would
- be to destroy the FBI and the Department of Justice.
- Forget Hillary Clinton's Presidency, although that would
- be severely damaged if she became President on that basis.
- I
- made the judgement that the Department of Justice and the FBI
- will be ruined if I concealed a lie from this Congress.
- Reasonable people can disagree about that, but it illustrates
- that we treated the two consistently.
- And what trapped us in
- October was we had told everybody it was over in the summertime.
- Mr. Gomez.
- Thank you.
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- We're out of time.
- We'll go off the record.
- 98
- [1:00 p.m.]
- Mr. Gowdy.
- We'll go back on the record.
- Director Comey, I'm going to summarize from a portion of
- what we refer to as the Comey memos.
- of 2017.
- This one is from February
- I don't know whether or not you have a copy of your
- memos or whether or not you have recollection of what's in them.
- Mr. Kelley.
- We don't have copies with us.
- If you want to
- give them to us, it might expedite things.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And, again, this is one from February of 2017.
- Mr. Comey.
- Which date in February?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I want to say it's the 14th, but I could be
- wrong -- 14th.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- Got it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And at the top, it says, "I attended an Oval
- Office" -- you got that one?
- Mr. Comey.
- I got it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Fourth paragraph, and just tell me whether or
- not I'm fairly summarizing this.
- but:
- I'm not going to read it all,
- He -- and I assume "he" is the President, President
- Trump -- began by saying he wanted want to talk about Mike Flynn.
- That's in quotes.
- He said that, although Flynn hadn't done
- anything wrong in his call with the Russians, he had to let him
- go because he misled the Vice President, whom he described as
- a good guy.
- Now, was the "he" -- is the "he" modifying Vice
- President Pence or Mike Flynn, when you say whom he described
- 99
- as a, quote, good guy?
- Mr. Comey.
- I took him to be meaning Mr. Flynn is a good
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Okay.
- guy.
- He explained that he just couldn't have
- Flynn misleading the Vice President.
- In any event, he had other
- concerns about Flynn; he had a great guy coming in, so he had
- to let Flynn go.
- Have I fairly summarized that paragraph?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- I think.
- Next page, second full paragraph,
- Yeah, second full paragraph, it begins:
- He then.
- You got it?
- Mr. Comey.
- Got it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- He then returned to the topic of Mike Flynn,
- saying:
- Flynn's a good guy and has been through a lot.
- He
- misled the Vice President, but he didn't do anything wrong in
- the call.
- Said:
- I hope you can see your way clear of letting
- this go, to letting Flynn go.
- let this go.
- He is a good guy.
- I hope you can
- I replied by saying I agree he is a good guy, but
- said no more.
- Have I fairly described that paragraph?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- In fact, I think you read it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do the contents of that paragraph, are they
- sufficient to launch an obstruction of justice investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Potentially.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What part of it potentially could lead to the
- 100
- initiation of an obstruction of justice investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- The President asking -- one interpretation of
- it is the President asking the FBI to drop a criminal
- investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you act or fail to act in any way in the
- Flynn matter because of what the President said to you?
- Mr. Comey.
- direction.
- Act or fail to act?
- I didn't abide this
- In fact, kept it to a fairly small group in FBI
- headquarters so it would not have any impact on the
- investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- But I'm asking you specifically --
- Mr. Comey.
- I took acts -- the reason I'm hesitating is I
- took acts to make sure it had no impact on the investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I'm with you, but it did not -- did his comments
- prevent you from following the leads that you thought should have
- been followed?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did his comments prevent you from taking any
- act as the Director of the FBI that you thought were warranted
- by the other fact pattern?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- This had -- I did not abide this.
- And it
- did not affect the investigation, so far as I'm aware, in any
- way.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you initiate an obstruction of justice
- investigation based on what the President said?
- 101
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think so.
- I don't recall doing that,
- so I don't think so.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would you recall initiating a criminal
- investigation into the President of the United States?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, I'm sorry.
- I didn't personally, but I
- took it also to mean, did anyone else in the FBI open a file with
- an obstruction heading or something?
- Not to my knowledge is the
- answer.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you talk to Andy McCabe the day you were
- fired?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think so.
- I don't think -- it's
- possible, but I don't think so.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you talk to Lisa Page the day you were fired?
- Mr. Comey.
- That I'm sure of.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you talk to Peter Strzok the day you were
- No.
- fired?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know whether or not an obstruction of
- justice investigation was launched the day you were fired?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- If Flynn had said, "Director Comey" -- I'm
- sorry.
- If President Trump had said, "Director Comey, General Flynn
- made a mistake, and he didn't have the intent to violate the law,"
- would you have viewed that as obstruction?
- 102
- Mr. Comey.
- I can't answer that hypothetical.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, we're going to have to get our way through
- it a little bit.
- Is someone saying, "Look, he just made a
- mistake" -- mistake is a defense to certain crimes, right?
- So
- that could be interpreted as didn't commit a criminal offense.
- Mr. Comey.
- The reason I don't feel comfortable going into
- hypotheticals is obstruction is a crime that turns on intent,
- and I can't speak in -- either in fact or in hypotheticals to
- intent here.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, what was the President's intent
- when -- in your opinion, when he said, "I hope you can see your
- way clear to letting this go"?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So it would be the failure of an essential
- element of an obstruction of justice case if the person who
- received that information did not view it as an attempt to impact
- his decisionmaking?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think that's right as a matter of law.
- I don't think the reaction of the object of the obstructive
- effort, their perception, is dispositive.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Were you obstructed?
- Mr. Comey.
- Because I think I could have -- I could endeavor
- to obstruct something and you not realize what I'm doing.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Were you obstructed?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, I don't know -- there was no impact, so
- 103
- far as I'm aware, on the investigation, from this conversation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- If he had said, "Look, General Flynn doesn't
- have the intent to commit a crime," how would you have viewed
- that?
- Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you understand the question?
- Yeah, I still would not offer an opinion as to
- what his intention was in doing that.
- I would find it very
- concerning, just as I found this very concerning, but I didn't
- then, and I don't now, have an opinion on the ultimate question
- about whether it was obstruction.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, the reason I ask general -- Director
- Comey, is, there was another Chief Executive who referred to an
- ongoing criminal matter by saying she made a mistake, and she
- lacked criminal intent.
- Did you view that as potentially
- obstruction of justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- Talking about President Obama now?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Yes.
- Mr. Comey.
- I didn't see it as -- through the lens of
- obstruction of justice.
- I saw it as threatening our ability to
- credibly complete the investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- In what way?
- Mr. Comey.
- The President of the United States offering a
- view on a matter or a case that's under investigation, when that
- President is of the same party as the subject of the investigation
- and working for her election, would tend to cast doubt in
- 104
- reasonable people's minds about whether the investigation had
- been conducted and completed fairly, competently, and
- independently.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So, if it doesn't rise to the level of
- obstruction, how would you characterize the Chief Executive
- saying that the target of an investigation that was ongoing
- simply made a mistake and lacked the requisite criminal intent?
- Mr. Comey.
- It would concern me.
- It concerns me whenever
- the Chief Executive comments on pending criminal investigations,
- something we see a lot today, which is why it concerned me when
- President Obama did it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, it concerns me too, Director Comey.
- I'm
- also concerned that people treat similarly situated people the
- same.
- And did you make a memo after President Obama said she
- made a mistake and lacked the requisite criminal intent?
- Mr. Comey.
- He said that on FOX News.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Right.
- Mr. Comey.
- I did not make a memo about the FOX News
- broadcast.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you have a meeting with your investigative
- team to make sure that they were not in any way impacted by what
- he said?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who is Christopher Steele?
- to that, let me ask you this.
- Well, before I go
- 105
- At any -- who interviewed General Flynn, which FBI agents?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is two agents, one of whom was
- Pete Strzok and the other of whom is a career line agent, not
- a supervisor.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did either of those agents, or both, ever tell
- you that they did not adduce an intent to deceive from their
- interview with General Flynn?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Have you ever testified differently?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall being asked that question in a
- HPSCI hearing?
- Mr. Comey.
- I was asked.
- No.
- I recall -- I don't remember what question
- I recall saying the agents observed no indicia of
- deception, physical manifestations, shiftiness, that sort of
- thing.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who would you have gotten that from if you were
- not present for the interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- From someone at the FBI, who either spoke to -- I
- don't think I spoke to the interviewing agents but got the report
- from the interviewing agents.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- So you would have, what, read the
- 302 or had a conversation with someone who read the 302?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember for sure.
- I think I may have
- done both, that is, read the 302 and then spoke to people who
- 106
- had spoken to the investigators themselves.
- spoke to the investigators directly.
- It's possible I
- I just don't remember
- that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And, again, what was communicated on the issue
- of an intent to deceive?
- What's your recollection on what those
- agents relayed back?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection was he was -- the conclusion
- of the investigators was he was obviously lying, but they saw
- none of the normal common indicia of deception: that is,
- hesitancy to answer, shifting in seat, sweating, all the things
- that you might associate with someone who is conscious and
- manifesting that they are being -- they're telling falsehoods.
- There's no doubt he was lying, but that those indicators weren't
- there.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When you say "lying," I generally think of an
- intent to deceive as opposed to someone just uttering a false
- statement.
- Mr. Comey.
- Sure.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Is it possible to utter a false statement
- without it being lying?
- Mr. Comey.
- I can't answer -- that's a philosophical
- question I can't answer.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- No, I mean, if I said, "Hey, look, I hope you
- had a great day yesterday on Tuesday," that's demonstrably false.
- Mr. Comey.
- That's an expression of opinion.
- 107
- Mr. Gowdy.
- No, it's a fact that yesterday was --
- Mr. Comey.
- You hope I have a great day --
- Mr. Gowdy.
- No, no, no, yesterday was not Tuesday.
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, see, I didn't even know that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So is it possible to make a false statement
- Yeah.
- without having the intent to deceive?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- Is making a false statement without
- the intent to deceive a crime?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- I can't answer that without
- thinking better about it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So would it, therefore, be relevant, whether
- or -- I'll let you finish talking to your lawyer.
- Mr. Comey.
- Sorry, go ahead.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would it, therefore, be relevant whether or not
- General Flynn had an intent to deceive?
- Mr. Comey.
- Let me step away from the case.
- In
- investigating any false statement case, you want to understand,
- did the defendant, the subject, know they were making a false
- statement?
- Because you aren't prosecuted for accidents, slips
- of memory, things like that.
- So, in any false-statement case,
- it's important to understand, what's the proof that they knew
- what they were saying was false?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And, again -- because I'm afraid I may have
- interrupted you, which I didn't mean to do -- your agents, it
- 108
- was relayed to you that your agents' perspective on that
- interview with General Flynn was what?
- you was, you said:
- He was lying.
- Because where I stopped
- They knew he was lying, but
- he didn't have the indicia of lying.
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- All I was doing was answering your
- question, which I understood to be your question, about whether
- I had previously testified that he -- the agents did not believe
- he was lying.
- I was trying to clarify.
- I think that reporting
- that you've seen is the product of a garble.
- What I recall
- telling the House Intelligence Committee is that the agents
- observed none of the common indicia of lying -- physical
- manifestations, changes in tone, changes in pace -- that would
- indicate the person I'm interviewing knows they're telling me
- stuff that ain't true.
- They didn't see that here.
- It was a
- natural conversation, answered fully their questions, didn't
- avoid.
- That notwithstanding, they concluded he was lying.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would that be considered Brady material and
- hypothetically a subsequent prosecution for false statement?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's too hypothetical for me.
- interesting law school question:
- I mean,
- Is the absence of
- incriminating evidence exculpatory evidence?
- But I can't
- answer that question.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, you used to be the United States Attorney
- for the Southern District of New York.
- over that information?
- Would you have turned
- 109
- Mr. Comey.
- can't.
- I can't answer that in the abstract.
- I just
- It depends upon too many unique circumstances to a case.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who is Christopher Steele?
- Mr. Comey.
- My understanding is that Christopher Steele is
- a former intelligence officer of an allied nation who prepared
- a series of reports in the summer of 2016 that have become known
- as the Steele dossier.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- How long did he have a relationship with the
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you ever meet him?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Never met him, never talked to him?
- Mr. Comey.
- Sorry.
- FBI?
- Okay.
- No, I never met him, never spoken to the man.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When did you learn he was working for Fusion
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know that I ever knew that -- certainly
- GPS?
- while I worked at the FBI.
- I think I've read that in open source,
- but I didn't know that while I was FBI.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who did you think he was working for?
- Mr. Comey.
- I thought he was retained as part of a
- Republican-financed effort -- retained by Republicans adverse
- to Mr. Trump during the primary season, and then his work was
- underwritten after that by Democrats opposed to Mr. Trump during
- 110
- the general election season.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When did you learn that his work went from being
- financed by what you described as Republicans to what you
- described as Democrats?
- Mr. Comey.
- guess.
- Sometime in September, October, is my best
- I don't remember for sure, when I was briefed on the
- materials that had been provided to the FBI.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, ordinarily, it wouldn't be important
- whether it was December or October, but -Mr. Comey.
- September or October.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Right.
- Ordinarily, it wouldn't be important.
- Just so happens, in this fact pattern, it might be.
- Pardon me?
- Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I thought you said "December or October."
- Oh, December -- or September?
- Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- You said September first; he said -Ordinarily -- let me correct it then.
- Ordinarily, it wouldn't be important whether it was
- September or October.
- In this fact pattern, it may be.
- Do you
- have any recollection, did anything else happen in September or
- October that may refresh your recollection on when you learned
- it?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- best recollection.
- It was either September/October, is my
- If I had to say, which I will, more likely
- September than October, but I'm really not certain.
- 111
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know whether you learned it before there
- were any court filings or pleadings filed in connection with the
- Russia investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- filings.
- Court filings?
- I don't remember court
- Oh, you're talking about FISA?
- Sorry.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I was trying to avoid use of the word, but that's
- Mr. Comey.
- I think it's been used publicly, which is why I
- okay.
- just used it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I think it has too, but that doesn't mean it
- should have been.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah.
- I certainly learned of it before the end of October.
- And
- I think the filing that you're referring to obliquely was at the
- end of October sometime.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So it was before that.
- When did you learn that Fusion GPS was hired
- by Perkins Coie?
- Mr. Comey.
- I never learned that, certainly not while I was
- Director.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, when did you learn the DNC had hired
- Perkins Coie?
- Mr. Comey.
- Director.
- I never learned that.
- Again, while I was
- I think I've read it in the media, but, yeah, even
- today, I don't know whether it's true.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Now, when you say you never learned it but may
- 112
- have read it in the media -Mr. Comey.
- After I left as Director.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- While you were the Director, you never knew that
- the DNC hired a law firm that hired an oppo research firm that
- hired Christopher Steele?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I don't think so.
- I don't have any
- recollection of being told that or reading that or learning that
- while I was Director.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Is it relevant to you who was paying Chris
- Steele?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, in the sense that I thought it was
- important to understand that it was politically motivated
- effort, first by Republicans, then by Democrats.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Whose obligation in the Bureau would it have
- been to bring it to your attention?
- Mr. Comey.
- "obligation."
- I don't know about your use of the word
- I'd have to think that through more carefully,
- but I do know that I was told about it, I think, by the general
- counsel, but I'm not sure.
- And I don't know whether that stemmed
- from an obligation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- We'll get at that another way.
- The
- word "obligation" stemmed from the fact that this is a
- counterintelligence investigation into a political campaign.
- I think you testified -- and I hope you agree -- the source who
- was paying for that information would be relevant.
- 113
- Mr. Comey.
- First of all, I have to disagree with your
- assertion that it was a counterintelligence investigation into
- a political campaign.
- I've said that earlier, that it wasn't.
- It was four counterintelligence files on four Americans.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- The --
- I know you said that, Director Comey, but I
- think you -Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Comey.
- Let him finish his answer, please.
- Who -- who paid and the particulars of who paid
- would be important to people working the case, but the level of
- specificity that the Director needed to know is, to my mind, a
- different question.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- If the Director were signing a court filing that
- had a representation in it, the Director would want to know
- whether or not those representations were accurate.
- Mr. Comey.
- The Director would want to know that the
- process -- carefully constructed process of the FBI had been
- followed, that the right people had reviewed things, that the
- right signoffs had been held, before I would sign the
- certification that came with it.
- That's probably the most I can
- say about the role of the Director in a FISA.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Was Christopher Steele also working with or for
- the Bureau while he was working for Fusion GPS?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know whether the FBI was paying
- Christopher Steele for any of his work in the fall -- summer or
- 114
- fall of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is that the FBI was not paying
- him, that the FBI had reimbursed him for some travel expenses
- and had raised the prospect that if there was fruitful further
- work, he could be paid for it.
- But my recollection is that he
- was not paid.
- These are the things I remember learning when I
- was Director.
- Could be wrong, but I think that's what I was told.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- then.
- I think you have answered the next question
- Assuming that you are incorrect and the FBI was paying
- him, you don't recall how much the FBI paid him?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, as I said, my recollection is that he was
- reimbursed for expenses and that he was not paid for his work
- in connection with the Russia subject, but that the prospect was
- raised.
- So, of course, given that I don't recall that he was
- paid for his work, the answer would be I don't recall how much
- he was paid because he wasn't paid, in my recollection.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When the Bureau uses sources or informants, are
- there agreements signed?
- Are there certain obligations on
- behalf of the source or the informant?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I'm not expert enough to answer that.
- I'm sure that there are, but I don't know the particulars.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Is it -- would it be unusual for the FBI to tell
- a source or an informant, you can't commit any other crimes while
- you're working for the Bureau?
- Mr. Comey.
- I believe that's the case.
- 115
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would it be unusual for the Bureau to tell a
- source or an informant, you can't have media contacts while
- you're working for the Bureau?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know whether that's part of the standard
- warnings or directions to a source.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Mr. Kelley.
- And you're not familiar -Excuse me.
- One second, please.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay, thank you.
- I'm sorry.
- Go ahead.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- How did Chris Steele's information reach the
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- FBI?
- I have some
- recollection that he passed it to an agent that he knew and that
- that agent sent it on to headquarters.
- I think that's the way
- in which it reached the Counterintelligence Division, but I don't
- remember the specifics of that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- How did the Bureau investigate whatever
- information Steele provided?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know in particular.
- I know that the
- Counterintelligence Division was investigating various aspects
- of the reports he had supplied, and that investigation was
- ongoing when I was fired.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know whether the Bureau endeavored to
- either contradict or corroborate factual assertions made in what
- has later been described as the Steele dossier?
- 116
- Mr. Comey.
- My understanding is that that effort -- that
- an effort was under way to try to replicate, either rule in or
- rule out, as much of that collection of reports that's commonly
- now called the Steele dossier as possible, and that that work
- was ongoing when I was fired.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- When did that work begin?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is sometime in '16, but I don't
- know when.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Before or after it was used in a court filing?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think before that.
- I think -- I think when
- it was received, there was an effort immediately to try and
- evaluate it to understand it, and that continued over the next
- 6 months.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What is the basis of your belief that there was
- an immediate attempt to corroborate or contradict the underlying
- factual assertions?
- Mr. Comey.
- I have some recollection, vague, of being told
- we're trying to assess this to understand what we can make of
- it, what parts we can rely on, what parts we can't.
- But I
- don't -- I don't remember more than that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Was Steele the original source of the
- information, or did he himself have sources and subsources?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Chairman, to the extent that it
- goes -- your line of questioning goes beyond Christopher Steele
- in particular and into other sources that may impact special
- 117
- counsel's investigation, I will have to instruct the witness not
- to answer the questions.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- He can't answer whether Chris Steele was the
- original source for all of the information in the Steele dossier?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- To the extent it goes into -I didn't mention the phrase "special counsel."
- I know you have not, Mr. Chairman.
- I'm just asking the former Director of the FBI,
- who received information from a source, whether that source had
- knowledge of the underlying accuracy of that information or
- whether the source was relying on other sources.
- I don't know
- how that implicates anything Bob Mueller's doing.
- Ms. Bessee.
- If the source relies on other information,
- because this is all part of an ongoing investigation, it may
- impact -Mr. Gowdy.
- Ms. Bessee.
- How?
- Why don't we have the witness -- if it impacts
- the investigation, because the witness has knowledge as to
- whether it would or not, he may not be able to answer the question.
- So I will have the witness -Mr. Gowdy.
- That's a different answer if he doesn't -- if
- he doesn't have recollection.
- Do you know whether Chris Steele relied on sources and
- subsources to compile the information that ultimately made it
- to the FBI?
- 118
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is he did have a source network
- of sources and subsources and that this collection of reports
- reflected reporting by those, that source network.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did the FBI make any effort to identify those
- sources and subsources that Steele would have relied upon?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- With success?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember, and I think I don't remember
- because the work was not finished before I left.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I'm not asking you for names, but I'm asking
- you for a sense of scope.
- How many sources and subsources did
- Steele rely upon?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Chairman, again, the number or the how
- many sources or subsources would go to things involved in the
- special counsel investigation.
- So the witness will not be able
- to answer that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- For the life of me, I don't understand how that
- could possibly be so.
- What I do know to be so is I need -- and
- think I have a right -- to ask the former Director of the FBI,
- given the fact that we've already established Steele had sources
- and subsources, whether or not the Bureau made an effort to
- contact and corroborate or contradict the information provided
- by those sources.
- Is it the Bureau's position that I'm
- incorrect?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Could we have a minute to talk to the witness?
- 119
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, if it's -- yeah, if we can toll the clock.
- I mean, I'm already running out of time.
- Mr. Comey.
- Can I have your question again, Mr. Gowdy?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Pardon me?
- Mr. Comey.
- What's the question again?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- God, if I remember.
- I think it was whether or
- not the Bureau made any effort -- oh, I think what I asked is
- whether or not you had an idea the scope, the breadth, of the
- number of sources or subsources Steele relied upon.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- I have a recollection that there were
- a variety of sources and subsources, but I don't have a sense
- of the scope.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you have a sense that the Bureau was able
- to identify every source and subsource Steele relied upon?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know one way or another.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I'm going to let Mr. Ratcliffe take over from
- here, other than I'm going to ask you whether hearsay is
- ordinarily admissible in court or not.
- Mr. Comey.
- Is this a quiz?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- No.
- Well, if I didn't think you could answer
- it, I wouldn't have asked you.
- Mr. Comey.
- I know you know the answer.
- It depends upon whether it fits within one of
- the exceptions to the hearsay rule.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Assuming -- what's the general rule?
- get to the exceptions.
- We won't
- The general rule, is hearsay admissible
- 120
- or not admissible?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, the general rule is that hearsay is not
- admissible unless it falls within one of the exceptions to the
- hearsay rule.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Right.
- And we're going to assume for the sake
- of argument that there's no exception unless you can identify
- one.
- What is the definition of -- well, is it an out-of-court
- statement offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, that's my recollection.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- Mr. Kelley.
- You know, Mr. Gowdy, we've agreed to be here
- to talk about the questions and decisions made and not made in
- connection with the investigation of Russia and Clinton's
- emails.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Yes.
- Mr. Kelley.
- And we've been very patient, but why don't we
- get to the point instead of asking ridiculous questions about
- the definition -Mr. Gowdy.
- The fact that you think it's ridiculous is of
- no consequence to me whatsoever, Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I'm sure it's not.
- It's not.
- And I've asked almost every other
- witness, none of whom had an attorney that didn't understand the
- relevance of that question.
- Mr. Comey.
- So that's between you and
- But the reason that I want to ask about hearsay is
- 121
- the ability to rely upon information that cannot be
- cross-examined.
- That's why I want to ask about it.
- And if you
- can't see that, then y'all can discuss that on the next break,
- but I'm going to go back into it, and for now, it will be
- Mr. Ratcliffe's turn.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey, do you recall that you signed
- a FISA application on October 21st, 2016, relating to Carter
- Page?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't recall the date.
- I do remember signing
- such a FISA in October.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Would you have reviewed the FISA
- application before you signed it?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall that the FISA application
- would have been titled -- or was titled "verified application"?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I don't recall that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Don't all FISA applications state that they
- are verified applications?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- I don't -- sitting here today,
- I can't remember the word "verified."
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- What did the FISA application that you
- signed on October 21st of 2016, aver in terms of probable cause
- for a warrant on Carter Page?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Congressman, he can only respond to
- information that's not classified or that's been put out there
- 122
- in the public.
- If there is something that he can look at,
- because, as you know, part of that -- parts of that application
- is classified.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I was told that -- that the Director didn't
- want to review any classified information today and that he came
- here without any provisional clearances because he didn't want
- them, but yet he was prepared to answer any questions that may
- pertain to classified information.
- Mr. Kelley.
- Is that incorrect?
- That is incorrect.
- We were told in advance
- that this would not deal with anything law enforcement sensitive
- or classified information.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Kelley.
- Who told you that?
- House counsel.
- Not so much who told me, so
- much as a representation made before a United States district
- judge.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So, Mr. Chairman, I would recommend that
- there are two different statements that the attorney just made.
- One was classified; the other was law enforcement sensitive.
- I
- can't imagine that House counsel would have inadvertently agreed
- to that.
- We need to check with Mr. Hungar and make sure that
- we're consistent with that.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- We'll do that.
- The House counsel's
- position is very clear, that the Congress does not recognize an
- ongoing investigation prohibition on answering questions.
- We
- do obviously recognize a classified, and we're prepared to create
- 123
- that environment, if necessary, to ask that question in that
- environment.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Did the FISA application that you
- certified, or verified, allege that there was probable cause to
- believe that Carter Page was working for or with the Russian
- Government?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember specifically.
- My
- recollection is it was -- it was submitted to the court as part
- of an application where the Department of Justice was alleging
- that he was an agent of a foreign power, namely, the Russian
- Federation, but I can't remember what it said about probable
- cause.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Would it have averred that there was
- probable cause to believe that he was in a position to influence
- the Trump campaign or Trump campaign officials?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- But you did review it?
- Yes.
- I remember reading it for the purpose of
- signing the certification that the FBI Director has to sign.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall that part of the probable
- cause submitted to the court was the -- what you've referred to
- as the Steele dossier?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Following up on Mr. Gowdy's question about
- Christopher Steele, do you know whether he had any direct
- 124
- knowledge about collusion, coordination, or conspiracy between
- anyone associated with the Trump campaign, or was it based on
- other sources and subsources?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is that it was the latter, that
- he didn't have personal knowledge of most, maybe all, of the
- things that were in the reports, but they were reported to him
- by sources and that the, sort of, the core allegation of the
- dossier, as I recall, was that there was an effort to coordinate
- with the Russian interference campaign, but that was not the
- product of Steele's personal knowledge is my -- I could be wrong
- about that, but that's my recollection.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- All right, so, if there were other sources
- or subsources, would you agree that that information would be
- double and triple hearsay?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Could be.
- I don't know.
- Do you know whether each application -- or
- do you know whether the application that you signed states that
- the FBI has reviewed this verified application for accuracy?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember that specifically.
- It sounds
- like the kind of thing that would be in there as a matter of
- course, but I don't remember.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And what would be the purpose of verifying
- to the FISA court that the Department of Justice and the FBI have
- corroborated the allegations?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, you're trying to convince a Federal judge
- 125
- that you have probable cause, and so the better you can present
- your evidence and the way it might overlap or interlock, the
- better the chance you have of convincing the judge you have
- probable cause.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So I want to relate to you some of the
- testimony that we've already received.
- FBI Deputy Director Andy
- McCabe testified before Congress that the FBI could provide no
- points of verification to verify the Steele information other
- than the fact that Carter Page had traveled to Russia in July
- of 2016.
- Were you aware of that when you signed the application
- on October 21st of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember any of that right now.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Bill Priestap who -- what does Bill
- Priestap do at the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think he's still the Assistant Director in
- charge of the Counterintelligence Division.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- He testified that corroboration of
- the Steele dossier was in its, quote/unquote, infancy, at the
- time of the application that you signed on October 21st, 2016.
- Did you know that?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember hearing that, but that makes
- sense to me, if my recollection is correct, that we got it in
- September or maybe October.
- It would, by definition, be in its
- infancy in October.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- All right.
- And do you know when
- 126
- Christopher Steele was terminated as a source for the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- And I don't know for a fact that he
- was terminated.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So have you reviewed any FBI source
- validation report on Christopher Steele?
- Mr. Comey.
- I have not.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So you don't know whether or not such a
- report would reflect that, as of November 1st of 2016,
- Christopher Steele's reporting in the Steele dossier was
- determined by the FBI to be only, quote, minimally corroborated,
- end quote?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So those things that I've just related to
- you about testimony as I've represented it from Andy McCabe and
- Bill Priestap, and the report as I've represented it to you from
- the FBI, does that cause you any concern about the fact that you
- signed a verified application for a warrant to surveil Carter
- Page when the Steele dossier was only minimally corroborated or
- in its infancy in its corroboration?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know enough or remember enough 2 years
- later to have a reaction.
- I don't know their testimony.
- I
- haven't looked at the thing.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I'm just asking you to accept what I've
- represented as true, and if it is true, does that cause you
- concern?
- Should the FISA court have been granting warrants
- 127
- where the information submitted and verified, in fact, had only
- been minimally corroborated?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I can't answer that because I --
- look,
- I accept what you're saying, but I don't know what else you're
- not telling me that was in the FISA application and what was done.
- I just don't know enough about what happened to offer a view one
- way or the other.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- Well, do you recall that, on
- numerous occasions subsequent to October 21st of 2016, you, in
- your capacity as the FBI Director, referred to the Steele dossier
- as salacious and unverified?
- Mr. Comey.
- of it.
- Yes.
- I don't know that I was referring to all
- Maybe I was, but I had in mind some particular portions
- of it that were salacious and unverified.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- But, again, your characterization of it was
- that it was unverified, even though you had verified it to the
- court?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, it was coming to us from a reliable source
- with a track record, and it's an important thing when you're
- seeking a PC warrant.
- But what I understand by verified is we
- then try to replicate the source information so that it becomes
- FBI investigation and our conclusions rather than a reliable
- source's.
- That's what I understand it, the difference to be.
- And that work wasn't completed by the time I left in May of 2017,
- to my knowledge.
- 128
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Well, when you talk about getting a warrant
- and the PC and the importance there, isn't it important for the
- judge to be able to weigh the reliability and the credibility
- of all the sources for the information, particularly those that
- saw or heard the relevant information that serves as the
- predicate for seeking the warrant?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not necessarily.
- I mean, I can imagine -- I
- think I've dealt with warrants where you just identify that your
- primary CI, or primary source, has subsources, and so long as
- the court is aware of that phenomenon and that you're speaking
- to the reliability of the primary source, to my mind, that's a
- totally legit warrant application.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- comment on it.
- Who is Sally --
- And I don't remember this one well enough to
- I'm thinking about other criminal cases I've
- worked.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Who is Sally Moyer?
- Sally Moyer?
- A lawyer in the General Counsel's Office.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you know if she was involved in the
- preparation of the FISA application?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- If she testified -- and I'll represent to
- you that she testified that the FISA court -- it was 49-51, maybe
- 50-50, that the FISA court would have approved the warrant
- without the Steele dossier.
- If I represent that to you, does
- 129
- that cause you concern that the court was relying on a document
- that was largely unverified and minimally corroborated?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Because it asked me to assume the truth
- of the last part of your question, and I don't know that to be
- the case.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Who -- you've already said you're not sure
- that Christopher Steele was terminated as a source for the FBI,
- correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- If he was terminated as a source for the
- FBI, it would be improper for him to continue to do work for the
- FBI.
- Would you agree with that, as a source?
- Mr. Comey.
- I guess I don't know what "work" means.
- I would
- say in general, but I would imagine there would be circumstances
- where someone -- in fact, I know -- sorry, go ahead.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So let me see if I can break it down.
- So
- does the FBI -- the FBI has an entire manual, don't they, on
- governing the use of confidential human sources?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- All kinds of rules and validations,
- correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And if Christopher Steele was, in fact,
- terminated, it would have been for violating those standards or
- rules or validations?
- 130
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- It could be for
- violating them, but -- I don't know for sure whether it could
- be something else too.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- As you've sat here today -- as you sit here
- today, have you heard anything about the fact that Christopher
- Steele was terminated for leaking information to the press?
- Mr. Comey.
- As I sit here today, since I left the FBI, I've
- read stuff in the media about that.
- I don't believe I had ever
- heard anything about that while I was still at the FBI.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- So, if Christopher Steele -- again,
- I know you don't know whether he had been terminated, but if he
- was and he continued to provide information as a source to the
- FBI, who would have authorized that?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- And it's too much of a
- hypothetical for me to even begin to answer.
- I don't know.
- Because I don't know -- I don't know whether any of the -- the
- preamble to your question is true.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Are you aware that Christopher Steele had
- a relationship -- and by "relationship," I mean a working
- relationship -- with Bruce Ohr?
- Mr. Comey.
- with Bruce Ohr?
- Am I aware that he had a working relationship
- No.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Are you aware of any communications or
- contact between Christopher Steele and Bruce Ohr?
- Mr. Comey.
- I am not aware.
- 131
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Who is Bruce Ohr?
- He's a lawyer for the Department of Justice,
- who I don't know exactly what his job was.
- the Southern District of New York.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I remember him from
- But a DOJ lawyer.
- Would you expect a DOJ lawyer to be part
- of the chain of custody of evidence relating to the Steele dossier
- or a FISA application?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm not sure I know what that means.
- custody with respect to a FISA application.
- Chain of
- With respect to
- the -- I just don't understand that question.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Yeah.
- Should a DOJ lawyer be used as a
- cutout to transfer evidence in connection with a FISA
- application?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Who would have approved that?
- I don't know.
- I keep trying to imagine
- circumstances in which -- I'm not familiar with a circumstance
- in which it's happened, but I don't know enough -Mr. Meadows.
- Are you aware of any other time where a DOJ
- attorney actually acted as a conduit to provide information that
- would go into a FISA application?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- What do you mean by "conduit"?
- Well, with Mr. Ohr, Mr. Steele, it's been
- widely reported -- I'm sure you've read the reports, Director
- Comey, but in testimony, we would have an interaction between
- 132
- Mr. Steele, Mr. Simpson, and Mr. Ohr, and then that information
- was given to two individuals at the FBI,
- .
- Are you aware of any other time where a DOJ attorney
- was used in that manner to give information that ultimately went
- into a FISA application?
- Mr. Comey.
- I can't remember a circumstance like that.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- So the answer is no?
- it's possible.
- Well, yeah, I -- I'm only hesitating because
- I just -- in my personal experience, I've
- not -- I don't remember anything like that.
- Mr. Meadows.
- All right.
- I yield back.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Director Comey, does the FBI and the
- Department of Justice, is there a duty to present exculpatory
- evidence to the FISA court?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know whether there's a legal duty.
- We
- certainly consider it our obligation, because of our trust
- relationship with Federal judges, to present evidence that would
- paint a materially different picture of what we're presenting.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So, if there was -- if the FBI and the
- Department of Justice had information that was contradictory to
- the predicate for which the warrant is being sought before the
- FISA court, you would expect that information to be presented
- to the court so that they could weigh the sufficiency of all of
- the information?
- 133
- Mr. Comey.
- In general, I think that's right.
- You want to
- present to the judge reviewing your application a complete
- picture of the evidence, both its flaws and its strengths.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- What's a defensive briefing?
- In the counterintelligence world, it's a
- mechanism by which the FBI will alert somebody to a
- counterintelligence threat that might tend to defeat the threat.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Are they done for Presidential candidates?
- Not routinely.
- What's routinely done for
- candidates is a general briefing of -- what I meant by "defensive
- briefing" is it's specific to you and threats we see at you.
- With
- candidates, my recollection is we gave a general
- counterintelligence briefing about the threat coming from
- different nations.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall doing that for
- Secretary Clinton when she was the nominee?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- But I assume that someone did.
- Do you know if one was done for
- candidate Trump?
- Mr. Comey.
- Again, I don't know for sure, but I expect it
- was done, just as it was done for Secretary Clinton.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Where would I get that information?
- would I ask, since you don't know?
- Mr. Comey.
- Probably the Director of National
- Intelligence's Office.
- I have some recollection that they
- Who
- 134
- arranged for briefings of the candidates once they were
- nominated, and then part of that briefing would include a threat
- briefing from the FBI about the counterintelligence threat.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So you -- you would not have participated
- in that, is what it sounds like.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I did not.
- That's why I don't have any
- recollection of it, but -Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- But someone from the FBI would have?
- No.
- Do you know who that would have been?
- And it could have been -- let me just add
- this for clarity as you're looking -- there was an FBI senior
- executive who was assigned to the Director of National
- Intelligence as the National Counterintelligence Executive,
- NCIX or something, it may well have been that executive who works
- for the DNI doing it, but who that person -- sorry.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So I'm going to ask the question -- I think
- I know the answer based on what you've just said.
- But at the
- time a defensive briefing was done for candidate Trump, do you
- know if the FBI had any evidence that anyone associated with the
- Trump campaign had colluded or conspired or coordinated with
- Russia in any way?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know the dates, whether -- I don't know
- whether it was before late July when we opened the four
- counterintelligence files, or not.
- And so, if it was after July
- 135
- 29th, then the answer would be, yes, we had some reason to suspect
- that there were Americans who might have assisted the Russians.
- If it was before then, the answer is no.
- I can't remember when the conventions were and that sort
- of thing.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So your testimony here today is that, before
- July 31st of 2016, you had no indication that there was someone
- wanting to intrude into the Trump campaign?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know when I learned anyone wanted to
- intrude into the Trump campaign.
- I knew as of late July that
- the Russians had a massive effort to mess with our democracy
- ongoing.
- I don't think before the end of July I had any
- information that Americans might be assisting that effort.
- Mr. Meadows.
- And so at what point did George Papadopoulos
- come on your radar, Director Comey?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Ms. Bessee.
- Mr. Meadows.
- question.
- Late July, which is what -- oh, sorry.
- So, you're saying late July -Congressman?
- Well, hold on.
- Hear me out.
- Hear the
- Because we've had other testimony that would
- indicate, in a nonclassified setting, that goes right to the
- heart of this matter, even from Mr. Papadopoulos himself.
- So,
- prior to July 31st of 2016, when you opened what is now known
- as, I guess, Crossfire Hurricane, or this investigation, was
- there no effort on part -- on the part of the FBI or no
- 136
- knowledge -- let me correct that -- no knowledge on the part of
- the FBI of anybody, George Papadopoulos or any others, that
- potentially could have been involved in this Russian narrative?
- Mr. Comey.
- This -- Counsel, this I've said publicly, and
- it's been cleared, I think, in my book, so I'm going to say it
- again.
- My recollection is the first information we had,
- certainly the first information that came to my attention that
- Americans might be working with the Russians as part of their
- efforts, came at the end of July -- I think the 31st is too late,
- but the last week of July -- when we received information from
- an allied nation about the conversations their ambassador had
- in England with George Papadopoulos.
- That was the beginning of it, which is the first time we
- turned to trying to figure out whether any Americans were working
- with the Russians.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So any information that was collected prior
- to that would have been done without the FBI's knowledge, without
- your direct knowledge?
- Mr. Comey.
- Is that what you're telling me?
- I don't know what you mean by "any information
- that was collected."
- Mr. Meadows.
- So any counterintelligence collection that
- was done by the FBI would have been done without your knowledge
- prior to the last week of July 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm sorry to keep quibbling, but I don't know
- what you mean by "any information collected."
- The FBI has lots
- 137
- of collection going on all the time.
- Mr. Meadows.
- As it relates to Russian interference and the
- potential use of people within the Trump campaign, was there any
- initiation on the part of the FBI to collect information prior
- to the last week of July of 2016?
- And if so -- well, answer that
- question.
- Mr. Comey.
- So I want to make sure I'm getting it right.
- Was there -Mr. Meadows.
- I want you to get it right, too, because it's
- at conflict with -- what you're saying is at conflict with what
- we've had in other testimony.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- Well, I mean, I can't help that.
- I'll
- tell you what I -- what I know, that, if you're asking, was there
- any information that the FBI had that people associated with the
- Trump campaign might be working with the Russians -- if we had
- any such information before the end of July?
- Is that the
- question?
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, you can answer that question.
- Yeah, I'm not aware of any information before
- the end of July on that subject -Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- Right.
- -- and it was our first information at the end
- of July that prompted the opening of those four files.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So, prior to the end of July, did you direct
- or did you have knowledge of the FBI trying to collect information
- 138
- about the possible Russian-Trump campaign -- and I won't use the
- word "collusion" -- but interactions as it relates to the 2016
- Presidential election?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not that I'm aware of.
- I'm sure there was lots
- of effort to figure out what the heck was going on with the
- Russians because we saw their effort blossom in the middle of
- June.
- But I'm not aware of any information before that at the
- end of July about the possibility that Americans were working
- with the Russians.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- So -That's what led to the opening of those --
- Mr. Meadows.
- So, if Mr. Baker or anyone within the FBI had
- actively engaged in that prior to the last week of July of 2016,
- that would have been without your knowledge?
- Mr. Comey.
- See I don't --
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- That's what you're testifying --
- -- it's possible I knew at the time.
- I don't
- remember any information before the end of July that bore on that
- topic.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Director, we only have a couple minutes before
- it's the Democrats' turn.
- I think during the last time we
- talked -- well, the first time we talked, you said you did not
- talk to Rod Rosenstein after you received word that you had been
- terminated?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's correct.
- 139
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Have you had a conversation with the President
- since you were terminated?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Have you had a conversation with Jeff Sessions?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you have a conversation with Bob Mueller
- from the time you were terminated until the time he was appointed
- special counsel?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you have a conversation with anyone who is
- currently on Special Counsel Mueller's team between the time you
- were terminated and the time special counsel was appointed?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Let me ask one clarifying question, if you
- don't mind.
- Director Comey, you were saying that you had no knowledge
- that Perkins Coie was actually involved with the Democrat
- National Committee and involved in this particular investigation
- that ultimately was initiated.
- Mr. Comey.
- Is that correct?
- I, when I was FBI Director, don't remember ever
- being told anything about Perkins Coie.
- I think I've since read
- stuff in the media, but not when I was Director.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So are you saying that James Baker, your
- general counsel, who received direct information from Perkins
- Coie, did so and conveyed that to your team without your
- 140
- knowledge?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Meadows.
- What do you mean you don't know?
- I mean, did
- he tell you or not?
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, I -- well --
- Mr. Meadows.
- James Baker, we have testimony that would
- indicate that he received information directly from Perkins
- Coie; he had knowledge that they were representing the Democrat
- National Committee and, indeed, collected that information and
- conveyed it to the investigative team.
- received that information from them?
- Did he tell you that he
- And I can give you a name
- if you want to know who he received it from.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember the name Perkins Coie at all.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- What about Michael Sussmann?
- I think I've read that name since then.
- I don't
- remember learning that name when I was FBI Director.
- I was going to ask you a followup, though.
- When you say
- "that information," what do you mean?
- Mr. Meadows.
- Well, it was cyber information as it relates
- to the investigation.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I have some recollection of Baker
- interacting with -- you said the DNC, which sparked my
- recollection -- with the DNC about our effort to get information
- about the Russian hack of them -Mr. Meadows.
- Yeah, that's -- that's not -- that's not what
- 141
- I'm referring to.
- Mr. Comey.
- -- but I don't -- I don't remember anything
- beyond that.
- Mr. Meadows.
- And so I can give you something so that
- you -- your counsel can look at it and refresh your memory,
- perhaps, as we look at that, but I guess my concern is your earlier
- testimony acted like this was news to you that Perkins Coie
- represented the Democratic National Committee, and yet your
- general counsel not only knew that but received information from
- them that was transmitted to other people in the investigative
- team.
- And I find it interesting that the Director would not know
- about that because it is not normal that your general counsel
- would be a custodian of evidence.
- Is that correct?
- Was
- it -- was it normal that people sought out your general counsel
- to make them aware of potential concerns?
- Mr. Comey.
- Is that normal?
- I kind of think it is not as uncommon as you're
- suggesting it is.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Well, Mr. Baker thought it was uncommon.
- He
- said he couldn't ever recall it ever happening before.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know what the "it" is.
- What I'm
- struggling with here is -Mr. Meadows.
- Where someone reaches out to the general
- counsel to give them evidence to say that they want the FBI to
- look into it.
- He couldn't recall another time.
- saying it's not uncommon.
- And you're
- 142
- Mr. Comey.
- Used to happen to me all the time.
- People would
- email me, saying, check this out, check that out, so -Mr. Meadows.
- It may happen with the Director, but it didn't
- happen with the general counsel.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- That surprises me a little bit, but in
- any event, I don't remember him raising it.
- I don't think it's
- particularly noteworthy that he wouldn't tell me, but I don't
- know enough to react to it.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So he says a unique situation that had only,
- in his mind, happened twice in his history with the Bureau, and
- you're saying that it was so unique there that -- yet he did not
- tell you about that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- Is that your testimony?
- No.
- That's not your testimony?
- No.
- Or he didn't tell you?
- No.
- I -- I didn't -- I heard you
- characterizing my testimony as me saying it's so unique.
- I don't
- remember -Mr. Meadows.
- I'm saying he said it was unique; did he tell
- you?
- Mr. Comey.
- testimony.
- I'm struggling because I haven't seen his
- So maybe you could let me look at it during the break,
- and then I can answer on our next round.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Yeah, it's -- it's just a two -- two
- 143
- sentence, and I'll read it to you:
- It was unusual for me to be
- the recipient of information directly from the public or a lawyer
- or anyone else about an allegation of a crime, close quote.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- I mean, I accept your reading of it.
- It
- doesn't change my reaction that it doesn't -- I don't remember
- it.
- Second, it doesn't strike me as extraordinary that, if that
- had happened, he wouldn't give me the particulars.
- Mr. Meadows.
- [Recess.]
- We're out of time.
- 144
- [2:12 p.m.]
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- record.
- It is 2:12.
- Okay.
- We'll go back on the
- I just have a little bit of cleanup from
- the last round, and then I'll pass off to the members.
- BY MS. SACHSMAN GROOMS:
- Q
- In the last round, you were talking about the importance
- of the FBI and DOJ sharing the complete picture of the evidence
- with the FISA court.
- A
- Yes.
- Q
- Okay.
- Is that accurate?
- Does that require every detail of that
- information or a general picture?
- A
- No, it doesn't -- look, I don't think there's a Brady
- obligation that applies in the probable cause presentation
- requirement context or you have to turn over your entire file.
- You have a general duty of candor to the court, so you try to
- make them generally aware of the state of the evidence that
- they're relying upon.
- Q
- And I think this might have gotten a little bit garbled
- through the questions in the last round.
- I think you said that
- it was relevant to you to provide to the court the information
- regarding who was paying Christopher Steele.
- A
- Is that accurate?
- I don't remember whether I focused on it at the time.
- I think it's important that any material issue of bias be
- surfaced for a court about one of your sources, and so I think
- it made sense for the Department of Justice to alert the court
- 145
- that there was politically motivated financial support for this
- effort.
- Q
- And so in order to do that, you thought it was important
- to say the sort of general statement that it had been funded or
- politically motivated in the financing by Republicans or
- Democrats in general?
- A
- Right.
- And the particulars of which Democrats, which
- Republicans, I wouldn't think would be important to the court.
- They'd want to be aware of the general bias, and that's my
- reaction.
- Q
- Okay.
- And I wanted to be really clear on that because,
- in the last round, I think there were a number of questions about
- the particulars of whether you knew or the court knew that the
- DNC had specifically paid Perkins Coie as a law firm and that
- had been the conduit to paying Christopher Steele.
- Did you think the particulars of that were important to
- either your analysis or to the FISA court?
- A
- No, I wouldn't think so.
- It actually doesn't even seem
- important to me now, who cares what particular organizations or
- particular people.
- The court needed to be aware that there's
- a potential for bias because there's a political motivation to
- the support for this effort.
- Q
- Did you then or do you know have any concerns about the
- process that occurred around the Carter Page FISA?
- A
- I do not.
- 146
- Q
- In the last round, I think you were asked a number of
- questions around the timing of the initiation of the Russia
- investigation as it pertains to the connection to U.S. persons.
- And I think during that you said that was towards the end of July
- that that occurred.
- Is that right?
- A
- That's my recollection, yes.
- Q
- I think the underlying questions that came up have to
- do with some actions that were taken by Peter Strzok and by others
- in the time period before the end of July.
- They traveled to
- London, they did investigatory work on a number of different
- things.
- If they were doing that work, is it fair to say that that
- work would not have been part of investigating U.S. persons
- connected to the Russians in that time period prior to the end
- of July?
- A
- I don't know.
- If my recollection is correct that we
- opened the cases on the U.S. persons at the end of July, then
- it's possible there was work being done immediately before that
- to flesh out and understand the information that would then
- predicate the cases that would be opened at the end of July, but
- I don't know that.
- I remember the cases being opened at the end
- of July, and I don't know the nature and quality of any work that
- went on before that.
- Q
- But Peter Strzok and his team were working on larger
- scale Russia things before that, right?
- 147
- A
- Right, to try to understand what are the Russians doing,
- what's the scope of it, what's its intention.
- Q
- And without getting into the particulars of what they
- were doing, those things could have included traveling to foreign
- countries or interviewing witnesses, et cetera?
- A
- Of course.
- I just don't remember it.
- Q
- And then I just had one more thing.
- At the end of the
- last round, there was a long discussion about Mr. Baker and his
- testimony and how he had testified that there was this unique
- instance, and I just wanted to read into the record some of his
- testimony from his second day when he came back, because we saw
- him twice.
- And in that, at the very beginning, he said he wanted to
- bring up this thing that he had not recalled from the previous
- one, and I'm just going to read from the record.
- He said:
- So
- I recalled after, just actually a few days ago, that another
- incident when this time an attorney on behalf of a client came
- to me and wanted -- came specifically to me and wanted to make
- information available to the FBI in the form of electronic media
- that he wanted to get into the -Mr. Jordan asked:
- Mr. Baker said:
- Mr. Jordan said:
- Mr. Baker said:
- Different case or same case?
- Different case.
- Okay.
- Well, a completely different case,
- different attorney, different client, but insisted on meeting
- 148
- only with me or the Director, and then he did not have the material
- with him at the time.
- We had to actually dispatch FBI agents
- to go to a -- from a field office to go to collect this material.
- It was in the -- to the best of my recollection, it was roughly
- in the late summer, fall of 2016 timeframe.
- So I just wanted to clarify that for the record.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Director Comey, thank you for coming,
- and thank you for your service to your country.
- In March 2017, you disclosed in public testimony that the
- FBI had begun an investigation into, quote:
- The Russian
- Government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 Presidential
- election, including, quote, the nature of any links between
- individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian
- Government and whether there was any coordination between the
- campaign and Russia's efforts, close quote.
- When did the FBI first learn of credible evidence that the
- Russian Government was trying to interfere in the 2016
- Presidential election?
- Mr. Comey.
- I believe it was with the release in mid June
- of the DCLeaks and Guccifer 2.0 stolen emails.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mid June 2016?
- Correct.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Were you, at that time, aware of the
- meeting at Trump Tower on June 9th, 2016, between Donald Trump,
- Junior, Paul Manafort, Jared Kushner, and some Russian
- 149
- nationals?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think that's a question that I can't answer
- because it dives into a nonpublic level of detail about the Russia
- investigation.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Okay.
- So in mid June 2016, you first
- learned about the Russian Government's interference or attempt
- to interfere in the 2016 Presidential election.
- When did the
- FBI first learn of credible evidence that individuals associated
- with the Trump campaign may be coordinating with the Russian
- Government?
- Mr. Comey.
- The first I'm aware of that was the end of July
- of 2016, which is what led us to open counterintelligence cases
- on four different Americans.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Okay.
- And what was your reaction to
- this?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember a particular reaction, other
- than that it was going to be very important that we do this in
- a close hold way so that we don't alert the people we're going
- to investigate that we're looking at this and so that the
- investigation is able to be done in a quality way in the middle
- of a political season.
- I remember being concerned about that.
- And then just open minded about whether there's anything to it
- or not.
- I couldn't tell at the beginning whether there was.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Have you ever been affiliated with any
- kind of investigation similar to this where a foreign government
- 150
- may be coordinating or somehow connecting with a political
- campaign of the United States?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not -- I don't remember.
- I've been involved
- with a lot of cases where foreign governments may be connected
- in an illicit way to public figures.
- FBI's counterintelligence work.
- That's a big part of the
- I don't remember a campaign
- context.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Got it.
- Has the FBI ever
- investigated the potential coordination between a Presidential
- campaign and a foreign adversary before?
- Ms. Bessee.
- Congressman, to the extent it goes to
- any -- any investigative activity that the FBI may be
- investigating, the witness will not be able to answer to either
- confirm or deny.
- Do you want to ask that question in general?
- I don't know how you ask that hypothetically, but -Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- No, this is about past, not the
- current Mueller investigation or any current investigation.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember being involved in any such
- investigation prior to 2016.
- [Comey Exhibit No. 3
- Was marked for identification.]
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Okay.
- I would like to introduce the
- following document from the Baker transcript, page 72.
- This is
- the transcript of former FBI general counsel James Baker's
- October 18th, 2018, interview with the committees.
- 151
- It begins, question:
- And what was the initial
- concern/issue raised in the investigation?
- Answer:
- Well, the initial -- the initial issue was whether
- there had been interactions of an unlawful nature or that were
- a threat to the national security or both in connection with
- the -- at least some people in the now President's campaign with
- the Russian Federation, witting or unwitting.
- Question:
- Answer:
- And these were related to George Papadopoulos?
- Yes.
- Question:
- Information that he conveyed, yes.
- Can you confirm that the initial allegation that
- started the Russia counterintelligence investigation had
- nothing to do with the Steele dossier?
- And there's an interruption by the counsel to caution him
- to answer in an unclassified setting.
- And then he answers, answer:
- Based on the information that
- I have seen in the public domain, I think I can answer it.
- And
- I think the answer is it did not have to do with the dossier.
- Director Comey, do you agree with Mr. Baker that the initial
- allegation in the FBI's counterintelligence operation into the
- Trump campaign's potential coordination with the Russian
- Government, quote/unquote, had nothing to do with the Steele
- dossier?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- That's correct.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- And do you agree the initial
- allegation was actually related to information that George
- 152
- Papadopolous conveyed?
- Mr. Comey.
- That he conveyed to a diplomat that was then
- conveyed to the U.S. several months after he first conveyed it,
- yes.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Thank you.
- Let me go into another topic.
- So earlier in these
- proceedings, I had the chance to question Peter Strzok about
- leaks from the FBI, and we had this exchange.
- This is me asking the question:
- Could you explain to me
- a little bit about Director Comey's fear of leaks from the New
- York field office and how that, in your view, affected the
- revelation of the warrant for Weiner's laptop?
- Answer from Strzok:
- You have to ask Director Comey that.
- I think there was discussion I remember and particularly some
- of it was in the context of reporting from Mr. Giuliani and others
- about connections to New York.
- So let me just ask you what I asked him.
- How concerned were
- you about leaks from the New York field office to Rudy Giuliani
- or other media personalities in 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- I was concerned that there appeared to be in
- the media a number of stories that might have been based on
- communications reporters or nonreporters like Rudy Giuliani were
- having with people in the New York field office.
- In particular,
- in I want to say mid October, maybe a little bit later, Mr.
- Giuliani was making statements that appeared to be based on his
- 153
- knowledge of workings inside the FBI New York.
- And then my
- recollection is there were other stories that were in the same
- ballpark that gave me a general concern that we may have a leak
- problem -- unauthorized disclosure problem out of New York, and
- so I asked that it be investigated.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Oh, okay.
- So the investigation began
- at some point after you asked for the investigation to start?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think sometime in October, maybe they didn't
- get going on it until November, an effort led by our internal
- affairs component, as I understand it, began to try and
- understand, do we have leaks and what are they?
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- And to your knowledge, has anyone been
- held accountable for these purported leaks?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not to my knowledge.
- The investigation
- ultimately led to disciplining of FBI Deputy Director McCabe
- because the investigation turned up communications that he had
- apparently authorized about a pending investigation of the
- Clinton Foundation, but I don't know beyond that.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- How about anything related to the New
- York field office?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- I never got a report out on that
- before I was fired.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Director Comey.
- I see.
- Okay.
- Here's the concern,
- If no one's been held accountable, especially
- from the New York field office, and if there are leaks from the
- 154
- New York field office to potentially people like Rudy Giuliani,
- who's the current lawyer for the President, then they have an
- active window into the investigation of them, and that's why I
- think a lot of people are concerned about whether that
- investigation concluded or not.
- Who would we talk to about this particular issue if we wanted
- to learn the status of that investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, the FBI, whoever you normally talk to
- there, would be the place to start.
- in a position to comment or not.
- I don't know whether they're
- I don't know what its status
- was when I was fired in May.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Okay.
- Next topic.
- Got it.
- The Washington Post reported
- previously and The Atlantic confirmed that former acting FBI
- Director McCabe opened an obstruction of justice investigation
- into the President after your firing.
- Prior to that, had an
- obstruction of justice investigation been opened into the
- President or other senior officials with regard to Michael Flynn?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not to my knowledge, no.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Okay.
- I was reading in your book that
- on February 14th, 2017, after your conversation with the
- President, you then returned to your car and then emailed your
- colleagues about this particular conversation with regard to Mr.
- Flynn.
- What came of that at that point?
- Did you hold off on a
- 155
- potential investigation into obstruction of justice or what was
- your -- what was your thought process there?
- Because I know that
- you also said in the book that you didn't know who to go to, you
- couldn't go to Sessions and the Deputy Attorney General
- was -- I'll let you answer.
- Mr. Comey.
- I met with the senior leadership team of the
- FBI, shared with them a memo that I created about the
- February 14th conversation, and we debated what to do.
- And
- because we didn't feel we could go to Attorney General Sessions
- because he was about to be recused, there was no Deputy Attorney
- General because Mr. Rosenstein had not been confirmed yet, and
- we didn't want to do anything that might chill the investigative
- team.
- We decided that we would simply hold on to it, keep the
- information close hold until the Department of Justice sorted
- out how they were going to supervise this and then we could bring
- them into it and figure out what should we do to investigate this.
- And so that's why I say, to my knowledge, no investigation was
- opened on the obstruction of justice at that point.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- We held it, and we actually never got to the
- chance -- the Department of Justice didn't get to the point of
- figuring out how they were going to supervise the investigation
- until after I was fired.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Why -- for a layperson who may not
- understand why you even thought about this amounting to potential
- 156
- obstruction of justice, can you walk us through that?
- Why is
- this something that might cause the concern about an allegation
- of obstruction of justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, the President of the United States asked
- me, directed me in my apprehension of it to drop a criminal
- investigation, and so that is an extraordinary use of power and
- could amount to obstruction of justice.
- That is a corrupt
- endeavor to impede the administration of justice.
- I don't know
- what the answer is to the ultimate question, but given that, it
- was something that needed to be investigated.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- And is the reason why you say "could"
- because you need to get to the intent behind why the investigation
- is being asked to be dropped?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Okay.
- You know, we are going to be
- in the majority in the House starting in January, and so one of
- the questions that folks like myself have is, stepping back for
- a second, you know, you were there for quite a while during the
- Russia investigation, from end of July 2016 through the time that
- you were let go in May 2017.
- So almost 1 year.
- You learned a
- lot probably during that time.
- What lessons did you learn during that time that would
- inform us as we conduct oversight, not necessarily from the
- standpoint of a forensic criminal investigation, but from the
- standpoint of protecting our democracy?
- 157
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know that I can give you a thoughtful
- enough answer sitting here after 5 hours of questions.
- I'd have
- to think about that one because it's an important question I would
- not want to answer causally.
- check on that one.
- So I'm going to have to take a rain
- Yeah.
- Maybe the one thing is, as you exercise incredibly important
- oversight power, I said earlier, I think this branch of
- government has neglected its authorities and needs to assert its
- authorities, but in doing that, to be sensitive about the need
- to coordinate with ongoing investigations so nothing happens to
- affect or to cast doubt on the credibility of an ongoing
- investigation.
- Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
- Very good.
- Let me just make sure I
- don't have a final question here for you.
- I think that's it for me.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Deutch.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
- Mr. Comey, thanks for being here.
- Nice to see
- you again.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Deutch.
- You too.
- Just one quick followup to what you just said
- that this branch that has neglected its responsibilities
- shouldn't act in a way that would cast doubt on any of the
- investigations.
- You're referring -- are you referring to the
- actions of this branch in recent days or years?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not in the second part of that sentence; in the
- 158
- first part, yes, generally.
- But what I meant by the second one
- is special counsel's investigation is going to be ongoing, I
- would assume, when the majority changes, and I think it's just
- very important for whoever is in the majority to be sure to be
- sensitive to the need to balance oversight with an ongoing
- criminal investigation.
- Mr. Deutch.
- That's what I meant by that.
- I appreciate that.
- I wanted to pick up on this last line of questions.
- There
- were press reports that on May 10th, 2017, the day after the
- President fired you, he met with Russia's foreign minister and
- the Russian ambassador in the Oval Office, and told them, quote:
- I just fired the head of the FBI.
- He was crazy, a real nut job.
- I face great pressure because of Russia.
- That's taken off,
- closed quote.
- Then the next day, President Trump stated during a
- nationally televised interview with Lester Holt that, quote,
- "this Russia thing," close quote, was on his mind when he decided
- to fire you.
- And then during your June 2017 Senate Intelligence
- Committee hearing, you were asked why you believe President Trump
- fired you, and you responded, and I quote you:
- know for sure.
- I guess I don't
- I believe I take the President at his word that
- I was fired because of the Russia investigation.
- Something
- about the way I was conducting it the President felt created
- pressure on him that he wanted to relieve, closed quote.
- 159
- Do you still believe that the President fired you because
- of the Russia investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think on balance that I do.
- The only
- hesitation I have is I've seen the President since saying other
- things that it wasn't because of that, and so I'm in a position
- where I can't know for sure.
- Mr. Deutch.
- When you stated, "I take the President at his
- word," were you referring to either his meeting with the Russians
- or his interview with Lester Holt?
- Mr. Comey.
- Both, but more so to the Holt interview because
- it was on the record.
- I don't know whether the Washington -- I
- think it was The Washington Post reporting on that encounter with
- the Russian ambassador and foreign minister was accurate, so I
- tend to put more weight on his own words speaking to Lester Holt.
- [Comey Exhibit No. 4
- Was marked for identification.]
- Mr. Deutch.
- I'd like to introduce exhibit 4.
- Baker 10/3/18 transcript, pages 147 to 148.
- It's the
- That's the
- transcript of former FBI general counsel James Baker's
- October 3rd interview with the committee.
- It reads, question:
- Can you explain what the atmosphere
- was like at the FBI after the President fired Comey?
- Answer:
- words.
- I'm not sure that I can reduce it to one or two
- It was an, I guess, horrible atmosphere.
- It was shock,
- dismay, confusion at least initially that night and then -- and
- 160
- then a sense of resolve that came pretty quickly as well to
- continue the FBI's mission.
- And as I was saying earlier to the
- Congressman, make sure that we were all adhering to our oaths
- to the constitution and executing our responsibilities.
- Question:
- Was there concern at the FBI that the President
- had fired Director Comey because he was trying to obstruct the
- FBI's investigation into the Russia matter?
- Answer:
- Yes.
- Question:
- Answer:
- Yes.
- Question:
- Was that concern shared by others?
- Answer:
- I think so, yes.
- Question:
- Answer:
- Was that the concern you had?
- Who?
- Who else?
- The leadership of the FBI, so the acting director.
- I can't remember if we appointed an acting deputy director
- immediately.
- The heads of the national security apparatus, the
- national security folks within the FBI, the people that were
- aware of the underlying investigation and who had been focused
- on it.
- And, Director Comey, did you share Mr. Baker's concern that
- the President had fired you because he wanted to obstruct or
- impede the FBI's investigation into the Russia matter?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Deutch.
- I did because of his words.
- And does it surprise you to hear that the
- leadership, the national security officials at the FBI were
- 161
- concerned that President Trump fired you in an attempt to
- obstruct the FBI's investigation into the Russia matter?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, it doesn't surprise me at all.
- Mr. Deutch.
- Turning just for a moment before I wrap up to
- summer -- earlier summer of 2018, July 29th, in fact, the
- President tweeted, and I quote:
- There is no collusion.
- The
- Robert Mueller rigged witch hunt headed now by 17, increased from
- 13, including an Obama White House lawyer, angry Democrats, was
- started by a fraudulent dossier paid for by crooked Hillary and
- the DNC.
- Therefore, the witch hunt is an illegal scam.
- Mr. Comey, was the FBI's investigation into Russian
- interference and potential coordination with the Trump campaign
- started by a fraudulent dossier?
- Mr. Comey.
- It was not.
- Mr. Deutch.
- Mr. Comey.
- Can you explain how you know that?
- Because I know what the basis was for starting
- the investigation.
- It was the information we'd received about
- a conversation that a Trump foreign -- campaign foreign policy
- adviser had with an individual in London about stolen emails that
- the Russians had that would be harmful to Hillary Clinton.
- It
- was weeks or months later that the so-called Steele dossier came
- to our attention.
- Mr. Deutch.
- Was there anything illegal or improper about
- the way the FBI started the Trump-Russia investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- And, in fact, I would hope that
- 162
- Republicans and Democrats would agree that we would have been
- derelict not to investigate.
- Mr. Deutch.
- again I quote:
- On May 20th, 2018, President Trump tweeted,
- I hereby demand, and will do so officially
- tomorrow, that the Department of Justice look into whether or
- not the FBI/DOJ infiltrated or surveilled the Trump campaign for
- political purposes, and if any such demands or requests were made
- by people within the Obama administration.
- Director Comey, do you believe the FBI or DOJ ever
- investigated the Trump campaign for political purposes?
- Mr. Comey.
- I not only don't believe it, I know it not to
- be true.
- Mr. Deutch.
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm sorry, would you repeat that?
- I know it not to be true.
- I know that we never
- investigated the Trump campaign for political purposes.
- Mr. Deutch.
- Did President Obama or anyone in his
- administration ever make a demand or a request the FBI or DOJ
- infiltrate or surveil the Trump campaign?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Deutch.
- No, not to my knowledge.
- And, Mr. Comey, how would you have reacted if
- you had received a request of this nature from any
- administration?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, they wouldn't -- no one would dare ask
- me or anybody else at the FBI that because they know the reaction,
- which would be not only no, but hell no.
- 163
- Mr. Deutch.
- In the tweet I read, President Trump appears
- to be directly demanding that the Department of Justice launch
- an investigation into his political opponents.
- You've already
- stated the answer to a request like that would be hell no.
- And
- why is that, Mr. Comey?
- Mr. Comey.
- Because that represents the final corruption
- and destruction of our system of justice.
- If we start
- investigating people by fiat from the leader because of their
- political affiliation, what are we anymore, which is why it has
- been so dispiriting not to see both sides of the political aisle
- react to this with shock and loud voices.
- are.
- It's just not who we
- I don't care who the President is, it's not who we are.
- Mr. Deutch.
- I appreciate that.
- My final question just refers to something you said earlier
- today.
- You said that there's no crime of collusion as it's used,
- I think, in terms of conspiracy or aiding and abetting.
- I
- haven't heard the term collusion in my years at Justice.
- This investigation or I would say just to try to make this
- easier for you to answer, given your description of collusion,
- collusion would not be the basis for an investigation conducted
- by the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- Right, because it's not a thing in the criminal
- statutes, that I understand at least.
- It would be investigating
- where anyone conspired with the Russians or aided and abetted
- the Russians.
- 164
- Mr. Deutch.
- Thank you, Mr. Comey.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Good afternoon.
- I appreciate it.
- Good afternoon, everyone.
- Mr. Comey, before we begin, I wanted to ask a question from
- the last round just as a point of clarification.
- In the
- discussion about why you put -- in late October made an
- announcement again about the Hillary Clinton email
- investigation, you said it was for consistency.
- What precluded
- or what made you believe or the FBI not believe that allowing
- the public to be aware of the investigation of Russia and possible
- interference or aiding and abetting by Trump aides in his
- campaign would justify that as well?
- Mr. Comey.
- Why wouldn't we announce --
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- Why wouldn't you have announced that?
- Well, for a number of reasons.
- It
- would -- there wouldn't be any policy exception that would permit
- it; that is, it would jeopardize the ongoing investigation and
- it would be brutally unfair because we didn't know whether we
- had anything.
- We literally just started.
- And as I said, by the
- time I was fired, we still hadn't come to a conclusion.
- And so
- we'd be revealing something that was inherently misleading and
- jeopardizing our ability to investigate by revealing it.
- It's for that reason -- I actually don't remember any
- discussion about whether to reveal that we had these classified
- counterintelligence files.
- Instead, what we debated a lot was
- should we tell the American people that the Russians are messing
- 165
- with our election more broadly.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- But you stated in the last round that when
- you made the announcement in October about new emails, you didn't
- know what it would conclude either.
- So why would you make the
- announcement if you had no idea what those second round of emails
- might lead you to believe?
- Mr. Comey.
- I see.
- Because we had already, not only told
- the world about the Clinton Foundation -- excuse me, the Clinton
- investigation at its conclusion, we had then vigorously
- defended, in my view, rightly, the result and told people to move
- on, this was done well, this was done competently and honestly,
- you can trust your FBI.
- Now I know that's not true, and so that leaves me with two
- choices:
- I can either let the American people continue to rely
- upon something I know not to be true -Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- That the case is done, you can move on.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- Which part was not true?
- Okay.
- That the case was done.
- -- or I can tell Congress that what I said
- repeatedly is no longer true.
- Both of those are bad options.
- One, in my view, is catastrophic, that concealing from the
- American people and Congress that what we told you over and over
- and over again in the summer is no longer true would be
- devastating to the organizations.
- Now, reasonable people can
- disagree about that, but those were the two choices.
- And so it
- 166
- wasn't we were beginning a new investigation; we were restarting
- an investigation that the whole world knew about and was relying
- upon what were now false statements about it being completed.
- And then obviously critical to that was my troop saying, not only
- can we not finish this before the election, the result may change,
- because in this huge trove of emails appear to be emails that
- were missing from her Blackberry that we never found before.
- And so given that constellation of circumstances, I really
- didn't feel like I had any choice.
- I had to choose speaking over
- concealing.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Okay.
- Thank you.
- Thank you for that
- clarification.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Good question.
- What I wanted to ask a few questions about
- the body of evidence you're aware of related to President Trump
- and obstruction of justice.
- Higher Loyalty:
- And I'm referring to your book, A
- Truth, Lies in Leadership.
- And on page 271,
- you write in the first full paragraph, I'm quoting:
- I also don't
- know whether the special counsel will find criminal wrongdoing
- by the President or others who have not been charged as of this
- writing.
- One of the pivotal questions I presume that Bob
- Mueller's team is investigating is whether or not, in urging me
- to back the FBI off our investigation of his national security
- advisor and firing me, President Trump was attempting to obstruct
- justice, which is a Federal crime.
- It's certainly possible
- 167
- there is at least circumstantial evidence in that regard, and
- there may be more that the Mueller team will assemble, end of
- quote.
- So I guess my first question was, were you aware of
- individuals charged -- that were charged as of that writing?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think I meant -- I can't think of
- anybody I was thinking of, if that makes sense.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- Right.
- I wasn't -- I don't -- maybe that's an awkward
- sentence construction, but I don't think I was trying to carve
- somebody out.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- But were you, in your mind, thinking of
- people who you believe would probably be charged but had not been
- charged as yet?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think so.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Okay.
- And what were the circumstantial
- evidence that you were referring to?
- Mr. Comey.
- That the President of the United States asked
- me to drop a pending criminal investigation.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- And that's --
- And did it after clearing the room and removing
- my boss and the Vice-President of the United States from the room
- in order to speak to me alone.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Okay.
- And those were the only pieces of
- circumstantial evidence that you had?
- 168
- Mr. Comey.
- That's all I can think of right now.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Okay.
- And do you consider President Trump
- asking you to back off the FBI -- back the FBI off of investigating
- then national security advisor the circumstantial evidence,
- right?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, a piece of it, yes, and the manner in which
- it was done.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- And the manner in which it was done.
- Do you consider President Trump firing you a circumstantial
- evidence of attempting to obstruct justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- Potentially, and that would require a lot of
- facts I can't see, so I wouldn't give you as strong an answer
- there.
- It's potentially circumstantial evidence.
- The first
- bit, the Oval Office conversation is circumstantial evidence.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- So we've talked about the Oval Office
- incident as well as your firing as potential circumstantial
- evidence.
- Can you identify anything else outside of those
- things that's circumstantial or potentially direct evidence of
- President Trump attempting to obstruct justice, including public
- information and recent events?
- Mr. Comey.
- Ms. Bessee.
- witness said.
- I don't think that's for me to answer.
- Okay.
- I was going to say the same thing the
- To the extent, because he's also a potential
- witness for an ongoing investigation, he may be limited to
- what -- or he may not be able to answer the question.
- 169
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Would he be able to answer the question
- related to those things that have occurred after his firing?
- Ms. Bessee.
- To the extent that he has knowledge of them
- based on his -- because he's a potential witness -- it depends
- on the question, so maybe if you ask the question we can assess -Ms. Plaskett.
- So the question would be, can you identify
- any circumstantial or direct evidence that you may have obtained
- after being fired which would lead you to believe that the
- President has obstructed justice?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think I can answer that for this reason,
- that I'm not aware of any evidence that might be responsive to
- that question that's not in the public realm.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- Right.
- And so the next part of it would require me to
- characterize tweets and statements and things, which I don't
- think I can do.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- You can't characterize tweets?
- I
- characterize them.
- Mr. Comey.
- That's what I'm saying.
- You're as qualified
- to do it as I, and so I don't think I ought to be in a position
- of trying to characterize things that are publicly available.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Well, I think because of your years of
- experience having prosecuted people, you would be able to
- identify what a jury would find as circumstantial better than
- most of us in this room.
- But if not, we can move on.
- 170
- Mr. Comey.
- But I'm a potential witness.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- Got it.
- So I just think it's a slippery slope for me
- to start characterizing public information.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Sure.
- You stated that attempting to
- obstruct justice, even if it does not work, is still a Federal
- crime.
- Would you agree?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's my recollection.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- And there's been a growing narrative amongst
- conservative media that obstruction of justice is a mere process
- crime, that even if President Trump did obstruct justice, it
- really isn't that big of a deal if Special Counsel Mueller can't
- also demonstrate that he committed the ostensible underlying
- crime of colluding with or aiding and abetting with Russia to
- interfere with the election.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you agree with that?
- No, and I've been hearing that for 30 years.
- Crimes that involve investigation -- that involve attacks on the
- criminal justice system, perjury, false statements, obstruction
- of justice, jury tampering, are things -- are statutes that
- Congress passed to protect the core of this country's rule of
- law, and so I never think of them as process crimes.
- They're
- serious and important Federal crimes.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- And how important do you think it would be
- if the President of the United States attempted to impede a
- criminal investigation into his associates or his campaign?
- 171
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't think I'm comfortable answering with
- respect to the President, but I don't have to because I can answer
- generally.
- I think it's very serious when anybody endeavors to
- obstruct the due administration of justice.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Well, if it was -- anybody would be a very
- serious thing, but how much more serious would that issue be to
- the functioning of our democracy if it was, in fact, the
- President?
- Mr. Comey.
- opinion.
- You know, I'm worried about offering that
- I think it's very important that all of us in senior
- leadership positions in the government uphold our oaths, and
- critical to the President's oaths is to ensure that the laws are
- faithfully executed.
- So if someone who's taken that oath is
- obstructing justice, as we learned 45 years ago in Watergate,
- it's an incredibly important offense.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- And does that present a national security
- threat?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's a hard one to answer.
- It would depend
- upon who it is and the circumstances and whatnot.
- I don't think
- I can answer that in the abstract.
- Ms. Plaskett.
- Mr. Comey.
- Okay.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Sheila Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey, it looks
- like we're going to be doing a bionic, I may be talking really
- fast and meteoric, and so I may be looking to put things in the
- 172
- record and not really seeking a question.
- So let me just do this.
- On the overall obstruction of
- justice, New York Times article that indicated they had it
- however here:
- Mr. Comey's firing was more unusual and important
- because he was overseeing the Russia investigation, a certain
- number of experts said.
- Questions about what will happen with
- that investigation now that he is gone are the main reason they
- said his firing is likely to be highly significant, with
- long-term ramifications for policy and government.
- These
- experts came from the University of Chicago, Denver, Harvard,
- Maryland, University of Virginia, Yale University.
- Do you, frankly, think that your firing without
- determination of why will have long-term policy and governmental
- impact?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- It'll depend upon whether the
- law is able to work as intended and the special counsel can
- complete his work.
- I don't know where he'll end up, so it's hard
- for me to answer at this point.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Let me answer -- or ask some questions
- regarding the inspector general's report.
- I think it was around
- the 26th that -- September 26 that you received some indication
- about the Weiner laptop, 2016.
- And it started in New York, and
- people started to see emails flourishing, and FBI agents thought
- it was crucial -- I'm looking for my materials here -- thought
- it was crucial that you -- that they begin to investigate.
- And
- 173
- it seems that there was some suggestion in the IG's report of
- a question whether there was unnecessary delay.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, I remember that.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- But it seems that he concluded that no
- emails, texts, anything, conversations he could find to suggest
- that it was purposeful delay, and I think that's important to
- be on the record.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you agree with that?
- I agree.
- I've seen -- I didn't realize until
- I read the IG's report that chronology, because it wasn't
- presented to me for decision until the end of October, but there
- was reason to believe it would have been ready for decision
- earlier than that.
- But I never saw any indication that that was
- intentional delay.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- comment.
- So let me read this last text or last
- As I said, I'm going to go as quickly as I can.
- The last paragraph on that particular section regarding
- Mr. Weiner's laptop:
- Comey, Lynch, and Yates face difficult
- choices in October 2016.
- However, we found it extraordinary
- that Comey assessed that it was best that the FBI Director not
- speak directly with the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney
- General about how best to navigate this most important decision
- and mitigate the resulting harms, and that Comey's decisions
- resulted in the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General
- concluding that it would be counterproductive to speak directly
- with the FBI Director.
- We believe that open and candid
- 174
- communications among leaders in the department and its
- components is essential for the effective functioning of the
- department.
- Without you suggesting what their thoughts were, upon
- reflection, because this, as I started out, was an election of
- the leaders of the free world, one of them was going to be elected.
- And I know earlier in his report you had -- it was an assumption
- that Secretary Clinton would win, and I don't consider that a
- factual basis to not do something, and then the idea that you
- didn't want to be in the -- in the position of concealing.
- Upon reflection or not reflection, why did you not speak
- to or find it important to speak to both the deputy and the
- Attorney General so there could have been a collaborative
- decision on what to do?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's a really good question.
- My thinking at
- the time was, I need to give them the chance to take this decision
- from me, but I also need to give them the chance to avoid it,
- and so that's what I did.
- I told them, I think I -- I had my
- staff tell them -- I think I need to tell Congress about this,
- but I'd be happy to talk to you.
- And they came back saying, we
- think it's a bad idea, but we don't want to talk to him.
- I read that -- I may be wrong, but I read that as them saying,
- over to you Jim.
- And this drives my wife crazy that I was willing
- to take that hit, but I thought it was important that if they
- don't want to be involved in the decision, that I make the
- 175
- decision.
- Now, what I maybe should have done was say, no, back
- to you Loretta and Sally, but that felt cowardly to me at the
- time.
- And if I were to live life over again, I might have marched
- across the street and said, hey, you folks see it differently
- than I and why, instead of the way I approached it.
- But I gave
- them the chance and they said, don't need to talk to you.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- So we look at good practices, can we leave
- it on the point that, yes, march across the street and you sit
- down as a group and make the final decision?
- Would that have
- been, you know, without saying it was cowardly, without saying
- they didn't want to do it, but that's sort of DOJ, because you
- were having something so much so at a heightened level that that
- would have been the better practice?
- Mr. Comey.
- Maybe, but I actually don't want to -- I really
- like those two people.
- I don't let them too much off the hook.
- They're the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General of
- the United States for heaven's sakes.
- They know that I think
- I have to do this thing, so call me up and talk to me about it,
- give me your views of it, you're my boss.
- But instead, they
- communicate back saying over to you, Jim.
- So I'm not sure I want to take all the fault for that.
- agree with you.
- I
- I think the best practice would have been the
- three of us to sit down and talk it through.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Okay.
- I will -- the point behind that
- was that maybe the October 5th did not need to be announced only
- 176
- primarily because you were just in the midst of your October
- 28 -- just in the midst of the investigation, and I don't think
- you would have been considered a concealer if you were just in
- the midst of the investigation.
- But let me quickly go to this issue here.
- Let me raise this
- question, and then I have about 1 minute and 50 seconds or
- something to ask these questions here.
- Director Comey, in your June 8, 2017, written testimony to
- the Senate Intelligence Committee, you wrote about a
- February 14, 2017, meeting with President Trump in which he
- stated, quote, I hope you can see your way clear to letting this
- go, to letting Flynn go.
- He's a good guy.
- I hope you can let
- this go.
- You then described your reaction, quote, I had understood
- that the President to be requesting that we drop any
- investigation of Flynn in connection with false statements about
- his conversations with the Russian ambassador in December.
- Director Comey, is that still your understanding?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- [Comey Exhibit No. 5
- Was marked for identification.]
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- And I'd like to introduce the following
- document as exhibit 5, which is pages 90 to 91 of the transcript
- from former FBI general counsel James Baker's October 18, 2018,
- interview with the committee.
- 177
- And just in going to that earlier comment, you obviously
- you see now, today, of the final results of Director Flynn in
- terms of the Mueller indictment on the very facts that you were
- dealing with, and I just want to put that on the record.
- I would like to introduce the following exhibit, No. 5, and
- which is pages 90 to 91 of the transcript from former FBI general
- counsel James Baker's October 18, 2018, interview with the
- committee.
- It reads:
- Did you also have concerns that the
- statements by the President were requesting that the FBI drop
- the investigation of General Flynn?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm sorry, I thought you were reading his
- statement.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- The answer is yes.
- Forgive me.
- And why would it be concerning if the President asked the
- FBI to drop the investigation of his national security advisor?
- You said:
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, it's an -Jim Baker said.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Jim Baker.
- It's an investigation, period.
- It's the President, I mean,
- I guess you would say breaking the norm in that sense, the
- President actually intervening -Let me be very clear.
- I'm reading Jim Baker's comments.
- Thank you very much.
- -- intervening while it's going on with respect to a
- particular investigation.
- 178
- It also goes back to what we talked about earlier.
- It has
- to -- it's not just some investigation; it's an investigation
- that is also related to the investigation -- or to Russia -- to
- the Russia matter that we were investigating, right?
- So it was
- not a free-standing independent investigation; it was something
- related to these other things.
- So it was alarming in that regard
- too.
- Do you share Mr. Baker's concerns about the President asking
- the FBI to drop the investigation of his national security
- advisor?
- Do you agree that the Flynn investigation was related
- to the Russia matter?
- Mr. Comey.
- I do.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- The transcript continues:
- Is it
- alarming even if the FBI has no intention of dropping the
- investigation?
- Well, we didn't have any intention of dropping the
- investigation, so -- but it's alarming nonetheless, yes, because
- we'll know at a minimum the existence of the fact of the -- at
- a bare minimum, the fact of this conversation.
- Just again, looks
- bad if it were ever to -- if it was ever -- would look bad if
- it was ever to become public, because it looks like the
- President's trying to put his finger on the scale to cause the
- investigation to go into a particular way, and that would hurt
- the FBI's credibility, reputation for independence.
- very alarming.
- That was
- 179
- Question:
- You said it would look like that to the public.
- Did you believe that that's what actually was going on?
- The answer:
- the scale.
- The President was trying to put his finger on
- Yes, that's what I thought was going on.
- Do you agree with Mr. Baker's assessment that President
- Trump was trying to put his finger on the scale by asking you
- to drop Flynn's investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Potentially.
- As I said earlier, I would want
- to understand more about the President's intent before I reached
- a conclusion.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- And so you think potentially, not
- affirmatively?
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, it would look like the President was
- trying to put his finger on the scale, but I understand the term
- "put his finger on the scale" to mean obstructing justice.
- And
- as I said earlier, I'd want to know more of the facts, which I'm
- sure the special counsel's work to understand, about the
- President's intent before I reached that conclusion.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- And you don't believe that the statement
- on public television "it was a Russia thing" is an affirmative
- statement without qualification by the President of the United
- States?
- It was a Russia thing that I fired Mr. Comey on.
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, I do.
- And the only thing I added, though,
- is since then he has said other things trying to, it seems, walk
- that back.
- And so again, I rely on his words.
- I saw him say
- 180
- that, but I've since seen him try to say other things.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Well, you're a quintessential law
- enforcement officer and you know that is probably the tendency
- of any witness to walk back.
- Mr. Comey.
- Is that not true?
- No, the tendency of this witness is trying to
- be fair and open minded.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- No, I'm projecting it to the President.
- Anybody who's being asked about something they said and it gets
- a lot of fury, it is a tendency to walk back.
- Mr. Comey.
- Well, it depends upon the person.
- Some people
- will try to walk back things, others not.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Were you also worried that it would hurt
- the FBI's credibility and reputation for independence?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Ms. Jackson Lee.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
- Mr. Comey, I'm Jamie Raskin from Maryland.
- I
- want to start, Director Comey, with your written testimony of
- the Senate Intelligence Committee on June 8th of 2017, when you
- wrote about your famous dinner with President Trump at the White
- House on January 27th.
- And you said that the President was
- trying to, quote, create some sort of patronage relationship.
- And at one point he said to you, quote, I need loyalty.
- loyalty.
- Is that your recollection?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- I expect
- 181
- Mr. Raskin.
- Okay.
- On pages 237 and 238 of your book, A
- Higher Loyalty, you also recount your dinner with President Trump
- and your reaction to this request.
- At the bottom of page 237
- you write, quote, to my mind, the demand was like Sammy the Bull's
- Cosa Nostra induction ceremony with Trump in the role of the
- family boss asking me if I have what it takes to be a made man.
- I did not and would never.
- Can you just elaborate on why that was the first thing that
- came into your mind, this comparison to a made boss ceremony for
- La Cosa Nostra?
- Mr. Comey.
- It was an impression that kept popping into my
- head when I interacted with President Trump, and particularly
- it started when I watched him interact as President-elect that
- first week of January at Trump Tower, and I kept trying to push
- it away because it seemed too dramatic.
- But his leadership
- style -- I'm not trying to suggest he's out robbing banks -- but
- his leadership style reminded me of that of a mafia boss, of a
- Cosa Nostra boss, because it's all about me, what you can do for
- me, it's all about your loyalty to me.
- values or institutional values.
- It's not about any higher
- It's about how are you feeding
- me the boss, how are you taking care of me the boss.
- Mr. Raskin.
- And that was novel to your experience in terms
- of dealing with Presidents of the United States?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- I dealt closely with three, and this
- was the first time I'd had that reaction.
- 182
- Mr. Raskin.
- Okay.
- And just to be clear, what is your
- loyalty to, as the director of the FBI or a law enforcement
- official?
- Mr. Comey.
- To a variety of external values, most
- importantly, the Constitution and the laws of the United States,
- and then to the regulations that restrict and govern the FBI,
- and also to the values that make the FBI such an important part
- of American life:
- integrity, independence, competence, and
- fairness.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Has anything happened since these events that
- have changed your perception of the President's modus operandi
- in terms of his dealing with his subordinates and people who work
- for the government?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- I think people who thought maybe I was
- being dramatic have come to believe that maybe I wasn't being
- dramatic in that observation.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Yeah.
- How many -- have you ever prosecuted
- mafia bosses?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- How many?
- Well, not the -- I've prosecuted capos.
- sitting next to an organized crime prosecutor.
- I'm
- So I've
- prosecuted probably five to seven senior leaders.
- I've never
- prosecuted the boss of an organized crime family.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Got you.
- The President's former personal
- 183
- attorney, Michael Cohen, has been in the headlines recently.
- I'm not going to ask you specific questions about his case, but
- I wanted to clarify for the record some of the legal and
- investigative processes that lend itself to that type of case.
- You may recall that when Mr. Cohen's apartment, office, and
- hotel room were first raided by the FBI in April of this year,
- the President attacked these steps.
- attorney-client privilege is dead.
- hunt.
- He declared that, quote,
- It was, quote, a total witch
- And he described the investigation as a, quote,
- disgraceful situation and an attack on our country.
- Now, the raid was conducted by the FBI pursuant to a search
- warrant and at the direction of the Office of the U.S. Attorney
- for the Southern District, I think.
- Can you walk us through the
- steps that the FBI and DOJ take before approving a search warrant
- on an attorney and seizing documents that might include
- potentially privileged materials?
- Mr. Comey.
- In very shorthand I will.
- It's a complicated
- process, but it involves a long series of approvals because it's
- what we would call a sensitive investigative matter.
- It touched
- on attorney-client relationships potentially, which are the core
- of our Nation, and so it would require approval to a very high
- level in the FBI, a very high level in the Department of Justice,
- and then have to go to a Federal judge.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Okay.
- Was there anything that took place in
- these investigative steps that destroyed the attorney-client
- 184
- privilege such that it would justify the President's statement
- that the attorney-client privilege is dead?
- Mr. Comey.
- know that case.
- Well, I can answer in general, because I don't
- The entire sensitive investigative matter
- process is designed to be respectful of the privileges that might
- be touched by a search on a lawyer's office.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Okay.
- President Trump has kept up his drum
- beat against his former lawyer.
- Most recently, the attacks were
- in response Mr. Cohen's plea deal with the special counsel's
- office in which he admitted to lying about the Trump Tower Moscow
- project in contact with Russian Government officials during the
- 2016 campaign.
- The President responded within hours tweeting, quote:
- Michael Cohen asks judge for no prison time.
- You mean he can
- do all of the terrible unrelated to Trump things having to do
- with fraud, big loans, taxes, et cetera, and not serve a long
- prison term?
- He makes up stories to get a great and already
- reduced deal for himself and get his wife and father-in-law who
- has the money, question mark, off scot-free.
- He lied for this
- outcome and should, in my opinion, serve a complete sentence.
- I would like to draw on your years of experience as an
- organized crime prosecutor and senior DOJ official and head of
- the FBI to unpack some of the prosecutorial methods that are under
- attack by the President.
- First, why do criminal defendants such as Michael Cohen
- 185
- decide to change course and flip?
- Mr. Comey.
- I can only answer that in general not about the
- case in particular.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Mr. Comey.
- In general.
- Because they conclude that it's in their
- self-interest to try to obtain a reduction in their sentence by
- providing substantial assistance to the people of the United
- States by helping solve other crimes.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Yes.
- At certain points, I think the President
- has meditated the possibility of making it a crime to flip or
- saying it should be against the law to flip.
- What do you make
- of that suggestion, as a prosecutor?
- Mr. Comey.
- It's a shocking suggestion coming from any
- senior official, no less the President.
- It's a critical and
- legitimate part of the entire justice system in the United
- States.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Does the government routinely grant
- defendants who cooperate with the government and render honest
- testimony reduced sentences in exchange for their cooperation?
- Mr. Comey.
- Routinely, the prosecutors ask the judge to
- take that substantial assistance into account and reduce their
- sentences.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Okay.
- prosecutor --
- So it's not directly up to the
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- 186
- Mr. Raskin.
- -- but they will recommend to the court, if
- the person follows through -Mr. Comey.
- Right, if they tell the truth and provide
- substantial assistance in the investigation or prosecution of
- others.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- You know --
- That's how we make mob cases, terrorism cases,
- child abuse cases, drug cases, kidnapping cases.
- It's essential
- to the workings of our criminal justice system.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Yes.
- It may be difficult to extricate
- ourselves from the last couple of years, but if we were to go
- back to a more innocent time, would you agree that it's dangerous
- or would you disagree that it's dangerous to have a sitting
- President commenting on active criminal proceedings and
- investigations and trying to interfere in them?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think we have become numb to lying and attacks
- on the rule of law by the President, all of us have to a certain
- extent, and it's something we can't ever become numb to.
- Mr. Raskin.
- Okay.
- I will close with that.
- Thank you very
- much, Director Comey.
- Ms. Hariharan.
- [Recess.]
- It is 3:13, and we'll go off the record.
- 187
- [3:23 p.m.]
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Back on the record.
- Mr. Chairman, is it okay?
- Okay, thank you.
- Director, let me just go back and try to clear up a few things
- probably mostly for me.
- The last hour I think you were talking
- about this with the minority as well.
- You have your meeting with the President in February of
- 2017, where the President talks about can you see your way clear
- to go easy on Mike Flynn or whatever, something to that effect.
- You then had a meeting with your senior staff and wrote a memo
- memorializing what took place in your meeting with the President.
- Is that right?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- I met with the senior leadership team
- and prepared and reviewed with them a memo.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Say it again.
- I'm sorry.
- Prepared to what?
- I prepared and then reviewed with them my memo.
- So they worked on the memo with you?
- No.
- I wrote the memo.
- I gave them a copy of
- it to read, and then we sat down and talked.
- Mr. Jordan.
- You sat down and talked about it, okay.
- And
- who all was in that meeting, again?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure, but I'm sure Deputy
- Director McCabe was there; General Counsel Baker was there; my
- chief of staff; Jim Rybicki was there.
- I believe the number
- three at the FBI at that point, who was the Associate Deputy
- 188
- Director, was there.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- That individual's name?
- At that point, it was David Bowdich.
- Bowdich, okay.
- And then I believe that -- and this I'm less
- certain of -- that the head of the National Security Branch, Carl
- Ghattas, was there, and -- or Bill Priestap, the head of
- Counterintelligence.
- I'm not sure about with the last two guys,
- but I think it's a possibility.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Deputy Director McCabe, Chief Counsel Baker,
- Chief of Staff Rybicki, Mr. Bowdich, Mr. Ghattas, Mr. Priestap.
- Mr. Comey.
- That's the universe of people I think could have
- been there.
- Mr. Jordan.
- You think they were all there.
- Was Peter
- Strzok there?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm sorry.
- I didn't say I think they were all
- there.
- I said that's the universe of people who could have been
- there.
- I'm certain about McCabe, Rybicki, and Baker.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- You're certain of the top three?
- Yeah.
- The other three that you mentioned could have
- been there.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah.
- What about Mr. Strzok?
- I don't remember him being there.
- 189
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- And Ms. Page?
- I don't remember her being there.
- And what did McCabe, Baker, and Rybicki advise
- you to do, and then any of the others who -- if you can remember,
- what did they advise you to do after you showed them the memo
- and then talked about your -- you know, what had happened with
- you and the President?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember who said what, but I remember
- two points of consensus:
- We were all very concerned about it;
- and, second, we agreed that we ought to hold it very close, not
- brief the investigative team at this point and not go over and
- talk to the leadership of the Department of Justice, to hold onto
- it until we got a new Deputy Attorney General and they sorted
- out how they were going to supervise the Russia investigation.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Why did you decide not to share it with the
- leadership of the Justice Department?
- Mr. Comey.
- Because we believed that the Attorney General,
- Mr. Sessions, was -Mr. Jordan.
- Excuse me one second.
- I've got to move.
- I'm
- having trouble seeing you here.
- Mr. Comey.
- We believed that the Attorney General,
- Mr. Sessions, was on the cusp of recusing himself from anything
- related to Russia, so it didn't make any sense to brief him on
- it, and that there was no Deputy Attorney General at that point.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Why would you make that assumption?
- I mean,
- 190
- just because -- I mean, first of all, if he was on the cusp of
- leaving, that's a judgment call.
- Maybe he was; maybe -- I can't
- recall exactly what was going on in February.
- But he's still the Attorney General.
- himself.
- He had not recused
- If this is something important enough for you to
- memorialize, talk to your top people, why not then share it with
- the top law enforcement official in the government?
- Mr. Comey.
- Because we believed -- it turns out
- correctly -- that he was about to step out of any involvement,
- anything related to Russia.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I understand that.
- But just because you
- believe he's about to do something doesn't change the fact that
- he's the Attorney General and, frankly, as the Attorney General
- for our government, should receive that kind of information, I
- would think.
- Mr. Comey.
- It's a judgment call we made that it was prudent
- to wait, given our expectation he wouldn't be the Attorney
- General in a matter of days with respect to that topic.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Okay.
- So, if you're that concerned about
- Mr. Sessions, why didn't you share it with the Deputy Attorney
- General?
- Mr. Comey.
- There was no Deputy Attorney General at that
- point in time.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Ms. Yates had already stepped down.
- Correct.
- 191
- Mr. Jordan.
- Department?
- Okay.
- So who is number three at the Justice
- Why not share it with them?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know who was number three at that point.
- There was an acting -- there was a U.S. Attorney acting as the
- Deputy Attorney General, who we knew would be in the seat only
- until Rod Rosenstein was confirmed.
- And so it didn't make sense
- to brief a matter like that to him, it was our judgment, and so
- we would just hold it.
- And there was no -- we saw no investigative urgency.
- If
- there was something we had to do right away, we might have thought
- about it differently, but given how we thought about the
- investigative state in which it was, it made sense to hold onto
- it.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I just want to be clear.
- So you knew at the
- time that there was no Deputy Attorney General; Ms. Yates had
- stepped down.
- You knew at the time that Jeff Sessions was the
- Attorney General, but you thought he may be recusing himself at
- some point in the near future.
- And you also knew at the time
- Rod Rosenstein had been nominated to fulfill or to fill the DAG
- position.
- Is that all right?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Correct.
- That was what you knew and assumed at the time.
- And so you made a decision we're going to wait until
- Mr. Rosenstein has the position and we're going to go talk to
- him?
- 192
- Mr. Comey.
- I think what we decided was -- I don't think
- we were that specific.
- We said:
- Let's wait until the
- Department of Justice gets its leadership team on and figures
- out how it wants to staff the -- this case.
- Because you'll
- recall, during his confirmation hearing, one of the things Rod
- Rosenstein had promised the Senate was he would think about
- whether to appoint a special prosecutor once he became Deputy
- Attorney General.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So how did you know that he was on the cusp,
- according to your words, the cusp of recusal?
- How would you know
- that?
- Mr. Comey.
- A couple of reasons.
- It seemed like an obvious
- case for recusal, given his role in the campaign.
- And I
- think -- in fact, I know we had been told by that point that the
- career officials at the Department of Justice were recommending
- that he recuse himself.
- I think we knew that at that point.
- So
- it seemed a foregone conclusion the Attorney General was going
- to step out of Russia matters.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- So who told you?
- I don't remember.
- Why would they have told you?
- Well, the person who told me would have been
- someone on my senior team.
- Mr. Meadows.
- communicated?
- Yeah, but why would that have been
- Before a recusal actually took place, why would
- 193
- they be communicating that to you, Director Comey?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Why would my staff be telling me?
- No.
- Why would someone at the Department of
- Justice tell you that Jeff Sessions is going to recuse himself
- that would actually change your actions and what you decided to
- do?
- Mr. Comey.
- First of all, I know I said this before, but
- no one told me from the Department of Justice.
- If your question
- is, why would someone at the Department of Justice tell someone
- at the FBI, that I don't know.
- Mr. Meadows.
- So who told you?
- changed your decision.
- I mean, obviously, it
- So you're saying that you have no
- knowledge of who told you that Jeff Sessions was on the cusp of
- recusal?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Meadows.
- Yeah.
- It didn't --
- That's your testimony?
- It didn't change my decision.
- It was --
- Well, it obviously did because you didn't
- take it to the Attorney General, which is the highest law
- enforcement officer.
- You didn't take it to him.
- So your
- testimony just now suggested that it did change your actions.
- Mr. Comey.
- decision I made.
- No.
- I'm suggesting it was a factor in a
- It was reality, and I stared at that reality
- and, based on that reality, I made a decision.
- The decision was,
- let's hold onto it until they sort out their leadership.
- 194
- Mr. Jordan.
- Didn't in your memos you highlight the idea
- that if the President has something like what he told you in this
- meeting that prompted the memo and prompted this meeting, that
- there's a proper chain he's supposed to follow?
- President should go to the Attorney General.
- In fact, the
- They should look
- at the information, and then they should bring it to you as the
- director of the FBI.
- You laid out a chain and a sequence that should happen if
- the President wants to get information to you, but it seems to
- me here we are now, you have this information that should be,
- I think, shared with the Attorney General and wasn't.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I'm not sure I follow your question,
- I don't remember a conversation with the President
- in this context about who he should talk to.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I think you, if I remember your memo -- I have
- to go back and look -- but if I remember your memo, one of the
- things you talked about is that if the President wants to share
- information like he shared with you about General Flynn, he
- should do that through the appropriate channels, being through
- the Attorney General, then through the Attorney General, Justice
- Department, and then it comes to you, as the Director of the FBI.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah.
- I'm not recalling that.
- sharing information about Mr. Flynn.
- He wasn't
- He was asking me to drop
- an investigation of Flynn.
- There are other contexts in which at the end of March or
- 195
- April where I told the President that the way it should work if
- he has an inquiry is to have the White House counsel call over
- to the leadership of the Department of Justice and do it that
- way.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- I want to move on to -- I want
- to go back to Bruce Ohr and Christopher Steele real quick, if
- I can.
- Do you know Bruce Ohr personally?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Not well.
- I've met him, and he was a
- prosecutor in New York around the time that I was a prosecutor
- in New York.
- Mr. Jordan.
- And did you -- just to recap, I think Mr. Gowdy
- was here earlier today.
- Did you know that Christopher Steele
- was giving information to Mr. Ohr?
- Mr. Comey.
- I didn't know that, and I don't know that for
- a fact.
- Mr. Jordan.
- So you didn't know that Christopher Steele was
- passing information to Mr. Ohr and he was then providing it -- Mr.
- Ohr was then providing it to the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know if that's true, and I didn't know
- anything like that when I was Director.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Did you know if Christopher Steele had any bias
- against President Trump?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- No.
- Did you -- I'm just curious your thoughts.
- Maybe you can't comment on this.
- But why did the FBI need Bruce
- 196
- Ohr?
- If you were getting information directly from Mr. Steele,
- why did you need Bruce Ohr to also get information from Mr. Steele
- and then give it to the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- I can't answer that because I don't -- as I said
- in response to your earlier questions, I don't know anything
- about a Bruce Ohr connection to Mr. Steele.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Why was Christopher Steele terminated, his
- relationship with the FBI terminated, in November of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I don't know.
- Okay.
- Did you know that the FBI continued to
- use Mr. Steele's information after he was terminated by the FBI?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- What do you mean by use his information?
- The fact that after he's terminated, he
- continues to give information to Bruce Ohr, who Bruce Ohr, after
- each and every time he communicates with Christopher Steele, then
- sits down with the FBI, and there are, my understanding, several
- 302s, I think more than a dozen 302s that talk about those
- interactions that Mr. Ohr had with Mr. Steele.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I don't know anything about that.
- Okay.
- Were you aware that Christopher Steele
- had met with representatives in the media in September of 2016?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- No.
- So didn't know anything about that and didn't
- know that he had met with Mr. Isikoff with Yahoo News?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- And I don't even know whether that's true,
- 197
- but I didn't know anything about it.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Okay.
- It's been reported that there's a
- series of emails that talk about the idea that Christopher
- Steele -- not the idea, the fact that Christopher Steele had met
- with representatives in the press in September of 2016.
- Do you
- know anything about that series of emails?
- Mr. Comey.
- about it.
- No.
- I don't -- no, I don't remember anything
- Don't think I ever got an email about it or saw an
- email about it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Director Comey, what element was missing in
- July of 2016, when you had the press conference, that might have
- been found in October on Anthony Weiner's computer?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know it's an element, but what
- was -- the key ingredient that was missing in the Clinton
- investigation was any indication that she knew she was doing
- something she shouldn't be doing.
- And so what the Weiner trove
- potentially held was evidence of that intention, especially in
- the form of the emails from her BlackBerry during her first 3
- months as Secretary of State.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Tell me how the existence of that information
- may have impacted the element of intent.
- Mr. Comey.
- Again, I don't know that I'd call -- I don't
- know whether I would describe it as an element.
- My understanding
- is -- and I remember you and I talking about this it seems like
- years ago -- the Department of Justice has always required before
- 198
- it will bring that misdemeanor indications of intention or harm
- to the United States or obstruction of justice, those kinds of
- things.
- And that was the ingredient we didn't have in the
- Clinton case.
- And so the Weiner trove held the prospect that we -- because
- it might contain evidence of the beginning of her use of her
- unclass system, might hold that evidence.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, I'm sure you can see, because a smart guy
- and a good lawyer, the next question is, how can you begin to
- even draft a non-pros memo if you haven't interviewed two dozen
- witnesses, including the target, but you're already drafting a
- non-pros, but the moment you find out that there may be a computer
- you have not accessed, you reopen the investigation; whatever
- you found on Weiner's computer, could you not have also found
- when you were interviewing the two dozen witnesses?
- Mr. Comey.
- Potentially.
- What I was doing in May was 10
- months into an investigation, seeing on the current course and
- speed where it's going to end, planning.
- did too.
- Just -- I'm sure you
- I drafted plenty of indictments before I finished
- investigations because it looked like we were going to get enough
- to charge a person.
- And so that's what it was about.
- And, again -- I know I said this in response to the
- Democrats' questions -- the prospect, what made Weiner's
- computer a horse of a different color was the size of the trove
- and the emails potentially from the first 3 months as Secretary
- 199
- of State a very different kettle of fish.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Is it because -- and, again, I know you don't
- like answering hypos, and I don't actually like asking
- them -- but what in particular the beginning stages of her tenure
- would have addressed an element that you thought was missing?
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, that's easy to answer.
- If there was going
- to be evidence that she knew she was communicating in a way she
- shouldn't, explicit evidence, common sense tells you it's likely
- to be at the beginning when someone encountered her mode or means
- of communication and said:
- that.
- Hey, boss, you know you can't do
- You know you can't talk about this kind of thing or that
- kind of thing on an unclass system.
- It's much more likely to be at the beginning, which we never
- found, those 3 months, than much later.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- beginning.
- All right.
- Well, let me ask you about the
- Bryan Pagliano, when the FBI interviewed him, who
- did he say instructed him to set up the server?
- Mr. Kelley.
- I'm sorry.
- Who is the name, please?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Bryan Pagliano.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you remember Bryan Pagliano?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I remember the name.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- A Department of State employee who, by all
- indications, set up the server for Secretary Clinton.
- Do you
- know whether he was asked what he was told about why this was
- 200
- being done?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't today.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Could that witness also have provided some
- evidence of intent, based on those conversations?
- Mr. Comey.
- The guy who set up the server?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Sure.
- Mr. Comey.
- Maybe.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know where he worked?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Maybe.
- I mean, I'm sure I did at some point.
- I
- don't remember.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- He worked at the Department of State, or he was
- paid by the Department of State.
- Did the Bureau pull any hour
- sheets or performance evaluations to see whether or not he
- actually did work at the Department of State?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did the Bureau talk to his supervisor?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- I don't remember certainly today.
- I don't know whether I ever knew that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What was he granted immunity for and from?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't recall.
- I'm sure I knew 2 years ago,
- but I don't remember.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who is Paul Combetta?
- Mr. Comey.
- Another one of the figures somehow in the setup
- of the server or something.
- I can't -- I remember the name, but
- I don't remember what his role was.
- 201
- Mr. Gowdy.
- He worked at Platte River.
- Does that refresh
- your recollection?
- Mr. Comey.
- Platte River Networks, yeah.
- I forget whether
- they supplied the server or one of the servers.
- They were
- involved in the setup or maintenance of the Secretary's private
- email server.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Were they also involved in any deletions of her
- emails?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- It sounds familiar, but I
- honestly can't remember.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall the product BleachBit?
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, yes, I do.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know where that came from?
- Mr. Comey.
- I certainly don't today.
- I don't know whether
- I ever did.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall a conference call between Cheryl
- Mills, David Kendall, perhaps Heather Samuelson, and Platte
- River about the time the public learned she had this unusual email
- arrangement?
- Mr. Comey.
- Vaguely.
- I'm not sure I remember those
- participants.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall emails being destroyed by Platte
- River after the public learned that she had this email
- arrangement?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- That rings more of a bell.
- I remember
- 202
- something about -- and I don't know whether it was Combetta or
- not -- but somebody having failed to do what they asked him to
- do and panicking and going back and deleting emails on one of
- the old servers maybe.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- That is definitely one version of how that
- conference call went, that he in the past had been told to have
- a short retention, and he got on the phone with some of Secretary
- Clinton's attorneys and had -- I won't use the word -- but an
- oh-something bad moment and realized he had not done it.
- There
- are other versions that we don't have access to because
- privileges were asserted surrounding that conversation.
- Do you
- recall anything about that?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- I remember privilege issues, but not about
- that conversation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Who made the decision to allow Cheryl Mills and
- Heather Samuelson to sit in on Secretary Clinton's interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think the DOJ did, although I'm trying to
- remember whether I knew personally.
- FBI people knew about it
- and didn't object to it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- They did or did not?
- Mr. Comey.
- Did not, to my recollection.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- We've interviewed some Bureau employees who
- thought it was a very unusual arrangement that they were not
- familiar with.
- How would you describe allowing multiple fact
- witnesses to be present while a fact witness is being
- 203
- interviewed?
- Mr. Comey.
- Certainly unusual in that you had two people
- who had been witnesses, who were the Secretary -- the subject's
- lawyers, who after we cleared as to them were allowed to attend
- the interview.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Unusual.
- When you say "unusual," in the time you spent
- in the Southern District and at the FBI and the Department of
- Justice, can you recall another time where fact witnesses also
- served as potential counsel?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- I can't -- and we would have to negotiate
- that with -- I'm trying to remember the terms -- a Curcio hearing
- and having all kinds of discussions about how to handle it in
- a charged case.
- I don't know that I can remember -- sitting here, I can't
- remember an uncharged, so an investigative stage case, where a
- lawyer for the subject emerged as a fact witness.
- I can't.
- I'm
- sure if I have more time to think about it, maybe I will, but
- I can't right now.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Why does the Bureau typically not interview
- multiple fact witnesses at the same time?
- Mr. Comey.
- Because you'd ideally like people not to know
- what others' stories are so they're not able to get their story
- together.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Some of the same reasons they have a
- sequestration rule.
- So you don't want witnesses to hear other
- 204
- witnesses.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, ideally.
- You want to keep them all in
- separate boxes.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So why was this interview handled differently?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember for sure.
- I think a key factor
- was they were her lawyers, and so our ability to keep them from
- talking to each other was slim to none regardless and that they
- had been -- we had finished our evaluation of them as potential
- subjects.
- And so I think the judgment of the team was it's
- unusual, but it's really not something that's going to hurt our
- investigation.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Can you think of another investigation you were
- involved with where that happened?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you interview Patrick Kennedy?
- Mr. Comey.
- I didn't interview anybody.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did the Bureau interview Patrick Kennedy?
- Mr. Comey.
- State Department official?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- State Department official.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- It rings some bell, but maybe
- I know his name from something else.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did the Bureau gain an understanding of how she
- could have kept her emails from the time she separated from
- service at the State Department, but yet felt the need to delete
- them in March of 2015?
- 205
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Destruction of evidence can be considered
- evidence of what?
- Mr. Comey.
- It can either be a separate offense or evidence
- of consciousness of guilt.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Of the statutes the Bureau had under
- investigation -- and what I mean by that is the fact pattern may
- have applied to certain statutes -- which statutes do you recall
- were at issue or at play in this investigation?
- Mr. Comey.
- anymore.
- I don't know if I remember even the numbers
- I think it was 18 U.S.C. 1924, which I think is the
- misdemeanor, and 793, which is a variety of sections relating
- to espionage, mishandling of classified information, theft of
- classified information.
- be wrong about that.
- I think those were the two.
- I could
- I've tried to suppress it, but I think those
- are the two.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So maybe a felony retention, a gross negligence
- standard, also a felony, I think, and then a misdemeanor?
- Does
- that sound right?
- Mr. Comey.
- 793 and 1924.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Yes.
- Maybe you can help me.
- I think 1924 is the misdemeanor.
- You are correct.
- I think it was
- 793 --
- 1924, you are correct.
- 793,
- and there's a section (f), which is gross negligence, and then
- there's a section (d), which is a higher level of scienter.
- that sound right?
- Does
- 206
- Mr. Comey.
- It does sound right.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- In your judgment, what element was missing that
- prevented or thwarted a successful -- well, let me ask you this:
- Is it your position there was insufficient evidence to charge
- or your position that there was insufficient evidence, even if
- charged, to secure a conviction?
- Mr. Comey.
- As I recall, our judgment was that, given the
- way the Department of Justice for 50 or 100 years had treated
- those statutes, we did not have sufficient evidence of intent
- for any -- anybody in the counterespionage section to bring those
- charges, that they would never bring a gross negligence
- prosecution, and that all the misdemeanor cases involved some
- other element of proof that raised it up to the level at which
- they would bring that statute to bear.
- So I don't -- I don't think we spent a lot of time figuring
- out whether we had a beyond a reasonable doubt case, because it
- was so obvious we had a case that nobody would prosecute.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Had there ever been prosecutions under the
- gross negligence statute?
- Mr. Comey.
- One, as I recall, since 1917.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Was the statute ever used in applications for
- search warrants?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- I don't know if I ever knew that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So, as we sit here today -- and I know you and
- I have had this conversation, and it's been a while -- your best
- 207
- explanation for what was lacking -- I get the fact the statute
- wasn't used that often, but no statute is used for the first time
- until it is.
- So what -- did you view the statute as being
- unconstitutional?
- Did you view it as being so vague as to not
- sustain a conviction, or was there an element of the statute you
- think was missing?
- Mr. Comey.
- See if I get this right.
- not crystal clear at this point.
- My recollection is
- I remember learning that there
- were grave reservations for decades in the Department of Justice
- about the constitutionality of 793(f), I think it is, and an
- understanding -- and I confirmed that understanding by reading
- the legislative history myself -- that when Congress passed that
- statute and made it a felony in 1917, their intention was for
- the definition of gross negligence to approach willfulness, very
- similar to the kind of intention that the Department of Justice
- would require for a 1924 prosecution.
- And we had proof that got us nowhere near willfulness.
- And
- so our judgment was we got no chance on 793, even if they would
- bring the second prosecution in American history in this context,
- and we sure got no chance on the intention requirement that
- they've imposed on the statute forever.
- And so our judgment was,
- look, we worked this hard; we're nowhere near where anybody would
- bring this.
- It turns out I got criticized that my case for having no
- 208
- case was not strong enough.
- The inspector general hit me that
- I should have told the public they also would never bring a case
- where the people communicating all had a clearance and a need
- to know the information, and that Director Comey failed to be
- accurate with the American people in saying not only was this
- no case; it was more of a no case than he realized.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- All right.
- You have smart lawyers at the
- Department, smart lawyers at the Bureau.
- pretty early on in the investigation.
- So you knew all of that
- This is one of the first
- things you're going to ask is, what is the case law?
- Have there
- been other prosecutions?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah.
- I didn't know it to that level of detail
- until the spring, but I knew from just talking to our troops early
- on it's going to be a hard case to make, given the way the
- Department of Justice has always understood these statutes.
- Let's get at it, see what we can find.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So what were you looking for?
- changed that analysis?
- What could have
- What specific piece or pieces of
- evidence could have changed that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Significant evidence of knowledge of
- lawlessness, the nature of the unlawful conduct, significant
- evidence of communication with people without a clearance or a
- need to know, significant evidence of obstruction of justice and
- false statements by the subject, and probably other things that
- are in the other cases, but those are three that pop into my head
- 209
- 2 years on.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did you find any evidence of either successful
- or attempted foreign intrusions in her server?
- Mr. Comey.
- My recollection is that we did not find evidence
- that foreign actors had intruded into the server, but that our
- experts thought we wouldn't see it, given the nature of the server
- and the nature of the adversary.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- That's my best recollection.
- So there was no draft of your July 5th statement
- that may have included any language about possibly hostile actors
- having access to emails?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember for sure, but it wouldn't
- surprise me if there were because I was trying to describe what
- our folks said, which is:
- We don't see the evidence, but given
- the nature of the actors, we wouldn't be likely to see the
- evidence.
- But I don't remember exactly how I phrased it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- So you don't recall a draft that may have used
- phrases like likelihood, significant likelihood edited down to
- a potential?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't, sitting here.
- It wouldn't surprise
- me, though, as part of the editing process.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- If there had been evidence, in your judgment,
- would that have met the allowed access by people without
- sufficient security classifications?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not necessarily, because the kind of evidence
- I understand that DOJ looks for is I intentionally shared
- 210
- information with you, who didn't have a clearance.
- The
- carelessness involved in having a system that a bad guy could
- hack into is a different sort, and so that's not what I was talking
- about earlier.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Did all of Secretary Clinton's attorneys have
- the requisite security clearances?
- Mr. Comey.
- Not to my knowledge.
- Not all of them, no.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall which ones did not, and would they
- have been any of the ones who actually culled through her emails?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't recall as to people.
- I have some
- recollection that maybe David Kendall from another case had a
- clearance or something.
- But of the attorneys, surely not all
- of them had the requisite clearance to be viewing classified
- information.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would that have met the evidentiary burden for
- an element if you gave emails to someone who did not have a
- security clearance?
- Mr. Comey.
- No.
- DOJ would laugh us across the street if
- we came over with that, that someone in the course of legal
- representation had their lawyer review something.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- No chance.
- It sounds to me, though, with all due respect,
- that you are describing an intent statute, an intent to
- disseminate or share classified information with somebody who
- is not entitled to it.
- So why would Congress come up with a gross
- negligence standard if we're going to read it as intent?
- 211
- Mr. Comey.
- 1917 Congress.
- I don't know for sure.
- You'd have to ask the
- But my recollection of the reading the history
- of it is there was a movement to try and have the espionage statute
- sweep more broadly than just intentional misconduct.
- And there
- was a debate in Congress, which is why people who voted it for
- it said:
- I'll go along with gross negligence, but it better be
- up at the willful level, close to intentional misconduct.
- But
- I don't know beyond that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you know whether anyone at the Bureau or the
- Department shared questions with Ms. Mills' or Samuelson's
- attorney before the interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I don't.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Would you be surprised if that happened?
- Is
- that outside the normal protocol, from your experience?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- It would depend.
- I guess I
- could imagine it if they were negotiating over privileged spheres
- and trying to navigate privilege.
- I could imagine an
- investigator sharing, "Look, this is what I want to talk about,
- this, this and this," to try and avoid a privilege assertion,
- but I don't know.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What other investigatory tools did you have
- other than a voluntary interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- With respect to?
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Either Mills, Samuelson, Kendall, Pagliano,
- Combetta.
- 212
- Mr. Comey.
- Conceivably, you could -- lots of
- investigative tools, but the closest to an interview would be
- a grand jury subpoena, questioning someone in the grand jury.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And tell me why that was not done for any of
- the witnesses.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- The judgment of the
- investigative team surely that it wasn't necessary.
- My
- recollection, which is not crystal clear, as to Secretary Clinton
- is that there were more degrees of freedom in doing an interview
- than doing it in a grand jury setting, where, as you know, it's
- very restrictive.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I do know that.
- I also know, unless
- something's changed, the attorney's not allowed in a grand jury
- when a witness is being interviewed, and there would be no
- situation under which multiple witnesses would be interviewed
- at the same time by a grand jury.
- Mr. Comey.
- That's right.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Fair?
- Mr. Comey.
- Fair, although, as you know, because this is
- what gums it up, the witness can ask to go outside and consult
- with their attorney -Mr. Gowdy.
- Absolutely.
- Mr. Comey.
- -- as frequently as they like during a grand
- jury proceeding.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Absolutely.
- So what I'm trying to get at is,
- 213
- what do you give up by using the grand jury?
- Mr. Comey.
- What did the --
- Mr. Gowdy.
- What do you give up?
- advantage do you lose?
- What investigatory
- If you have a choice between a voluntary
- interview and a grand jury appearance, what are you risking
- losing with the grand jury interview?
- Mr. Comey.
- A number of things.
- If you're going to talk
- about TS/SCI information, you have a real problem with the grand
- jury.
- You'll have to clear a grand jury, which is really tricky,
- and both because of the intrusion on their private lives and just
- how difficult it is to clear 23 U.S. citizens who have been
- summoned for jury duty.
- And so you have to figure out what can we discuss in the
- grand jury and what can't we discuss in the grand jury.
- So what
- you're gaining with the informal interview is, in a SCIF, an
- agility that you wouldn't have in a grand jury and then the
- ability of a group of investigators all to fire at the person
- and watch and poke and watch and poke in a way you can't in a
- grand jury.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Ratcliffe go.
- Well, I'm out of time.
- I'm going to let
- But I do need you to -- if the witnesses don't
- have clearances, then how much conversation would there be with
- those witnesses about classified information over which they had
- no clearance?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think they gave everybody in that room an
- 214
- interim clearance to discuss TS/SCI information that day.
- So
- you were able to give interim clearances to a small group of
- people.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- I was more referring to the lawyers that may
- have culled through the emails when they were asked to do so,
- and do you know whether they had clearances when they went through
- her emails?
- Mr. Comey.
- them didn't.
- As I said earlier, I'm sure at least some of
- Maybe all of them didn't.
- I have some
- recollection that maybe David Kendall or somebody had a
- clearance, but certainly not all of them.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And he would have had a clearance -- well, who
- represented David Petraeus?
- Mr. Comey.
- Maybe it was David Kendall.
- Maybe that's why
- I'm remembering it.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- It was.
- Mr. Comey.
- He's an experienced lawyer who has represented
- a lot of people in classified investigations.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- He is.
- Mr. Comey.
- Maybe he did.
- But others, I'm sure they all
- didn't have clearances.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And I think Congressman Ratcliffe made
- reference to the fact that you -- or at least there are quotes
- attributed to you -- are not happy with the decision to let him
- plead to a misdemeanor as opposed to a felony.
- Is that true?
- 215
- Mr. Comey.
- That's true.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- And part of it was because you assigned a higher
- level of knowledge or duty to him, given his role as a general?
- Mr. Comey.
- And the nature of the offense was just proof
- that he knew he was doing something he shouldn't do was
- overwhelming, and on top of that, he lied about it to the FBI.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Right.
- I really am going to let John go now.
- He lied to the FBI; that is a crime.
- as we've established.
- Lying to the public is not,
- But is it not evidence of intent and/or
- consciousness of guilt?
- I mean, Secretary Clinton told the
- public that no classified information traversed her server, and
- that was false, right?
- Mr. Comey.
- She maintained that -- as I recall, that she
- did not -- she thought she had successfully talked around the
- classified subjects.
- And the challenge for the prosecutors and
- investigators was proving that is false.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Well, and it would have been really interesting
- had she phrased it to the public:
- I did my best to avoid talking
- around any documents that may have been classified.
- But that is not what she said.
- She said:
- No classified
- information was either sent or received.
- Do you recall that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Generally.
- I think that's right.
- said, during her interview, she maintained that:
- And, as you
- I believed we
- had successfully talked -- we had not crossed the line.
- We had
- 216
- talked around these subjects and were sufficiently vague as to
- not implicate the classification requirements.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- She also said that no records were destroyed,
- that they were all retained.
- Mr. Comey.
- Do you recall her saying that?
- I don't remember.
- I believe you, but I don't
- remember that.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Do you recall her saying her attorneys were
- overly inclusive in what they considered to be public as opposed
- to private?
- Mr. Comey.
- No, I don't remember that one.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- You agree false statements sometimes is as much
- evidence of intent as you're going to get?
- Mr. Comey.
- In some cases.
- Mr. Gowdy.
- Demonstrably false exculpatory statements.
- Mr. Comey.
- Hard to answer in the abstract, but in some
- cases it can be your best evidence.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
- Director, I want to have you look at an email, if you would,
- please.
- I'm more concerned with the second email where the from
- line is McCabe, Andrew McCabe.
- I'll give you a minute to look
- it over and then just want to run through it.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- The one dated Sunday, January 8th?
- Yes, 12:08.
- Okay, I've read it.
- Okay.
- So in the first line:
- "According to
- 217
- Kortan, CNN is close to going forward with the sensitive story."
- What is "the sensitive story"?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think it is the salacious -- the sexual
- details from a portion of the Steele dossier.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Okay.
- What's been commonly called the
- salacious and unverified, that part of the dossier?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's what I call it, yep.
- Mr. Jordan.
- All right.
- Second paragraph:
- "CNN states
- that they believe the pressure has built and is unavoidable."
- Actually, let's go to the:
- "Mike relates that he will try
- to skirt the most controversial stuff, focus on the question of
- possible compromise generally."
- What does "possible compromise" refer to?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know what he means.
- It means in the
- beginning, it sounds like he'll try to avoid the sex stuff, but
- I don't know what he means by "focus on the question of possible
- compromise generally."
- Mr. Jordan.
- You read that the way I do.
- The most
- controversial stuff is what you just told me the sensitive story
- is.
- But the second clause, the question of possible compromise
- generally, you don't know what that means?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I don't.
- Okay.
- Yeah, I don't know what he means.
- Next sentence:
- "The trigger for them
- is they know the material was discussed in the brief and presented
- in an attachment."
- 218
- I have an idea what I think that sentence means, but you
- tell me, if you would.
- Mr. Comey.
- I take that as a reference to someone has told
- them that the President-elect was briefed on this controversial
- stuff, and -- yeah, that he was briefed on this controversial
- stuff and that their knowledge of that is what is triggering them
- to do the reporting.
- My recollection is, we understood that CNN had the salacious
- and unverified information, which was one of the reasons we told
- the President-elect about it.
- And in it's kind of a
- bootstrapping, they're now saying, we have found out that the
- President-elect was briefed on it and so we're going to go with
- it.
- That's what -- I could be wrong about that, Mr. Jordan, but
- that's how I understand that.
- Mr. Jordan.
- That's exactly how I read it.
- Now, just to
- be clear, the material that was discussed in the brief, that's
- the brief you gave the President-elect?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Correct.
- All right.
- And somehow someone told CNN that
- you had done just that?
- Mr. Comey.
- It appears so from this email.
- That's how I'm
- reading -Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Any idea who told them that?
- Say again, I'm sorry?
- Any idea who told them that you had actually
- 219
- briefed the President-elect about this subject?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- No.
- No idea?
- No idea.
- It's been reported that Mr. Clapper may have
- been involved in giving that information to CNN.
- Any indication
- that that's accurate?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- No.
- Same answer, I don't know.
- Okay.
- What's the attachment?
- I don't see an attachment.
- The trigger for them is they know the material
- was discussed in the brief that you gave to the President-elect
- on January 6 and presented in an attachment.
- Did you give -- was there some attachment?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Oh, I see.
- I think I know what that means.
- What is that?
- The way in which -- I just want to be careful
- here because I don't want to talk about classified information.
- I believe they're discussing the literal format, written format
- in which material was presented to the President-elect's team
- and to the President-elect, and they're referring to some of the
- material being in an attachment and not in the body of the
- document.
- That's what I understand that to mean.
- Mr. Jordan.
- So, in other words, you told the President
- certain things, but you also left him some kind of attachment,
- 220
- some written, some piece of paper or something as well, and they
- knew about that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah.
- And that's a garble, because that -- I
- take them to mean an attachment, but the attachment, to my
- recollection, didn't contain the salacious and unverified stuff,
- and that that was simply conveyed orally from me to the
- President-elect.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I understand.
- Any idea how they got -- how
- CNN gets ahold of the attachment that you gave the President of
- the United States?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't understand it to be saying that they
- have the attachment.
- I read this sentence to say the trigger
- for them is they know the material was discussed in the brief
- and presented in an attachment.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Okay.
- So they didn't physically have that,
- they just knew that that's how it was presented to the President?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- I don't know.
- All right.
- I'm just reading this.
- Next sentence:
- "So far it does
- not look like they will characterize FBI efforts."
- What does that mean?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure, but I have enough of a
- reaction I'll offer it to you, that I take this as likely being
- that the FBI Director briefed the President-elect about this
- material.
- I could be wrong about that, but I don't know what
- other FBI efforts he could be referring to.
- 221
- Mr. Jordan.
- So Andy McCabe is telling you, so far, based
- on what he has learned or Mr. Kortan has learned, that CNN is
- going to run with this story, but they don't fully know that
- you're the individual who briefed the President on this issue?
- That's what that sentence is about?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, that's how I'm reading it.
- And I could
- be wrong, but I'm reading this as CNN has somehow gotten on to
- the idea that the President-elect was told about certain
- information, but they actually don't know who did the telling,
- which is an indication -- I could be wrong about this too -- that
- it didn't come from the FBI.
- Mr. Jordan.
- In the question section, he says, "a few
- questions," and he has two here.
- Asking you:
- "Do you have any
- guidance on who, if any, we should notify?"
- Did you notify anyone about this?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember.
- I don't remember notifying
- anybody, but it's possible.
- Mr. Jordan.
- General Yates.
- Did you do that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- partners."
- He suggests that you tell Deputy Attorney
- I don't remember doing that.
- What about, he next says, "the briefing
- Did you let them know?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- it's possible.
- I don't remember
- doing that, though, and I take that to mean the directors of CIA,
- NSA, and National Intelligence, but I don't remember doing that.
- 222
- Mr. Jordan.
- That was my next question.
- The briefing
- partners are who, those individuals?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- That's what I understand this to mean.
- And those would be the individuals who
- accompanied you to New York for this briefing with the President?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Correct.
- President-elect at the time?
- Correct.
- Okay.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- That's all I got.
- Thank you.
- Director Comey, I want to pick up where we
- were talking earlier, and I want to give you back your statement
- from your July 5th press conference.
- Setting aside the questions about whether or not Secretary
- Clinton had the intent to or was just reckless or careless in
- mishandling classified information, do you take issue with the
- characterization by your former general counsel, Jim Baker, who
- told this committee that Secretary Clinton's mishandling of
- classified -- that Secretary Clinton mishandled classified
- information in a manner that he described as appalling?
- Mr. Kelley.
- Could we see that portion of the transcript,
- please?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I don't have the portion.
- I'll represent
- to you -Mr. Kelley.
- And which day was that testimony?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- If you want to take the time, it's referred
- 223
- to in the inspector general report, and I'll find where he
- represented, not just to this committee, but to the inspector
- general and used the word "appalling."
- Mr. Kelley.
- Yes, sir.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Kelley.
- You want me to do that?
- Okay.
- If you're going to refer to transcripts, we
- ought to take a look at them.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Let me just ask you, Director, whether it's
- in the transcript or not, was Hillary Clinton's mishandling of
- classified information appalling?
- Mr. Comey.
- It's not -- I accept your representation.
- It's not a term that I have used.
- I think of it as really sloppy
- and -Mr. Ratcliffe.
- conference.
- Okay, really sloppy?
- Look at your press
- I guess by your counting, it looks like Hillary
- Clinton mishandled classified information on at least -- and by
- mishandled, I mean that classified information went across an
- unclassified device or server -- on at least 110 emails and 52
- email chains.
- Is that right?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think that's right.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And that eight of those were top secret.
- She mishandled top secret information at least eight times, by
- your counting?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- And that she mishandled classified
- 224
- information at a secret level 36 times, by your counting?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's right.
- These are all -- this is what
- makes up the 110 or whatever it is.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Exactly.
- She mishandled confidential
- information at least eight times, by your counting?
- Mr. Comey.
- Correct.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Doesn't -- your statement doesn't reflect
- it, but do you know if any of those were special access program,
- SCI, Sensitive Compartmentalized Information?
- Do you know if
- any of those were releasable only to five allied partners?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- I don't remember.
- I believe some
- of the topics that were discussed in the top secret category were
- also designated as Sensitive Compartmented Information.
- not certain of that, but I believe that to be the case.
- I'm
- I don't
- know with respect to the other restrictions on dissemination.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- So -- and I found the reference in
- the inspector general report where page 166 -Mr. Kelley.
- Thank you.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- 166?
- 166, the bottom paragraph:
- Baker told the
- OIG that he thought the conduct of former Secretary Clinton and
- her aides was appalling with respect to how they handled
- classified information, and arrogant in terms of their knowledge
- and understanding of these matters.
- Did I read that correctly?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, sir.
- 225
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- sloppy.
- So he says appalling and you say really
- Okay.
- And as Congressman Gowdy related, Secretary Clinton, about
- that mishandling, made a number of statements under oath -- or
- made a number of statements in public that were inaccurate, and
- I represented to you that at least one occasion she made that
- statement under oath when she said, I never sent or received
- classified information, correct?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, she did say that.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I want to let you take a look at -- we were
- looking for it before, but Hillary Clinton's 302.
- And on the
- page that I've referenced, I found the place where the agents
- and prosecutors were reviewing with her an email that had been
- marked.
- Do you find where I'm following?
- Mr. Comey.
- The bottom paragraph?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Take a second and read that.
- [Reviewing.]
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- All right.
- Does that refresh your
- recollection about, during the interview, Secretary Clinton
- being confronted with emails that had been marked classified?
- Mr. Comey.
- It looks like at least one.
- confusion, though.
- Here's the
- It had portion markings on the original.
- think what they're explaining here is the overall document
- marking had been added later.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Okay.
- I
- 226
- Mr. Comey.
- But it was definitely she was asked about a C,
- which those of us who know this business, that was a portion
- marking for a confidential classification.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- that.
- Okay.
- But they had a discussion about
- So during at least in the time that she was being
- interviewed, she understood that she had either sent or received
- information that had been marked classified?
- Mr. Comey.
- She appears to from this, yep.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall that in the course of the
- Midyear investigation, that the FBI became aware that personal
- aides, Huma Abedin, and Hillary Clinton's lawyer, Cheryl Mills,
- also mishandled classified information?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't -- I don't remember specifically.
- remember there was some -- no, that was after.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I
- I --
- And, again, by mishandled, I'm referring
- to classified information going across an unclassified device
- that they -- personal or work device that they had.
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't remember that about Ms. Mills.
- I
- remember a concern about that about Ms. Abedin, but what I was
- remembering is from the Weiner stuff from after -- I remember
- that being an issue after October 27th or 8th.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- about Paul Combetta.
- All right.
- Congressman Gowdy asked you
- I was surprised that you didn't really
- remember the role that he played in this, so let me -- do you
- recall that Paul Combetta was an employee at the Platte River
- 227
- Network who intentionally destroyed evidence known to be subject
- to a congressional subpoena and a preservation order and then
- lied to the FBI about it?
- Mr. Comey.
- that.
- I think so.
- I think Mr. Gowdy refreshed me on
- And which was the reason, as I recall, that there was an
- issue as to whether he would get any kind of immunity in exchange
- for his testimony thereafter.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- But he did receive immunity?
- Yeah.
- I just couldn't remember, in response
- to Mr. Gowdy's questions about him and the other guy, what the
- form of immunity was.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- All right.
- So I guess as I try and
- summarize what I've heard today, Hillary Clinton mishandled
- classified information more than a hundred times.
- false statements about it.
- She made
- The FBI was aware that at least one
- of her aides also mishandled classified information.
- And one
- of the folks employed on behalf of Secretary Clinton
- intentionally destroyed evidence known to be subject to a
- congressional subpoena and preservation order and lied to the
- FBI about it.
- And on July 5th, 2016, you stood before the American people
- and said that neither you nor any reasonable prosecutor would
- bring any charges in this fact pattern.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yep.
- Is that accurate?
- I believed it then, I believe it now.
- And anybody that thinks we were on team Clinton trying to cut
- 228
- her a break is smoking something.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I'll object to everything after "yep" as
- nonresponsive to my question.
- But is Jim Baker a reasonable prosecutor?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yeah, I think he is.
- He hasn't done a lot of
- criminal prosecution, he's in the intelligence world, but I think
- he's a reasonable prosecutor.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Do you recall what Jim Baker's response was
- on May the 2nd when you presented him with the non-pros memo or
- exoneration memo about whether or not Hillary Clinton should be
- charged with mishandling classified information?
- Mr. Comey.
- You mean my draft of a possible public
- statement?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- I don't remember exactly.
- He was a big part
- of the editing process.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Let's see if I can find
- what -- Mr. Baker -- well, let me -- do we have the Baker
- transcript?
- Mr. Jordan.
- Director, I'm just curious, where did the
- names Midyear Exam and Crossfire Hurricane come from?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know for sure.
- What I was long told
- is that the names for all of these things came from some random
- name generator in the bowels of the Counterintelligence
- Division.
- I never had any information to the contrary, but
- 229
- occasionally I would see names that seemed like they couldn't
- be random.
- Those both seem kind of random to me.
- Mr. Jordan.
- So is it customary for any investigation the
- FBI does, it receives some code name or some name?
- Mr. Comey.
- I think no.
- Almost -- maybe all of the
- classified counterintelligence investigations are given a code
- name that's unclassified so that people who are outside of a
- classified space can make reference to it without giving anything
- away.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Is this a random list, you know, that sometimes
- we hear some algorithm giving us this -- spitting us out this
- information, or are these just people on the investigation coming
- up with a name that they choose?
- Mr. Comey.
- I don't know.
- I never found -- I was curious
- about the name Midyear Exam, so I used to ask.
- Never found any
- reason to think it was connected in any way to the case or the
- circumstances of it.
- But there were -- as I said, there were
- other cases where I saw names -- I can't remember right
- now -- that seemed like they were tailored.
- This one didn't seem
- tailored to me.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Does the same answer apply to Crossfire
- Hurricane?
- Mr. Comey.
- Mr. Jordan.
- Yes.
- Okay.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey, I want you to have the benefit
- 230
- of the transcript.
- I highlighted my exchange with Mr. Baker on
- page -Mr. Kelley.
- was?
- Do you know what the date of this testimony
- The second day?
- Did he testify about this subject on the
- first day?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Mr. Comey.
- Where are we?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- right.
- He did not.
- Page 152.
- I'm sorry, sir.
- I asked the question:
- All
- And I have reason to believe that you originally believed
- it was appropriate to charge Hillary Clinton with regard to
- violations of the law, various laws, with regard to the
- mishandling of classified information.
- Is that accurate?
- Mr. Baker's answer was yes.
- Did you find that?
- Mr. Comey.
- I'm reading the rest where he explains.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- He does, and I will just -- the
- conversation continues, as you'll see, that he explained that
- you persuaded him that Hillary Clinton should not be charged
- after reviewing a binder of emails.
- Mr. Kelley.
- Could you point to the spot where it says Mr.
- Comey persuaded him?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- there.
- No.
- I'm not referring to the transcript
- I said I was paraphrasing it.
- Do you see that?
- Mr. Kelley.
- I'm sorry, I misunderstood the question.
- 231
- You're paraphrasing what?
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- the answer.
- So my question -- I read the question and
- The question was to Mr. Baker:
- I have reason to
- believe that you originally believed it was appropriate to charge
- Hillary Clinton with regard to violations of the law, various
- laws, with regard to the mishandling of classified information.
- Is that accurate?
- And his response was yes.
- Then I was commenting that he went on to explain that he
- had -- whether he was persuaded or changed his mind after
- reviewing a binder of emails.
- I was offering that in fairness
- to the witness.
- Mr. Kelley.
- I just thought -- maybe I misheard you.
- thought you said that Mr. Comey had persuaded him.
- I
- I didn't see
- that in the transcript.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I may have been mistaken.
- Do you recall, Director Comey, having a conversation with
- Mr. Baker about this issue?
- Mr. Comey.
- statement.
- I don't.
- I mean, I remember him editing my
- And he also -- he says here, I discussed it
- internally and eventually became persuaded that charging her was
- not appropriate, and he goes on to explain why.
- But I don't know
- with -- he says with a number of different folks.
- I don't know
- who he talked to.
- I don't remember him being of the view at any point that
- 232
- she should be prosecuted.
- But in any event, by the time we got
- to May, he definitely wasn't expressing that view.
- He was
- helping me understand how we might close this thing in a
- transparent way.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- So in your transcript statement, you closed
- your remarks by saying -- have you got those?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- -- that we, referring to the FBI, we did
- the investigation in a professional way.
- Only facts matter, and
- the FBI found them here in an entirely apolitical and
- professional way.
- Do you see that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yep.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- I got it.
- In light of the text messages of Agent
- Strzok and Attorney Lisa Page and Agent 1 and all of the folks
- that have been referred to today, do you still believe that?
- Mr. Comey.
- Yes, very much.
- Mr. Ratcliffe.
- Our time expired?
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- I'll just put this on the record now.
- This does not complete the questions that we have, and I know
- there have been some discussions about scheduling a second date
- and we would like to get that finalized for everybody's planning
- purposes.
- Mr. Kelley.
- Mr. Somers and I have spoken about that, and
- we've agreed to return on Monday, the 17th of December.
- But we
- 233
- would like to know in advance how much more, many rounds you need.
- I mean, we went through a full day today.
- Chairman Goodlatte.
- that.
- Got it.
- We'll do the best we can on
- And we will -Mr. Gaetz.
- have a question.
- Before we go off the record, Mr. Chairman, I
- The rules that I don't consider myself bound
- by but that were expressed earlier in the committee, do those
- carry over to the subsequent questioning of the witness, or is
- it the interpretation of the chairs that during the -- that this
- is a suspension of the questioning but not a suspension of the
- rules package which you believe binds the members?
- Mr. Goodlatte.
- I was just about to get to that.
- I think
- that the best way to proceed would be to release the transcript
- tomorrow, and it will be available at some point tomorrow, and
- that comment by Mr. Comey and anyone else is fair game after the
- conclusion of this.
- And then we'll impose the same rules when
- we get to the second one.
- Mr. Kelley.
- We agree that's appropriate.
- Mr. Goodlatte.
- Very good.
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- follow-up questions.
- Back on the record.
- Just two quick
- 234
- [4:29 p.m.]
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- At the end of the last round,
- Mr. Ratcliffe went through kind of a summary of what I
- interpreted to be his conclusions about the Clinton case.
- He
- went through Clinton misclassified information, she made false
- statements, the FBI knew that her staff had mishandled
- unclassified information.
- things.
- He went through a number of different
- At the end, he asked you about your decision not to move
- forward to prosecute or recommend prosecution of the case.
- I just wanted to clarify, when you were answering that, were
- you adopting that set of sort of summary comments by
- Mr. Ratcliffe or were you just commenting on that last bit?
- Mr. Comey.
- I was answering his question, which was, do you
- have a different view -- or do you have the same view of the case
- today, is what I understood it to be.
- And the answer is,
- absolutely, I do.
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- And just to be clear, I didn't hear
- you say any time during today that you had uncovered any proof
- that Secretary Clinton had made false statements.
- Is that
- accurate?
- Mr. Comey.
- That's correct.
- Ms. Sachsman Grooms.
- Okay.
- Thank you.
- That's all I had.
- We can go off the record.
- [Whereupon, at 4:38 p.m., the interview was recessed, to
- 235
- reconvene on Monday, December 17, 2018.]
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