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<aaaaaa> Welcome miester jl777
<aaaaaa> So whats the news is this a trustless system?
<bbbbbb_> is this were the btcd talk is at? :D
<aaaaaa> No this is the pokemon channel?
<aaaaaa> Jokes. Yep
<jl777> yes I hear some claims that surprise me
<bbbbbb_> lol
<bbbbbb_> I get jokes
<aaaaaa> Ok so
<ccccc> Jl777  gggggg's concern is that the BTCD system is not truustless
<aaaaaa> Shal we commence
<sdgsdg> i heard bitcoin is a scam
<jl777> where is the trust point?
<eee> who is jl777 i hear many people like him
<ccccc> he may be a bit distracted right now he said he is reading the thread
<aaaaaa> gggggg how can you throw around such horrible accusations
<bbbbbb_> So here's whats going on. I'm in talk with investors right
now. We were leaning towards buying an asic farm to mine/rent. If we
can get a project together I would have no problem getting an llc
wrote up. So far we have around 200k usd ready to invest.
<fffffffff> no poiint in fearing ascics, coins that do will fail
<bbbbbb_> Just throwing that out there for this new project
<jl777> now I am adding trusted teleporting, this actually really
improves privacy levels, but it is only for usage between people that
trust each other.
<gggggg> as far as i can see, its a diversion of the basic coinjoin
concept, just instead of transporting coins through a node, you
transport them through a pod
<eee> is jl777 a btcd dev
<jl777> I am still working to improve the entry into the teleport
system, I am expecting there will be vendors of aged telepods who wont
care that they are identified as injecting funds into the teleport
economy
<4456456> eee: seems so, and his ip hosts the darkpaper pdf.
<eee> noice
<ccccc> it is def jl777 : -)
<jl777> hello gggggg! long time
<gggggg> jl777: so its a trusted system.. entry and exit are traceable
<jl777> teleport is not coinjoin at all
<gggggg> yeah long time no see btw jl777 :-p
<jl777> you are not needing to trust the creator of a telepod
<jl777> now there are cloning events visible on the blockchain
<jl777> however, it all traces back to the creator
<jl777> so extraction from teleport system is another vulnerability,
that is why we are making anon debit card, just send funds out to
debit card
<jl777> they can trace it to a debit card number, but nobody knows who
has the debit card
<jl777> alternatively you can sell it back to the original creator,
this would create a transaction loop that goes back to the one that
created it
<gggggg> so, the transportation is for moving coins off the
blockchain, and onto debit cards?
<jl777> the people who had it during the loop are not linked
<jl777> Imagine a poker game
<jl777> you make chips (telepods)
<4456456> But they must be linked if they want to spend on-chain, right ?
<gggggg> yes
<jl777> you are winning and losing chips and this is all happening off chain
<jl777> you can spend a telepod without going on chain if you can find
someone who will accept it!
<jl777> I think this is the key, to create efficient offchain
tradings, eg. gambling, market swaps, etc
<gggggg> so there is the trick
<jl777> of course eventually you will want to use it in the "real"
crypto universe or even the "real" world, so there is the anon card
for real world and tradebots for public crypto
<4456456> jl777: imagine I want to use your telepod system to mask my
transaction of BTC.
<gggggg> use the pods for moving things out of chain, to be spendable
on other places, debit cards etc... then when the coins are moved
back, they belong to someone different
<gggggg> correct*?
<4456456> How is using your system different from me buying LTC,
transacting on the LTC blockchain with someone, and that someone
selling for BTC ?
<jl777> it is different
<jl777> let me try to explain
<jl777> ok, currently when you spend it creates public record on the blockchain
<jl777> the moment you spend
<jl777> so this is subject to timing analysis
<jl777> it is found out you sent X amount of BTC at noon
<jl777> look on the blockchain and there is the X BTC at noon, so now
we found out both your acct # and the destination acct#
<jl777> teleport avoids this timing analysis attack
<gggggg> because they will stay off the chain until someone brings
them back, either the owner, or the new owner..
<4456456> So, as a recipient, you can choose when to redeem, or
alternatively respend it as teleport to someone else. Right ?
<jl777> they are actually verified using the blockchain (other than
trusted teleports) but there is no linkage of the cloned telepod to
you
<eee> i can see this working well with tumblers
<jl777> yes! that's right. the timing of the public event (cloning) is
up to the receiver. there is a clonesmear parameter that you set and
it happens randomly in that timeframe
<eee> ex a service that has a lot of btcd and acts as anonymization
<jl777> yes
<eee> it will be proprietery but it will be 100% anon
<jl777> combining existing anon coins, mixers, etc. to fund the
creation of the telepod is perfect!
<eee> unless jl777 you ahve a plan to fix that?
<jl777> even if it is unraveled, then all the clonings are private
<4456456> jl777: how do you prevent double spending ? "handshakes"
were mentioned.
<jl777> I do have plans to improve the telepod creation with automated tradebots
<jl777> well if the sender spends before the receiver clones, the
receiver first off gets a bit upset, but more importantly just doesnt
credit the acct. it is like writing a check to someone, then putting a
stop payment. not nice, but no money lost
<jl777> eee: anybody can create telepods, I think that makes it
non-proprietary and decentralized
<4456456> How so ? If you put a stop after taking whatever you were
buying... Fail, no ?
<eee> noice
<jl777> 4456456: the seller should not deliver until all funds
transferred. that is common sense isnt it?
<gggggg> you need a mathematical proof to create money that depends on
the original
<jl777> or maybe partial delivery as the telepods are cloned
<4456456> Funds transferred, here, meaning redeemed to the coin
blockchain (eg, BTC) ?
<jl777> gggggg: I think BTC blockchain is proof good enough for most people
<gggggg> it still depends on trust
<aaaaaa> Uh oh
<jl777> 4456456: yes cloning transfers the value to 100% destination
control, it is a public event on blockchain, but only links back all
the way to the original creator, which maybe used mixers, etc
<4456456> Then, imagine hte following scenario:
<jl777> gggggg: where is the trust point?
<4456456> Alice wants to buy something from Bob using your system, and BTC.
<4456456> Alice makes a teleport payment to Bob. But Bob in turn
decides not to redeem, but to keep this teleport for future reuse.
<gggggg> when you take the coin of the block chain.. then either the
reciever that your buying something from, or yourself can transfer the
coin back into the chain... so i could in theory spend it before you
do
<4456456> So Bob gives this teleport to Charlie, etc.
<4456456> Alice then has to wait for hte chain to finish before her
payment is confirmed, and she can get whatever she was buying off Bob
?
<jl777> 4456456: this is called trusted teleport, so if bob is going
to trust alice to not double spend, then he needs to credit her when
he decides to trust her
<4456456> This is not allowed :p
<jl777> trusted teleports are only for between people that trust each
other and limited by amount of trust defined for each user
<4456456> It has to not be based on "ok, I trust you won't double spend"
<gggggg> so thats where the trust issue is
<jl777> but trusted teleports are OPTIONAL
<jl777> do you trust your family?
<gggggg> so are you using group signatures for the trustless option?
<jl777> does one group in a corporation trust another group?
<4456456> So in order to use your system trustlessly, you can trade
teleports ? You have to redeem at each step ?
<4456456> I mean you can't, not you can, sorry.
<jl777> 4456456: yes cloning each step for trustless
<jl777> gggggg: higher authority to enforce things for trusted teleports
<4456456> OK. So your claim for improvement in that case is just
resistance to timing attacks, right ?
<jl777> like CFO at company, smacks any guy that double spends intra
company payment,
<4456456> I mean resistance to correlation of payer/payee based on timing ?
<gggggg> but, who is that higher authority then... the network?
<jl777> 4456456: also resistant to packet monitoring via onion routing
and M of N (254) shared secret fragments that are randomly routed or
not routed
<4456456> So, from now on I will only consider the case where you
redeem without re-trading a teleport.
<jl777> gggggg: if the two parties trust each other, they trust each
other, this is not an issue. 90%+ of teleports are expected to be the
trustless version
<gggggg> yes, thats what i figured, but the part im having a hard time
understanding is, who enforces the trustless version
<jl777> yes cloning each time is the mainstream case, but the small
number of trusted teleports makes it impossible to do much statistical
correlations
<4456456> In order for the BTC blockchain to be able to adjust the
balances, there must be at least one transaction from the payer, and
at least one transaction to the payee. Is that the case when using
your system, or do you have a way out ?
<jl777> gggggg: if johnny teleports to his sister and double spends,
the mom punishes. higher authority is needed for trusted teleports.
<gggggg> but who is that autority?
<gggggg> the network, e specific node.. several nodes?
<eee> escrow?
<aaaaaa> I think trusted teleports arent very good. Would be hardly used
<jl777> chaostec: if you teleport to me X and then double spend, then
your honor is the authority
<ccccc> jl777 Chaos is asking about the trustless i think
<jl777> let us forget trusted teleports for now
<gggggg> the trusted part i understand
<jl777> the cloning validates the funds
<jl777> now the receiver has 100% control
<gggggg> its the trustless im having a hard time with
<jl777> then credits the sender with whatever
<jl777> So, let us pretend we are the attacker
<jl777> What we see is a bunch of cloning events on the blockchain.
<jl777> we trace it back to the creator, who is just some automated
mixer service, or maybe you use Coinbase to send to your "transporter"
account, so it comes from Coinbase big wallet
<iiiii> nice
<iiiii> i want some btcd hehe
<4456456> You need to define what a cloning event is. A transaction ?
<ikikik> ^
<jl777> ideally it works with something like DRK to fund the intial
telepod. BTCD is not aiming to replace any coin!!
<jl777> teleport works in conjunction with all other coins and gains
privacy by teleporting other coins
<jl777> 4456456: yes cloning is a normal spend
<gggggg> so, i create a pod lets for the sake of argument say, im
transfering 1 bitcoin
<gggggg> so, now i have the pod, with 1 bitcoin, and i send it to you
<jl777> well not so fast
<4456456> It is a spend from the payer's address (I assume) to what
address on the blockchain ? A new one created for that purpose ? Or..
?
<jl777> 4456456: one time addresses, one time keypairs, never reused
<gggggg> and also i send it back to the bitcoin blockchain what would
make sure i couldnt reintroduce the bitcoin into my wallet, while im
paying you
<4456456> That receiving address/key is created by... the payee ?
<jl777> gggggg: if you double spend, then when I clone I get an error
and dont credit you
<jl777> 4456456: cloning is done by destination
<gggggg> so, the transaction is written into btcds chain?
<4456456> Sorry, I do not understand what you mean by this ?
<jl777> BTC clonings are on BTC blockchain, DRK clonings on DRK blockchain, etc.
<jl777> I think you need to read darkpaper first
<4456456> Right. I assume we are using BTC in that example. Who
creates that one time address ? The payee, the payer, or another party
?
<jl777> cloning is done by the receiver, only they know the address
and they dont even know until they start the cloning
<jl777> so you wonder how does the telepod get from sender to destination?
<4456456> No.
<4456456> At hte moment, it looks very much like BTC.
<4456456> I want to get paid, I generate an address, give it to you, you pay me.
<jl777> by fully encryption and optionally fragmented M of N (254) onion routing
<ikikik> >>[22:34] <jl777> I think you need to read darkpaper first<<
<ikikik> i think all this talk is just fud
<jl777> 4456456: well of course BTC telepods look a lot like BTC
because it is BTC!
<tesla666> jl777: this means the different blockchains will be flooded
with clone transactions?
<ikikik> i only watched btcd for 2 days and i understand it perfectly
<jl777> ???????: if people are transacting in a currency that
currencies blockchain is used
<eee> please dont talk about anything other than btcd right now, there
is no fud dev is just saying the facts
<gggggg> ikikik: im really sorry you feel its fud, but i am REALLY
trying to understand how the trustless part functions
<4456456> So the remaining part is the clonesmear. I assume this is
about the payee paying from that one time address to his/her main
address (or wherever chosen) ?
<Feedthemcake> So far all I'm seeing regarding BTCD is that JL777
knows his shit and it's legitimate.
<jl777> lets take a step back
<eee> im going to put +m if dev cant answer all the questions
<jl777> when teleport idea came to me, at first I thought it was too simple
<jl777> if it worked why nobody else did it before?
<fdgdgdfgdg5> reddit ama
<jl777> after I start implementing, I realized it is quite complex for
all the cases
<jl777> so we imagine we are the attacker
<zzzzz> where can i buy this shitcoin
<jl777> what we have is a public record of all the clonings
<fdgdgdfgdg5> https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-BTCD
<jl777> we say, aha!, lets see who controls those accts
<rrrr> lol zzzzz
<4456456> This public record is the blockchain of the chain you're
using, right ?
<jl777> we then find out each acct was only ever used once and to just
transfer the value to the next one
<jl777> 4456456: yes of course, BTC cloning on BTC blockchain
<fdgdgdfgdg5> zzzzz: https://nxtforum.org/lite-multigateway-releases/mgw-v1-4-4/
<jl777> so, the attacker can trace all the way back to the creator of
the telepod
<jl777> this is where I think teleport can use the help of other anon coins
<jl777> to fund the initial telepod, it is a public thing, but if that
was already anon via mixer or DRK or XMR, it is even better
<jl777> ok back to attacker
<jl777> he traces back all the tx to the creator and ends up in dead
end of mixer, coinbase, some XMR or DRK xfer, etc.
<jl777> lets try something else
<jl777> we now go back to the list of cloning events
<zzzzdddz> eee, /mode #CryptoTA +q *!*@*666666
<jl777> however we have to look at all blockchains! as you can use
InstantDEX to swap telepods from one currency to another
<jl777> still we are determined attacker, now we have all the
different coins cloning events
<4456456> But this is a part that needs trust, right ?
<eee> zzzzdddz, thanks
<jl777> we now somehow find out you did a tx at noon
<uuuu> ./mode -q eee
<jl777> so we just go to the matrix of cloning events we made and go
to noon, except we dont know what clonesmear time you used, so we have
to guess as to how wide a window to look at
<eee> let the dev talk please, if i see a fudder ill quiet him
<jl777> the anon set is all the cloning events for all the coins for
the clonesmear time (that is unknown to the attacker)
<jl777> if the clonesmear time is one hour (I use that for default)
then as overall teleporting increases, the anon set keeps increasing!
<oooooo> 4456456:  theres is a trustless and a trusted teleporting -
i.e. take a 0 conf btc transaction or a 10 conf btc transaction
<jl777> this is for receiver
<jl777> for the sender it is even better!
<jl777> you can age a telepod. This is time from cloning and the older
it is the more private because the anon set is from the time of
cloning to the time the destination clones
<jl777> after a few generations of teleports there is extreme doubt as
to who controls any given teleopod, so tracing back becomes harder and
harder
<jl777> just to make the attacker quit his job for the private sector,
we toss in <10% trusted teleports
<4456456> Do you agree that it is fair to ignore Tor, or debit cards,
etc, since they're outside your teleport system ?
<jl777> we are assuming trusted teleports are small minority and only
among people that trust each other. The purpose of this is to add
uncertainity to WHERE the telepod is. We not only dont know who has
the telepod, with trusted teleports we dont even know where it is
<oooooo> jl777:  could you try to explain what you mean with aging
telepods? why does it make the transaction more private?
<rrrr> how do you intend on converting between the teleported coins?
<jl777> so even a small amount of trusted teleports makes a
mathematical model very hard to make, I cant think of how
<jl777> rrrr: using InstantDEX peer to peer exchanging for trading
telepods, probably need to do it using subatomic trades that are
synchronized overlapped micropayment channels, or at least something
like that
<jl777> guest___: if you just clone a telepod and dont use it for 4
months and then send it, how is the attacker going to correlate that
to you? The anon set is all clonings for 4 months, isnt it?
<rrrr> never heard of intantdex before. looking into it now...
<jl777> rrrr: it is not done yet, will be part of supernetwork
<oooooo> jl777:  ah ok i understand what you mean
<jl777> I am wanting to revenue share with all other coins that join
supernetwork so everybody can get part of trading commissions
<4456456> The clone action is a transaction from your BTC address to a
one time BTC address, right ? Then it is trivially linkable to you.
<gggggg> jl777: so if i understand it correctly, i transfer 1 bitcoin
(or whatever coin) to an exchanging host (dont know what to call them)
they hold the btc with multisig, and holds one of the keys, while to
pod holds the other key, and that key is moved along with the pod?
<jl777> instead of using centralized MtGox, etc., we can all trade
among ourselves directly and cut fees way down
<rrrr> dont say the G word, man
<vvvvvv> g word?
<vvvvvv> hue
<true_capitalist> so are you telling me its just another shitcoin?
<vvvvvv> oh gox
<rrrr> :(
<vvvvvv> mount gox
<jl777> 4456456: it is from a telepod address to a telepod address,
how do you link it to me?
<vvvvvv> lelelel
<jl777> it goes back to the creator of the telepod
<jl777> not me
<4456456> You had not defined telepod addresses before. A clone event
was on the blockchain, I thought you'd said ?
<bbbbbb_> ok I'm sold buying in now
<rrrr> but how do you deal with exchange rate volatility?
<mmmmmmm> jl777: If it is the initial transfer from transporter to
telepod it is traceable
<oooooo> ( the darkpaper has nearly 50 pages )
<jl777> mmmmm: yes the injection into teleport economy is traceable
and all clonings trace back to that address
<pppppppp> My app has over 9000 code lines
<pppppppp> Doesn't make it nice though
<jl777> so I think most people wont be creating telepods due to the risk
<jl777> once you get a telepod though, it will be linked to someone
else, so you have privacy
<jl777> think of it like this
<jl777> if you go to airport, then there is all the id, passport,
cavity search, confiscating the dangerous bottle of water, etc.
<jl777> also same on exiting from the airport, with customs, etc.
<jl777> this cannot be avoided and it is the same for using public blockchain
<jl777> so what if midflight, you can teleport in and out of the airplane?
<jl777> as many times as you want?
<h6h6h6> to diferent planes?
<bbbbbb_> ^ to the moon idiot
<4456456> :D
<oooooo> lol
<gggggg> jl777: so the coin is held as a form of escrow.. but who owns
the right to the coin is untraceable, since you cannot link the coin
to the pod.. am i correct?
<aaaaaa> Will it be first class? Or economy?
<jl777> some hired guy goes through all the security, but during the
flight, all sorts of teleporting can happen
<ghjghjggg> Lol
<jl777> gggggg: you are understanding
<jl777> blockchain is used to confirm payment and prevent double spend
<jl777> at least double spend is detected before crediting acct, so just as good
<jl777> the creator of telepod is linked, but all subsequent tx is private
<jl777> teleport needs other anon coins to seed the telepods!
<gggggg> jl777: i can see the idea now, cool but where do you register
the owner of a pod, in bctds blockchain, or as a simple string of bits
send between clients?
<aaaaaa> Will it be first class? Or economy?
<jl777> some hired guy goes through all the security, but during the
flight, all sorts of teleporting can happen
<gghjghj> Lol
<jl777> gggggg: you are understanding
<jl777> blockchain is used to confirm payment and prevent double spend
<jl777> at least double spend is detected before crediting acct, so just as good
<jl777> the creator of telepod is linked, but all subsequent tx is private
<jl777> teleport needs other anon coins to seed the telepods!
<gggggg> jl777: i can see the idea now, cool but where do you register
the owner of a pod, in bctds blockchain, or as a simple string of bits
send between clients?
<quuuu> is there someone that had a bad day? you can instatly feel you
better! i have a bad year lost my wallet: jjjjjjjjjjjjjjj -_-
<jl777> if the guy going through the airport is anon, then that would be great
<Feedthemcake> JL777...this is pretty good
<mmmmmmm> jl777: yes but who are we getting the pods from? it is only
anonymous while someone leaves the pods in hyperspace, they cannot
easily withdraw to a wallet without being linked
<jl777> gggggg: there is also no permanent blockchain that is
vulnerable to Quantum Computers from the future
<mmmmmmm> it is the same as just getting BTC sent to a wallet you have not used
<jl777> mmmm: I am working to make it easy to withdraw to anon debit card
<rrrr> so, if you use other anon coins
<ccccc> jl777 several times you have mentioned that it will not be
attractive to create telepods.under what circumstances do u see
creation as attractive / safe, and won' there be a bit of a market for
these telepods?
<jl777> then you can get cash from ATM
<rrrr> why not just use an anon coin in the first place?
<gggggg> basically your trading 1 of 2 keys for the escrowed coin
<gggggg> and the current holder can take the coin out of escrow
<jl777> maybe it is easy to crack all the anon tx, maybe not, but with
teleport there is no permanent record, at least it all goes back to
the telepod creator
<oooooo> basicly like a vpn?
<jl777> gggggg: something like that, the strength of teleport is the
anon set grows with network activity. not fixed like others, so as
overall activity grows anon level grows
<jl777> this is why I want to work with all other coins!
<jl777> the enemy is not each other, it is the existing fiat guys
<aaaaaa> So what incentive do I have to be telepod creator?
<gggggg> see, now i get it :-p
<oooooo> aaaaaa:  i guess you will be able to sell them?
<jl777> by combining all our anon tx together into one giant
supernetwork, within months it will be impossible for any govt to ever
unravel things
<jl777> ikikik: I have lab tests working, I am finalizing the accounting
<jl777> there is one way the govt can deanonymize teleports
<ikikik> nice ! looks like daddy gets new xmas toys :D
<jl777> it is with massive simultaneous confiscation of all teleport
nodes, globally
<aaaaaa> How
<gggggg> jl777: hehe sometimes things comes to you and the strangest
moments... good thinking, and im looking forward to seeing it in
action :-p
<gggggg> and=at
<aaaaaa> You cant take my nodes
<aaaaaa> There my nodes
<rrrr> lol
<mmmmmmm> jl777: is there anyway for transporters to be reused? to
mask the originator identity
<aaaaaa> And you have to find me first
<jl777> there is not blockchain, but each computer has a
"privatechain" of all his tx, so if govt can get all the computers and
crack the encrypted files they can recreate the entire blockchain
<ikikik> GL with that
<gggggg> jl777: look at mmmmmmm's comment, might be a good idea
<jl777> gggggg: thanks! I dont want to be enemy of DRK or any coin, we
work together, everybody wins
<aaaaaa> That sounds fun
<gggggg> jl777: i never see anyone as enemy, i see everyone trying to
do something different, and the best ideas will go forward..
<jl777> mmmm: reusing transporters would require trusting, but a group
of people that trust each other could share a  single transporter
address!
<gggggg>   its the only healthy way to get digital coins to go forward
<aaaaaa>   But what if the popo come around to all of our houses and
uninstall our btcd wallets?
<jl777>   I am just one guy who got lucky with idea and I hope to get
many helps to make it better
<gggggg>   so now i also know why your been so busy lol
<jl777>   I will be offering revenue sharing to people so not just
from altruism, but also you can make some money
<jl777>   the creation of telepods is definitely a business
opportunity for some people
<sss>   +jl777 were gonna get everyone here to start buying your coin
<jl777>   I also make tradebots, which os
<jl777>   +-9/*/-
<eee> sss, do not impersonate me please :)
<jl777>   sorry keyboardbattery died
<tttttt>   jl777: have you been able to do any work with the crypti team yet?
<sss>  what im the real eee
<gggggg>   lol jl777 been there
<xxxxx>   Yo Jl777 i got my coins from cryptsy! finally
<gggggg>  jl777: ill be checking in on you from time to time... :-p
<ccccc>   big thx to xxcv, xcvxcv and jl777 for a good convo!
<jl777>   i make turing complete tradebots that can run scripts
written in C, so you can do  crossmarket arbitrage, telepod trading,
well anything as it is turing complete
 >jl777<  tell me if you are done explaining ill publish this convo in
a pastebin on twitter
<eee> check pm jl777
<4456456>   Indeed, thanks for chatting here with us. I will read the dark paper
<jl777>   thank you for being of open minds! I need to get batteries,
this old keyboard is horrible
<gggggg>   just needed to understand his thinking, its always better
to understand the thinking, because then you understand the
implementation
<eee> thank you for joining us jl777 !
<gggggg>   awesome evening guys/gals
<gggggg>   :-p
<jl777>   ok, now i gofinish the accounting stuff
<jl777>   bye