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[Info] Gael: How dense is the population of the Compact? Is there a document that goes into details about demographics?
[Info] Apostate: ~10m, and no document, though it's not racially distinct in any area. No group, even shav tribes, are racially homogenuous
[Info] Gael: Is it dense in any given place, outside of obvious locations like the capital? Or is it sparse thorough Arvum as a whole? Like, when I look at the map there are plenty of empty distances unmarked and unpenned across the wilderness, is it safe to assume there are hamlets of Shavs from here-to-there, or ruins, and things of the sort?
[Info] Amantha: there's 'lore Arx & Arvum Populations'
[Info] Liara: There are two to three times as many Abandoned on Arvum as members of the Compact per one lore file.
[Info] Apostate: Tends to be concentrated more in demesne seats
[Info] Gael: I imagine the roads connecting important holds of the Compact are usually patrolled and cleared out by their pertaining rulers and kept functioning to maintain trade and pathways that connect back to the city, but, say; someone is meaning to make a long trip North, all the way to the Bonespire as an example, it'd be almost inevitable to make contact with Abandoned, right?
[Info] Lou: The problem with the roads is there's a large vast lot of nothing between holdings, making them good places for ambush, so while things might get cleared out, that doesn't mean it lasts long. So, it's very likely you could encounter abandoned at any point a long them, even with semi-regular patrols.
[Info] Aleksei: Protecting travelers on the road is a big part of what the Knights of Solace do
[Info] Lou: And ^^^ that. They'll patrol and accompany travelers.
[Info] Gael: So fair it is to say that if someone is, off-screen, making a trip someplace they can justify their safe arrival out of being escorted by the KoS?
[Info] Gael: And I imagine they'd go as far as the, in this example, the Bonespire or Chevalle
[Info] Aleksei: I don't think anyone's gonna be asked to OOCly justify safe arrival going from one Compact holding to another, tbh
[Info] Lou: Yeah. I think it's fine to assume safe travel unless you want someone to create a plot that's specifically got someone attacking you for reasons.
[Info] Gael: None of these doubts are bore of some recent idea to make a plot or anything, I'm just trying to create a more defined perspective of the surrounding spaces to marked locations and the world as a whole, just to be clear!
[Info] Aleksei: It also worth noting that there will also be a lot of NPC noble holdings that aren't on the map
[Info] Gael: I'm trying to understand the degree of 'wildness' there is to the Compact, it littering it are ruins and abandoned locales, or thorough it are - yes - unmarked locations and, in a way, it is left relatively 'unfilled' simply to ease possible storylines and things in the future
[Info] Aleksei: There's both lots of Abandoned throughout the unmarked bits of the map and also lots of NPC noble house holdings
[Info] Lou: There's also thousands upon thousands of ruins out there too.
[Info] Gael: And in spite them being sworn enemies as they refuse to bend the knee to the King, how do these more satellite noble house holdings deal with them? I read the document there saying that the Abandoned tend to ignore members of the Compact and squabble more among themselves, and so I don't imagine said nobles are in a never-ending war against them, right?
[Info] Aella: technically yes they are
[Info] Aleksei: There is definitely never-ending war and conflict with the Abandoned
[Info] Aleksei: That's a large part of why there's so much prejudice
[Info] Aleksei: A lot of people who grow up in the Compact have lived through some sort of conflict
[Info] Gael: That's nice! About the ruins, I mean. In way, I'm trying to create a perspective to how it'd be playing a character who travels around and ranges plenty, the things they'd know, the references they'd hold onto about the world outside Arx.
[Info] Gael: Right, but is it an active, active, aaaactive warring? Like, every day there is a skirmish of sorts? Or is it more like battle-lines drawn, limits set, you cross into my land or I cross into yours we're liable to bloody the other?
[Info] Gael: Or, it differs from place to place, depending on circumstances? Is it an edict of sorts from the King, that we're actively fighting Abandoned?
[Info] Pasquale thinks all places are subject to small border raids and some more.
[Info] Pasquale: probably in both directions.
[Info] Aleksei: I am fairly certain that violent conflict is a very regular occurrence. Like, there's probably a ton of Abandoned who try to keep out of the way of the Compact, but there's also a ton more Abandoned than there are of us, so you can also have plenty of Abandoned who are interested in harrying borders -- because "borders" are always flexible and very much not fixed -- and travelers
[Info] Aleksei: I wouldn't consider it in terms of constant FORMAL war
[Info] Aleksei: More like there's consistent conflict of various types with more aggressive Abandoned harrying settlements or borders or travelers and also Compact folks getting aggressive about Abandoned being too close to their shit even if they're not messing with anything
[Info] Gael: So it is safe to assume that they'd probably be acting in the same vein as bandits, these 'active' Abandoned; creating tolls on roads you'd assume belonging to X house, raiding caravans and things of worth they can get their information on, and there is probably even prodigals who are still loyal to their tribes and act as sort of cells for them for information, right?
[Info] Liara: It will vary from group to group. Some may function for all intents and purposes like a regular noble house, just outside the Compact. Others may be groups of murderous cannibals.
[Info] Noah: Strange question. So I see on help market that you can sell econ resources to use it to buy things, etc. How does one do that? Or is that not a thing?
[Info] Aleksei: Think of borders in the Compact as being very nebulous and constantly being redefined; a noble house's land is really only what they can protect. And yeah, some of the conflict with Abandoned could be in the form of banditry. And also yes, Prodigals are largely mistrusted by those in the Compact very much because of the fear of spying
[Info] Aleksei: Noah, it was deactivated
[Info] Lou: There are abandoned that are nomadic. There are some that are settled down and just want to be left alone. Then there are those that are activel warring tribes.
[Info] Aleksei: And also yeah, as Liara said, some Abandoned look very, VERY similar to a straight up Compact house: they have a long-standing holding/seat of power. Some are completely nomadic, and then everything in between. There's a VERY wide variety of cultures.
[Info] Noah: Ah. Thank you. Is there a way to sell resources? Or is that trying to find a haggler type?
[Info] Aleksei: You can use haggling to sell them to NPCs, yeah, or else use the broker to sell them to other PCs
[Info] Lou: You can find a haggler or sell to those in the broker in the market who are looking to buy.
[Info] Noah: Thank you
[Info] Gael: So, in a manner of speaking, anyone who hasn't had a defined and long-standing association with the Compact that can be traced back in some shape or form could potentially be a Prodigal, right? And, how does one becoming a Prodigal even start? Like; what validates being a Prodigal in the eyes of others, and what authority solidifies it? Or can just about any Prodigal show up, their stuff up on a bindle, and bend the knee to Alaric?
[Info] Aleksei: No, a Prodigal is someone who was born as an Abandoned and bent the knee, it's not that you had any ancestors at all who were Abandoned
[Info] Gael: Sorry, not a Prodigal, an Abandoned- can an Abandoned just appear from out the wilderness, like someone coming back home after getting lost, and become a Prodigal by decision?
[Info] Liara: Prodigal is a term for Abandoned that chose (or were forced) to rejoin the Compact. It's a social stigma that will wear off after a few generations, probably.
[Info] Aleksei: And yeah becoming a Prodigal is just showing up at a Compact noble house and bending the knee
[Info] Liara: /If/ someone accepts their oath.
[Info] Gael: Is there an official control to all of that? Who keeps an eye out for unbound Abandoned running around under the dissimulation of being a Prodigal?
[Info] Lou: You wouldn't know then from the next person.
[Info] Lou: They're all Arvani.
[Info] Raymesin: Which is why Prodigals get side-eyed a lot. Because you can't /tell/.
[Info] Gael: Exactly, it'd be rather easy to go out and about your business without having to formally present yourself to a Lord and doing some official declaration when you look like everyone else does.
[Info] Gael: Right, so Prodigals could, at all times, be potential Abandoned who don't actually recognize Alaric's authority and aren't thus held by the laws of the Compact, and will stab you in your sleep! (Potentially)
[Info] Aleksei: There ARE Ministers in any noble house who are responsible for basically keeping track of citizenry and oaths and whatnot. Like regular commoners come of age and probably go record their stuff with an official, they don't necessarily stand before the HoH themselves. So while, yeah, obviously it's stickier with Abandoned becoming Prodigals, oaths are important and there ARE going to be officials in charge of recording them
[Info] Gael: So while the borders aren't exactly 'open', they also are dimly defined, and given the absolute lack of differentiating physicalities and sometimes culture between the Compact and Abandoned it's as though half of the Abandoned could go on with the pretension of being part of the Compact when it pleases them, then go back to their land when things get hairy. Live the best of both worlds, especially when far away from the Capital where book-keeping and Ministers would be more centralized
[Info] Liara: Yes and no. Most holdings are gonna be small enough that a stranger will get noticed.
[Info] Medeia: I'd wager the likelihood of being stabbed in your sleep by a Shav pretending to be a Prodigal is no greater than being poisoned by a Lycene who finds you excessively inconvenient.
[Info] Gael: If they're familiar with the surrounding towns, can sort of reference the immediate geography of the town, and go; "Ah yes, I am Phillip of <Insert town name that is nearby>, why, I'd like to sell my deer here!" Oh, that opens up another question, what is the value of the Compact's currency out for the Abandoned? I imagine they are still hagglers at heart
[Info] Lou: My understanding is Abandoned mostly barter.
[Info] Lou: They have no coined currency.
[Info] Gael: So they don't haggle with any form of currency, borrowed or otherwise, they just barter? They see no value in silver, gold, and all the other minted coins we work with?
[Info] Medeia: to melt down, perhaps
[Info] Aleksei: I imagine that's going to vary greatly by tribe
[Info] Gael: Or, as Aleksei said, their dissimilarities are so vast that they really can't be penned as an all-encompassing entity
[Info] Lou: One of the reason they are slim pickings for entities like the Metallic Traitor is that they don't come together to form a big government of their own or anything. They prefer to do their own thing.
[Info] Aleksei: Yes they're explicitly extremely varied, so there may be very generalized IC beliefs, the OOC reality is that all these tribes, clans, and houses are going to be different
[Info] Gael: As a way to segway people's concepts and grant a sort of creative freedom when putting them together, right?
[Info] Medeia: It also depends on how lenient a holding is. There may be some leaders in some villages who politely look the other way when a local tribe comes around harvest time to trade meat for squash.
[Info] Aleksei: Although note that it's actually treasonous to trade with Abandoned
[Info] Gael: But that makes them a traitor, right?
[Info] Medeia: it would be illegal, but they may do it
[Info] Gael: Wouldn't that go into grounds of oathbreaking, or abandoning one's oaths?
[Info] Victus: Yeah but if nobody's gonna tattle -- so on, so on
[Info] Medeia: If a desperate and hungry people have the ability to eat? they can either die with their oaths or live with their dinner. *shrug*
[Info] Gael: That is one risky move for some squash my friend
[Info] Gael: I wonder if there is some sort of leniency for extreme circumstances as those, Medeia
[Info] Medeia: lol no
[Info] Medeia points to Eswynd as an example.
[Info] Victus: The general opinion would be "you should've just killed them and took their Squash" and so so
[Info] Gael: That is brutal
[Info] Medeia: What Victus said
[Info] Medeia: "the only good shav is a dead shav" is a very popular opinion
[Info] Victus: Whatever results in there being less Abandoned around will generally be the go-to option for the majority of NPCs
[Info] Gael: Well, thanks for explaining these things in such a way my 2-bit processor can understand, guys
[Info] Aleksei: FWIW I doubt said people would get either of those prop mods mentioned earlier, like the Oathbreaker prop mod requires doing really active, purposeful damage in breaking a specific oath. And this is more like -- breaking the law. Breaking the law doesn't make someone an immediate oathbreaker. I probably shouldn't have used the term treasonous earlier as the lore file on it specifically calls out how the term is overused, lol
[Info] Gael: So there could be noble holdings who fly Alaric's flag that also potentially possess a sort of mercantile relation with surrounding tribes? Under a sort of understood pact of; "Don't ask, don't tell," even if it is popularly known among the populace that many of those wagons and traders coming in aren't necessarily members of the Compact?
[Info] Isabeau: What can be done with materials?
[Info] Aleksei: That is something that, like -- that is theoretically possible, but probably very unlikely? There is definitely trade that goes on with Abandoned but we're talking more like smugglers/criminals doing it, not -- holdings having mercantile relationships
[Info] Victus: Yeah, there's a lot of militarism in the Compact. We have a Goddess of War and the Church has its own soldiers. There will more likely be fights before there's diplomacy that isn't "How about you guys just become our people and pay us taxes"