BHL peak bad design

[22:51] <Taisa> >PBaha HL uses Hyper Dimension
[22:52] <Taisa> lmao
[22:52] <Taisa> what do you do against that
[22:52] <%Triplicity> heal
[22:52] <%Titzilla> para
[22:52] <Wendigo> die
[22:52] <Taisa> Heal what it killed two characters
[22:52] <%Triplicity> be at full health
[22:52] <%Titzilla> para so it never happens
[22:52] <%Triplicity> it's 4 hits of uhhhh 55% max
[22:52] <Taisa> pretty sure they were
[22:52] <%Triplicity> but also para
[22:52] <Taisa> they both took 2 hits
[22:52] <%Titzilla> unlucky
[22:53] <Taisa> good design
[22:53] <%Titzilla> ? nothing wrong with it
[22:53] <%Triplicity> lmao enjoy sirius
[22:53] <%Titzilla> don't eat OD ougis
[22:53] <Taisa> It's plain though
[22:53] <%Titzilla> There's also sub to sacrifice someone
[22:53] <Taisa> idk forced character death unless you just afk until skip/break sounds dumb
[22:54] <%Titzilla> It's not a forced character death unless you want to avoid RNG
[22:54] <Taisa> Is there a good reason for it to not just hit every character once
[22:54] <%Titzilla> because then you can't sub it
[22:55] <%Titzilla> It's really not that big of a deal, because pbhl is an 18 person raid
[22:55] <%Titzilla> There's plenty of other raids where the answer is to not attack into ougis
[22:55] <Lion> pbhl can stall a lot though because no one likes fighting it
[22:55] <Taisa> I mean it's a raid that still consistently fails to this day
[22:56] <Taisa> (Okay that's because of leeches)
[22:56] <Lion> like me
[22:56] <Wendigo> weren't they gonna rebalance it soon
[22:56] * Lion wanpans and goes to do something else
[22:56] <Wendigo> or was that another buhu
[22:56] <%Titzilla> Dunno, possibly
[22:56] <%Titzilla> That'd make it nicer to host at least
[22:57] <Taisa> I dunno, I can't think of another boss with a "fuck you lose 1-2 characters with no mitigation options" ougi that isn't telegraphed in any way other than checking the wiki
[22:57] <%Titzilla> ubaha hl
[22:57] <Taisa> That's telegraphed unless you're not talking about the burst phase
[22:58] <%Titzilla> What in the world do you mean by not telegraphed
[22:59] <%Titzilla> there's also luci hl which will do something similar with axion
[22:59] <%Titzilla> Pbhl and upwards are all considered end games raids of their times, so they have designs accordingly
[23:00] <Taisa> Axion doesn't need you to lose a character, you can cut it because the plain only happens if you fuck up
[23:01] <Taisa> ...also Axion is a trigger and not a regular ougi
[23:01] <Taisa> Anyway idk
[23:01] <Taisa> It's this specific style of boss move design that I fundamentally dislike
[23:01] <Taisa> Flip coin lose character; Avatar does this on rare occasion too but the numbers are less fucky
[23:02] <%Titzilla> I still don't get the complaint
[23:02] <%Titzilla> Is the issue that you didn't know about it?
[23:02] <%Titzilla> bhl's is the easiest to deal with out of all of them
[23:02] <%Titzilla> because delays, grav, para, break extend, fear
[23:03] <%Titzilla> Do you mean it's untelegraphed because it's on an ougi?
[23:04] <Taisa> It's just a regular ougi and not a trigger or a modifier; by modifier I mean stuff like Metatron's Auroracoil or Akasha's Karma
[23:04] <Taisa> Just boom plain nukes randomly
[23:04] <%Titzilla> doesn't that make it the easiest to deal with
[23:04] <%Triplicity> attack into OD skyfall, nothing I could do
[23:05] <Taisa> You can cut skyfall
[23:05] <Lion> plain damage sucks
[23:05] <%Triplicity> and you can sub hyperdimension what about it
[23:05] <Taisa> Plain nuke that guarantees character loss without perfect RNG just feels creatively bankrupt
[23:05] <Taisa> Trip: That loses a character though
[23:06] <nftyw2> just summon titan
[23:06] <Taisa> did titan have the good guts or the bad guts
[23:06] <Taisa> I forget
[23:06] <nftyw2> why would it have good guts
[23:06] <%Triplicity> if you're at that point and you didn't bring any of the literal half a dozen ways zilla said you can deal with it then at that point it's on you
[23:06] <%Triplicity> just wait for break
[23:07] <nftyw2> what are we talking about
[23:07] <nftyw2> ubaha hl
[23:07] <%Titzilla> Sorry Trip, no it's bad design for an end game raid to have threats
[23:07] <Taisa> hurr
[23:07] <%Titzilla> baha hl nftyw2
[23:07] <%Triplicity> if PBHL was a solo fight then I'd follow you here
[23:07] <%Triplicity> but it's 18
[23:07] <Taisa> Maybe the next endgame raid should just do 100% of a character's life in plain on every ougi with 1 diamond
[23:07] <Taisa> Now that's threat
[23:08] <%Triplicity> yeah it would be good thing that's not what hyperdimension is
[23:08] <nftyw2> new SSR character Loki (Grand) puts up a buff that nullifies plain damage
[23:08] <Taisa> Anyway it's not even like we lost this so I dunno why every time I criticize something in any video game someone pops out of the trash pile with "HURR TOO HARD FOR YOU??? THE DESIGN IS PERFECT AND FUN AND ENGAGING HOW DARE YOU CALL IT A RELIC OF OLD DESIGN"
[23:09] <%Triplicity> have you considered it might be because those opinions are bad
[23:11] <Taisa> I have but I've found it to not be the case
[23:12] <Taisa> What are the numbers on white Sirius again
[23:12] <Taisa> 4 times 30 ok
[23:13] <Taisa> That's a lot better actually
[23:13] <Nobuhime> I don't know if it's good or bad game design, but i'll deal with it when it comes up idk
[23:14] <%Titzilla> My question still is how this is worse than triggers just because it's on an ougi
[23:14] <Nobuhime> After GW I just want to work on whittling down 27 arcarum tickets and maybe SSRing Sun
[23:14] <%Titzilla> If you didn't know about it and are mad you had to look at a wiki, all triggers in other raids are the same thing
[23:15] <Nobuhime> I mean, isn't that how one goes about fighting new raid bosses in MMOs? Like, either researching the strat beforehand and practicing with guild, or being the first people doing it and grinding against/analyzing the raid until they crack it
[23:15] <Taisa> I guess
[23:15] <nftyw2> yeah but that is hard to do when you are pick up and playing on phone in an office or on a short break
[23:16] <Nobuhime> I mean most fights are not like that
[23:16] <Taisa> Anyway trigger or not, just "lots of RNG plain damage" is still pretty creatively bankrupt
[23:16] <Nobuhime> especially once you've figured them out or your grid is strong enough
[23:16] <Nobuhime> What was that one VA who full auto'd UBHL and went to sleep
[23:17] <Taisa> At least if it's a trigger and has numbers that don't borderline guarantee character loss it ends up as something you deal with once and can recover from, rather than something that depends on the dps of the overall raid
[23:18] <Taisa> Doesn't apply in my case because I just rolled right into it but like I said, it's not about my specific raid here, it's just a design rant because I was legitimately surprised that such a thing even exists
[23:18] <Nobuhime> taisa, line
[23:19] <%Titzilla> It again does not depend on dps
[23:19] <%Titzilla> It can be mitigated by a dozen different ways
[23:19] <Taisa> How do you """mitigate""" plain damage
[23:19] <%Titzilla> by
[23:19] <%Titzilla> not
[23:19] <%Titzilla> attacking
[23:19] <%Titzilla> into
[23:19] <%Titzilla> ougi
[23:20] <Taisa> Okay so you just used the word mitigate there to cause unnecessary confusion, gotcha
[23:20] <%Titzilla> this involves delays, grav, para, fear, hell even charm.
[23:20] <%Titzilla> The problem is mitigated
[23:21] <%Triplicity> hoo boy remember when light superstar was a role that was mandatory in PBHL just to charm it
[23:21] <%Pygmalion> ahh, the days of superstar
[23:21] <%Titzilla> Yes
[23:21] <%Triplicity> and when catherine was highly valued because she could double charm it
[23:21] <%Titzilla> I still run it when hosting Trip
[23:21] <Taisa> Who in light even has fear (or who in other elements has any chance of actually landing it off element)
[23:22] <%Titzilla> Wow guess what, Pbhl has multiple phases so it's almost like other elements are used
[23:22] <%Triplicity> and when people brought Percival to the raid just to fear it
[23:23] <Taisa> Yeah I sure remember that water phase killing half my team with plain damage
[23:24] <Taisa> Anyway whatevs the raid is old and feels it