Bright Red Line

3:51:18 PM→ Eriu has joined
3:51:18 PMⓘ http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/mike-shoesmith-i-believe-stephen-hawking-was-kept-alive-by-demoni...
3:51:32 PM@karstensrageit really seems like that
3:51:38 PM@karstensragei like you dude, youre just super annoying
3:51:50 PM@karstensragehe likes you?
3:51:59 PM@karstensragei have a hard time believing that
3:52:03 PMEriuI was discussing the legitimacy of killing Jon Bolton.
3:52:06 PMEriuIt made a chatroom real mad.
3:52:13 PM@karstensragewhat chatroom?
3:52:24 PMEriuI choose to not say at this time.
3:52:40 PM@karstensrageEriu, just say
3:52:42 PMEriuThey reminded me that Jon Bolton was using his free speech when he advocated -- a month ago -- for an illegal, pre-emptive strike against North Korea.
3:53:00 PMEriuYou'll recall that under the UN Charter, all state-state violence is illegal except in self-defense or with UNSC authorization.
3:53:06 PMEriuNeither applies, of course, in this cae.
3:53:11 PM@karstensragewhen are we so threatened by these criminals that we can start talking about that
3:53:25 PMEriukarstensrage: The time is now.
3:53:26 PM@karstensragei mean does anyone today argue it would not have been better to take out hitler?
3:53:34 PMEriuYes, some do.
3:53:45 PMEriuI think it's pretty obviously justified to kill Hitler at some point.
3:53:46 PM@karstensragewell not the fucking nazis
3:53:59 PMEriuThe real question for me is 'At what point was it justified?'
3:54:04 PMEriukarstensrage: There are other schools.
3:54:09 PM@karstensragelike?
3:54:13 PMEriuSome pacifist schools of Buddhism.
3:54:28 PMEriuSome non-action Indian philosophy.
3:54:32 PMEriuphilosphies*
3:54:37 PMEriuphilosophies
3:54:46 PMEriukarstensrage: I have created a thought experiment to help with this.
3:54:49 PM@karstensrageif you believe we are danger, but didnt a bunch of people think we were in the same level of danger with obama?
3:55:08 PMEriukarstensrage: The people who believed that with Obama hate evidence.
3:55:09 PM@karstensrageit was all silly of course in hindsight we know this
3:55:23 PM@karstensragebut who is to say whose fear is more valid
3:55:29 PMEriuTheir cognitive/social/communicative actions, while ostensibly similar to this conversation, were essentially different.
3:55:34 PMEriukarstensrage: The evidence says.
3:55:47 PMEriuIf you are in the Enlightenment school and its derivatives.
3:55:50 PM@karstensrageEriu, but they didnt see it that way, they FELT in mortal danger
3:56:10 PMEriukarstensrage: Our system can better model their experience than vice versa.
3:56:23 PM@karstensragewell ok whats your thought experiment
3:56:34 PMEriuAnd that is because ours is rooted in the correspondence model of truth coupled with the Enlightenment's view that human reason is helpful to understand the universe.
3:56:36 PM@karstensrageand whats the channel, dont be a baby
3:56:54 PM@karstensragewere all "friends" in here
3:57:02 PM@karstensrageexcept for YourMom we hate him
3:57:26 PMEriuEriu: Under current jurisprudence, I do the following: I grab a rock. I say, See that boy there? He is the son of my political enemy. Here is what I am going to do, fren: I am going to walk across this room and when I get within striking distance I am going to bash my rock into that child's cranium.
3:57:40 PMEriuNow, under current jurisprudence, we can use violence to stop this man at certain points.
3:57:53 PMEriuFundamentally, I recommend a greater inclusion of scientific understanding of causality into our jurisprudence.
3:58:13 PMEriuAnd, so, Jon Bolton writing an essay for war with North Korea, coupled with his selection as NSA, is him picking up the rock.
3:58:36 PMEriuAnd, so, it is understood that he is now in a chain of actions that leads to the bashing in of the craniums of hundreds of thousands of humans.
3:58:40 PM@karstensragei think hes picked up the rock and is heading across the room
3:58:45 PMEriuCorrect.
3:58:49 PMEriuHe is in mid-walk.
3:59:04 PMEriuThe optimal solution is to grab him and remove the rock without hurting him.
3:59:10 PM@karstensragewhats the scientific understanding of causality you want?
3:59:29 PM→ sysv has joined
3:59:31 PMsysvbitches
3:59:34 PMEriukarstensrage: Science allows us to push back causality further than in the folk wisdom that currently underlies much of the policies of our 18th century government.
3:59:34 PM@karstensrageits not a forgone conclusion he will actually bash the child, that would mean he is a sociopath
3:59:45 PMEriukarstensrage: We have to use an expected value calculation.
3:59:45 PM@karstensragehey sysv
3:59:52 PMsysvhey karstensrage  sup
4:00:03 PMEriuThe odds of him successfully executing his plan is perhaps 30% (we'd want a good model here).
4:00:17 PMEriuAnd then the death toll is in the hundreds of thousands according to DoD models of war with NK.
4:00:25 PMEriuTherefore, he has successfully killed about 100k people.
4:00:28 PMEriuEV
4:00:31 PMsysvdid i just walk into a nerdy discussion
4:00:49 PM@karstensrageno were discussing when it becomes imperative we stop hitler
4:00:55 PMsysvare we talking about kim jong blahblah?
4:01:00 PMsysvohivc
4:01:02 PM@karstensrageand iran
4:01:02 PMEriuThe current Western model of violence is that there should be a chain of escalation beginning with conversation/signaling.
4:01:04 PMsysvohic
4:01:14 PMEriuIf somebody asked me, What do you really want to have happen, Eriu?
4:01:33 PMEriuI would say, I would like injunctive relief against the Trump administration as we await multiple trials and the 2018 election.
4:01:47 PMEriuThe only mechanism I am aware of for such injunctive relief is by Congress, which is derelict.
4:01:49 PM@karstensragedo you think mattis will resist a lunatic like bolton?
4:02:01 PMEriuUnder Western models of violence, violence against members of the Trump administration is now authorized.
4:02:06 PM@karstensragedo you think those under mattis will respect mattis if he does resist?
4:02:11 PMEriuI don't know.
4:02:35 PMEriuJon Bolton is purging "disloyal" people.
4:02:35 PMsysvisn't bolton that dude that had something to do with that computer analytica company thats all over the news?
4:02:40 PMEriuDid you hear that from today?
4:02:44 PMEriuSeveral dozen.
4:02:45 PM@karstensrageyes
4:02:51 PM@karstensragecleaning house they called it
4:02:52 PMEriuThis is a calamity.
4:03:13 PM@karstensragei mean we could literally be watching the start of wwIII
4:03:14 PMEriuI am somewhat surprised that Mattis has not executed Trump in the Oval Office.
4:03:48 PM@karstensragei was watching a movie yesterday where koreans took the white house, i was rooting for the koreans
4:03:49 PMEriuIt's obviously justified to kill and and all people, given some criteria (and given general models of violence).
4:04:08 PMEriuThe American revolutionaries stated "no taxation without representation" -- a reasonable demand.
4:04:18 PMEriuHow about the humans in Seoul who might desire "no Holocaust without representation".
4:04:24 PM@karstensragei am being taxed to hell with no representation
4:04:30 PMEriuGlobal governments like America are beholden to the lives and interests of those that do not vote in our elections.
4:05:00 PM@karstensrageim in calfornia, we overwhelmingly did not vote for this fuckwad
4:05:05 PMEriukarstensrage: Did you see The Handmaid's Tale?
4:05:17 PMEriuThis piece of art had a profound effect on my worldview.
4:05:19 PM@karstensragecalifornia is so under represented its not even funny
4:05:23 PM@karstensrageno
4:05:26 PM@karstensragemyabe?
4:05:29 PMEriukarstensrage: We're not merely underrepresented.
4:05:47 PMEriuWe're now actively being targeted by the federal government for being too pro-Democrat.
4:05:47 PM@karstensrageare you in california as well?
4:05:54 PMEriuWhich includes making up entire realities by the POTUS.
4:05:59 PMEriuThat is, a kind of civil war.
4:06:03 PMEriuI life in California -- yes.
4:06:21 PMEriuThere is a scene in The Handmaid's Tale where the right wing extremists have bombed DC and taken over the government.
4:06:21 PM@karstensrageoh yeah it sucks, we do everyything right and fucking southern states got what they "wanted"
4:06:35 PMEriuPeople are non-violently marching against this repressive government.
4:06:47 PMEriuAt some point, agents of that government get fed up and use machine guns on those non-violent people.
4:06:50 PMEriuWhat does this scene teach us?
4:06:55 PMEriuWe cannot let it get to that point.
4:07:00 PMEriuSo, the Red Line has to be before that.
4:07:04 PM@karstensragewe cannot but they say , that is just a movie
4:07:04 PMEriuHere's what's weird, though.
4:07:13 PMsysvsounds like a netflix movie
4:07:15 PMsysvlol
4:07:18 PMEriukarstensrage: Governments use machine guns on people all the time.
4:07:28 PMsysveh? like where?
4:07:38 PM@karstensrageEriu, governments are not things that can use machine guns on people
4:07:40 PMEriusysv: Iraq, 2003.
4:07:44 PM@karstensragethats people doing that
4:07:56 PMsysvbrief me on what happened in 2003 in iraq
4:08:17 PMEriusysv: The W. Bush administration put pressure on the CIA to fabricate evidence of WMDs, which the CIA partially participated in.
4:08:30 PM@karstensragenever has it been clearer than this administration that this is a very few people that are seemingly destroying the world as we know it
4:08:36 PMsysvis this to do with saddam's WMD?
4:08:39 PMEriuThen, then-POTUS Bush used the 2003 SOTU to lie to the American people about nuclear weapons in Iraq -- which the CIA never provided evidence for.
4:08:57 PMEriuThen, in 2003 March, the American government used missiles and machine guns to kill lots of people in Iraq.
4:09:00 PMEriuThat's what happened.
4:09:37 PMEriuhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier#Allegations
4:09:49 PMEriu"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.[8]"
4:10:01 PMEriuThe famous "16 words".
4:10:13 PMEriuSo, we can't allow the government to get to that point in that artistic scene in Handmaid's Tale.
4:10:21 PMEriuSo, a Red Line of violence has to be before that.
4:10:29 PMsysvwhats your pooint though?
4:10:45 PMEriuSo, what are the primary types of non-violence to be used to change the government? Voting, primarily.
4:10:54 PMsysvi remember this incident where they may have miscalculated about the WMDs
4:10:57 PMEriuThe 2016 election was heavily hacked by foreign governments.
4:11:01 PMsysvbut fact of the matter is saddamn was a dick
4:11:02 PMEriuThe current government has done nothing in response.
4:11:02 PM@karstensrage miscalculated
4:11:05 PMsysvand he needed to go
4:11:08 PMEriuThe are no plans to secure the 2018 election.
4:11:14 PMEriusysv: I am saying that 2018 is the Bright Red Line.
4:11:24 PMsysvthe fuck is the bright red line?
4:11:33 PMEriuIf polling data shows that a Blue Wave is incoming, and that's not what occurs, we should see our government as our enemy.
4:11:50 PMEriusysv: It's the point at which you do not comply with any aspect of your government and resist at every level all of the time.
4:11:53 PMEriuUp to and including violence.
4:12:06 PMEriusysv: Does this seem radical to you?
4:12:11 PM@karstensragethe polling data showed that orange blob could not have one
4:12:13 PMEriuI'm paraphrasing the Declaration of Independence.
4:12:13 PM@karstensragewon
4:12:18 PMEriukarstensrage: That's not true.
4:12:24 PMEriu538 gave him a 30% chance morning of.
4:12:28 PMEriuAnd NYT gave him 18%.
4:12:34 PM@karstensrage2% leading up to
4:12:36 PMEriuFalse.
4:12:41 PMEriuThose models were wrong.
4:12:48 PMEriuThey assumed no correlation between state polls.
4:12:53 PMsysvas an immigrant
4:12:55 PMEriuThey can be considered 'fake news'.
4:13:06 PMEriuFor example, Princeton had like a 99% chance for Clinton.
4:13:09 PMEriuAnd every stated was uncorrelated.
4:13:09 PMsysvlet me tell you that you're in a safer country than anywhere else I can iomagiune
4:13:11 PMEriuTrash model.
4:13:11 PM@karstensrageso youre saying he won with no collusion?
4:13:25 PMsysvamericans dont appreciate the govt or the country they live in
4:13:26 PMsysvits sad
4:13:29 PMEriukarstensrage: Trump colluded with Russia.
4:13:31 PMsysvits almost mind boggling
4:13:38 PMEriuHe is a traitor and should be hanged from his neck after being found guilty.
4:13:48 PM@karstensragesysv, we love the country, we hate some if its residents
4:14:04 PMEriusysv: American currently has one of the worst governments in the developed world.
4:14:15 PMEriuWe are a big giant, though, and the decay is slow-moving.
4:14:21 PMEriuWe're mid fall.
4:14:26 PMsysvno we dont
4:14:34 PMEriuWe are the only nation on Earth not part of the Paris Climate Accords.
4:14:42 PMsysvwe have a better govt than most countries, asia, middle east, etc
4:15:00 PMEriu"developed world"
4:15:04 PMsysvwho gives a fuck if we're not part of the paris climate accords?
4:15:05 PMEriuI don't care if we're doing better than Ugana.
4:15:16 PMEriusysv: Everybody besides America.
4:15:19 PMEriuAnd most of America.
4:15:21 PMEriuThat's who gives a fuck.
4:15:29 PMEriuClimate change is one of the most dangerous things facing human civilization.
4:15:29 PMsysvi seriously think americans dont appreciate this country because thjey havent lived elsewhere
4:15:33 PMsysvfact
4:15:40 PMEriusysv: I don't want to appreciate trash.
4:15:51 PMsysvthey want more, they keep asking for more but haven't stepped outta their comfort zone
4:15:56 PMEriusysv: The Republican government is actively colluding with an autocracy in Russia.
4:16:00 PMsysvto know the shithole that goes around other countries
4:16:13 PMEriuRepublicans across the nation are pushing anti-democratic measures.
4:16:33 PMEriuSome of which have been described by federal courts as "straight out of 1910 Jim Crow" laws.
4:16:37 PMEriuThat was from 2016.
4:16:50 PMEriuThe NRA is a domestic terror organization.
4:16:57 PMEriuThey are colluding with Russia.
4:17:06 PMEriuThey use NRATV to spread Russian propaganda across our nation.
4:17:16 PMEriuThe goal of which is to foment civil strife to weaken NATO>
4:17:34 PMEriuWe have corruption and nepotism in the open.
4:17:44 PMsysvnow, in what way is it affecting you directly?
4:17:44 PMEriuWe have the Republicans closing the investigation into the Russian collusion.
4:18:04 PMEriusysv: Oh, I'm discussing the nation, currently.
4:18:07 PMEriuI'm not important at that scale.
4:18:15 PMEriu(You're trying a different tact to divert)
4:18:18 PMEriu(I won't engage)
4:18:21 PMsysvgo live in the middle east, claim you're gay and tell me how that goes
4:18:25 PM Ignoring sysv!*@*
4:18:32 PMEriusysv: I ended my conversation with you, as you have nothing for me.
4:18:48 PMEriuYour last post was a strawman fallacy.
4:18:54 PMEriuYou do this because you're terrible at debate.
4:19:01 PMEriuMy thesis has never mentioned "middle east".
4:19:13 PMEriuMy thesis was "America has one of the worst governments in the development world"