Temp Umineko Discussions

> The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person

Okay, this is actually a troublesome one too. I should try to find out what the original Japanese conveys.

> No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

Kanon cannot outlive Jessica. This either means Beatrice was killed too (so she entrusted her fate to George) or that Yasu was inclining towards George at the time (while Beatrice was inactive).

> 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
The six people died instantly!
The six people were not killed by traps
None of the six people committed suicide!
The 15 people mentioned are dead (Dr Nanjo's murder)

These are troublesome too since they *count* both Shannon and Kanon separately. The best explanation I can come up with that maintains people = bodies involves re-interpreting the implications of the grammatic structure. The first one is more annoying, but I think the remaining sentences are fine.

Basically, the numbers (6 and 15) are used as adjectives for the subject of the sentence. They are used to clarify what the subject refers to. A statement like "There are 6 people in this room" makes a claim about the number of people, but a statement like "The 6 people died" only uses 6 to describe the subject of the sentence, based on an earlier explanation of who the 6 people are. In each of these red truths, the 6/15 people are described by listing out names. There is nothing to indicate that these individuals do not overlap.

To give an example, suppose I say the following:
"Let's consider integers of the form x + 2, 5x - 2, and 5x + 2. If x is an odd integer, then these three integers are also odd."
The latter statement is completely true. However, if x = 1, then x + 2 = 5x - 2, so there are actually only two integers involved. But this does NOT invalidate the statement itself, because it's not actually claiming that there are exactly three distinct integers; the number three is only used to indicate that the subject ("these three integers") refers to the set {x + 2, 5x - 2, 5x + 2} which may not necessarily have three distinct integers.

Likewise, "the six people" is nothing more that an indication of the elements in the set {Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa}, which lists six names, so this sentence applies to each of the six different names. But it still allows for the possibility that two of these names refer to the same person.

This kind of interpretation is troublesome with "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!" because if the names are treated as clarifications, the core sentence is just "6 people are dead", which is a claim on the number of people. On the other hand, if the sentence was actually designed in the form of "Consider the set {Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa} containing 6 names, each of which describes a person. These 6 people are dead", then there's no problem. But it's hard to convey a sentence like that in English while sounding natural and not hinting at the trick involved. It's possible that the Japanese statement does imply this while sounding natural, which would make it difficult for an accurate English translation.

> Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. (Kanon)

Depends on the context, but it sounds like "the five people" was described before so this falls on the same boat (not a declaraion of the number). Otherwise, if it's not clarified who the five people are, then it could be any five people.

> In short, he was the 9th victim.

This is well-established. The fact that this is in red actually made it a lot easier to construct the sequence of events in the 4th arc. It's a useful guide that doesn't contradict anything.

> All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide.

These are among the strongest red truths that support Shkanon. Non-Shkanon theories have a hard time explaining Kanon's death here. The Shkanon interpretation is quite clear, however: that this negates any possibility of another entity killing Kanon. Kanon's death is a scenario of a personality being extinguished and NOT a case of a body dying.

FYI the fourth arc provides so few clues (there are plenty of reds, but very little Battler observations) that there is a LOT of flexibility in guessing how the events played out, for Shkanon theorists or otherwise.

> All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!

This actually supports Shkanon, because the phrasing of "one of the servants" implies there could very well be overlaps. A phrasing of the form "one in each servant's pocket" or something would be a lot more troublesome to deal with.

> The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!

Likewise, it's not claiming a one-to-one mapping.

> The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

This is fine. Shanon could dress up as Kanon and people would think it's Kanon. Note the context here: Battler claimed that somebody else took up the name of Kanon in response to "They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!" (which is fine if "person = body" because even if Kanon was dead, his body was still alive and was seen). They saw Shannon/Beatrice in Kanon's body, and thought it was Kanon, though Shannon/Beatrice never claimed to be Kanon.

> (Dismissing the battler culprit theory): Battler-kun is not the culprit.
Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
This can be said of all games.
Also, from manga: In none of the games Battler Ushiromiya is the culprit

Culprit is described as one who kills (defined in red in Arc 8). He still could have been an accomplice or even the mastermind.

> At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!

Alright, this does confirm that an inactive personality is not considered to "exist" at the time, because Kanon is not dead yet. I don't think this contradicts anything else.