> Hey, Sorry to hear about your situation man. I think that'll turn into my situation too once I tell my parents - which is why I'm truly trying to understand everything, you know?

I really hope when the situation arises that Allah will make it easy for you. InshAllah he will guide us all to his path.

> I asked the Ismaili Gnosis people your question - cause it was a good one - and I've pasted their answer below. I think what they are saying makes sense. What you do you think?

Great idea! I will read it and formulate my thoughts/opinions.

> The verse 2:165 uses the words "min dun Allah" which means "other than God" or "apart from God". This is an important expression because, in its historical context, it is talking about the Arabians who worshipped idols. It is not talking about the Ismaili belief in the Imams.

Well, let us take a closer look at the full verse:
>And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . And if only they who have wronged would consider [that] when they see the punishment, [they will be certain] that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is severe in punishment.

So what IG is saying here is that the Imams are not other than Allah, and that when we worship the Imams we are worshipping Allah. After all, we do give the love the love due to Allah to the Imams, am I wrong? Look at some of our tasbhis:

"Yâ Hayyul-Qayyum, Yâ Aliyul Azim,
Yâ Sahebuz-Zaman, Yâ Hazar Imam
(O the Ever-living, the Eternal! O the Most High, the Supreme!
 O Lord of the Age, O Present and Living Imam)"

All of the above titles are **not** addressed to Allah, but “Ya Hazar Imam.” This means that the only way this would not apply to the verse above (since only Allah has the right to be called by those names) is if the Imam himself **is** Allah. So the point that IG has made here is that they believe that the Imams are not just an intercessor or mediator, but that the role of the Imam is that he is by-definition Allah.

> According to the Quran, the Prophet Muhammad is not "other than God". So whatever reverence, respect, obedience, love, etc. that a believer showed for Prophet Muhammad was accepted as reverance, respect, and obedience and love for God. There is ample Qur'anic proof that whatever the Prophet does in terms of guidance, judgments, commands, accepting allegiance, accepting people's offerings when they seek forgiveness of their sins --- the Prophet does so ON BEHALF of God. If you want a full list of the Qur'anic material that proves how the Prophet Muhammad is the living representative of God on earth while he is alive, then check out this article: https://ismailignosis.com/2014/01/13/the-prophet-unveiled-what-the-quran-says-about-muhammad/

Now, what he has said here is very very problematic in terms of Islamic and Quranic thought. To start off with, let's look at his first point : “According to the Quran, the Prophet Muhammad is not "other than God”.” I just want to mention that anyone who has read the Quran or the Seerah has the basic human cognitive ability to understand that the message of Allah is very simple, which is very firmly defined by our declaration of faith:
> There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

I’m sorry, but does this say anywhere that Muhammad is the same as God? In fact, the reason that the Quran cites for claiming that the message that Allah sent down has been misunderstood is because they saw Jesus as more than a messenger - the biggest sin in God’s book:

When addressing how the Christians see Jesus as the son of God and as a part of his spirit, the Quran mentions:

> Never did God take unto Himself any offspring,  [52] nor has there ever been any deity side by side with Him: [for, had there been any,] lo! each deity would surely have stood apart [from the others] in whatever it had created,  [53] and they would surely have [tried to] overcome one another! Limitless in His glory is God, [far] above anything that men may devise by way of definition,  [54] - 23:91

And my favorite verse on the topic, because there is no way that IG can create some BS story to support his side against it, is 5:75 :

> The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

My favorite part of this verse is “They both used to eat food.” God is literally saying that they were mortals just like us, who ate food and were created of clay. They were not but messengers! And those who believe otherwise are deluded.

Now moving on to his next point in the previously cited paragraph:

> So whatever reverence, respect, obedience, love, etc. that a believer showed for Prophet Muhammad was accepted as reverance, respect, and obedience and love for God. There is ample Qur'anic proof that whatever the Prophet does in terms of guidance, judgments, commands, accepting allegiance, accepting people's offerings when they seek forgiveness of their sins --- the Prophet does so ON BEHALF of God.

Now on this, I actually **agree** with IG. Muhammad (SWT) *did* offer to pray for his followers and ask for their forgiveness, and he did this entirely on God’s authority. However, the concept he is trying to connect this to is how we ask for forgiveness in Jamatkhanas. But there is a big difference:

If I wanted to ask the Prophet (SWT), or literally anyone else for that matter, to pray for me, how would I phrase it?

When people went to the Prophet (SWT) for prayers, they would phrase it along the lines of “Oh Prophet, please pray that my family and I can be guided to Allah’s path.” Which is perfectly fine and well within the bounds of Islam.

But when we go to a Jamatkhana, how do we phrase our prayers?

“I the humble slave prepend, for I am sinful from head to my toes, oh Shah (Ya Shah/Hazar Imam/Aga Khan) forgive me for you are the forgiver”

….

During Chatha, Mukhisaheb says “Mawlana Hazar Imam tumhara kul gunao ko maaf kare”


…



Where is God in this picture? All I see is that we are praying *to* the imam, not Allah… He is not praying for us, but instead we are just sending our prayers directly to him, which is something they definitely did **not** do in the Prophet’s time.

Next point:

> In fact, the Quran and the Hadith make it a requirement for believers to submit to, obey and love Prophet Muhammad more than their love for anything else in the world. The Qur'an in 33:6 says:
> "The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own souls."
> "Love God for what He nourishes you with of His Blessings, love me due to the love of God, and love the People of my House (ahl al-bayt) due to love of me." (From the Sunni Hadith Book Tirmidhi Book 49, Hadith 4158)
> So the Prophet is actually telling people to LOVE HIM for God's sake, and to LOVE the Ahl al-Bayt -- his family and descendants -- for his sake. So when people today love the Imams, who are the Prophet's Ahl al-Bayt, they are doing so for God's sake and the Prophet's sake, not for the Imam's own sake.

I agree with him on this. We should love the Prophet (SWT) and his family limitlessly, no question in that. But does having love for them translate to seeing them as God?

… I dont think so


> As for prayers, this is another issue. To be very general, when we pray to the Imam we are not worshipping the Imam. We are actually calling on the Imam because he is a mediator (called Shafi'i and Wasilah in Arabic) between God and humankind and God's blessings reach us and flow to us THROUGH the soul of the Imam.

I have already adressed this earlier. We do not see the Imam as a mediator but as Allah himself, as the “everliving and eternal” and “reliever of difficulties”. Our prayers are not even addressed to asking him to pray for us, but addressed to him directly.


> The Qur'an says that the Prophet can forgive sins

Interesting. There are one billion muslims in the world but apparently noone has ever been enlightened of this knowledge except for the glorious Khalil Andani himself. Lets take a look at his sources:

> see Quran 3:159
> So by mercy from Allah, [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. **So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them** and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him].

Yeah, I dont think the Quran is saying her can forgive sins, but rather reinforces my point of how the Prophet (SWT) could only pray to Allah for their forgiveness.

> Quran 7:199
> Take what is given freely, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant.
I dont really get how that verse has to do with anything, so [I read the verses before it to get some context.](https://quran.com/7/190-206?translations=20) If anything it just reaffirms my point more since it speaks of not following those other than God.

> where the Prophet is commanded to FORGIVE his followers

The Prophet (SWT) was a human being with feelings, so just like any other human he had the power of forgiving those who were rude to him. This is purely forgiveness on his behalf, not Gods.

> The Quran also says in 9:103 that the Prophet's blessings and prayers are a means of peace/security for those he blesses
> Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke [ Allah 's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Again, this mentions Allah’s blessings (not of the prophet’s). I know that the Imam is also said to invoke Allah’s blessings through himself, and this is also what khalil mentions in the closing of his argument, but let me make the following very clear. Our prayers, are not that of which we could consider going through a intercessor. First of all, asking someone to pray for you is a very physical thing. You have to physically approach them and ask them to pray for you, you cant just sit alone in your room and ask them in your hear to pray for you since they cannot hear you! Only God sees everything, so if I was asking the Prophet (SWT) to pray for me today, it would be useless since the Prophet (SWT) has long passed away and cannot see over what I do.

Secondly, even if theoretically the Imam could hear all I say and do, he is still not defined as an intercessor.

Lets look at some common phrases:

“I give you my best, best, special loving blessings” - His own blessings???

“Mawalana Hazar Imam tumhara kul mushkil ahsan kare” - The Imam will ease all my difficulties???

Third part - “Seek at the time of difficulties, the help, through your present living Imam SKH” - Again, seeking help “through” someone requires me to physically ask them to pray for me lmao

Sixth part - “ WA BI HAQQI And in the name of
 MAWLANA WA IMAMINAL HAZIRIL MAUJOOD Our Lord and our present living Imam
 SHAH KARIMIL HUSAYNIRHAMNA Shah Karim al-Husayni
 WAGHFIR LANA Have mercy upon us and forgive us our sins
 IN-NAKA ‘ALA KULLI SHAI‘IN QADEER Verily, You are the Omnipotent“

So now the Imam is omnipotent?? I thought he was just an intercessor???!? What?


Ismaiilism is so contradictory that the most devout followers dont even understand the role of the imam. Is he god? Is he an intercessor? Everyone will tell you something different. My advice? Just read the Quran, and all your questions will be answered :)