[11:06] @Haruno: Oh piex
[11:06] @Haruno: as a certified gen 1 player
[11:07] @Haruno: help me answer this dubs related question
[11:07] @Haruno: how can the people that constantly bitch about hax, justify not banning skymin and cite air slash flinches as competitive.
[11:08] @Haruno: I have been struggling to answer this for past week
[11:09] Disaster Area: hmmm
[11:09] Disaster Area: well they can't justify it
[11:09] Disaster Area: they constantly bitch about hax
[11:09] Disaster Area: therefore their point is invalid
[11:09] Disaster Area: or at least, it is irrelevant what point they make as they clearly don't understand enough to comment
[11:10] Disaster Area: i've seen people bitch about hax in situations where the odds are actually against them, e.g.
[11:10] Disaster Area: take this example
[11:10] Disaster Area: mob barley vs a friend of mine on OU ladder
[11:10] Disaster Area: in endgame, basically jirachi needs to get
[11:10] Disaster Area: 2 out of 3 iron heads to flinch
[11:10] Disaster Area: to win
[11:11] Disaster Area: mob loses and complains about hax since 2/3 was gotten
[11:11] Disaster Area: but the odds weren't even in his favour
[11:11] Disaster Area: he had about 1 in 3 chance of winning
[11:11] Disaster Area: but he still made the other player feel like shit
[11:11] @Haruno: Sounds like my hero zamrock
[11:11] @Haruno: but yeah idk, I don't get dubs players
[11:12] Disaster Area: I think what it is haruno in some ways is
[11:12] @Haruno: not to mention they think mons is a competitive game which is baffling to me
[11:12] Disaster Area: well let me make a couple of comparisons
[11:12] Disaster Area: first compare like gen 6 ou to gen 1 ou, there's a lot more going on in gen 6 ou
[11:12] Disaster Area: a lot more to think about
[11:12] Disaster Area: probability's complex and deep and it's challenging to explore during a match
[11:12] Disaster Area: therefore small generalisations, 'plays', etc. are more in the player's focus of mind
[11:13] Disaster Area: then when 'hax' happens they call it hax even when it's likely to happen at some point
[11:13] Disaster Area: just because there's so much other information to deal with that it's an overload
[11:13] @Haruno: the existence of hax
[11:13] Disaster Area: I feel like doubles is in some ways that on steroids as games are much shorter
[11:13] Disaster Area: so the effect is much greater
[11:13] Disaster Area: also about
[11:13] @Haruno: already makes me doubt mons as a fundamentally competitive game
[11:13] Disaster Area: 'mons being a competitive game'
[11:13] Disaster Area: well
[11:13] Disaster Area: whilst this is much less important for gen 6 say
[11:14] Disaster Area: in gen 1 where the game's been played for 18 years
[11:14] Disaster Area: it contributes hugely to non-solvability
[11:14] Disaster Area: i.e. it keeps the game interesting and leaves it room to develop, strange as it sounds
[11:14] Disaster Area: otherwise it'd be like an advanced tic tac toe more or less
[11:14] Disaster Area: where the optimal strategy is found or
[11:14] Disaster Area: maybe something not quite like that but
[11:14] Disaster Area: you get the picture that
[11:14] @Haruno: another problem with me finding a game as competitive is the humongous amount of coinflips
[11:14] Disaster Area: it becomes dull because there's only so much possible variation
[11:15] Disaster Area: haruno let me say now why I really don't mind
[11:15] Disaster Area: you complaining about hax in gen 6
[11:15] @Haruno: like to me a competitive game is a game where the better player should win
[11:15] Disaster Area: even though it's likely
[11:15] Disaster Area: is because there's so much other information related stuff
[11:15] Disaster Area: that I don't think the extra depth of complexity
[11:15] Disaster Area: the probability adds
[11:15] Disaster Area: is anywhere near as nessecary
[11:15] Disaster Area: so I can see why one would rather have it gone even when
[11:15] Disaster Area: thinking in the long term
[11:16] Disaster Area: let me also comment on [11:15] @Haruno: like to me a competitive game is a game where the better player should win
[11:16] Disaster Area: I disagree and agree in different ways
[11:16] @Haruno: like I would consider haxmons a far more competitive metagame than er any tier
[11:16] Disaster Area: again one part of me agrees because probability is a layer of complex information too much in later generations
[11:16] Disaster Area: but one part disagrees
[11:16] Disaster Area: as understanding that layer of information is part of what can make someone
[11:16] Disaster Area: a better player
[11:16] Disaster Area: the thing is tho is that
[11:17] Disaster Area: that only really matters at
[11:17] Disaster Area: the highest level usually
[11:17] Disaster Area: if at all
[11:17] Disaster Area: in gen 6
[11:17] @Haruno: probability outside of either players control is what makes me doubt it at all
[11:17] Disaster Area: in like gen 3 say u can just about see its effects
[11:17] Disaster Area: of players taking probability into account
[11:17] @Haruno: which is why I would probably consider haxmons as say more competitive by nature
[11:17] Disaster Area: in gen 1/2 it's a huge part of the game
[11:17] Disaster Area: anyway haruno uhh this might interest you is
[11:18] Disaster Area: you vaguely aware of BAM my project over the past year or so
[11:18] @Haruno: vaguely
[11:18] Disaster Area: a lot of what's driving me at the moment is the idea of making
[11:18] Disaster Area: pokemon sorta like it is now but with less hax without it
[11:18] Disaster Area: being so p[hilosophically difficult for people and causing
[11:18] @Haruno: im mostly curious because the average/most dubs players view of competitive is so far out there that I can't fathom it
[11:18] Disaster Area: ebic arguements on smogon
[11:19] Disaster Area: i mean there's a lot more to it than that
[11:19] Disaster Area: but the idea is I guess to make it so that
[11:19] Disaster Area: it's a competitive game at every level that doesn't
[11:19] Disaster Area: infuriate people
[11:19] Disaster Area: so there's 'hax' but it's lesser, e.g. no full para's, useful moves are much more accurate in general
[11:19] Disaster Area: so as a weaker player when you're going to bitch about hax it's more likely to be legit which pisses everyone off a lot less
[11:20] @Haruno: well that's kinda why I mentioned haxmons
[11:20] Disaster Area: but at the same time when it eventually reaches higher level after
[11:20] Disaster Area: years fo play
[11:20] Disaster Area: there's still
[11:20] Disaster Area: solvability
[11:20] @Haruno: as a more competitive Meta
[11:20] Disaster Area: *unsolvability
[11:20] Disaster Area: ye but haruno if smogon made haxmons their OU for the sake of arguement
[11:20] @Haruno: since as opposed to outside factors changing outcomes of games
[11:20] Disaster Area: in a year the game would be really dull
[11:20] Disaster Area: because it would be complex tic tac toe
[11:20] @Haruno: haxmons is more coinflip dependent
[11:21] @Haruno: since it is devoid of hax
[11:21] Disaster Area: ye predictive hax i guess u might call it is
[11:21] @Haruno: which removes a good amount of variables into mons
[11:21] Disaster Area: an important thing
[11:21] Disaster Area: that's what happens when
[11:21] Disaster Area: you remove regular hax
[11:21] Disaster Area: which is why I say
[11:21] Disaster Area: about solvability
[11:21] Disaster Area: trouble is that
[11:21] Disaster Area: probability in say gen 6 smogon doubles
[11:22] Disaster Area: goes far beyond affecting
[11:22] Disaster Area: solvability
[11:22] Disaster Area: and into
[11:22] Disaster Area: infuriating people every match
[11:22] Disaster Area: and people's warped intuition of probability
[11:22] Disaster Area: is truly shown
[11:23] Disaster Area: so haruno i don't
[11:23] Disaster Area: follow doubles too closely these days
[11:23] Disaster Area: i assume the people in charge are a bit brighter than the rest of the community
[11:23] Disaster Area: (dodgy assumption but bear with me okay)
[11:23] @Haruno: well
[11:23] Disaster Area: why is it that skymin was suspected
[11:23] Disaster Area: can you explaint o me in both
[11:23] @Haruno: uh..........
[11:23] Disaster Area: official and more casual/experience-based terms?
[11:24] Disaster Area: is it basically just
[11:24] Disaster Area: what it would do in OU
[11:24] Disaster Area: but less extreme
[11:24] @Haruno: Skymin has always been infamous for its Air Slash, with a whopping 60% chance to flinch (before accuracy). Its Seed Flare came to prove itself as a just as deadly weapon, with a drop chance higher than Focus Blast's chance to hit
[11:24] @Haruno: and incredible Speed letting Skymin's partner take advantage of it. However, Skymin is a little on the frail side, and has numerous weaknesses.
[11:24] @Haruno: just copying and pasting op
[11:24] Disaster Area: ty
[11:25] Disaster Area: basically is it just a worse version of scarf lando rock slide
[11:25] Disaster Area: ?
[11:25] @Haruno: worse as in not as effective as lando-t? In which case i'd agree
[11:25] Disaster Area: okay so now I understand your point of view very clearly indeed
[11:26] Disaster Area: so if it's
[11:26] @Haruno: for the record i think rock slide and twave are bannable
[11:26] Disaster Area: less effective than lando-t
[11:26] Disaster Area: why do people find it suspect worthy?
[11:27] @Haruno: hax apparently
[11:27] @Haruno: which is weird
[11:27] Disaster Area: lol
[11:27] @Haruno: considering people are arguing that its hax factor should not be considered in its suspect status
[11:27] @Haruno: since it's over 50% so it's not hax
[11:28] Disaster Area: okay so
[11:28] Disaster Area: how many people in your community
[11:28] Disaster Area: aren't idiots
[11:28] Disaster Area: that understand how probability works and how to argue?
[11:28] @Haruno: uh
[11:28] @Haruno: zero
[11:28] Disaster Area: does that number include yourself or not?
[11:29] @Haruno: it does
[11:29] @Haruno: mostly because i follow totem's step by step guide
[11:29] @Haruno: to suspects
[11:29] @Haruno: to the dot lol
[11:29] Disaster Area: okidokes
[11:29] Disaster Area: explain that? :O
[11:29] @Haruno: oh
[11:29] @Haruno: it's a glorious post
[11:30] @Haruno: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ideas-for-funny-things-to-do-as-a-joke-style-reqs-screenshot.3540553/#post-6265352
[11:30] @Haruno: this post was fantastic
[11:30] @Haruno: dont think ive met a person so far that didnt think this wasnt gold
[11:31] Disaster Area: ugh it's in
[11:31] Disaster Area: firebot/is isn't it
[11:31] @Haruno: yh
[11:31] Disaster Area: damn I can't see then :/
[11:31] @Haruno: ill take a pic for you
[11:32] Disaster Area: wonderful
[11:33] @Haruno: http://i60.tinypic.com/2wedzcw.jpg
[11:34] @Haruno: http://i59.tinypic.com/n53sqr.jpg
[11:34] Disaster Area: tyvm
[11:34] @Haruno: it is a stellar post
[11:36] Disaster Area: that is
[11:36] Disaster Area: stellar
[11:36] Disaster Area: the like count is underwhelming for
[11:36] Disaster Area: its quality
[11:37] @Haruno: yh
[11:37] @Haruno: but i and pretty much every dubs suspect posted follows this guide rofl
[11:38] Disaster Area: lmao