Cheers to the 7th
Yo , More like a thank you card from me to you for making my dreams come true. You making this community better day by day. You always try your best concerning ranked queues and the reform system. I love how on season 2 on my first account , I had an icon saying I was in the 20% of the most honorable players and like 2 seasons later after you first implemented the automatic bans I get my first permaban. I mean why no removing the tribunal a system that gave players around the world be the ''judge'' of the games and why not just throw that part to an automatic system to filter every bad word that is marked by our system just because some inters/trollers or even correct players decided to press the report button for me or any other guy who got perma-ed. Apart from that why league is the only game that even tho it's pegi-12 you make it look like Pegi-3 and even with pegi-3 chat u can get banned? I mean there is no other game banning people like this for behavior like this... I don't know if the devs have some kind of ego and they made the system to prove that league is an intellectual only game starring at all the other games from above.. but if that's not the case the system has so many holes that is just sad playing ranked queue while trembling of getting banned. The reason I say that is because of my experience (after having that many bans I literally got the full grasp of how it works) playing rankeds/normals has made me realise how unfair the system is. I'm not really saying that in my defense like oof I'm the victim here and stuff. I'm just stating that there are people out there flaming/inting/ruining games and just because none reports them they don't get any probations. If the system was fair it should be automatically triggered. Like no reports needed to ban someone that said something bad or blamed. But then I guess more than 60% of ur community would end up with permanent bans. So in the end we reach a rock bottom conclusion that your behavior system actually drives players from not communicating at all with each other just because they are afraid of getting chat mutes and bans. /Mute all will be the most common thing someone should say in the chat in order to play a game properly. But is it how this game should be? What's the point of having a 5v5 game if u are not a team at all in the end. Yeah well you can say that someone being toxic or blaming or stating out facts about the game is not really healthy for the games progression but neither having 0 communication at all. Or should people act as vigilante and queue up report everyone for negative attitude and just perma ban accounts for no reason at all? It's not like I care that much after so long because I already got another level 30 account up and waiting but nothing improved over the years. The toxicity remains , the inters remain and neither any improvement on the ranked queue. What's in for you as a game developer team? Like world wide people call the game the most toxic trashcan of games and that's a fact. I still play the game even tho I know it's true not only because of the community but because of the game devs as well that they literally implement systems without second thoughts. Tribunal was always a much better system maybe investing some more time into tribunal system would have been the best you literally implement things on a game that is driven by its community without asking for any advice/ideas from the community. I mean it is your game but the people who actually play it matter you know. You still wanna make profit out of it.. What's good in paying money for an account that I know its gonna get perma banned? My first account had around 560eur wasted in RP. My 2nd had 50eur and all the rest 6 accounts is like 10-20eur to XP boosts. I don't know if I'm that wrong with my whole idea about this , but please enlighten me. Ody
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AzureFae
June 03, 2019 16:16
Hey there,

Well that was a long read and I'll try and cover those concerns and hopefully I don't miss out on any of those. If I do skip over anything by mistake, you can let me know. You were right in the first part that we do try and improve the community every day and we do try our best to make sure that players are aware how serious their actions can be. It might not seem like it, especially in those cases you come across negative players often, but understand that the playerbase is large.

From personal experience it's not as bad as people make it out to be, but those bad games and negative players do have the tendency of sticking with us for longer or being more vocal. It's pretty much like a magnifying glass effect, but it doesn't define the entire community. You mentioned some of our old systems, that tribunal specifically, and I get that some players did have a feeling of accomplishment and a more visual representation of their input on the community through it, but the main reason we had removed it was because it was not as effective in fact. The success of the initiative wasn't as great and there were even situations some players weren't taking the cases seriously or it was the fact they did not fully understand our stance on negativity. Current punishment system may be harsh, but it's because we found it the most effective so far and that is helping the community. Of course there will be exceptions, I'm not saying there aren't. If a player is really set on it, it is possible for them to create a new account or a few and continue to be negative there, in which case we will take action on those accounts as well as normal. But overall it did help the majority reform, even after reaching a permanent suspension.

One of the reasons we advise players to mute the flamers or just focus on the game is mainly because arguing or just thinking of the bad situation not only ruins your own enjoyment of the game (even more that is) but arguing just makes it worse for the rest too. They don't want to listen? Fine, if that is how they want to be you can't control their actions but you can report them at the end. And no point in causing the team more grief than necessary. We're not saying that you can't talk with your teammates or have fun with them at all. You can still have fun with your team and still communicate with them, but not at the expense of causing others a bad experience or making fun of other players. That's the important part. So the mute option is there mostly for those players you see have a potential of upsetting you and that might make you say stuff you'll regret in the chat. It's a tool to help you keep calm and focus on what matters most.

I know you can't mute actions like inting or afking or trolling. I've been there too. While not often, I have had games with one player giving up and thus afking or trolling just cause they lost lane and even a match we were also left 3v5. Yeah, it doesn't feel great to have to play a match when other players are just giving up on it. But it did always bring a smile whenever I saw the enemy team also understanding the situation and still being respectful towards things. Or when even as just a team of 3 we did our best to remain positive and just play on like we normally did. Maybe we couldn't win, but we know we did our best and tried to put up a fight. And I knew those players will be punished too as well so no point in dwelling on the bad stuff. That is the kind of sportsmanlike behavior we want to encourage. Those bad matches are not fun in any way, but when the team stays strong and together during those situations it's what can influence the community in a positive way and give further hope.

For example think of this scenario. Let's say we have a new player around and they go into a game and suddenly someone starts flaming another. We have two possible outcomes here. The player could flame back, potentially causing a flame war, and thus already giving the impression all players are negative in the game and no point in being nice. Or they could simply focus on what matter, still try and keep the team's spirit up, setting an example for that new player and hope that there are still awesome players around and for them to be one of them. Players don't realize but staying strong and calm can go a long way for others that are reading in the chat and looking at how overall players act. In my opinion it makes quite the difference when it's just one player that is being negative opposed to the whole team fighting among themselves. Yes if you do meet even one negative player in multiple matches, they do still add up and still give a bad experience, but if you think about the other players that stay calm then you will see that it's not that the whole community is bad.

The community isn't perfect, like no online community is, and competitive games in general have a tendency to bring out the worst in people because they want to win so bad, but by retaliating in the chat it actually can make it worse. The report feature was implemented with a purpose afterall so there is no need to try and take matters in your own hand so to speak. And by that I mean those cases where players flame back or take other actions to "teach others a lesson". If you think logically no amount or arguing or flaming will make them more positive or a better player or a team player if they don't want to listen or they're already beyond the point of listening to reason. When players get too upset they can get irrational and so those further comments can actually trigger them more or they will completely shove it out of their mind. It's a shame when people don't use the report because yeah, that is one reason on how some players do get away with certain stuff and sometimes they even use the wrong categories when reporting too. But many times I have seen cases where they simply don't bother reporting the guy or they forget.

The reason why we don't have an automated system though is because that would actually do harm in certain situations. So reports are important to escalate the player because it does offer better data on the player's actions. Not to mention think of a scenario between premades that maybe have harsher jokes with each other. Close friends can have certain inside jokes and they could have a more inappropriate way of speaking, but if it's just among friends that they're talking and in their own chat and none of they are not causing harm to others outside their circles, of course we wouldn't punish those cases. It's a different matter if one of the friends is actually offended by what they say and that is why report would then help us know they were not okay with their friends talking that way still. That's just one example. It's a lot more complicate and automatic system can seem like a good idea at first but there are many things to take into account. Now as for that last part regarding purchases, well those are optional to begging with. Our system isn't dictated by purchases and money has nothing to do with behavior in the game. Whether you decide to invest or not, it's the player's choice, and regardless of that behavior is treated the same.

What we want is to reach that point where players are friendly with each other and helpful and use chat to make connections and help others improve, instead of just being angry over misplays or the occasional troll/flamer. Games are there to bring us together and at the end of it all it is a game and shouldn't be used to make other people's day worse.

AzureFae,
Riot Games Player Support Specialist

"Cats believe mirrors are weird doors."

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S1nful
June 03, 2019 18:04
First of all I wanna point out that I'm happy to see that the last 2 years the support has opted out from the robo replies to this matter because every time I was sending a support ticket it took 2 or 3 replies to actually get a human answer.

On to your points , yeah I can say that I vastly agree but there are some points they aren't flawless. For example you mention the mute button as an option to mute ''the'' flamer. Problem is that it's not only flamers who trigger the system but I have been even banned for blaming which was also considered a negative attitude when I asked why and what on the support section. No system is really flawless but what I wanted to call out when mentioning the tribunal was actually they system that is actually human-driven.

For example , tribunal was a human-driven system but it had a much larger difficulty of succeeding because as the time passed the community grew large much more reports came in and much less reports had someone to put their opinion on. But what if you implemented changes to the tribunal and actually tried to put inside the client with micro-rewards for those who actually pass down correct judgement? This thing is already implied to one of the biggest communities here that suffers from cheaters and griefers even tho it doesn't focus on the griefers. This way the community will be more interested in helping with those cases and after all you can always have someone checking out some weird cases if there is a big controversy to them.

Let's move on to the flaws of the system. I do get the idea of having a chat that could contain bad words but in the end makes no harm for example being premade and using harsh vocabulary , but that's not the case when you are not premade. When you play with your friends they won't report you because you said something to them or even went toxic to them.. I mean maybe in the discord? But there are some boundaries at least to the human world and not to an online game that don't match the systems trigger list. If someone is tilted even tho you typed like a couple of times in the chat you can still get a ban because you just said a ''fuck'' maybe because you died or something similar. Where I'm getting is that having a system being triggered only by a players will is almost like making a chat pegi-3 as long as you know someone will tilt and report just because he is tilted. I do understand that some times things go over the edge and it doesn't help none ''teaching'' a lesson or something to someone especially through the internet but you really call out for a healthy community but this community is rotten to its core.

I have been part of this community for 8 years and truth is that community was a lot better from season 2 to season 4-5. And I'm pretty sure you are aware that even the top tier players are being concerned about it having random people popping up to their games inting or the amount of people that actually get to be in the high spots. The well being of the community isn't something that is actually going to a good end. I mean since the whole toxic output went up it hasn't gone down. It's just spreads like fire and it's getting stronger by day. At least that's what I experience throughout the years...

Personally league is not as popular as it used to be, a lot of people including me have lost interest in such a community and focus more to the esports side watching both streams and LCK/worlds etc. The only reason that keeps me playing is that thought that some time I can actually pass the trolls inters and get to a rank that I will see much less people being bad or boosted trolling or inted and flaming most of the time. You can call that a masochist but that's what league is nowdays :P

Lastly I wanna call out on something you didn't really analyse.. The fact that more permanent bans are given to people that chat even if that means flaming/blaming/cursing , than inters/afkers. You literally ban someone who keeps on playing the game even tho someone literally loses someones game by staying afk on purpose or just go inting mode. That's the biggest problem here. The punishments are not carried out correctly at all. At least if you want to call it a ranked queue you should focus on what's doing the worst possible thing to lose the game. I don't think having a guy saying ''Oof 0/3 top again" will insta lose a game but having a guy going 0/10 just because someone didn't gank him or just because someone picked his champion or someone called out to him and blamed him for feeding , that is something that can potentially lose the game up to 100% chance of losing the game in higher elos. If I do watch my past I get more toxic near the divisions I get hardstuck because of needing people to win the game while getting guys that they are like either trolls or ''first time champion''. I never was that toxic to lower ranks because I knew that even tho I lost a game I know I will win many more in return since you don't need that much of skill to pass through those low tiers neither a team.

But seriously having a system that actually as a 3rd probation gives 14 days ban and the next one being a permanent ban to player who chats and inters/afkers actually get away almost every time is unquestionable. The worst possible thing you can do to ruin a community that's organized around a competitive queue is letting those people get away. That kind of thing fires up the toxicity even if u want it or not. And that's not me saying it only. A lot of streamers and high spot players call out to that too alongside some of the having the number 1 spot in challenger. So basically you have a community crying out to you about the inting part being more important than actually some words through internet because we literally talking about banning an account for ever (time invested doesn't matter) because there are people who are softer than others and can't handle it. In the end why would you ban a flamer if there is a mute button? Everyone is allowed to mute anyone at any time. It's simple to mute a flamer maybe the whole team mute him actually and keep on the game if the flamer was the problem. But that's where your logic is wrong. It's what I keep saying on the above paragraph. Toxic doesn't equal int. Toxicity in chat can be bad for your team but not as bad a guy inting. None assures you that just because someone flamed you , you gonna lose the lane just because a magic dragon came down and spit fire to your turrets and you.. That's just nonsense. Words are words and its the internet , its not a real table having a conversation and you have to act like a father figure punishing the little kids for saying bad words. Except if you do agree with me that almost the biggest part of the community is filled with kids which I'm not so sure about.

I guess I pretty much pointed most things out about what inting actually does to both your game and community. I know this message won't actually make any change to the fact that inters gonna keep doing what they are and still get away with the only way of getting them a ban or something is making a ticket here. I mostly pointed that out because I don't like the kind of hypocrisy I see from your side behaving like the flamers or toxic players are some sort of scums or bad guys that actually have that big of an impact in an online game , because that's just funny being part of different communities/games and seeing toxic people in all of them but only league actually pin-pointing them as the thing that makes a community bad.

In the end you can always make changes to the system but in the last 5 years nothing changed. Instead of having a more faulty proof system adding more focus to the actually thing that makes an impact to the game the inters you keep banning people on an internet platform for writing words and fighting in a chat. Apart from that the people who actually came up with the probation system probably don't even like the community because if someones toxicity is what makes him be such a bad guy just punish him by muting his chat for ever. But maybe even the devs trynna throw people away and back in with more toxicity? What's the point of banning for something that was happening in the chat or why in the world would you chat mute someone even tho it's not even a chat mute but he gets a message every 4 minutes?

That's all I had to say , again I'm really glad that I didn't get a copy pasta reply as always.
Ody

PS Please don't use my words against me by changing the meaning behind them. Talking about the purchases I never mentioned the purchases as something that you ''have'' to do or something like that. I only mentioned it as something someone would do if he felt like it or wanted more stuff. The reason I did that was to tell you that its much more likely to have your own profits going down because people would be less likely to do online purchases through such game.

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AzureFae
June 03, 2019 19:41
Hey again,

Well I try as best as I can. Sometimes it can seem like certain answers are more robotic because of dealing with general matters or general topics. So answers could be more formal or in that general direction and seem robotic as an outcome.

But anyway moving back to that conversation, well regarding that blaming others part, well that is indeed negative behavior as well so yeah, it can trigger punishments. Negativity itself is vast but if it's a comment that is simply aimed to put others in a bad light or further frustrate or mock players or simply to argue for the sake or arguing for example, then it's not really sportsmanlike behavior either if you think about it. And not really giving that positive influence to others like I mentioned.

Thing is that with the old Tribunal system we did try to have some incentive for the players that were taking part in it actually. It might have been one of the reason why some were not taking it seriously as well as a lot of times they would spam the cases just for the sake of the rewards. Regarding cheaters or grievers though, we have our way to investigate those and in the case players want to be absolutely sure they can also send over a ticket to make sure the game is properly reviewed, but there are situations where players mistake poor play too for griefing. I do get that maybe system is not perfect for all kinds of situations and that is where we come into, but I have also seen cases of players reporting for feeding or for "trolling" when in fact it was simply the fact they were playing the champion badly or had a tough time on lane or just made mistakes. And it's a lot more difficult to review those games I would say as it does involve looking into a lot of areas. And with the law changes for EU now regarding privacy it would also be a bit violation of that to give others access to private chats. Actually the law changes would probably stop us from doing any kind of tribunal like that again since even for cases of negativity in chat the privacy policy would stop us from sharing those. Well outside of the fact that previous attempt at the system didn't go as well.

Regarding that premade part though "When you play with your friends they won't report you because you said something to them or even went toxic to them" ... that's not always the case actually. Could be that player is simply the friend of a friend and isn't really into the type of jokes they do or could be one of those friends goes too far with their words. However there might be some misconception on how the system functions as a whole there. It's not the report alone that will trigger the punishment, it does trigger if there is negativity in the chat as well. Now if there is a mistake and we do see that we do always try and correct those, but those are really rare. Players can see that they use "fuck" in the chat (to use your example) but it could be a mix of other stuff they said there that were targeted towards the team and not exactly the best way to interact with them.

I've been around from Season 3 so to speak and honestly I didn't see that much of a change or as drastic as people see. I do remember even back then I would get players that flamed me or blamed me for playing badly. Like I remember trying Ahri for the first time and it almost made me not want to pick up the champion again. I think it could simply be the fact that maybe playerbase grew from back then so there are more chances to come across those types. But most of my games do turn out to be pretty passive (nobody says much regardless how bad we're doing) or with some friendly chat now and then or a joke. But then again that is my personal experience and I do get that others might not have been as fortunate. But those bad games do tend to affect us more. As you can see I do still remember that game with Ahri from back in Season 3 so again there is the perception factor.

I still play the game whenever I get the chance. I am quite busy at times and I won't deny that I also play other stuff cause I am a gamer at heart and love multiple type of genres. Of course how you enjoy the game is subjective but for example in the cases where I have a teammates that's either trolling or negative, I stop to think that even in that situation I am still playing one of my fav champs (maybe even a cool skin) and I can still practice that champ even if the outcome doesn't look good. Yeah it's not a great feeling when team is not working together, but there are ways you can try and look into the good to help you stay calm. I guess it's because in my case it's the overall lore and champion designs that pulled me in to begin with so for me it feels like I am playing for the sake of the champion as well, like we're partners, if you know what I mean. ^^

I don't deny that the inters have their fault and I won't say they shouldn't be punished harshly, but it's just that having even negativity in chat atop that can do even more damage you know. But maybe in the future the system will improve even further. I can see that you do have quite the feedback and the team does actually look into those things even if it's not as visible on the outside. So I actually do recommend you post all those ideas and situations it could apply in and all that on the Boards in fact. Yeah even if you don't get a reply from the dev team or anything, it can still help a lot and it can help when they see reaction from others in that thread. I personally can't really influence the system as it is, but maybe with time. Cause imagine that we also do want to have a pretty fun and positive game overall.

P.S. Sorry if that phrasing on the money seemed a bit bad. Didn't mean to say you in particular but that in general purchases don't influence the system regarding behavior as it is and that we don't base it off of that. It's not about what brings in more money or whether they'll invest in the future or not, it's about having the right punishment system that could potentially help the community change for the better.

AzureFae,
Riot Games Player Support Specialist

"Cats believe mirrors are weird doors."