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Nov 07 18:29:10 * Sabina (~webchat@609DDD6.2D66E8F8.61769217.IP) has joined #mworldstaff
Nov 07 18:29:22 * Tasket (~webchat@609DDD6.2D66E8F8.61769217.IP) has joined #mworldstaff
Nov 07 18:29:44 <Kadalyn> thanks for coming guys
Nov 07 18:29:48 <Sabina> Thank youzzz
Nov 07 18:30:52 <Kadalyn> so firstly, is the issue about using XML, PTS content, or both?
Nov 07 18:31:34 <Tasket> It's a bit of both.
Nov 07 18:32:53 <Tasket> After reviewing some of the entries, it seems like a good portion of items have information directly copied from the xml files. This is problematic.
Nov 07 18:34:45 <Tasket> For a basic rationale, it provides information that the public just shouldn't have. For instance, things with item ID tags; that's not something that should be displayed.
Nov 07 18:35:09 <Tasket> On another level, considering that unpacking is in and of itself against the rules... it also means that the entries posting that data are in a precarious situation.
Nov 07 18:36:06 <Tasket> So in that sense, copying the XMLs are still an issue.
Nov 07 18:37:54 <Kadalyn> "Download, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit, modify, distribute or publicly display any of the content or information contained in the Service except as expressly authorized by this Agreement;" ?
Nov 07 18:40:44 <Tasket> Yes, that. Also, in the paragraphs below, "•Reverse engineer, packet sniff, decompile or disassemble all or any portion of the Service, Cash Items or Software; "
Nov 07 18:40:59 <Kadalyn> "disassemble" I guess
Nov 07 18:41:10 <Tasket> Correct.
Nov 07 18:41:30 <Tasket> It's a combination, in the end. It's both A) disassembly and B) posting
Nov 07 18:43:02 <Kadalyn> would a proper compromise then be a preprocessing of the data to include only what we need to provide our service, and in a more..wikiish format rather than xml?
Nov 07 18:43:03 <Angevon> The XML information can be removed, but it will take time
Nov 07 18:43:06 <Khenta_> Somewhere down the line, someone started modifying the DeadEiry templates we made to store data into a storage space of the xml data
Nov 07 18:43:35 <Tasket> Also, I'd appreciate it if instructions on file comparisons are kept private.
Nov 07 18:43:49 <Kadalyn> file comparisons?
Nov 07 18:43:53 <Tasket> Granted, it's not hard to do or find.
Nov 07 18:44:10 <Khenta_> its on a userpage
Nov 07 18:44:16 <Kadalyn> oh
Nov 07 18:44:17 <Tasket> Correct.
Nov 07 18:44:22 <Tasket> Basically
Nov 07 18:44:23 <Kadalyn> well I'd need a link, I haven't seen it
Nov 07 18:44:26 <Angevon> err that's my fault
Nov 07 18:44:38 <Tasket> You can add information of current content to the wiki, but it can't come in the form of XMLs.
Nov 07 18:44:45 <Kadalyn> alright
Nov 07 18:45:02 <Angevon> I've removed it
Nov 07 18:45:24 <Kadalyn> would you be okay with us providing a script that parsed the XML into the wiki format to facilitate the ease of updating item info that the current system was intended for?
Nov 07 18:45:26 <Khenta_> Now this is a bit of grey area here...
Nov 07 18:45:36 <Tasket> It's ok to add information on currently existing functions. That stuff is public. The concern is that, as things stand, it seems that pretty much copying and pasting the XML information will work to register in the wiki itself.
Nov 07 18:45:59 <saiyr> Why is future content off limits if it's mostly in Korea first?
Nov 07 18:46:01 <Khenta_> What about information that come from overseas?
Nov 07 18:46:44 <Khenta_> I haven't been on the PTS before, so I dunno what content it has.
Nov 07 18:46:57 <Tasket> As for the script... considering you should not be in the XML format, that's not really something I can "agree" with.
Nov 07 18:47:25 <Kadalyn> well, it wouldn't provide xml formated data or anything
Nov 07 18:47:42 <Tasket> Hm...
Nov 07 18:49:04 <Khenta_> I think that they don't like the ideal of the client files being used or modified in any form is what I am understanding.
Nov 07 18:49:21 <Tasket> At the core, yes, it comes down to data.
Nov 07 18:49:36 <Kadalyn> the reason the current template was made was because items weren't being updated quickly enough when they changed. So someone made that template that paarses the xml directly. But rather than that, we could have the template only use a key/value system, and have a script that allows people to put in the xml and it would generate that key/value list from it, still allowing for the quick update, but not presenting the xml to anyone but th
Nov 07 18:49:36 <Kadalyn> e person who ripped it
Nov 07 18:49:55 <Tasket> That's still directly ripping from the XML file.
Nov 07 18:50:05 <Kadalyn> it's understandable, but there's a balance we need to strike here
Nov 07 18:50:37 <Kadalyn> it's always ripping directly from an xml file
Nov 07 18:50:47 <Kadalyn> how obscured that process is is what's of concern
Nov 07 18:52:16 <Khenta_> The problem is that it shows the structure of the xml.
Nov 07 18:52:30 <Khenta_> and the attributes
Nov 07 18:52:33 <Kadalyn> my listed solution would not
Nov 07 18:53:06 <Tasket> Well, my proposal for the time being is this: the request is to not copy the XML data to the wiki. How your wiki decides to convert the masses of information to remove the content it shouldn't have available is more or less up to you; it's not something we're doing for you after all. In the future, XML data should not be pasted or ripped into the wiki.
Nov 07 18:53:43 <Kadalyn> very well
Nov 07 18:54:06 <Kadalyn> like Angevon said this will take a while to change but we will begin the process ASAP
Nov 07 18:54:29 <Khenta_> Thank you for clarifying and sorry for any trouble this may have caused.
Nov 07 18:54:34 <Tasket> If there's problems in the future, we'll cross that bridge when we reach it. For now, my main concern is that extra information. The need for time is totally understood. All I'm concerned about that it happens over time.
Nov 07 18:55:08 <Kadalyn> alright
Nov 07 18:55:14 <Kadalyn> now about the PTS content
Nov 07 18:55:14 <Tasket> Awesome.
Nov 07 18:55:23 <Tasket> Yeah, that's a no-touchy.
Nov 07 18:55:46 <Angevon> We don't know what information comes from the PTS that you want us to remove.
Nov 07 18:55:55 <Kadalyn> well, that for sure
Nov 07 18:56:23 <Kadalyn> anyway, we don't condone posting PTS content as you all have explicitly forbade it to members of the PTS as well as publically on your own forum.
Nov 07 18:56:32 <Tasket> Oh. Well, at this point, anything from the last test client is released.
Nov 07 18:56:49 <Kadalyn> however our concern is where the line is drawn between what is considered to have come from PTS and what is considered to come from foreign servers
Nov 07 18:56:56 <Tasket> Ok
Nov 07 18:57:17 <Khenta_> I'm also interested in the PTS concerns.
Nov 07 18:57:47 <Tasket> So let's say you wander over to KR mabi's site. They have all this cool info up, you post it. That's overseas. Go nuts.
Nov 07 18:58:22 <Tasket> Then let's say the PTS shows up in the FTP, and someone who shouldn't decides to start unpacking. That sort of information is not actually released to the public.
Nov 07 18:59:34 <Kadalyn> that's a lot more difficult to distinguish from a second-hand perspective than you make it seem
Nov 07 18:59:42 <Tasket> Granted, a lot of the content will have already been released overseas, but it may or may not be intended for our server. Until we have officially announced something, it's simply not an official feature and up for debate/inclusion/removal/change.
Nov 07 19:00:04 <Tasket> So if, say, you posted a wiki page to... idk, animist.
Nov 07 19:00:14 <Tasket> You could post what KR/JP/etc have publicly available
Nov 07 19:00:39 <Tasket> You can't go through xmls, because that provides all sorts of unfinished information.
Nov 07 19:01:06 <Kadalyn> right
Nov 07 19:01:36 <Kadalyn> like bard of fury and such
Nov 07 19:01:36 <Tasket> From a second-hand perspective, yeah, it's blurrier. But from the end we're at, it's fairly simple to tell where the information comes from. Either it's from PTS or it's not, especially right now with the XML tags in the backend.
Nov 07 19:01:52 <Tasket> xD Yep.
Nov 07 19:01:59 <Kadalyn> the xml tags can be retrieved from foreign as well
Nov 07 19:02:24 <Khenta_> Right...
Nov 07 19:02:30 <Kadalyn> the only distinguishing factor I can see is translation, and we do have a policy to leave the text in Korean until it's officially released here
Nov 07 19:02:34 <Sabina> Thanks for letting us chat with you. I do need to go now though :)
Nov 07 19:02:36 <Sabina> Byeeeeeeee
Nov 07 19:02:40 <Kadalyn> bye Sabina 
Nov 07 19:02:42 * Sabina has quit (Quit:  Page closed)
Nov 07 19:02:53 <Tasket> Right, and again, the xml from our version would still be something we want not-copied-directly.
Nov 07 19:03:02 <Kadalyn> right
Nov 07 19:03:29 <Kadalyn> it will be extremely difficult to police, but we have added it specifically to our policy
Nov 07 19:03:44 <Kadalyn> policies, as it were
Nov 07 19:04:39 <Tasket> Understood.
Nov 07 19:04:39 <Khenta_> Yeah. I will try to amend policy about overseas content as well.
Nov 07 19:04:39 <Tasket> At this point, the focus is on improvement of current issues. Once that's come to fruition, hopefully I'll have more solid answers for you.
Nov 07 19:04:39 <Tasket> I have to go too, but is there anything you desperately need to ask first?
Nov 07 19:05:06 <Khenta_> Not at the moment.
Nov 07 19:05:11 <Tasket> Alright.
Nov 07 19:05:13 <Khenta_> Anyone else?
Nov 07 19:05:19 <Kadalyn> what's to amend about oversees Khenta_ ?
Nov 07 19:08:19 <Kadalyn> well thanks for coming by Tasket; have a good evening
Nov 07 19:08:22 <Tasket> On that note, I will take my leave. Thanks for your time, and have a good evening.
Nov 07 19:08:26 * Tasket has quit (Quit:  )