procupine - Today at 4:49 PM
sure, I'm headed to the gym so I'll be back in a few hours
Fros7bite - Today at 4:57 PM
roger!
Fros7bite - Today at 9:28 PM
Zazz is talking all about how you're his guy and you're ready to leave. I don't do drama, I need to know if you're in or out. You're a great part of the team and we need you and your skills, I need to know I can rely on you
I think you can agree the training system makes sense and works. No frills, and is completely ready to be built upon.
procupine - Today at 10:09 PM
I'm my own guy, actually. If you scroll back up in this conversation you'll see in no uncertain terms what I want to see in the group. I know others have been raising similar points. The fact of the matter is that I can't see myself sticking around unless you're willing to include the community in the decisionmaking process in a meaningful way.
I don't want to bail on the group, but I fell like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes
as for the training program, we had all that before
Fros7bite - Today at 10:10 PM
We really didn't :/
We talked about it
Zazz said he'd make it happen
After a month nothing was done
Then overnight we pushed this out
And it works
The new guys love it, and are actually learning
The community provided 100% of the direction that we go. And I mean the whole.community, not just a group of elders
Some things can't change or we lose our identity, but all the major changes we made were community driven
procupine - Today at 10:13 PM
explain
quite frankly, I don't see any changes being community driven, I see them being frostbite driven
Fros7bite - Today at 10:14 PM
I get dozens of messages a day, it ELP me and the guys who made the group make informed decisions of direction. We take what makes the most sense and goes with our motto and try it out
If it works it sticks
It may look that way because I put the rubber stamp.on ot
In reality you think I come up with all these great ideas on my own?
Fuck no
It's you guys
I just make the final decision when there's a divide
And sadly what Zazz wanted to add was stupid and against our very core values
It's just sad he's got you and the others stopped playing recently over this
procupine - Today at 10:17 PM
let's make one thing clear, I don't do anything on account of zazz
Fros7bite - Today at 10:17 PM
He makes it sound like you do, and you did pull support and stop playing at the same time the rest of the training group did
procupine - Today at 10:18 PM
ok I'm not gonna play he said she said with you
Fros7bite - Today at 10:18 PM
It's just seems like all the change you wanted has been implemented
And it happened in one day instead of slowly over a month because I tried it Zazzs way
He just blames me for micromanaging when it couldn't be further from the truth
procupine - Today at 10:19 PM
declaring how things are gonna be from the top with no transparency is not the change I wanted
we had an administration channel with open discourse
Fros7bite - Today at 10:20 PM
That was one decision
procupine - Today at 10:20 PM
and you deleted messages in it that you didn't agree with
Fros7bite - Today at 10:20 PM
General channel is open discourse
procupine - Today at 10:20 PM
and that discourse gets lost in a sea of shitposting
Fros7bite - Today at 10:20 PM
Not a private channel to discuss in private changes to the group
Everyone should decide
Talk bout it
I see what works and implement it
procupine - Today at 10:21 PM
but it wasn't private, it encompassed almost every member of the group who had been active for over a month
Fros7bite - Today at 10:21 PM
It's how we always did it
That just false, Zazz is brand new relatively
procupine - Today at 10:21 PM
that's part of the group identity
it wasn't perfect but it was something
Fros7bite - Today at 10:22 PM
Discussion happens in general
procupine - Today at 10:22 PM
that was all your SME's in one place
Fros7bite - Today at 10:22 PM
Everyone gets a say
I hate making an upper class
procupine - Today at 10:22 PM
even the deltagru ranger wannabe who joined 5 minutes ago?
Fros7bite - Today at 10:22 PM
Ruins the whole environment and makes problems like these
He gets a say yes
Elder members are obviously better informed but new members can contribute a LOT
and getting them heard is important
procupine - Today at 10:23 PM
that's fair
Fros7bite - Today at 10:23 PM
You say you want more Community involvement but it sounds like you just wanted an elder Council
I completely understand where you're coming from but
procupine - Today at 10:24 PM
would there not be a way to use admin channel to streamline discussion, then put the ideas up to a general vote?(edited)
Fros7bite - Today at 10:24 PM
To keep things moving in a reasonable fashion it's required sometimes that divides be decided that's where I come in
I know some people really like me because of it and some people of course will not always like the decisions but all of them are always made for long-term benefit
A general vote tends to only Encompass people's views from a limited perspective while administrators get to hear dozens of people's views and allow them to judge by Merit instead of mass majority
procupine - Today at 10:27 PM
so you want a system where everyone has a say and everyone has a voice...but you don't want to vote on anything
even if it isn't meant to be manipulative, it's sure gonna seem that way
Fros7bite - Today at 10:28 PM
I understand that's how it seems but a lot of the guys see that on the surface it may seem that way but in the end it's for long-term benefit the guys that have been here for the longest can see that they've been here because of that
Votes especially majority votes don't usually represent the best direction for a group
procupine - Today at 10:29 PM
so then, you do support a group of "decision makers" as it were
Fros7bite - Today at 10:29 PM
Too many times near this group's Inception a group of people decided on something that would pull us away from our identity or truly mix up the way we do things in a negative way
procupine - Today at 10:29 PM
you're saying two different things
Fros7bite - Today at 10:29 PM
I believe everyone should be a decision-maker everyone should have voice their opinions in general chat and private messages and then based on this consensus and instead of relying on a mass group that talk to one another and Lobby votes a decision can be made it's best for the group based on the opinions of the
People
Sorry about no punctuation I'm speaking into the chat thing
Might seem really wordy
Sometimes a single person with an idea that people don't like at first due to a certain preconception can make the COMMUNITY MUCH better
We've always thrived on such innovation
procupine - Today at 10:32 PM
don't you see how that process can be easily abused
Fros7bite - Today at 10:32 PM
Yes
If I am corrupt, and the rest of the founders are too
But we aren't, and won't be
This isn't politics and policy
No one if forced to be here
In the end of the founders make bad decision there's no community left
Yet we've been here for 10 years
We just want to have fun
All this voting shit takes time effort and people begin haying eachother
Hating
Better a few hate me than eachother