[00:13] <@sabinati> loftar is jorb done moving yet
[00:14] <loftar> Kind of, at least.
[00:14] <@sabinati> :D
[00:14] <loftar> We had another interesting discussion in re Haven this Sunday.
[00:14] <@sabinati> good, good
[00:14] <@sabinati> how about salem
[00:14] <Tonky> loftar!
[00:14] <@sabinati> is it on track for nov 11 release
[00:14] <Tonky> missed ya
[00:15] <loftar> This may sound weird, but we're actually considering reimplementing siege in mechanics inspired by Tower Defense. :)
[00:15] <loftar> Hey Tonky
[00:15] <@sabinati> oh that could be cool
[00:15] <Tonky> Tower Defense?
[00:15] <ElGato> sup loftar
[00:15] <@sabinati> there are like a billion tower defense games
[00:15] <@sabinati> google 'em
[00:15] <Tonky> ty :) was thinking of the thread klaue posted
[00:15] <@sabinati> most are in flash
[00:15] <loftar> I'm a bit conscious of it seeming to "magic", but having discussed it, it does seem that the advantage in terms of game mechanics would just outweigh that aspect.
[00:16] <Romero> implenet fire, burn down the wooden palisade
[00:16] <@sabinati> so would that entail NPCs in the towers? or what
[00:16] <loftar> The basic thought is that players would be able to build semi-automatic defense towers that would attack people leaving scents in the village (or something like that).
[00:17] <@sabinati> guard dogs
[00:17] <loftar> And expanding the library of offensive weapons a bit as well.
[00:17] <ElGato> Loftar chair bug isn't fixed? :(
[00:17] <loftar> Chair bug is fixed.
[00:17] <Romero> bear calvary
01[00:17] <Gorbane_laptop> caalry*
[00:17] <@sabinati> sounds interesting
1[00:17] <Gorbane_laptop> cavalry*.  fuck
[00:17] <ElGato> then what bug isn't fixed that my villagers are afriad of?
[00:17] <ElGato> afraid*
[00:17] <Romero> bear cavalry
[00:17] <loftar> Guard dogs did surface in the discussion. :)
[00:17] <Tonky> are there no more items that destroying it will enable you to jump over?
[00:18] <loftar> None of which I'm aware.
[00:18] <Tonky> taming wolves into guard dogs?
[00:18] <ElGato> dunno, logged into seeing hundreds and hundreds of signs inside of all of my village's walls and farmer said apparently wall jumping bug isn't completely fixed :/
[00:19] <loftar> Anyway, the main point of this "tower defense" scheme is that it would make invasion non-"boolean".
[00:19] <Tonky> yeah have been hearing that as well, though i have no need to worry for the time being
[00:19] <loftar> As you are surely aware, one of the greatest problems of the current siege mechanics is that your village is either entirely compromised, or completely uncompromised.
[00:19] <@sabinati> yes
[00:19] <@sabinati> unless you wall of sections
[00:20] <@sabinati> which is an epic pain in the ass
[00:20] <loftar> Adding guard towers would change that situation, since it would be possible for just a part of a village to be compromised, but the rest still being protected by remaining towers.
[00:20] <Tonky> patrolling every 8 hrs is a pain too ;_;
[00:20] <ElGato> yeah no kidding
[00:20] <Romero> what would happen if someone just spammed alts to charge the tower while others raided?
[00:20] <loftar> It also adds value to the smaller units of time.
[00:21] <loftar> It would likely entail both defense towers and siege machines becoming "upgradable" in various ways.
01[00:21] <Gorbane_laptop> dump LP into cannon towers.  Ice towers.  fully-automatic towers.
[00:21] <Tonky> sounds nice
[00:21] <loftar> It then becomes a battle of attrition between the defense towers and the siege machines -- the further your siege machines get before they're destroyed by the towers, the more of a target village you are able to invade.
[00:22] <loftar> Assuming towers also consume ammunition, it would also become meaningful for the defenders to actually log in during an ongoing siege, so that they can refuel and otherwise maintain the towers.
01[00:22] <Gorbane_laptop> liftable offensive towers?
[00:22] <loftar> And repair them.
[00:22] <loftar> No, not liftable.
[00:22] <@sabinati> idk about that loftar
[00:23] <loftar> Oh?
[00:23] <ElGato> really adding automatic defensive towers?
[00:23] <@sabinati> what if you are asleep?
[00:23] <loftar> Yes, that is, naturally, still a problem.
[00:23] <@sabinati> i mean i'm all for encouraging meaningful pvp
[00:23] <loftar> It should be balanced so that the defenders don't *need* to log in, but rather derive advantages from it.
01[00:23] <Gorbane_laptop> How would attackers be able to do significant damage if defense towers are so much more advanced? Having been there longer.
[00:24] <loftar> What is to say that the siege machines won't be powerful enough to balance that?
[00:24] <loftar> It would also mean that walls wouldn't have to be near-invincible.
[00:24] <loftar> Interestingly enough, it might also mean that it could be meaningful to add ladders and wall-scaling.
[00:24] <ElGato> sabinati having an automatic tower shoot at raiders is hardly PvP at all
[00:24] <Romero> still think someone would just spam alts till the tower ran out of ammo
[00:24] <@sabinati> uh it kinda is
[00:25] <@sabinati> in the eve online sense
[00:25] <@DatOneGuy> alpha gone again lol
[00:25] <@DatOneGuy> loftar
[00:25] <@DatOneGuy> Fix mineholes
[00:25] <@DatOneGuy> I just earlier took someone's mine, put a cupboard at btotom fo ladder
[00:25] <@DatOneGuy> and sent alts out to scout
[00:25] <@sabinati> but also "loftar: It should be balanced so that the defenders don't *need* to log in, but rather derive advantages from it."
[00:25] <@DatOneGuy> They had no way to stop me other than to build another hole
[00:25] <loftar> Well, it's just a thought. It's not like we've strictly committed to it.
[00:26] <@sabinati> yeah loftar
[00:26] <@sabinati> blocking mineholes is bullshit
[00:26] <loftar> I know. :P
[00:26] <ElGato> DoG, can't destroy the thing blocking them anymore?
[00:26] <@DatOneGuy> Please just make it so that you spawn up top ON the minehole
[00:26] <@DatOneGuy> It says 'you cannot move there' now Gato
[00:26] <ElGato> or pick the thing blocking them up?
[00:26] <ElGato> oh -_-
[00:26] <@DatOneGuy> and bottom of 7x7 shouldn't have items be placable on it... :v
[00:26] <loftar> You can always place items on it.
[00:26] <loftar> Just carry something, log out and drop it from the log out.
[00:27] <Painhertz> <loftar> Adding guard towers would change that situation, since it would be possible for just a part of a village to be compromised, but the rest still being protected by remaining towers.   (All of our homes in our village are in serperate bunkers. someone would have a hell of a time "invading" us.)
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[00:27] <@sabinati> many villages do that Painhertz
[00:27] <@sabinati> pain in the ass though
[00:27] <@sabinati> also doesn't stop damn bagousers
[00:27] <@DatOneGuy> Indeed
[00:27] <@DatOneGuy> Stops everyone else though
[00:28] <loftar> I'm also thinking, in regard to defense towers, that the towers should only attack people whose scents they are capable of "seeing", as per the normal INT*STEALTH vs. PERC*EXPL check.
[00:28] <@sabinati> yeah but nobody does legit raids anymore >:(
[00:28] <@sabinati> of course
[00:28] <loftar> That would mean that high-stealth characters could commit a limited number of criminal actions.
[00:28] <@DatOneGuy> Also loftar, please fix curios in stands ASAP
[00:28] <@DatOneGuy> Can't buy curios!
[00:28] <loftar> Without being attacked, that is.
[00:28] <@DatOneGuy> It's the most important thing to buy ._>
[00:29] <Romero> sounds fun
[00:29] <@DatOneGuy> Tower defense sounds fun :)
[00:29] <Painhertz> That high stealth idea makes it an easier pill to swallow.
[00:29] <Painhertz> otherwise it's just too...robotic.
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[00:29] <@DatOneGuy> Does someone have to be in the tower for it to attack then? Or who's PER*EXP is it based on? Q of tower?
[00:30] <loftar> Like I said, it might also make it reasonable to implement ladders and wall-scaling.
[00:30] <loftar> Nah, the tower's PER*EXP would have to be based on some quality of the tower.
[00:30] <Painhertz> That sound grieftastical.
[00:30] <Romero> cowtapults?
[00:30] <loftar> The towers should probably be upgradable in various ways.
[00:30] <Romero> Trojan Rabbits?
[00:30] <@DatOneGuy> That would definitely be nice
[00:31] <@DatOneGuy> Let us put cows in them and use vagina cannons
[00:31] <Painhertz> Hmmm.... have wall scaling and ladder climbing be based on agility
[00:31] <Painhertz> Ala Wasteland
[00:31] <@DatOneGuy> and dexterity no?
[00:31] <@DatOneGuy> And require a lot of both for a decent chance to not fall and die
[00:31] <Painhertz> Dexterity deals with fingers.
[00:31] <Painhertz> hands
[00:31] <loftar> It would also make locks on doors meaningful, speaking of dexterity.
[00:32] <Romero> you wouldn't die from a fall from a palisade
[00:32] <Painhertz> Agility is more body movement
[00:32] <@DatOneGuy> You plan to add lockpicking/proper locks?
[00:32] <loftar> If using a lockpick has a dex-based chance of failing.
[00:32] <loftar> With towers, it could be reasonable.
[00:32] <Painhertz> And breaking the pick
[00:32] <loftar> And alarming the towers, in particular.
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[00:32] <@DatOneGuy> Would we also have alarms, and ability to fool the alarms?
[00:32] <@sabinati> yeah i like the ideas
[00:33] <@sabinati> good direction to think in imo
[00:33] <Painhertz> Higher qual pick, less chance of break/pciking fail.
[00:33] <loftar> It feels like it's worth examining, at least.
[00:33] <@DatOneGuy> Pick Q * Dex v Locksmith Lock * Dex ; Or something like that anyway?
[00:34] <loftar> Probably something like that.
[00:34] <@DatOneGuy> Would be fun, to raid newbie houses with lockpicks in hand
[00:34] <@sabinati> another thing that is very important
[00:34] <@DatOneGuy> Also would give me a reason for all this DEX on my raiding character
[00:34] <Tonky> we need Dex cheese 8-)
[00:34] <@sabinati> we need beards again
[00:34] <loftar> Of course, it should be possible to break down doors with brute strength, too.
[00:34] <@sabinati> dex cheese? what
[00:34] <@DatOneGuy> (and wolf capes)
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[00:34] <@sabinati> there is so much dex food
[00:34] <@DatOneGuy> Oh that'd be bad ass
[00:34] <loftar> That would definitely alarm the towers, however.
[00:34] <Tonky> ;_;
[00:34] <@DatOneGuy> Ever intend on adding brickbashing in witha higher limit? :)
[00:35] <@sabinati> no need to brickbash if you have ladder
[00:35] <@DatOneGuy> Good point I suppose
[00:35] <loftar> With towers, walls wouldn't even have to be as invincible as they are now.
[00:35] <@sabinati> or made rams without dry time/decay shit
[00:35] <Painhertz> What about thieving\stealing ala UO? I.e., without the player being knocked out?
[00:35] <@sabinati> pickpocketing
[00:35] <@DatOneGuy> would be nice to get dex/agi checks on that bro
[00:36] <ElGato> loftar with that being said what's to stop people from making their walls out of many towers?
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> pickpocketing would be primary skill
[00:36] <loftar> Yeah, that might be reasonable. I've considered it from time to time.
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> Also you should totally have dark cloaks at night, for actual visibility checks
[00:36] <@sabinati> probably the cost of towers
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> sneak up on a motherfucker at night
[00:36] <Painhertz> haha
[00:36] <Painhertz> Assasinate
[00:36] <loftar> The shear cost, ElGato.
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> In your dark shit, and fucking rob his ass
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> loftar, cost is never a problem to sodom
[00:36] <ElGato> cost < defense
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> unless it's gold
[00:36] <ElGato> exactly
[00:36] <@DatOneGuy> If it's gold well, shit man
[00:36] <loftar> In particular, I imagine upgrading towers should have radically diminishing returns.
[00:37] <@DatOneGuy> Oh if upgrading costs a lot then... yeah I see that working
[00:37] <loftar> And then balancing the siege machines so that a slightly more upgraded machine should be able to compete very well against lower-level towers.
[00:37] <Painhertz> yeah. No need for Tesla Towers. Lol. Big ole WIN button.
[00:37] <@DatOneGuy> Will there be something against these towers? Also will a ranger be able to pick it off from a distance?
[00:37] <Painhertz> Hmmm.... Raft with a trebuchet on it
[00:38] <Painhertz> :P
[00:38] <@DatOneGuy> (Assuming it's low level and the ranger is awesome)
[00:38] <loftar> Yeah, like I said, it would including expanding the library of siege machines a bit.
[00:38] <loftar> I wouldn't, for sure, mind adding some arbalests and trebuchets. :)
[00:38] <Painhertz> Trebuchet ammo being the boulders from cellers. Muhahahaha
[00:38] <@DatOneGuy> Very nice :)
[00:38] <loftar> Perhaps even cannons. :)
[00:38] <@DatOneGuy> I want trebuche-...canon?
[00:38] <@DatOneGuy> On a boat perhaps? :^)
[00:38] <ElGato> you're talking about seige vehicles or just better versions of battering ram?
[00:39] <ElGato> imo a wagon decked out with canons and shit would be pretty amazing
[00:39] <Tonky> would you make it possible for small villages to achieve the lowest grade though, loftar?
[00:39] <@DatOneGuy> lol wagon with cannons...
[00:39] <@DatOneGuy> not unless I get silver rims bro
[00:40] <Painhertz> They see me rollin, dey hatin!
[00:40] <Painhertz> A gold grill for my bull.
[00:40] <loftar> Certainly, Tonky. In some way or another, I imagine even a claim pole should act as defense tower in some very simple way.
01[00:40] <Gorbane_laptop> Shoot dreams.
[00:40] <Tonky> thats a relief
[00:40] <ElGato> if you did that though, you'd have to add armor for cows :D
[00:41] <Painhertz> Claim pole causes "Feeling of Unease" which lowers stats by 20%
[00:41] <@DatOneGuy> Heh
[00:41] <ElGato> lol.
[00:41] <@DatOneGuy> We need q10+ dreams too
[00:41] <loftar> It could be extra amazing if the towers and siege machines had to be matched in various ways.
[00:41] <Tonky> wish my cows could cannon low quality calves at thieves
[00:41] <loftar> So that some kind of tower is more effective against arbalests, for example, but trebouchets, on the other hand, are more effective against those towers.
[00:41] <ElGato> you could just plop down a claim during basically any fight though with something like that, Painhertz
[00:41] <@DatOneGuy> Would there be a limit on how many could be near each other?
[00:41] <@DatOneGuy> I enjoy Tower Defense you know.
[00:42] <Painhertz> And build it without getting your head knocked in?
[00:42] <Painhertz> :P
[00:42] <ElGato> who in this game goes into a fight alone?
[00:42] <ElGato> someone stupid maybe :P
[00:42] <loftar> Probably not, DoG. But it's not as if we've come that far in planning out the concrete details. :)
[00:42] <loftar> We've only discussed it abstractly so far.
[00:42] <Painhertz> man, i wish you guys could hire a couple of coders.
[00:42] <@DatOneGuy> Hey I asked jorb but I want to confirm with you too since you're here
[00:42] <@DatOneGuy> 3d vaults are okay right?
[00:42] <Painhertz> if I win the lottery, I'll fonate a couple million.
[00:42] <loftar> Gib us $9999999999 then O:<
[00:43] <@DatOneGuy> Like if the only way in is on another level directly acceptable? :)
[00:43] <Painhertz> Donate even
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[00:43] <loftar> I will not make any statements regarding "rules". :)
[00:43] <weirdo> will chickens die if placed in a drawer?
[00:43] <Painhertz> Yes
[00:43] <weirdo> :(
[00:43] <Painhertz> Rabbits, I don't think.
[00:44] <loftar> But you know how much effort we put into enforcing them. ;)
[00:44] <Xayc> Çàõîæó íà ÀÍÃËÈÉÑÊÈÉ êàíàë äàáû óáåäèòüñÿ - òóò åñòü ðóññêèå?)
[00:44] <weirdo> do i have to feed them?
[00:44] <Painhertz> That hurts my eyes. Ouch.
[00:44] <ElGato> don't have to feed rabbits
[00:44] <@DatOneGuy> Heh
[00:44] <ElGato> they eat their own shit iirc
[00:44] <@DatOneGuy> I just didn't really want to spend 2+ months on the vault to have it pwned in 1 day ;)
[00:44] <@DatOneGuy> I'll make it anyway
[00:45] <Xayc> !help
[00:45] <ElGato> -_-
[00:45] <Xayc> !goonauth
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[00:45] <ElGato> lol
[00:45] <@DatOneGuy> !goonauth
[00:46] <@DatOneGuy> Oh no :v
[00:46] <loftar> !goonauth
[00:46] <Painhertz> I have this sneaking suspicion hat Paradox should have put thier money behind Haven instead of Salem.
[00:46] <loftar> :O
[00:46] <@DatOneGuy> I keep forgetting that won't tell me their authority in game..
[00:46] <loftar> But we wouldn't let them put their money behind Haven.
[00:46] <loftar> Haven is ours.
[00:46] <Painhertz> I hear you.
[00:46] <Romero> lol Painhertz, Haven doesn't have enough bugs to be a Paradox game
[00:47] <ElGato> lol
[00:47] <ElGato> sure?
[00:47] <Romero> have you ever played a first day Paradox game?
[00:47] <Painhertz> I love Paradox games. :(
[00:47] <@DatOneGuy> Hmm
[00:47] <@DatOneGuy> Is Salem gonna be a 'commoners' version of Haven?
[00:47] <@DatOneGuy> By that I mean less hardcore
[00:47] <loftar> I'm not sure, tbh.
[00:47] <ElGato> played magicka first day. but, didn't have any bugs for me.
[00:47] <Romero> same here, but they've screwed me enough times when I pay 40-50 bucks for a game and it had game destroying bugs
[00:47] <Painhertz> It kind of has to be doesn't it? it being consumer?
[00:47] <@DatOneGuy> Not necessarily Pain
[00:47] <loftar> We haven't really decided on how to balance it in that regard.
[00:48] <InsertName> I have been wondering, what have you and jorb been up to lately?
[00:48] <@DatOneGuy> Magicka was really good yeah
[00:48] <InsertName> Magicka is amazing
[00:48] <loftar> It's probably going to be at least slightly less hardcore, but don't quote me on that.
[00:48] <@DatOneGuy> I had Magicka bugs too, with all the bosses/levels, but they fixed fast
[00:48] <ElGato> GAY
[00:48] <ElGato> more hardcore plox
[00:48] <@DatOneGuy> Well if it's slightly less not a real problem
[00:48] <Painhertz> news item on cnn.com " new game Salem by Paradox overrun with Swazstickas mown into grass"   Not exactly good publicity, eh?
[00:48] <@DatOneGuy> It'd honestly be better for Haven that way, the people who dominate Salem will probably be bored and join Haven :V
[00:49] <loftar> Hehe :)
[00:49] <@DatOneGuy> It was his plan all along...
[00:49] <ElGato> Painhertz, it'll happen anyways :)
[00:49] <InsertName> Lol
[00:49] <Painhertz> but people will be banned for it. :P
[00:49] <ElGato> unless they don't let you pave >:(
[00:49] <loftar> I've also been wondering how Paradox will react to such things. :)
[00:49] <Painhertz> unlike Haven
[00:49] <ElGato> not if no one finds out :D
[00:49] <InsertName> I wonder if anyone in paradox plays haven
[00:49] <Painhertz> the almightydollar rules.