Conflict resolution with xsnlx (over transgenderism)

innit 19:08:27
I responded with my quip which I intended as a person attack @ "Might you be transgender?"
I had said this previously: "There's a reasonable amount of emotional states and anti-science denial in the community that persistently irks me."
I was connecting euphony's objectional emotional reaction to that thesis.
xsnlx: I will now read your posts.
xnslx: I don't understand how I have violated that value.
xsnlx 19:09:52
https://www.businessinsider.com/intelligence-veterans-react-trump-tweet-iran-launch-pad-briefing-pho...
innit 19:10:05
Here's my fundamental issue, xnslx: I believe I act with very high integrity, yet you seem to punish me.
I think you do this because you're generally swayed by group attitudes.
Which I consider invalid.
xsnlx 19:10:23
innit, A. living in the past, B. not loving fearlessly, C. not creating nor sharing beauty
innit 19:10:34
Okay.
Do you feel I violated those values of yours before asking you about the transgenderism update?
Because you didn't respond to that.
I don't understand that.
If somebody asked me that, I would ensure them that saw their post, as they're demonstrating a good intellectual nature.
I want to encourage good dialogues and good relationships, and ignoring people who don't misbehave is inappropriate.
Leading me to ask if you perceive I've misbehaved for your standards.
Then, I wanted you to articulate those standards to see if they're compatible with my own.
xsnlx 19:12:21
innit, Pro Tip:  Among hoomans, their emotional and social life is far more important than abstract concepts and scientific structured thinking
innit 19:12:28
Obviously.
I don't have debates about transgenderism with such people.
Are you such a person?
Among most humans, by the way.
Humans are diverse and not all act that way.
xsnlx 19:13:07
I am a human, and a homind, and a primate, and a mammal and an animal
innit 19:13:33
There are many human systems which strive to be something more than our basal selves.
You could argue the entire philosophical project has that aim.
But, you didn't answer the question.
You hinted at the answer.
You generally dislike this level of introspection/questioning, from my previous interactions with you.
xsnlx 19:14:28
yes, and every one of those systems is awash in very human systems, and infested with very human humans
innit 19:14:59
Yes, we're a mixture of different impulses.
I will return to your three articulated values.
I don't see how updating an unfinished debate is "living in the past".
Though, I agree with that value to some extent.
I am not sure how my update is related to loving or not loving fearlessly.
If anything, I would say it's closer to "loving fearlessly".
It's easier to close down and call people assholes, as euphony did.
It's harder to remain open.
xsnlx 19:16:23
innit, if your ego was not engaged, you would have no urge to rehash/perfect/win a discussion from yesterday
innit 19:16:28
I think my intellectual contributions in the update were beautiful.
* innit reflects for a moment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGZJasrDbVw
Here's a Buddhist electronic song you might enjoy listening to.
xnslx: I agree with you that "rehashing" and "winning" are impulses connected to ego, but I disagree that perfecting necessarily is.
Many thoughtful systems (both religions and philosophies) have perfection as one of the ideals.
To the point, though, none of those three reasons are why I provided that update.
xsnlx 19:18:42
if you were prefecting your relationship to the eternal, I might agree with you, but you're polishing a turd
innit 19:18:50
I wanted to bring your attention go the fact that you're fundamentally guessing my intentionality with that post, but I can just state my intentionality.
I think it would be better to ask me my intentionality, instead of guessing it.
* innit notes your usage of turd
* innit notes its a word correlated with various emotional states that I think are undesirable
xsnlx 19:19:40
I don't have to guess, there is not other motivation besides ego to have such a discussion
innit 19:19:42
Usually something like 'a fundamental frustration with the other not getting something important and obvious'.
I see.
* innit reflects for a moment
I am ready to state my intentions:
Cognitive neuroscience has indicated there are left brains and right brains. This was done by allowing people to self-define or be measured for leftness and rightness in the traditional system, and then performing measurements of the brain (neuroscience) or their behavior (cognitive) and correlating those signals with the prior definition.
I have a leftist brain.
xsnlx 19:21:36
the original discussion was a feigned confusion/nettle over something (transgender people) that threatens your ego and some of your base beliefs...both are hopelessly mired in ego
innit 19:21:55
Leftist brains are characterized by high degrees of openness, care for the vulnerable, and other traits.
Furthermore, in my political worldview, I think one of the most effective ways of constraining abusive states is to 'use' vulnerable groups as canaries in the coalmine, i.e. focus on their rights instead of rights in the abstract.
If you can ensure your society is just for the vulnerable, it will be just for all with high likelihood.
Transgender individuals are a historically abused group -- perhaps more so than homosexuals which is quite high.
It's critically important to me to not use abusive language to hurt vulnerable people.
There is a pattern in our societies that people may use language they don't understand is offensive.
I care about that.
It was alleged I was doing that, which I thought was possible, due to the above pattern, but unlikely.
I engaged the original discussion, and then did 25 minutes of additional research to ensure I was doing something that would violate my code.
This was my fundamental motivation.
My secondary motivation was to provide an example of excellent thinking for others to observe as motivation.
xsnlx 19:24:37
ego
innit 19:24:48
Let me now read your posts you made while I was typing.
xsnlx 19:24:51
"for others to observe as motivation." omfg
→ Mitino has joined
innit 19:25:13
I think we may have reached a stuck point.
You're repeating the word ego often.
xsnlx 19:25:22
cool, move on
innit 19:25:51
That's one option.
I'm thinking.
xsnlx 19:26:36
one I see someone with their foot stuck in a gopher hole, it's entirely possible that "gopher hole" could keep popping up in the conversation
innit 19:26:42
The fundamental problem that I can identify in this discussion is that you're asserting your philosophical understanding of the world as 'the way things are'.
That is, I don't feel you're especially open to alternatives on some of the key points.
Do you think that's accurate at all?
@ deusexbee 19:27:18
Lycanthrope, one thing I might suggest in the future - which I learned from a priest - is that when you find yourself cursing somebody, to follow it up quickly with a blessing for them
innit 19:27:46
xsnlx: How do you feel right now
@ deusexbee 19:27:48
that way you'll improve your ability to react in a positive way over time
it's a form of self-discipline
innit 19:28:05
deusexbee: That is excellent advice.
Buddhism has a compassion prayer for that purpose.
https://blog.buddhagroove.com/the-buddhist-metta-lovingkindness-prayer/
I have said this about somebody that was attacking me obsessively.
It was hard.
@ deusexbee 19:29:28
Lycanthrope, nowadays i am finding myself thinking "that idiot just cut me off in traffic" and then I remember what just happened and say "may God bless him/her"
innit 19:29:33
It partially dissolved their emotions.
deusexbee: The ideals of Christianity are excellent for cultivating those attitudes.
xsnlx 19:30:32
koalas
* 19:30:36
Ignoring xsnlx
No longer ignoring xsnlx
innit 19:31:09
xsnlx: Do you care about relationship advice provided from Western psychology?
innit 19:32:13
I find it quite difficult to navigate conflict with you, xsnlx.
xsnlx 19:32:20
innit, what brings you joy?
innit 19:32:30
The metaphysics you act out during conflict resolution are quite far from the metaphysics I'm acting out.
I think that is a good question.
I feel joy when non-humans of different species treat each other with kindness.
It reminds me that there is hope for this universe.
→ Forest` has joined
ⓘ ChanServ gives ops to Forest`
@ Forest` 19:33:30
hello
xsnlx 19:33:34
gyrus, we all have the "chattering monkey" in our brain, but we are not the chattering monkey
innit 19:34:00
xsnlx: You are not answering the questions I ask you.
Why are you doing that?
* 19:34:26
Ignoring xsnlx
innit 19:34:35
xsnlx: I disengage from interacting with you at this time.
You have very low levels of compassion at this time and it feels very alien and cold to me and I fundamentally don't understand it.
I seem to have these deep Christian metaphysical impulses in my mind (the impulses are more ancient than the Christian expositions on them) and I leverage them deeply in conflict resolution.
@ deusexbee 19:35:51
bradmaj, you're just bitter because i took all your geld last time we played dreidel!
innit 19:36:05
I find that a very high portion of Homo sapiens get very defensive, especially if they're male, as their compassion is a vulnerable and weakness they believe.
I think this attitude is destroying the planet.
@ Forest` 19:36:15
i don't think i've happened into so many equally strange conversations going on at once ever before o.O
innit 19:36:32
Forest`: Are you Christian? I can't remember.
@ Forest` 19:36:36
no
never
innit 19:36:39
Okay.
@ Forest` 19:36:47
which one is?
@ deusexbee 19:36:51
innit, my present prediction is that schadenfreude will be the downfall of America
innit 19:37:00
It will be the downfall of our species.
@ Forest` 19:37:02
bradmaj isn't he on akick?
@ deusexbee 19:37:09
yes, quite possibly
these diseases of heart must be eradicated
we can only do that if we choose to work on our own characters
otherwise we are doomed
innit 19:38:05
I think Christ provides a good metaphysical/narrative for the compassionate ideal, at least in part.
@ deusexbee 19:38:05
Lycanthrope, you should go to a greek orthodox monastery, they do just that
kyrie eleisons for like 6 straight hours
innit 19:39:07
Forest`: I recommend that we try to set down past conflicts we've had with others, when they demonstrate effort, and try to make for more peaceful communities.
Being on akick for events nobody can remember from 3 years ago is not acting towards our highest ideals.
ⓘ Debates has unbanned *!*mibbit*@*
@ deusexbee 19:40:23
Lycanthrope, here's a 5 minute version for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPMZaYqWr0
@ Forest` 19:40:25
lol Euphony_. It doesn't take much to confuse those people on that subject.
innit 19:41:14
I think one thing that I value about Christians is that, even though they don't follow it very often, they have a very powerful of a compassionate ideal they can potentially connect with.
@ deusexbee 19:41:18
technically this is "russian orthodox" and not "greek orthodox" but most people here aren't going to care
innit 19:41:38
I think a lot of atheists and secular people, which being more compassionate on average, the data shows, don't have as powerful an archetype to points towards in difficult times.
With Christians and Buddhists there's always the potential to remind the person, "Be more like Christ", or "Be more like Buddha."
Thanks for taking the time to engage me in that conversation, xsnlx -- those kinds of conversations can be difficult.