Create a new version of paste:

We have to think of high levels of wealth as a pathology.
turdwick
chocolate rain shall forever be famous
paradiso
The United States is probably in the worst condition it has been in since 1861.
paradiso
And there are many billionaires decrying a slightly increased tax rate.
paradiso
The system is/has collapsed.
xartet has set topic: have to have high high hopes
lockie has changed mode: +t
paradiso
We have half of Congress, during an impeachment inquiry, basing their entire cased on GRU propaganda.
turdwick
that guys one song, with the lyrics, champagne cocaine and gasoline............ is annoying AF
paradiso
Of course, history teaches us that the organized power systems generally prefer people like Putin to people like Bernie Sanders.
Sabeena
Do you understand the wealth tax?
paradiso
Of course.
paradiso
I'm brilliant, remember.
Sabeena
Is it an annual tax on the same wealth over and over?
paradiso
*nervous chuckle*
Sabeena
I haven't read the details.
paradiso
*adjusts neck tie*
paradiso
I've actually had that same question.
paradiso
I'm like 93% confident it's annual.
Sabeena
Why would anyone keep their wealth in the US?
paradiso
I don't feel like any of the public discussions of that have clarified that.
pm-
yeah
paradiso
Sabeena: Because the US has an enormous market companies want to access.
pm-
whats with all the billionares
pm-
something fish goin on
turdwick
so let me get this straght, its six people talking at the same time to noone in particular, ineteresting.
pm-
hey guys i got one of them lil japanese water water things that make tinkling noises
antiangio has left IRC ()
Sabeena
This wealth tax isn't on corporations.
pm-
im so grounded now
pm-
plastic tubes
turdwick
sabeena, typhon, xartet, apestate, paradiso, pleb all talkinng to noone in particulare, 2 of the six asking questions
paradiso
Sabeena: I believe I have erred.
Sabeena
People with 50M+ don't keep all their money in the US. They would keep far less of it in the US if it were taxed over and over annually.
pm-
and 3 little platforms
pm-
and rocks
pm-
it was only $20 haha
turdwick
fuckoff you transgender queer
paradiso
Strike my last comment.
pm-
yeah bambu sounds awesome. literally
paradiso
Rescind brilliance.
Sabeena
You need to manage incentives so that you tax it just enough that it's not worth moving.
paradiso
Sabeena: Let me try again.
paradiso
Sabeena: There are a number of wealthy people currently legally accountable to the American system. These people have large amounts of assets the state can determine are taxable.
unassign has joined (~webbbb@165.73.240.148)
pm-
i like the bambu screens in hedgewars
paradiso
The wealth tax will immediately generate substantial revenue even off a one time tax of these revenues at the rate Sanders and Warren have discussed. So, that's good.
pm-
bamboo
turdwick
noone listens, or even answers anyone here. just random talking. kind of humorous
turdwick has left IRC (Quit: Page closed)
paradiso
The state can retroactively enforce laws wealthy people have been using to skirt US tax laws and apply those decisions to these wealthy people, further increasing revenue.
pm-
the square lily pads are suspended by plastic rods
Sabeena
So you're happy with a single year's worth of wealth tax, then everyone moving their money elsewhere. That's the plan?
paradiso
I am the beginning of my exposition.
paradiso
Your comment, however, has inclined me to make a detour.
lockie has changed mode: -t
paradiso
Will you bear with me?
pm-
shit gets pretty major i imagine
unassign
pleb, it's time for you to make them pay
milkness
posty stop talking shit
pm-
im waiting for the cat to start fucking with it
Sabeena
I will.
milkness
you dont even believe any of this crap
paradiso
I think this will be extremely useful.
paradiso
The other day, I was commenting to a friend about Bernie Sanders' proposal to disallow any child in America from going without food.
paradiso
They responded quickly, exasperated, "Sure, but how will he pay for it!"
milkness
nice work gregor
paradiso
I got fed up with my friend.
milkness
now he has to go harder or he'll look like a bitch
pleb has set topic: MOST TRANSSEXUALS ARE VERY PASSIVE
lockie has changed mode: +t
milkness
OKAY CLARICE
pm-
i have a cat that loves to play with the dogs water bowl and doesnt mind baths, and 2 dogs that almost never drink from their bowls
Sabeena
Food is like $1/1000 calories in the US.
paradiso
I am an extremely analytical person. I'm the one in the 99.9% of people to analyze deeply about causality and the effects of our actions, even when those actions are deeply held norms.
paradiso
Most people dislike this.
pm-
praise mcdonalds
paradiso
To be 'reminded' by somebody less analytical than me that I should 'Please, think of the consequences!' was too much.
pm-
ive upgraded my sardines
pm-
i dont do the beachcliff anymore
pm-
its all about the big oval can of prince edwards
paradiso
Here's what I said to them, Sabeena:
pm-
tomato sauce is the only kind they got so far
paradiso
Imagine that you are at the shoreline and there is a dog caught up in the strong current of a river. It looks like the dog might drown to death.
pm-
the beach cliff is just too low qual control
pm-
like amazon
pm-
and adelphia
paradiso
There are 14 humans standing nearby. Several of them fret, but otherwise do nothing. Several others begin to devise a plan. They try to estimate the strength of the current and its direction. Will we use any tools?
paradiso
Then, *splash*. An individual has jumped into the river. They will save the dog. This is the purpose. They have executed.
paradiso
They have not thought of all the ramifications of their actions. They haven't calculated every variable. They are acting for a noble purpose.
paradiso
Do you know what we call actions like this in world literature?
paradiso
Hero.
paradiso
All acts of heroism, in all stories ever, are like this.
Sabeena
Okay.
paradiso
It's the beginning of a quest for a noble purpose without a plan for all contingencies.
Sabeena
"Hero" in literature is a bit wider, but.
paradiso
If you have a plan for all contingencies, it might be 'effective', but it is not 'heroic'.
paradiso
I am not advocating we don't also plan as a society.
paradiso
Of course we should plan and be analytical and consider consequences.
Sabeena
What are you advocating?
paradiso
But, systematically, beyond this one issue of an annual wealth tax and any effects borne from such a policy, so you think we have an excess of heroism and a dearth of analysis?
paradiso
I would say that is clearly not the case.
paradiso
Our society is drowning in moral cowardice.
Sabeena
I don't see heroism anywhere near this. Just competing analyses and ideologies.
paradiso
I think there has been a systematic effort by our societies' elites to destroy the heroic impulse in the masses.
paradiso
Sabeena: It's right here.
paradiso
I can start to re-route to the wealth tax.
lockie has changed mode: -t
pm-
i feel one comin' awn
paradiso
So, what are we going to do about children in this country who don't have food?
paradiso
*stands up*
paradiso
We're going to feed them. That's it.
paradiso
The goal is complete.
pm-
hey you guys better start thawing yur turkeys mang that shit takes a few days
paradiso
How are we going to pay for it? We'll figure it out -- we're a resourceful people and our cause is true.
pm-
i might cook mine on wed again like i did last year
paradiso
Now, the wealth tax proper.
Sabeena
paradiso, I've been meaning to read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State
paradiso
Sabeena: Is it moral or stable for some individuals to have the amount of wealth they currently do?
paradiso
No, it is not moral.
paradiso
It is not stable.
paradiso
They are using their money to literally collapse our republican forms of government.
paradiso
Everything we value in our system is being eroded by this level of wealth concentration.
paradiso
So, what are we going to do?
paradiso
*splash*
paradiso
That's what we're gonna do.
paradiso
We're gonna be a noble collection of 325 million humans who pursue justice.
paradiso
We don't have any solution to every problem we'll enounter.
paradiso
It might get scary. It'll be dark at times. But we won't give up.
paradiso
That's the Hero's myth.
paradiso
Now that we have pack full of those maps we have and that food we scrounged up, we have come to our first obstacle.
paradiso
We can now analytical tackle the issues you raise.
Sabeena
You're advocating: just start.
Sabeena
Yes?
paradiso
I am advocating we act nobly and it will be very beneficial for us in the long term..
Sabeena
Nobody would argue against acting nobly.
paradiso
False.
paradiso
Almost all of our elites advocate against acting nobly.
Sabeena
Shall we turn our attention to the practicality of a wealth tax?
paradiso
Of course. We have set out for our adventure.
paradiso
Locally, the United States should set its tax rates to prevent any person from acquiring so much wealth they an destabilize the republic.
paradiso
Warren's wealth tax is a very modest step in that direction.
paradiso
Ultimately, it's probably not possible to have any billionaires.
Sabeena
Can a wealth tax raise revenue over the long run? Is there a version that doesn't incent the wealthy to move their money to friendlier countries?
paradiso
Sabeena: The US has previously featured very high tax rates in the post-WW2 era.
milkness
lol aw
Sabeena
High income tax?
paradiso
We can dig further into the details, but the top marginal tax rate in the 1960s was above 90%.
Sabeena
Has it ever had a wealth tax? (Sincere question.)
Sabeena
Marginal income tax rate.
paradiso
I have to look further into the details.
paradiso
Yes, the super wealthy generally have a low portion of their wealth coming from income.
jogmaster has joined (uid325715@2001:67c:2f08:1::4:f853)
Sabeena
My sense is that the taxes you're comfortable with are levied on transactions - income tax, capital gains. Not wealth that just sits there and gets taxed over and over annually.
paradiso
I believe the estate tax was also quite high in that time period, but I have to check that.
Sabeena
Again, a transaction.
paradiso
I fundamentally disagree on transaction only taxes.
paradiso
We have at least three top-level goals motivating our wealth tax:
jogmaster has set topic: https://youtu.be/t4ssrr2OsQ0
lockie has changed mode: +t
paradiso
1) revenue generation for a nation which needs substantial revenue to invest in its people to ensure the country remains a good place to live and competitive with other nations
Sabeena
Transaction taxes set correctly could make billionaires sufficiently improbable. But I don't see how you tax existing billionaires enough to right the world. Like it's not practically possible. They'd just move their money.
paradiso
2) decreasing the power of the super wealthy from destroying our republican government *which they're currently doing*
paradiso
3) restorative justice by undoing previous inequalities and unjust laws in the past that led to the taxed individuals current high levels of wealth
paradiso
I am going to address the 'move their money' argument.
Sabeena
Thank you.
paradiso
You fell back on current tax ideology that I think was generated in large part from the wealthy and I wanted to provide a leftist, justice-oriented alternative.
Sabeena
What alternative?
paradiso
We have systemic problems in our culture and law that has created this situation.
paradiso
A major goal of these proposals is to begin to undo some of that.
paradiso
My three stated goals above.
paradiso
Wealth inequality, for example, substantially amplifies racial inequality.
paradiso
A nation needs to care deeply about that, not just revenue generation..
paradiso
Centrist and right-wing discussions of tax policy that dominate our mass media systems almost never discuss that.
Sabeena
I have made no arguments. I don't disagree with those goals. I am thinking about the best way to start.  
paradiso
Because none of the speakers or anybody in their world are desperately poor.
Sabeena
Is there a wealth tax that can raise revenue over the long run?
paradiso
There is framing in your question that came from the culture you inhabit.
Sabeena
You are preaching to the choir.
paradiso
That culture is, in part, influenced by ideology generated by wealthy people which have disproportionate say in our culture.
Sabeena
Reframe is for me.
Sabeena
is/it
paradiso
I just did, in part.
paradiso
40% of Americans have zero wealth.
paradiso
Zero.
paradiso
Literally zero.
milkness
nini smelly ones
paradiso
Those people are disproportionately racial minorities, and their status of zero wealth, to a substantial extent, is the effect of de jure and de facto racist policies in the US.
paradiso
It's a critical goal of the US to begin to reverse those effects of illegal and unjust policies.
paradiso
Deep wealth requires a lot of time to grow and mature, and that is explicitly affected by, say, racism in the 1960s.
lockie has changed mode: -t
paradiso
Restorative justice is never talked seriously about by mass media.
paradiso
As the goal of mass media, it seems, is largely to re-inforce the status quo power structures.
Sabeena
So our transaction taxes aren't optimized to reduce the probability of billionaires.
paradiso
Our current tax policy is largely written by the super wealthy to protect their super wealth.
paradiso
Zero hyperbole.
paradiso
And it has collapse democracy in the US.
Sabeena
Obviously.
paradiso
The US has been an oligarchy since at least the 1980s.
Sabeena
Even the skills we value are biased.
pleb has set topic: I SHALL HAVE MY REVENGE
lockie has changed mode: +t
Sabeena
Look why do you think I need convincing of any of this.
paradiso
Okay, so let's really hit your 'moving wealth to tax shelters issue'.
Sabeena
Are you uninterested in my question?
Sabeena
Thank you.
paradiso
I am interested.
paradiso
You have brought up a particular framing that I'm not clear you're aware of.
paradiso
Here's another thing you could have said:
resident- has joined (~erasmus@cpe-173-95-164-240.nc.res.rr.com)
bellalou has changed mode: +v resident-
Sabeena
They don't even have to be tax shelters. Does anyone else tax wealth just sitting there, over and over?
paradiso
"Given how much we care about maintaining democratic form of government, what's the highest amount of wealth we can really allow any one person to have?"
paradiso
Sabeena: I believe every system, with a few notable exceptions, taxes wealth, yes.
Sabeena
paradiso but that isn't my question. Let's agree on an arbitrary number - would you be happy with $50M?
paradiso
I think some options in the Caribbean may have close to a zero tax rate.
paradiso
Sabeena: We seem to be getting stuck a little bit on this framing issue.
paradiso
Look, plainly put, you had a right-wing framing.
paradiso
There's just no way to get around that.
Sabeena
I am making a distinction between my (basic elementary) understanding of a "wealth" tax vs transaction taxes.
paradiso
You have not mentioned restorative justice one time, but you have had all these 'practical' concerns over people skirting these laws.
Sabeena
Does every system but ours have a wealth tax?
unassign has left ()
paradiso
I can't answer that, but any wealth that is sitting somewhere, I believe, ultimately generates taxes when it is transferred into that location or out of that location, with a few notable exceptions.
unassign has joined (~webbbb@165.73.240.148)
Sabeena
Correct, there are transaction taxes.
Sabeena
MAybe I've misunderstood this wealth tax.
paradiso
Okay, I'm going to push forward with my main response to your 'feeling these wealth tax laws' question and see if that resolves this.
paradiso
So, that framing is pretty problematic.
paradiso
Why?
paradiso
It's currently ongoing, but it presents it as something that might occur if we make a change.
paradiso
The current status quo is that wealthy individuals are already, en masse, skirting US federal tax law.
Sabeena
I haven't mentioned restorative justice because I think we broadly agree on goals and principles. I'm interested in how we best start.
paradiso
There are trillions of dollars (much of it by corporations, yes) that should have been taxed under the current law, let alone a wealth tax, that hasn't been, illegally.
paradiso
Okay.
Sabeena
Correct. I'm asking about the potential pitfalls of a particular change and how we might mitigate them.
lockie has changed mode: -t
Sabeena
What does a wealth tax look like that raises revenue over the long run but doesn't make the wealthy just move their money?
paradiso
So, the correct question is something like 'How would the current illegal movement of wealth outside the US change under these wealth taxes'?
paradiso
Sabeena: If you are a US citizen, I believe you owe income taxes on all revenue you generate in the US regardless of where you live.
Sabeena
But I'm not solving for the current insufficient policing of the wealthy.
paradiso
(Hear me out.)
paradiso
So, if you're living in Chile, and conduct financial transactions in the US market, then you owe us taxes.
paradiso
The natural, immediate solution to your issue is that 'If you're a US Citizen, you must pay taxes according to US law.'
paradiso
And so if you're assessed to have a wealth of 100 billion, even if you move your money to Chile, cool, great, you owe us 6 billion.
paradiso
We cannot stop being from renouncing their citizenship.
paradiso
People who renounce their citizenship should pay what they owe to that point.
paradiso
Then we let them go, because it's a human right to leave a system.
paradiso
Then, we need to ensure our system is working well enough that people do not want to lose access to their US citizenship.
paradiso
There are a range of options we can leverage here.
Sabeena
So you think current taxation rates are sufficient as a start if we just enforce it properly.
Sabeena
These are transaction taxes. You incur the liability when you get the income (through employment, a business, inheritance, and capital gains). The money in the transaction is taxed. I think a "wealth" tax is on money that isn't moving.
paradiso
We might make a policy that 'if you're a super wealthy person and you renounce your US citizenship, you can't visit the country'.
paradiso
Sabeena: I think we need a wealth tax independent of any transaction taxes.
Sabeena
We want wealthy people visiting the country and bringing their money.
paradiso
Because I'm not simply trying to generate revenue, as I've mentioned multiple times.
paradiso
I'm trying to stabilize the republic, remember.
paradiso
And I don't think you can have stable republics with this much wealth inequality.
paradiso
(I've gone over this repeatedly.)
paradiso
I think I need a moment to re-center.
Sabeena
Then I'll drop my question and let's do your thing.
pleb has set topic: chronic lead insult
lockie has changed mode: +t
paradiso
At some point, I have repeated that you have a right-wing framing like five times and that's not the only goal of these policies.
paradiso
And you immediately return to 'current taxation rates are sufficient'.
paradiso
I'll take a three minute break.
Sabeena
OK.
christ- has left IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
paradiso
Okay, I am ready to continue.
paradiso
So, remember our purpose and orientation:
paradiso
We're being noble people seeking justice, acting heroically, as we try to accomplish three goals:
paradiso
1) revenue generation for a nation which needs substantial revenue to invest in its people to ensure the country remains a good place to live and competitive with other nations
paradiso
Transaction taxes set correctly could make billionaires sufficiently improbable. But I don't see how you tax existing billionaires enough to right the world. Like it's not practically possible. They'd just move their money.
paradiso
2) decreasing the power of the super wealthy from destroying our republican government *which they're currently doing*
paradiso
3) restorative justice by undoing previous inequalities and unjust laws in the past that led to the taxed individuals current high levels of wealth
paradiso
So, you're concern is there may be an even greater increase in these wealthy individuals being unaccountable to our laws.
paradiso
Which of course plainly states the problem, as these individuals are not beholden to nation states.
paradiso
So, let them.
paradiso
We're heroic and noble and strong.
paradiso
There are 325 million Americans.
lockie has changed mode: -t
paradiso
There are 500 million humans in the EU.
paradiso
The combined markets of the US and the EU and all other nations that will join us generate a huge portion of the wealth on Earth.
paradiso
It contains some of the most beautiful human locales in our global civilization.
paradiso
Who's in charge?
paradiso
We're in charge.
paradiso
We have a democratic form of government and we have constituted our states to seek these three goals.
paradiso
If you will not be beholden to our governments, then, at minimum, you shall not participate in our society.
paradiso
If you can flee to Switzerland or the Cayman islands with your billionaires buddies, we can't fully stop that without violating deep human rights.
paradiso
So, stay there and you shall not conduct any business or ever visit any of these 35 nations that contain a billion peopel.
paradiso
What am I describing?
paradiso
An international treaty.
paradiso
The POTUS should use their leverage of the most powerful state on Earth to communicate to other nations that it's in the interest of all of us to generate these laws and enforce them.
paradiso
This happens all the time, as you know.
paradiso
Anybody who leaves the system shall pay what they're due, and any backpay we may determine they acquired unjustly.
paradiso
And if you wish to have any contact with our society, you will obey our laws.
paradiso
Then, we'll sanction all countries that facilitate this behavior.
paradiso
This is also routinely done.
pleb has set topic: YOU DID THIS TO YOURSELVES
lockie has changed mode: +t
paradiso
Your question isn't about taxes, Sabeena.
paradiso
Your question is about how to enforce the law.
paradiso
This is how we enforce the law -- it's extremely effective.
paradiso
After Russia invaded Ukraine, we didn't use force to stop them.
paradiso
We equipped people in that region to resist their actions, and we made an international community to sanction specific Russian oligarchs from spending their money in this alliance.
paradiso
And it has been so effective that reversal of those laws became one of the topic geopolitical goals of Putin.
pm-
skoal
paradiso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebILIKHi9wo

You have been kicked out of the channel
lockie has kicked paradiso (Oversharing. This has been shared > 5 times)
You have joined the channel
paradiso has joined (~paradiso@2601:205:8080:43f0:e49d:2cb9:9476:a9a9)
Topic: YOU DID THIS TO YOURSELVES
pleb set the topic at: Nov 22, 2019 at 10:54 PM
Mode: +stnl 123
Created at: Jul 11, 2001 at 1:36 PM
Sabeena
Back.
paradiso
If you had 15 billion dollars, and you couldn't visit Paris or London or NYC or the Grand Canyon, how much would you spend to be able to?
paradiso
A $1000 plane ticket?
paradiso
A $50000 weekend adventure.
paradiso
Some of these locations you grew up -- they're your home.
paradiso
Some island in the Caribbean.
paradiso
All the culture and people you know live there, too.
paradiso
See this framing, Sabeena?
paradiso
It's full of justice and strength.
Sabeena
paradiso, we agree that billionaires are destabilizing. I am trying to understand how best to reduce their probability. I think we are generally more comfortable with transaction vs wealth taxes, and many voices are challenging that today. I'm trying to understand why wealth taxes haven't been as popular. Property taxes are a kind of wealth tax that works because you can't just move your
Sabeena
land to another country. You can your money.
paradiso
It doesn't cower in response to empowered oligarchs strong arming us in our request for a slice of bread.
paradiso
Wealth taxes aren't popular because they're extremely effective.
lockie has changed mode: -t
Sabeena
I don't need to renounce my citizenship to move my money. Countries compete for capital.
paradiso
And wealthy people took control of the state to abolish them to a significant amount.
pleb has set topic: YOU DID THIS TO YOURSELF
lockie has changed mode: +t
paradiso
Sabeena: I don't care where your wealth is to tax it.
Sabeena
I only need to renounce my citizenship if I decide I don't want to pay transaction taxes. It is not illegal to move my money.
paradiso
If we assess you to have 13 billion, you shall pay your wealth tax off that 13 billion, regardless of where it is.
Sabeena
Oh I see.
Kwyjibo has joined (~rareform@ool-45704a36.dyn.optonline.net)
paradiso
It's up to you to figure out how to pay that bill.
Sabeena
That is not enforceable today but you're suggesting it could be.
paradiso
How is not enforceable today?
Sabeena
The reason it isn't enforceable today is that countries compete for capital. Someone wants my money more than you want 2% of it.
paradiso
Also, again, the entire context of this conversation is *changing the law*.
paradiso
Sabeena: An international treaty resolves all that.
Sabeena
I am with you. Now we just think about how to make it enforceable.
Sabeena
Okay.
paradiso
This problem features all the challenges of any problem which is ultimately met with a treaty.
paradiso
Each nation fears losing a competitive advantage -- the treaty resolves that as everybody plays by the same rules.
Sabeena
What incentice does the Caymans have to participate?
paradiso
In my proposal?
Sabeena
That would work were all countries equally blessed.
paradiso
This is a specific case of 'how to enforce an international order'.
paradiso
All the solutions in that world apply here.
paradiso
The international community can form an international legal body to sue states that harbor criminals.
paradiso
If you earned 13 billion in the US, then the US has a right to that money.
paradiso
Regardless of what you do at the age of 55.
Sabeena
I mean everyone'll just buy bitcoins.
paradiso
Sabeena: That seems in invalid response, honestly.
Sabeena
This isn't governable as we know it.
paradiso
You seem to be very much in an orientation of fear.
Sabeena
Hey it's a new idea let me try it on for a bit would you.
paradiso
I literally just told you how it's governable.
Sabeena
I just made a reasonable counter.
paradiso
I disagree.
paradiso
I am inclined to say your bitcoin response was the first truly fallacious response you had.
paradiso
The rest were just issues with framing, which is subtler.
Sabeena
Maybe you've worked this all out, I'm jusyt starting.
paradiso
I don't have it all worked out.
kwy has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
paradiso
But I have these maps here and this Elvish bread.
paradiso
And a hero's motivation.
lockie has changed mode: -t
paradiso
Again, enforcing tax law is a specific example of enforcing the law.
paradiso
No law is enforced 100%.
paradiso
Expect that here.
paradiso
There are people who fly to other countries to have sex with 8-year olds.
paradiso
Some of them have not been held legally accountable for that.
paradiso
There are nations headed by Kim Jong-Un who should be executed on the spot.
paradiso
Your bitcoin response is of the type 'Technological innovation tends to undermine existing legal structures.'
paradiso
This is, of course, true.
paradiso
The history of legal systems shows that occurring with essentially ever innovation ever.
paradiso
Because humans are selfish and greedy.
paradiso
The solution is to have our governments respond as quickly as possible to those innovations, knowing we're not gonna catch everybody
paradiso
I don't know all the solutions to challenges created by cryptocurrencies, but that is not really a problem uniquely present her.
pleb has set topic: SOMEONE HAS GOT TO PAY
lockie has changed mode: +t
Sabeena
You proposed an international treaty which assumes national governance of money. If I had $150B and decided that national governance just isn't doing it for me anymore, what do I do?  For someone who understands current destabilization as a function of the power of extreme wealth, it's puzzling you don't see what further destablization it will incur.
Sabeena
Technology is just leverage.
Sabeena
It serves power.
paradiso
Sabeena: If we go after Nazis they might try and shoot us?
paradiso
Yep. That might happen.
paradiso
What should we do, then? *hunkers over with you*
paradiso
Those Nazis right there, points, they're the ones who did that kill at Birkenau.
paradiso
We can return to our homes and be safe -- for awhile.
paradiso
What do you say?
buff3r has joined (~fuckyea@142.93.94.49)
paradiso
(You go after the fucking Nazis.)
paradiso
Because we're heroic and strong.
paradiso
We're not afraid.
pm-
my tractor is 50 years old
paradiso
What you're saying is this: Our nation states have previously sufficiently failed to allow the creation of individuals that can destablize the governments we've created while also being uncontrollable by those governments.
paradiso
That sounds like a clear crisis.
paradiso
So, here's a question: Given we have this sickness in us, in 2019, is it over?
Sabeena
failed to prevent?
paradiso
Is it over for all time? Is this unsolvable? Do societies 38k years from now have to accept this?
paradiso
Because if the answer is no, then the next question is, why not now?
Sabeena
I think you're having a different conversation than I am.
paradiso
It is likely the problem will never get easier than this.
paradiso
I think you're having the wrong conversation.
paradiso
And I'm trying to help you see what you're doing.
Sabeena
I am trying to understand how best to start preventing billionaires.
paradiso
By having a wealth tax.
Sabeena
That's one option we are exploring.
paradiso
Sabeena: From a computational perspective, say I want to enforce some condition.
paradiso
I have a stream of events, say, and I want to ensure that none of them has some property.
Sabeena
You need to understand your parameters.
paradiso
What's the clearest way to enforce that?
paradiso
You do a check on each item and change those that have that property.
paradiso
Transactions taxes might *also* work, but those are less direct in causality.
paradiso
You'll need to do some mathematics to show me that results in the same desired stated.
lockie has changed mode: -t
Sabeena
I am not arguing for or against transaction or wealth taxes. I am trying to understand the new interest in wealth tax and the probably pitfalls so that we might get to a better understanding.
paradiso
Do you see what I'm saying?
paradiso
Semantically, independent of mechanism, the best way to ensure a condition is to just check the condition.
Sabeena
You're saying this next move isn't wrong because of the nontrivial probability it will result in checkmate in 6 or fewer moves. We're going to change the rules of the board.
paradiso
Sabeena: The interest in the wealth tax is irrelevant, I would say, to a lot of your previous issues.
paradiso
I would say that is something different.
paradiso
If I want to ensure a graph has a certain property, just check the property.
Sabeena
That was my single issue. Do you remember how this conversation started? (We are having different conversations.)
paradiso
It might also be true that you can check other properties.
paradiso
And those, in the end, result in the same thing.
paradiso
That is less obvious.
paradiso
The most obvious method of ensuring we don't have billionaires that disrupt our society is to delete billionaires.
paradiso
And how would that work, for the most straightforwardness:
paradiso
Identify billionaire. Remove money from billionaire until no longer billionaire. Complete.
Sabeena
Said every revolution.
Sabeena
They don't all work.
paradiso
I agree we're having different conversations.
paradiso
I'm not convinced you're really grasping all of my points.
paradiso
Plus, you have Gish galloped.
paradiso
Originally, your primary goal was understanding how to implement a wealth tax noting people might try to flee from it.
paradiso
Then you switched to 'What's the sudden interest in wealth taxes?'
Sabeena
What.
paradiso
To 'Straightforward solutions to problems have unintended consequences.'
paradiso
Do you agree we have resolved your initial issue?
Sabeena
My interest hasn't changed. I mentioned an interest in wealth taxes because it's new to me, I haven't had this much exposure to it before but I just watched the debates and such.
paradiso
"Wealth taxes are specific laws. There is a rich precedent of enforcing international laws on powerful people targeted by the law."
paradiso
Okay.
Sabeena
We've resolved the best way to implement a wealth tax?
paradiso
No.
Sabeena
Did we land on: we'll tax the money wherever it is and not think about blockchain?
paradiso
Why would anyone keep their wealth in the US?
paradiso
This was your third question.
paradiso
The first was on whether I understand it.
paradiso
The second was "annual v. one time".
paradiso
Sabeena: Cryptocurrencies are a fallacy to your third question.
Sabeena
I didn't ask if you understood it. I asked if my understanding was incorrect, because I could not understand how it was feasible.
paradiso
You have stated we're having different conversations.
paradiso
I am going in order of your questions.
paradiso
1: I understand the wealth tax proposals somewhat -- probably in the 99%tile of American voters.
Sabeena
You are breaking down into unnecessary units what was a simple question.
paradiso
2: The wealth tax is annual, I believe with ~95% confidence.
paradiso
3. Wealth taxes are specific laws. There is a rich precedent of enforcing international laws on powerful people targeted by the law.
paradiso
"not think about blockchain" was a fallacy to 3.
Sabeena
1. Do I understand correctly that this wealth tax is going to annually keep going back to the same pot, that it is not a transaction cost?
Sabeena
2. What don't I see - how is that feasible today?
Sabeena
3. How might we make it feasbile, what changes would we need?
paradiso
Sabeena: You stated we are having different conversations. I have abandoned my structure and I'm now following your structure, ensuring we're having the same conversation @ unnecessary units
paradiso
Sabeena: See my answer to (2) for your (1).
paradiso
https://www.businessinsider.com/wealth-tax-definition-explained-elizabeth-warren-2019-7
paradiso
A wealth tax like the one proposed by presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren would make ultra-wealthy Americans pay the federal government a small percentage of their net worth each year.
paradiso
Issue resolved.
paradiso
2. This is a new question. Let's put it in the queue.
paradiso
3. This is dependent on 2.
Sabeena
Yes. I thought my understanding might be incorrect somehow.
paradiso
Sabeena: You asked "Why would anybody keep their wealth in the country?"
Sabeena
This was the strucyture of my entry into this conversation. None of this is new.
paradiso
What is your status on this question?
paradiso
I have asserted it is resolved.
Sabeena
That is the reason I couldn't understand the feasibility. People will move their money. Your answer is that we will tax is wherever it is.
paradiso
If you are a US citizen, you are required to follow the laws of the US.
paradiso
That is a resolved issue.
Sabeena
Putting aside that we can't even police existing tax laws.  I sincerely don't understand how you feel blockchain was a fallacious counter to that.
paradiso
The proposal isn't to tax wealth in the US: It's to tax the wealth of US persons.
Sabeena
It's pre-built in.
Sabeena
It literally begs the question.
flyback has left IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
paradiso
Your question is "Why would anybody keep their wealth in the US?"
Sabeena
I didn't super follow the Panama Papers thing.
flyback has joined (~flyback@2601:540:8200:6fe::cb4)
paradiso
I addressed that with my international treaty structure and generic enforcement of international law.
paradiso
People will keep their money in the US as otherwise they will experience a severe cost which will incentivize compliance
paradiso
Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are methods by which people can facilitate avoidance of these laws. I agree.
paradiso
There are, as I mentioned, lots of mechanisms to avoid compliance with the law.
paradiso
That is true of issue involving international law. International law continues to exist. The goal is to respond to those mechanisms to ensure the highest possible enforcement.
Sabeena
paradiso, I steelmanned that into "we will tax the money wherever it is" in order to move to more interesting discussion than how difficult that is.
paradiso
No, I did that. :)
paradiso
If you are a US Citizen, you are required to follow the laws of the US.
paradiso
If the US has a wealth tax that applies to you, you are required to pay your tax each year.
paradiso
Where your money is located is a you-problem.
paradiso
I'm sure industrious billionaires will figure out how to move their money back to the US to pay their bill.
Sabeena
No one has $1 in bills. They need a coupole million or so.
Sabeena
$1B
paradiso
Sabeena: Imagine I noted that the dissemination of nuclear technology was a threat to our civilizations.
paradiso
And then I said, Man, we should regulate this nuclear technology and information.
paradiso
We might form an international treaty that then enforces those goals.
paradiso
Now, imagine a new technology came into existence that made it more difficult to enforce that treaty.
paradiso
Do you see how that's not a problem in regards to the goals of the treaty?
paradiso
It's a separate issue of 'how do we enforce, given that new technology?'
paradiso
At no point do we wonder if we should even have a nuclear regulatory organization.
paradiso
There are a range of solutions possible to wealth individuals that disrupt our societies too much.
Sabeena
paradiso, I understand you think I lack imagination because I don't feel as strongly as you do.
paradiso
Sabeena: It's not about lacking imagination.
Sabeena
It is true that I don't feel as strongly. I'm just not married to any particular solution and actually holding them up to look closely.
paradiso
Acting as if some nascent technology like cryptocurrency renders all regulations on wealth impossible is inconsistent with international knowledge and structure regarding governance.
Sabeena
The point isn't to paint it impossible.
paradiso
You're framing this issue as if we have never encountered these issues.
Sabeena
The point is to assess the threat and neutralize it.
paradiso
We've encountered them frequently.
Sabeena
You are making assessments I haven't earned.
paradiso
Sabeena: You have presented challenges to enforcement as if enforcement is impossible.
paradiso
This is entirely inconsistent with precedent.
paradiso
It's indefensible.
Sabeena
I presented them that we might considered them.
paradiso
Of course we'll consider them!
Sabeena
-ed
paradiso
But not when thinking about what the goals are.
paradiso
We regulate nuclear technology because it makes us safe and stabilizes human civilization.
paradiso
(And perhaps to maintain dominance, which is an unjust goal.()
Sabeena
We might have if you hadn't thrown down "fallacious!" on the spot and made unproductive noises.
paradiso
Your bringing up bitcoin when you did was a fallacy.
paradiso
It just is.
Sabeena
You might reconsider upon re-read.
Sabeena
We aren't talking about goals because we have them in common.
paradiso
So, do you agree, now, we've resolved your third question?
Sabeena
sigh.
paradiso
Sabeena: You have intermixed enforcement with goals.
segue has joined (~uknow@ip72-199-126-61.sd.sd.cox.net)
Sabeena
I STARTED with practical applicability.
paradiso
I have already discussed enforcement at length.
Sabeena
You brought in goals after asking me to bear with you and I bore it.
paradiso
I explicitly brought in goals, yes.
paradiso
I argued that you implicitly brought in goals.
paradiso
So, why would anybody keep their money in the US? Because a combination of national and international law will incentivize them to do so.
Sabeena
You have answered that we will tax money wherever that is. And when billionaires decide national laws are no longer suiting them, we will handle that in due course.
Sabeena
We have solved the third question.
paradiso
I was more specific than that.
paradiso
Okay, we have several questions in the queue you've mentioned.
paradiso
I am okay with you picking any of them for the next question.
Sabeena
I'm afraid this will have to wait.
23:42 paradiso
One of them was "What's the sudden interest in wealth taxes?"
23:42 paradiso
Okay.
Sabeena
Always a pleasure.
paradiso
I appreciate the patience you exhibited in this conversation.
paradiso
We did better than a large amount of people would have done.