The knowledge and dishonesty of PorcelainPorcupine

11:20:42 AM→ Renjin has joined
11:20:42 AMⓘ Margot Kidder dead at 69 | Iran fires rockets in Israeli occupied Golan Heights hours after President Trump unilaterally withdrawals from the Iran Nuclear Deal
11:20:48 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Renjin
11:22:22 AM@Shirakawasunawhy would you ever read breitbart
11:22:52 AM@Mabusto find someone who agrees with what you already believe
11:23:12 AM@Shirakawasunaand is willing to basically lie to you
11:25:43 AM→ Forest` has joined
11:25:43 AMⓘ ChanServ set mode +o Forest`
11:25:59 AM@Forest`hello
11:26:55 AM@MabusTwigs
11:26:59 AM@Forest`Mabus
11:29:34 AM+RenjinBreitbart has ties to Russia.
11:29:46 AM@xsnlxMabuscity
11:29:47 AM→ PorcelainPorcupine has joined
11:29:53 AM+RenjinDuring the 2016 election, in at least some cases, Russian agents were directly dictating articles.
11:29:53 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v PorcelainPorcupine
11:30:06 AM+RenjinIn at least one case, a Russian agent wrote an article on behalf of one of their authors.
11:30:16 AMⓘ Debates set mode +l 64
11:30:26 AM@xsnlxkompromated
11:30:49 AM+PorcelainPorcupineand in ONE case Putin *personally* held a polonium vial against the lips of a journalist as he was dictating a pro-Trump article!!
11:30:53 AM@xsnlxthey probably have a folder on Bannon a foot thick
11:31:13 AM@xsnlxthat dude looks like a total freak
11:31:28 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: You appear to be lying.
11:32:07 AM+RenjinI wonder what your impulse is for spreading mistruths on the way Russian agents abuse media to enslave the world.
11:33:17 AM+RenjinAnd that is the goal of Putin and his agents -- enslavement of every human on the planet.
11:33:42 AM+RenjinIf you think their goal is something less than that, then you don't properly understand Putin, his propaganda machine, and his geopolitical worldview.
11:33:49 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: do you have a source on your latter claim?
11:34:04 AM+RenjinI was searching for. I believe the author himself made the claim.
11:38:16 AM+PorcelainPorcupinePutin revealed his plans for world enslavement?
11:38:18 AM@Dreamstwiceim trying to remember Margot Kidder... did she play Lois to Chris Reeves Superman?
11:38:26 AM@Godricyes
11:38:37 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Yes, in part, with help from journalists and others.
11:39:09 AM+RenjinPutin has stated, in recorded interviews, that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
11:39:26 AM+RenjinPutin has stated, in recorded interviews, his primary geopolitical goal is the reconstitution of the Soviet Union.
11:39:29 AM+PorcelainPorcupinethe SU, however, wasn't enslaving every human on earth
11:39:30 AM+CharmlessMani doubt the countries that left would agree
11:39:49 AM+RenjinPutin has stated, in recorded interviewers, that "he who controls AI controls the future".
11:40:01 AM+PorcelainPorcupineCharmlessMan: yes, because it was a huge success in armenia, azerbajdzjan, turkmenistan....should i go on?
11:40:02 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: From lack of success, not lack of intention.
11:40:33 AM+RenjinThe Soviet Union was a fear-based dictatorship whose goal was to enslave every human on Earth to the will of the Party.
11:41:09 AM+RenjinPutin's chief propaganda architect, Vladislav Surkov, has invented a new form of tyranny that seeks the literal obliteration of objective truth.
11:41:22 AM+CharmlessManmost of them are doing just fine PP
11:41:38 AM+RenjinBy incorporating elements from post-modernism, contemporary sociology, artistic, philosophy, into messaging and statecraft.
11:42:05 AM+RenjinIn this vision, all people come to organically believe there is no object truth outside of what their faction says it is, and the state is the most powerful faction.
11:42:15 AM+RenjinYou have encountered this last point in Trumpism.
11:42:16 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: now, you appear to have overlooked a tiny detail: putin is not a communist
11:42:33 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I agree that the Putin is not a communist.
11:42:37 AM+RenjinI see no relevance.
11:42:46 AM+RenjinPresumably, you wish to leverage that the Soviet Union was communist.
11:43:01 AM← hotguy28` has left
11:43:09 AM+RenjinI think Putin would say the communism of the Soviet Union was a means to an end, and that end was dominance by the Party.
11:43:19 AM+RenjinNow, he uses different means and mechanisms to achieve the same end.
11:44:00 AM+chootwhat end is that? destitution?
11:44:06 AM+RenjinI'm still looking for a citation for that Breitbart claim.
11:44:06 AM→ Banquo has joined
11:44:12 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Banquo
11:44:12 AM+Renjinchoot: Putin's goal is to enslave every human mind on Earth.
11:44:19 AM+RenjinSo that there can never be any opposition to his vision.
11:44:28 AM+CharmlessManwell he has about 20 years left to convince everyone
11:44:32 AM+RenjinHe is explicitly planning on becoming the Earth's leader of artificial intelligence to help him.
11:44:41 AM+chootwell, he's got the dems convinced
11:44:45 AM Ignoring choot!*@*
11:44:48 AM+Renjinchoot: I put you on ignore.
11:44:53 AM+RenjinAs you're enslaved by Putin.
11:45:04 AM+CharmlessManif he was that popular in russia they wouldn't have had to rig the election
11:45:30 AM+CharmlessManthe russian election i mean, not the us one :)
11:45:34 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: putin is not a member of the party that was running the soviet union
11:45:41 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Agreed.
11:45:46 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: so it seems a rather unlikely goal for him to enslave the world under it, no?
11:45:53 AM+RenjinCharmlessMan: You use whatever tools you have available.
11:46:00 AMⓘ Guest64510 is now known as [e]
11:46:01 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I already subsumed that claim.
11:46:05 AM+CharmlessManif you're putin you do
11:46:13 AM← [e] has left
11:46:14 AM→ [e] has joined
11:46:14 AMⓘ ChanServ set mode +o [e]
11:46:31 AM+RenjinCharmlessMan: Killing humans is a critically important component of tyranny, but not the most important one.
11:46:36 AM+RenjinThe most important one is controlling truth.
11:46:59 AM+RenjinHe literally helped caused choot to immediately blame the Democrats for Putin's behavior.
11:47:05 AM+CharmlessManthe russian state education system must be good then?
11:47:11 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: also, if you consider what Dugin is saying the goal is the exact *opposite* of enslaving every human being under russian rule
11:47:26 AM+RenjinBecause choot's mind needs an enemy to work against. Putin, along with right-wing media, helped craft the Democrats as choot's enemy.
11:47:52 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: What is Dugin saying this regard -- please be more specific
11:48:07 AM@[e]ren choot isnt the topic
11:48:10 AM@[e]thanks
11:48:18 AM@[e][e] [[e]!~floppycut@c-73-18-181-149.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] * LordHungWell
11:48:18 AM@[e]Channels: @#civil_debate @#debates #whatsapp +#debate #Christianops #allnitecafe @#gaychat #islam-debate +#ircdebate +#DoItYourself #sowhat +#ChristianDebate
11:48:18 AM@[e]Connected to server: nonstop.ix.me.dal.net DALnet IX Client Server
11:48:18 AM@[e]has identified for this nick
11:48:18 AM@[e]Idle for 00:00:08, signed on 05/15/2018
11:48:32 AM Ignoring *!*@c-73-18-181-149*
11:48:41 AM* Mabus changes topic to Choot -- Discuss
11:48:43 AM@Mabus:)))
11:48:48 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: https://eurasia-news-online.com/2017/10/15/aleksandr-dugin-economy-and-multipolarity/
11:48:49 AM+pela[ ALEKSANDR DUGIN – ECONOMY AND MULTIPOLARITY – Eurasia News Online  ]
11:49:28 AM+RenjinCan you cite from this article?
11:49:41 AM+PorcelainPorcupineyou could also open it yourself?
11:49:53 AM+PorcelainPorcupinea look at just the picture should make the point
11:49:57 AM+Renjinhttp://fortune.com/2017/09/04/ai-artificial-intelligence-putin-rule-world/
11:49:58 AM+pela[ AI Power Will Lead to World Domination, Says Vladimir Putin | Fortune  ]
11:50:04 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I opened the article.
11:50:06 AM+RenjinIt has lots of text.
11:50:47 AM+PorcelainPorcupineso, Dugin envisions a "multipolar" world, as opposed to a global[ist] world
11:51:07 AM+PorcelainPorcupinethat would appear to be the very opposite of the goal you are claiming russia is working towards
11:51:17 AM+RenjinIt appears Putin does not believe in a multipolar world.
11:51:31 AM+RenjinPutin is on record praising Foundations of Geopolitics, but he must differ on this point.
11:51:42 AM+RenjinWhy do we know he differs on this point?
11:52:09 AM+RenjinBecause Putin is attempting to invade his neighbors, but maybe that's just him establishing the Soviet Union, This Time Not Communism Russian Pole of Influence.
11:52:35 AM+PorcelainPorcupineputin is not trying to invade mexico or paraguay or new zealand
11:52:42 AM+RenjinSecond, Putin's primary strategic aim at this time is the dissolution of the trans-atlantic partnership by sowing chaos in the US and EU.
11:52:53 AM+RenjinI literally said "his neighbors".
11:52:54 AM+PorcelainPorcupinehe is trying to avoid having (more) NATO bases on the russian border
11:53:03 AM+RenjinAnd you said some examples of non-neighbors.
11:53:09 AM+RenjinI will classify that as whataboutism.
11:53:18 AM+RenjinMy first thought of considering you dishonest occurred.
11:53:44 AM+RenjinThere's no basis under international law for him to dictate the treaty affiliation of his neighbors.
11:53:47 AM+PorcelainPorcupinewell, do you have *any* example at all of putin "invading" a country that wasn't part of the soviet sphere?
11:53:55 AM+RenjinThere is no Soviet sphere.
11:53:56 AM+PorcelainPorcupinelike, say, how bush invaded Iraq?
11:54:06 AM+PorcelainPorcupinethere *was* a soviet sphere (of influence)
11:54:10 AM+RenjinI see.
11:54:24 AM+RenjinYou were arguing earlier he couldn't possible recreate the Soviet Union, as he's not a communist.
11:54:25 AM@xsnlxUkraine?
11:54:34 AM+RenjinNow you're explicitly leveraging the Soviet sphere as a basis for your analysis.
11:54:45 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I am unable to discuss America's actions at this time.
11:54:52 AM+RenjinTo do so would be whataboutism.
11:54:59 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: i was arguing his goal couldn't be to enslave the world under the russian communist party...seeing how he's in *opposition* to that party
11:54:59 AM+RenjinWe can discuss it next, though.
11:55:12 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I subsumed that point already.
11:55:26 AM+RenjinPutin doesn't care about the communism of the Soviet Union -- he cares about their power.
11:55:40 AM@xsnlxwho cares what Putin's party is?  he sure as hell doesn't
11:55:44 AM+RenjinI don't believe he believes communism would be an effective mechanism to try and recapture that power.
11:56:15 AM+RenjinI believe he thinks post-modernism based propaganda coupled with being the world's leader of AI could be a basis for a new Soviet Union.
11:56:24 AM← pheno has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)
11:56:24 AM@xsnlxI think Putin will call his party whatever best suits the illusion he is trying to create
11:56:29 AM+RenjinCorrect.
11:56:37 AM+RenjinIt will simultaneously be no party and all the parties.
11:57:04 AM→ pheno has joined
11:57:11 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v pheno
11:57:20 AM+PorcelainPorcupinexsnlx: the russian communist party still exists, they have representatives in the duma and they had a presidential candidate...so if putin wants the world enslaved under that party he is not really on the right side
11:57:34 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: The basis of the international community is you're the master of your territory, and you don't get to attack others except on two grounds: UNSC authorization, and self-defense.
11:57:49 AM+RenjinPre-emptive attacks against your neighbors because you're really sure they shouldn't join NATO is illegal.
11:58:06 AM+RenjinAnd to hold to an ideology that Putin has that right would lead to the pre-WW1 era.
11:58:15 AM→ Hedrin has joined
11:58:15 AM+RenjinIn which each nation-state jockeys with the others in the game of warfare.
11:58:16 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Hedrin
11:58:24 AM+HedrinHello
11:58:29 AM@xsnlxPP, you seem to think political parties run Russia, that's false, Russia is only the facade for Putin's crime syndicate
11:58:40 AM+RenjinCorrect.
11:58:47 AM+RenjinPutin has transcended political parties.
11:58:48 AM@xsnlxPutin only allows parties and elections as window dressing to his charade
11:58:55 AM+RenjinCorrect.
11:59:02 AM+RenjinPutin literally helps opposition parties.
11:59:10 AM+RenjinIt's part of the post-modernist messaging of Surkov.
11:59:12 AM+phenoyay, it's infrastructure week again!
11:59:22 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: are you of the opinion that the current legalistic area is working better than the pre-WWI era?
11:59:24 AM+RenjinWhen that party has success, it is revealed it's actually part of Putin's system.
11:59:31 AM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Correct.
11:59:37 AM@xsnlxyup, just like MS would sometimes help Apple because they *needed* an Apple, just a hobbled one
11:59:48 AM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: some evidence please
11:59:49 AM+RenjinThere are various graphs that show the rate of fatalities in state-state warfare from WW1 to present.
11:59:59 AM+RenjinThe rate of state-state violence is at all-time lows.
12:00:29 PM+RenjinThe rate of non-state violence has increase from 1945, but it's at most a few percent of state-state violence levels in the pre-WW1 era, for example.
12:01:09 PM+RenjinPutin has revealed to us, along with dictators of the past, that truth is actually the primary opponent of tyranny.
12:01:18 PM+RenjinThat might sound hokey-dokey, but it appears to be literally true.
12:01:20 PM← Forest` has quit (Quit: After 20 years I finally figured out how to make a quit message.)
12:01:23 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: that's a nice piece of pinker-bullshit parroting, you might wish to consider what taleb said about this argument
12:01:34 PM+RenjinI am not citing Pinker in this regard.
12:01:42 PM+RenjinThough, his claims are consistent.
12:01:45 PM+PorcelainPorcupineyou just parroted pinker's claim
12:01:49 PM+RenjinFalse.
12:02:00 PM+RenjinMy source is not Pinker.
12:02:10 PM+RenjinPinker's argument extends to pre-history, which is unnecessary.
12:02:21 PM+RenjinYou can directly look at various records for WW1 to present.
12:02:39 PM+RenjinI'm not familiar with Taleb in this context.
12:02:45 PM+RenjinCan you summarize his argument?
12:02:58 PM+PorcelainPorcupineand that makes the argument even worse bullshit: there's been *one* major conflict since then...that's hardly a long enough interval to draw the conclusion you are drawing
12:03:28 PM+RenjinThere have been many conflicts since WW1.
12:03:43 PM+RenjinThere's been 1 or 2 (depending on whether the boundaries are inclusive) at a certain scale.
12:03:49 PM+RenjinThis does not render all other smaller conflicts non-existant.
12:03:57 PM+RenjinFurthermore, the decreased frequency is part of the argument.
12:04:05 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: how big share of the war deaths since wwi were during wwii?
12:04:08 PM+RenjinThough, you are right that it could partially be a statistical anomaly.
12:04:34 PM+RenjinI'd have to search. I could make a guess.
12:05:03 PM+RenjinSince, WW1, I would guess WW2 fatalities is over 50% of all fatalities that occurred in state-state violence.
12:06:07 PM+CharmlessManwe repopulate the planet much more quickly than wars wipe populations out
12:06:24 PM+RenjinThis source says 65-75 million for WW2, and 41 million since 1945
12:06:30 PM+Renjinhttps://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+have+died+in+wars+since+1945&oq=how+many+have+died+in+wars+...
12:06:33 PM+pela[ how many have died in wars since 1945 - Google Search  ]
12:06:36 PM+Renjinhttps://www.clingendael.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/20060800_cdsp_occ_leitenberg.pdf
12:06:53 PM← pheno has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)
12:06:55 PM+RenjinCharmlessMan: Have you seen population growth across human history?
12:06:57 PM+CharmlessMan200,000 people would need to die every day in conflicts, just for the global population to stay the same
12:07:09 PM@xsnlxCM, you have my vote
12:07:15 PM+RenjinThere is an huge explosion starting the laste 1700s, and then a ridiculous one around 1950
12:07:22 PM+Renjinhehe
12:07:27 PM+CharmlessManpeaked off a bit now, but only in industrialised nations
12:07:38 PM+pela-[YouTube]- [( The Fallen of World War II )] [Uploader: Neil Halloran] [Duration: 18:31]  [Views: 3657640]
12:07:40 PM+RenjinWorld population is increasing at a fast rate
12:07:40 PM+CharmlessManafrica is still going great guns
12:07:46 PM+RenjinYep
12:07:54 PM+RenjinAfrica is modeled to add 3 billion by 2100
12:07:57 PM+RenjinThat should be good!
12:08:06 PM+RenjinLet's add 3 billion humans where they have poor governments
12:08:19 PM+RenjinThat's gotta lead to some pogroms
12:08:21 PM+CharmlessManthey can't feed or provide basic medical aid for the people they already have
12:08:27 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: so, wwii dwarfs the other conflicts since wwi...this should tell you that you have nowhere enough data to draw any reliable conclusions
12:08:53 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I think there is some validity to what you are saying, and some validity to what I am saying
12:09:09 PM+RenjinIt's generally accepted the post-WW2 order has greatly decreased major state-state violence.
12:09:25 PM+CharmlessMani guess unreliable conclusions will have to suffice for now then PorcelainPorcupine
12:09:29 PM← sardaukar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
12:10:00 PM+CharmlessMangoogle it
12:10:10 PM+CharmlessMani think it was a typo though
12:10:19 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Given that Russia is interfering in the elections and affairs of the UK, France, Germany, and the US, how do you explain that in regards to the multi-polar model
12:10:19 PM+PorcelainPorcupineCharmlessMan: because the option to not blindly jump to fantastic conclusion did not occur to you?
12:10:40 PM+RenjinIf you consider each year a data point, which is reasonable, we have 73 data points
12:10:56 PM+RenjinWhich renders your "blindly jump" a strawman, literally
12:11:26 PM+CharmlessManyou could consider each month a data point then you have 886, if my maths is corect
12:11:40 PM+RenjinThat seems pretty noisy, but yes
12:11:48 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: that's an interesting linguistic trick, when russia starts up a tv channel and comments on election in the US they are "interfering" and "colluding"...when the US sets up a propaganda central with the *explicit* goal of dislodging particular politicians in russia they are "fighting for freedom and democracy"
12:11:51 PM+RenjinOr, you could consider the entire period a single data point
12:12:04 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Discussing the US at this time is whataboutism
12:12:16 PM+RenjinWould you like to discuss what constitutes 'interfering in the elections'?
12:12:20 PM+RenjinBecause that would be relevant
12:12:32 PM+RenjinYou do have three cases of whataboutism in this conversation, now
12:12:52 PM+PorcelainPorcupinewell, having a russian tv/web news outlet that comments on the election is not "interfering" in it in any reasonable sense
12:12:58 PM+RenjinOkay
12:13:01 PM+RenjinThat is a valid claim
12:13:15 PM+RenjinI mostly agree, though perhaps not in all contexts
12:13:28 PM+RenjinYou might ask me 'What do you consider election interference?'
12:13:36 PM+RenjinRather than providing an example you think is definitely not election interference
12:13:43 PM+RenjinYou know, the way philosophers have been doing it since Socrates
12:13:48 PM+Renjin'What do you mean by X?'
12:13:49 PM+PorcelainPorcupinesending an army of russian agents out stuffing ballot boxes would be interfering in the US election...have you any evidence of such an army?
12:13:57 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: That is a fallacy
12:14:04 PM+RenjinThat's at least your fourth
12:14:14 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I'm going to let you in on a secret
12:14:40 PM+RenjinYou'll be surprised to learn that people were debating each other since at least the time of Socrates, in the 'West', and that process isn't owned by the rhetorical, factional techniques of 21st century political 'discussion'
12:14:44 PM+RenjinYou know, like what you're doing
12:14:58 PM+RenjinHere's the structure of the current argument:
12:15:04 PM+RenjinMe: Russia does X
12:15:08 PM+RenjinYou: Y is not a case of X
12:15:19 PM+RenjinYou: Z is a case of X. Where is your evidence for X?
12:15:21 PM+CharmlessManyou mean Me: Floods the channel
12:15:23 PM+RenjinZ, sorry
12:15:33 PM+RenjinMy average post length is near the average post length
12:15:38 PM+RenjinTherefore, I am merely typing fast, rather than 'flooding'
12:15:49 PM+CharmlessManit amounts to the same thing
12:15:55 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Your two posts are expressly fallacious
12:15:55 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: so, instead of the socratic lecture...maybe you would be so kind as to tell us what evidence you have of russian election interference?
12:16:03 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: That is better
12:16:26 PM+RenjinUnless Y and Z form a partition set of X, showing that Russia doesn't do Y or Z does not tell us if they do X
12:17:02 PM+RenjinThesis: Russia has interfered with elections or major policy debates in the UK, France, Germany, and the US.
12:17:19 PM+PorcelainPorcupineit's "partition of X" actually, not "partition set"
12:17:52 PM+Renjinhttp://mathworld.wolfram.com/SetPartition.html
12:17:54 PM+pela[ Set Partition -- from Wolfram MathWorld  ]
12:18:08 PM+RenjinI agree "partition of X" is more standard.
12:19:13 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: also, what you *were* intending was "cover", not "partition"
12:19:27 PM+RenjinIn what ways has Russia interfered with elections in these nations?
12:19:36 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: You are correct.
12:19:47 PM@xsnlxhttps://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-election-hacking/
12:19:48 PM+pela[ What We Know And Don’t Know About Election Hacking | FiveThirtyEight  ]
12:19:50 PM+RenjinCover was the essence of what I was going for, not that Y and Z are disjoint.
12:20:38 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Russia sets up 'media' organizations in host nations, for example RT America, the goal of which is to directly inject Russian state narratives into the democratic discussion
12:20:58 PM+RenjinWhy is this election interference? Is Russia allowed to inject its Russian state narratives in any way?
12:21:15 PM+RenjinYes, they are allowed to do that. They should issue formal documents which indicate they're from the Russia state
12:21:20 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: that appear to be a fallacious attempt to save face: if Y and Z cover X then showing that p is not in either Y or Z shows that p is not in X...it's entirely *false* to claim Y and Z have to be disjoint for that implication to be valid
12:21:36 PM+RenjinUsing American personalities that a typical observer will not know is repeating Russian state narratives is astroturfing and a form of deception
12:21:51 PM+PorcelainPorcupine*appears
12:21:55 PM+RenjinThe express goal of which is to move the Overton window in the USA closer to Russia *without the informed consent of the participants*
12:21:58 PM← Jarod has quit (Ping timeout)
12:22:15 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I have already agreed to that
12:22:17 PMⓘ Debates set mode +l 61
12:22:27 PM+RenjinI expressly made the same point you made, before you made it
12:22:31 PM→ Jarod has joined
12:22:36 PM+RenjinAnd then you made it, and said I didn't make it, and that I had bad intentions
12:22:41 PMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Jarod
12:22:42 PM+RenjinThis is bad
12:22:56 PM+Renjin12:19:36 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: You are correct.
12:22:56 PM+Renjin12:19:47 PM@xsnlxhttps://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-election-hacking/
12:22:56 PM+Renjin12:19:48 PM+pela[ What We Know And Don’t Know About Election Hacking | FiveThirtyEight  ]
12:22:56 PM+Renjin12:19:50 PM+RenjinCover was the essence of what I was going for, not that Y and Z are disjoint.
12:23:02 PM+Renjin"Cover was the essence of what I was going for"
12:23:07 PM+Renjin"not that Y and Z are disjoint"
12:23:25 PM+Renjin12:21:20 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: that appear to be a fallacious attempt to save face: if Y and Z cover X then showing that p is not in either Y or Z shows that p is not in X...it's entirely *false* to claim Y and Z have to be disjoint for that implication to be valid
12:23:50 PM+RenjinFurthermore, this isn't the primary point of discussion
12:24:08 PM+RenjinThe primary point of discussion is means by which Russia interferes in non-polar nations
12:24:20 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: yes, "the essence" was an attempt to whitewash a *fallacy*
12:24:29 PM+RenjinFalse.
12:24:40 PM+Renjin"I was wrong"
12:24:46 PM+RenjinOops.
12:24:48 PM+RenjinI haven't yet said that
12:24:57 PM+PorcelainPorcupineyour claim: for the implication in question to be valid Y and Z need to form a partition of X
12:25:00 PM+RenjinI was wrong in what I said on the point you're discussing.
12:25:00 PM+PorcelainPorcupinethat claim is false
12:25:16 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: Your last claim is false.
12:25:19 PM+RenjinI do not have that claim.
12:25:25 PM+RenjinI had that claim. You corrected it. I modified my claim.
12:25:26 PM← Banquo has quit (Quit:)
12:25:38 PM+RenjinYou appear to have an incorrect definition of essence.
12:25:48 PM@xsnlxtu quoque fallacy
12:25:54 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: define: essence
12:26:16 PM+RenjinI think standard usage of essence is, The most important point, or a summarization
12:26:21 PM+RenjinEssence is much, much stronger than, though
12:26:23 PM+Renjin"the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character."
12:26:32 PM@xsnlxif you're going to play the tu quoque fallacy card later, just save us all time and admit that our point is valid first
12:26:59 PM+RenjinI stated the 'indispensable quality of [my argument]' was what you said it was
12:27:10 PM← ogrom has quit (Client closed connection)
12:27:10 PM+RenjinThat is in no way congruent with your description of that as "white wash"
12:27:17 PM+RenjinAlso, you have not discussed the primary topic, now, for almost 10 minutes
12:27:29 PM+RenjinWhich is long enough to classify this as rhetorical distraction
12:27:32 PM+RenjinIn my view
12:27:51 PM+RenjinHere's a definition for white wash: "deliberately attempt to conceal unpleasant facts about (a person or organization)."
12:28:00 PM+PorcelainPorcupineok, let's return to the covering of election meddling
12:28:11 PM+RenjinI think I need a pause
12:28:19 PM+RenjinI lost respect for your mind
12:28:22 PM@xsnlxright, some kind of deflection/dissembling only to say, yeah, everything you said is true, but we do it too
12:28:53 PM+Renjin11 minutes were spent on that point
12:29:12 PM+RenjinWhen I agree to your corrections within 2 minutes
12:29:27 PM@xsnlxthen why the vast waste of time arguing against the premise?
12:29:31 PM+RenjinNow, I'm supposed to discuss a more complex topic with you
12:29:42 PM@xsnlxnow we can discuss the false equivocation instead of quibbling
12:29:50 PM+Renjinxsnlx: Who are you engaging?
12:30:07 PM@xsnlxthe channel?
12:30:28 PM+RenjinOkay
12:30:36 PM+RenjinI don't see any user called 'the channel'
12:30:40 PM+RenjinMaybe they're a chat rapper
12:30:56 PM+RenjinI am ready to continue, PorcelainPorcupine
12:31:21 PM@xsnlxthere were at least 3 people that seemed to find the premise that Russian illegitimately interferes in foreign elections somehow controversial
12:31:33 PM+RenjinYes
12:31:37 PM+RenjinCause America does it too!
12:31:37 PM+PorcelainPorcupineso, i suggested a particular way of election meddling
12:31:38 PM* Hedrin calls 9-11
12:31:48 PM+PorcelainPorcupineyou appear to be suggesting that russian has been using some other way(s)?
12:32:04 PM+RenjinI have entered into discussion the first mechanism
12:32:07 PM+RenjinYes
12:32:59 PM+RenjinRussia sets up 'media' organizations in host nations, for example RT America, the goal of which is to directly inject Russian state narratives into the democratic discussion
12:33:06 PM+RenjinWhy is this election interference? Is Russia allowed to inject its Russian state narratives in any way?
12:33:12 PM+Renjines, they are allowed to do that. They should issue formal documents which indicate they're from the Russia state
12:33:21 PM+RenjinUsing American personalities that a typical observer will not know is repeating Russian state narratives is astroturfing and a form of deception
12:33:27 PM+RenjinThe express goal of which is to move the Overton window in the USA closer to Russia *without the informed consent of the participants*
12:33:31 PM+RenjinI can say a bit more on this
12:33:39 PM+RenjinFurthermore, not all political messaging is equal
12:33:56 PM+RenjinIf your political messaging is that 'Position X on topic Y is best', and I disagree, that remains valid political messaging
12:34:28 PM+RenjinHowever, what RT America does, for example, is convey, across topics that 'There is no objective reality for truth -- everything is factionalized, and your opponents are wicked and hate what you hold dear'
12:34:35 PM+RenjinThis is not valid political messaging in democracy
12:34:50 PM+RenjinAs it promotes factionalism, whereas the republic is designed to be meta-factionalist
12:35:34 PM+RenjinThe express goal of why RT America -- part of the Russia state -- does this is because, according to Foundations of Geopolitics -- they wish to promote civil discord in the USA
12:35:45 PM+RenjinAs part of their weakening of NATO and US foreign power abroad
12:35:45 PM+CharmlessManyeh say a bit more, we haven't heard enough yet - see if you can fill a whole page with your waffle :)
12:36:01 PM+RenjinCharmlessMan: When you find my chat undesirable, select my name and choose ignore
12:36:01 PM+PorcelainPorcupineRenjin: so, basically, if RT only employed burly men with stalinesque moustaches named Ivan, Andrei or Pjotr to inject the russian perspectives you would be fine with it?
12:36:08 PM+RenjinCharmlessMan: You are responsible for your emotions
12:36:14 PM+CharmlessManthanks for the tip :)
12:36:16 PM+RenjinPorcelainPorcupine: I have put you on ignore.
12:36:19 PM Ignoring PorcelainPorcupine!*@*
12:36:43 PM+RenjinAs your last post unabashedly express hatred for philosophy from Socrates to the current age
12:36:47 PM+RenjinAnd I cannot accept that