a discusssion of greenspan finance guide pricing

/games on 20150721. Not for the faint of heart.
[00:53] Xairon: Greenspans shot up to 25k? >.>
[00:53] KoL Miners Daughter: Dinsey
[00:53] yojimboS_LAW: people not understanding dinsey.
[00:55] wrldwzrd89: Eh, I never used those for farming purposes and still don't, unless I can procure a free one.
[00:55] yojimboS_LAW: (greenspans aren't cost effective in dinsey at 25k/ea)
[00:57] Xairon: Welp, time to sell all the greenspans I have
[00:58] KoL Miners Daughter: now we need the next charter to use candy canes
[00:58] yojimboS_LAW: I guess buying these at 2k meat each was smart :| Meh.
[00:58] KARI FILTH: good luck selling at 25k
[00:58] yojimboS_LAW: thanks!
[00:58] KARI FILTH: I'm not buyign
[00:59] yojimboS_LAW: I appreciate the encouragement.
[00:59] KoL Miners Daughter: he could sell them at 20k each and make a large profit
[01:00] KARI FILTH: I did the math already. without buying greenspans, I lose 330k a month, buying them 7k over price hits me harder.
[01:01] Xairon: Dump all the ones you have while you still can!
[01:01] Xairon malls ferociously
[01:02] yojimboS_LAW: kari, so what you're saying is that buying greenspans makes you 330k/month at a somewhat lower price but you're not willing to use them? Meh.
[01:02] KARI FILTH: meanwhile, let's talk about the guys selling 6000 for 100k, 300 for 1mil, and 200 for 100mil
[01:03] KARI FILTH: 2 and a half months until the pool of 25k dries up. no one's buying at 50k -hic-
[01:03] yojimboS_LAW: fwiw, no one would make a profit using greenspans when they're 25k each. noncombats are hard.
[01:04] KARI FILTH: I just think it makes more sense to sell at a more reasonable price instead of trying to gut your consumer
[01:04] yojimboS_LAW: you aren't my consumer.
[01:04] yojimboS_LAW: my consumer is mall speculators.
[01:04] wrldwzrd89: Hi Kari
[01:05] KARI FILTH: I fail to see how I, as a meat farmer who uses greenspans daily, am not your primary target here
[01:05] yojimboS_LAW: because you would lose meat if you purchased them from me.
[01:06] yojimboS_LAW: like, every 100 turns, you would make roughly 1k less meat.
[01:06] wrldwzrd89 speculates on the mall speculators' next action. :P
[01:06] KARI FILTH: so you're selling them at a terrible price so that... other people sell them at a terrible price?
[01:06] yojimboS_LAW: since it's not cost effective for you to buy them at my listed price, you are not my consumer.
[01:06] KoL Miners Daughter: yep
[01:06] KARI FILTH: and then... no one actually buys them because they're too high?
[01:06] KARI FILTH: economics: how do they work?
[01:06] yojimboS_LAW: 'no one'
[01:06] KoL Miners Daughter: he is selling them to people who believe the price will keep raising
[01:07] Xairon: one sold in the past hour
[01:07] yojimboS_LAW: kmd gets it. Meh.
[01:07] Xairon: wait, time zone
[01:07] KoL Miners Daughter: t
[01:07] KARI FILTH: one, and that number would be 20 times higher if the price were lower
[01:07] KoL Miners Daughter: a fool and his meat
[01:08] yojimboS_LAW: they'll all sell eventually.
[01:08] yojimboS_LAW: that's all that really matters to me.
[01:08] wrldwzrd89: I certainly won't buy.
[01:08] yojimboS_LAW: noted.
[01:08] KARI FILTH: 2 and a half months and that's assuming you actually have 20 people buying a day
[01:09] yojimboS_LAW: why would you assume those things?
[01:09] wrldwzrd89: Even at 200 Meat per Greenspan they're not really worth it <_<
[01:09] yojimboS_LAW: wrld, what do you mean?
[01:09] KoL Miners Daughter: Uncle Greenspan's Bathroom Finance Guide (115)
[01:10] KARI FILTH: just from a casual observation, I've noticed maybe about 20 people with full on dinsey-ready gear. these are the people most likely to be using greenspans
[01:10] wrldwzrd89: yojimbos_LAW, the way they work means I'm largely unwilling to use them at ANY price.
[01:11] yojimboS_LAW: uh...okay.
[01:11] yojimboS_LAW: kari, none of those people will buy my greenspans.
[01:11] KARI FILTH: I could very well be wrong on my numbers, but just remember, ultimately, it comes down to the people using the iem to determine the price
[01:12] yojimboS_LAW: they will make more meat without them than they will with them. it would be foolish :|
[01:12] wrldwzrd89: The simple reason for that: I meatfarm so infrequently that I mgiht as well claim I don't.
[01:12] KARI FILTH: even the idiots who buy because they think they'll get higher will eventually lower them
[01:13] yojimboS_LAW: if you say so!
[01:13] wrldwzrd89: *might
[01:14] yojimboS_LAW: so, you wouldn't buy them at 200 meat/each to sell to people that do meatfarm, wrld? seems strange.
[01:15] wrldwzrd89: Nope. Because I am a KoL heart I'd rather give them away.
[01:15] yojimboS_LAW: mmkay.
[01:16] KARI FILTH: dinsey has been around long enough that your scheme isn't going to work, jimbo. people know that greenspans are only bought at prices that make sense
[01:16] yojimboS_LAW: 'scheme'
[01:16] wrldwzrd89: Generally speaking, I'm willing to take huge losses on purchases because I see it as being in KoL's best interest, rather than my own.
[01:16] KARI FILTH: if the price is too high, there's no point in buying from you to raise the price themselves
[01:16] KARI FILTH: no one will be willing to buy a sure loss
[01:16] wrldwzrd89: A profit seeker is NOT me.
[01:16] Nickles: a day's worth of meatfarming is about $1 in profit, at best?
[01:16] yojimboS_LAW: you're acting like I'm some kind of asshole for liquidating a several year old investment.
[01:17] wrldwzrd89: Hi Nickles!
[01:17] wrldwzrd89: Was actually looking for you.
[01:17] KARI FILTH: I'm just saying you could help everyone around, including yourself, by dropping the price to 18k, which people are comfortable with
[01:17] yojimboS_LAW: meat farming is closer to$0.70
[01:17] Nickles: i farmed 10 mil in HC at the end of the last pvp season
[01:17] KARI FILTH: instead of acting likepeople will raise the price, making you a small fortune
[01:17] Nickles: then i didnt know what to do with it
[01:18] yojimboS_LAW: kari, why am I obliged to make less meat to let people play progress quest slightly better?
[01:18] KARI FILTH: simple: because people know that greenspans don't sell at 25k. so no one will want to buy yours on the grounds of 'omg, the price is rising!' -hic-
[01:19] yojimboS_LAW: that's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.
[01:19] yojimboS_LAW: it's not mine.
[01:19] KARI FILTH: we'll see how much is opinion when the price doesn't rise -hic-
[01:19] Angeloss268: What is even happening?!
[01:19] yojimboS_LAW: I've waited 3 years; I can wait some more.
[01:19] wrldwzrd89: ANGELOSS!
[01:20] Angeloss268: Hello, wrld.
[01:20] KARI FILTH: just gonna be another person with a large amount of overpriced goods locked away
[01:20] yojimboS_LAW: angeloss, kari is mad at me for not giving away meat to meat farmers that I'm apparently preying on.
[01:20] KARI FILTH: just like the poor saps with 6000 for 100k
[01:21] KARI FILTH: I'm not mad, I'm just saying you're making a bad assumption based on the market
[01:21] yojimboS_LAW: you don't seem to realize that people are stupid, though.
[01:21] Angeloss268: I'm a meat farmer.
[01:21] Angeloss268: Well, for the time being.
[01:21] yojimboS_LAW: there's basically no rational explanation for most of these >2k sales [link] http://pastebin.com/ iudMssK2
[01:22] Chronik: easy does it
[01:22] wrldwzrd89: Hey, Chronik!
[01:23] Angeloss268: My name is not on the sales history.
[01:23] Angeloss268: Crii evritim. ;~;
[01:24] uberturtle: angeloss, angeloss... college bound australian, right?
[01:25] Angeloss268: Hi.
[01:25] Angeloss268: Yes, university is in a week. Well, Semester 2 starts next week.
[01:26] uberturtle: Semester 2?
[01:26] Angeloss268: The second semester.
[01:26] KARI FILTH: "you don't seem to realize that people are stupid, though." meatfarmers like those with optimised outfits, who are the people buying greenspans, aren't stupid. we spend days working on our shit
[01:26] Angeloss268: Unis run in two semesters.
[01:26] uberturtle: I am well aware of it
[01:27] uberturtle: Never heard fall semester called Semester 2
[01:27] wrldwzrd89: hi uberturtle!
[01:27] yojimboS_LAW: I'm not talking about meat farming.
[01:27] KARI FILTH: if it's not making us money, we cut it out. if the price is too high, we won't pay it. which means people won't buy from you to raise the price because they'll see the price isn't rising
[01:27] yojimboS_LAW: I'm talking about people buying shit in the mall.
[01:27] KARI FILTH: you don't seem to grasp that you're betting YOUR meat gains off of what WE will ultimately pay
[01:27] Angeloss268: Err, I'll just call it summer and winter semester.
[01:27] yojimboS_LAW: no. you won't pay anything for it.
[01:28] yojimboS_LAW: because a smart meat farmer like yourself would notice that they aren't cost effective at 25k each.
[01:28] wrldwzrd89: Ah, I think I get it.
[01:28] KARI FILTH: so you're saying your investors are stupid, then
[01:28] yojimboS_LAW: thus I'm not doing any harm to smart meat farmers.
[01:28] Angeloss268: What item is this?
[01:28] yojimboS_LAW: I am, yes.
[01:28] yojimboS_LAW: greenspans, angeloss.
[01:29] KARI FILTH: I'm saying anyone who would deal in greenspans knows how farmers operate and won't take your bait
[01:29] Angeloss268: Never heard of them. and I'd rather buy things I can profit from.
[01:29] wrldwzrd89: Yojimbos is betting that mall speculators, rather than farmers, will buy Greenspans and... speculate some more. XD
[01:29] KARI FILTH: no point buying somethign to jack up the price on... if no one will buy it at the price as it is
[01:29] yojimboS_LAW: sure there is.
[01:30] wrldwzrd89: Kari, that's not the point.
[01:30] KARI FILTH: your assumption requires someone stupid enough to actually think someone will buy from them
[01:30] yojimboS_LAW: it's a limited resource; you can buy them all.
[01:30] Angeloss268: Wait...-404% meat?!
[01:30] Angeloss268: Why would anyone buy them at all?
[01:30] yojimboS_LAW: because that's not what they do.
[01:30] wrldwzrd89: Angeloss, that happens if you have 0 turns of the effect they give.
[01:30] yojimboS_LAW: wiki it.
[01:31] wrldwzrd89: Greenspans are weird. Along with bottles of bubbles.
[01:31] yojimboS_LAW: also, barf mountain isn't the only place to use greenspans.
[01:31] KARI FILTH: no, but it's certainly the best.in fact,t hose at barf mountain are more likely to buy higher
[01:31] KARI FILTH: only reason I buy at 18k is because I'm at barf mountain
[01:32] yojimboS_LAW: it's the best for lazy farming, sure.
[01:32] Angeloss268: Ah, that makes sense.
[01:32] yojimboS_LAW: other zones have higher base meat drops and can get you more meat/adventure for people who care about putting effort into farming.
[01:32] KARI FILTH: hey, 1.2mil a day ain't bad ;)
[01:32] wrldwzrd89: Kari, you can hit 1.2 million per day reliably? I can't. T_T
[01:32] Angeloss268: I get 1.4mil, but my meat farming gear is...weird, I guess?
[01:32] yojimboS_LAW: it's certainly worse than 2m/day and/or having a job.
[01:33] KARI FILTH: >implying I don't have a job
[01:33] uberturtle: Whoa
[01:33] uberturtle: Hey now, let's keep real life out of this
[01:33] yojimboS_LAW: you have a job and still meat farm?
[01:33] yojimboS_LAW: I don't understand that.
[01:33] KARI FILTH: I farm to give meat to other gamers, not for myself
[01:34] KARI FILTH: if I have enough to restock at the end of the month, the rest is charity
[01:34] yojimboS_LAW: it doesn't matter what you do with the meat, though.
[01:34] KARI FILTH: only reason I still have this account is to help others out
[01:35] Angeloss268: Yeah, never mind. Kari has a hobo monkey, I don't. ;~;
[01:36] KARI FILTH: the assertion that someone with a job wouldn't meat farm is blissful ignorance at it's finest
[01:36] KARI FILTH: Ange: one sec, lemmie open up my outfit
[01:36] yojimboS_LAW: not really, but okay.
[01:36] KARI FILTH: there ya go, ange
[01:36] yojimboS_LAW: I value my time, so I donate instead of farming. I assume people that farm instead do not value their time.
[01:36] yojimboS_LAW: I value my time, so I donate instead of farming. I assume people that farm instead do not value their time.
[01:37] KARI FILTH: what time? I spend 20 seconds setting up mafia
[01:37] KARI FILTH: click and go
[01:37] rOcKy: what SLAW said
[01:37] Angeloss268: >KoLMafia.
[01:37] yojimboS_LAW: [1:26:23] [games] KARI FILTH: "you don't seem to realize that people are stupid, though." meatfarmers like those with optimised outfits, who are the people buying greenspans, aren't stupid. we spend days working on our shit
[01:37] yojimboS_LAW: days ==> time.
[01:37] KARI FILTH: days THINKING -hic-
[01:38] yojimboS_LAW: thinking about farming.
[01:38] KARI FILTH: doing calculations doesn't take a lot of effort
[01:38] yojimboS_LAW: I agree.
[01:38] Angeloss268: I don't understand the monster modifiers.
[01:38] Spam89: about something I presume they enjoy.....
[01:38] yojimboS_LAW: sure, some people enjoy progress quest.
[01:38] wrldwzrd89: Angeloss, Turgid = 5x normal HP, for instance. The modifiers are applied left-to-right, if there's more than one.
[01:39] wrldwzrd89: Hey Spam89
[01:39] Spam89: hey wrld
[01:40] KARI FILTH: and it's ignorant, jimbo, because it's free meat.
[01:40] KARI FILTH: even if I were donating, it's still an extra boost for little to no effort
[01:40] yojimboS_LAW: [link] https:// en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ Opportunity_cost
[01:40] Angeloss268: Oh, I was looking at Jimbos' profile the whole time, lmao.
[01:42] KARI FILTH: you've lost this argument. deal with it. I spend 5 minutes a month on dealing with mafia and make 33mil
[01:42] Angeloss268: It's better than mine, I guess.
[01:42] KARI FILTH: you're not gonna tell me it's not 'worth it'
[01:42] Spam89: I dont think oppourtunity cost applies to something you enjoy and do for entertainment. Or at least its a very... interesting way to make life decisions based soley on opportunity cost
[01:43] yojimboS_LAW: spam, farming is work.
[01:43] KARI FILTH: what work?
[01:43] Spam89: only if you dont enjoy it
[01:43] yojimboS_LAW: the work that you've said you do. Sigh.
[01:43] KARI FILTH: what part of '20 seconds a day' just isn't getting through?
[01:43] KARI FILTH: you're implying sitting on my ass for 20 seconds is 'work'
[01:43] Deshwitat comes flying into chat, lands and starts poking people with his zombie-hamster-on-a- stick.
[01:43] KARI FILTH: most of which I do with macros
[01:44] Plute: Here's an opportunity cost: Go and do something productive, OR, argue with other strangers over the internet about opportunity costs on getting theoretical income in an online game..
[01:44] wrldwzrd89 pokes Deshwitat back ^_^
[01:44] yojimboS_LAW: you aren't including the time spent planning, which is part of your opportunity cost.
[01:44] wrldwzrd89: Hi Plute!
[01:44] yojimboS_LAW: I mean, it's fine if we disagree on this.
[01:44] Plute: Hey wrld
[01:44] KARI FILTH: tbh, I actually outsource my planning
[01:44] uberturtle: Clearly it's *not* fine
[01:44] Deshwitat tackles wzrd and plute
[01:44] Punany: seems like a topic for another channel. -hic-
[01:44] Deshwitat: what are you guys arguing about?
[01:44] KARI FILTH: so that's even less work
[01:44] yojimboS_LAW: apparently, uber :|
[01:45] wrldwzrd89: Hi Punany!
[01:45] yojimboS_LAW: deshwitat, we're discussing reasons why I should sell items cheaper to farmers because it's in my best interest to make less meat off of my investments.
[01:46] Deshwitat: okey
[01:46] KARI FILTH: again, my point is misconstrued. my point is that you won't make anything off your current price, vs making a fair amount fi you lowered it
[01:46] KARI FILTH: it's just good business
[01:46] yojimboS_LAW: sure, and I disagree completely.
[01:46] KARI FILTH: that's your hangup, then
[01:46] yojimboS_LAW: I'm making less meat from the people you want me to make meat from, yes.
[01:47] wrldwzrd89: Kari, you're not getting that Yojimbos has no intent of selling to farmers.
[01:47] yojimboS_LAW: but I don't intend to sell to them in the first place, so that's not my problem.
[01:47] KARI FILTH: no, I get it
[01:47] Angeloss268: Welp.
[01:47] KARI FILTH: I'm just saying that the people he WANTS to buy from him won't because THEY know it's not goignt o work
[01:47] Angeloss268: Crimbot batteries are now 7.3k each.
[01:47] Plute: Why not just let the laws of supply and demand dictate the future of that particular market.
[01:47] yojimboS_LAW: and that's where you're wrong.
[01:47] uberturtle: Sigh
[01:47] KARI FILTH: which, he's said he's fine waiting for years, so I'm fine letting him have that one
[01:48] uberturtle: There's not much of a know, really
[01:48] yojimboS_LAW: investors do some very stupid things.
[01:48] uberturtle: There's a single price point
[01:48] yojimboS_LAW: I'm banking on them investing in my greenspans, that's all.
[01:48] uberturtle: whether or not you're willing to wait for it to fluctuate is something
[01:48] Deshwitat: wow. im not getting into this argument
[01:48] yojimboS_LAW: good call!
[01:48] Deshwitat puts on his robe and wizard hat
[01:49] Angeloss268: I invest in IoTMs, sometimes.
[01:49] KARI FILTH: Jimbo and I seem to at least understand where the other person sits on the matter
[01:49] wrldwzrd89: I never invest in ANYTHING in KoL.
[01:49] wrldwzrd89: I just can't be bothered.
[01:49] uberturtle: But ultimately uncle green's benefits can be easily calculated, and that makes it harder to go up
[01:49] Angeloss268: Well, that's if I bother to make an effort logging in everyday.
[01:49] yojimboS_LAW: thinking that KoL's markets are driven primarily by supply and demand is silly.
[01:49] Deshwitat: same wzrd! i just get URs and then sells tem and blows the meat xD
[01:50] yojimboS_LAW: uber, there are currently none in the mall that would be worthwhile to use for farming.
[01:50] Plute: Yes, thinking a market is a market is silly, entirely, it functions more like a hot dog, with cheese.
[01:50] yojimboS_LAW: so that's not really important.
[01:50] Spam89: so theres no more greenspans in the mall for what people are currently willing to pay?
[01:50] wrldwzrd89: I am one of those odd people who would farm up, say, 2M meat, then buy up a bunch of a random item and resell at a LOWER price than I bought them at.
[01:50] KARI FILTH: pretty much, spam
[01:50] yojimboS_LAW: spam, it's not a matter of willingness.
[01:50] yojimboS_LAW: it's that buying them for more than ~24k is a net loss.
[01:51] yojimboS_LAW: (I don't know the exact number, since I don't actually care.)
[01:51] wrldwzrd89: Perhaps even at AR (na) levels.
[01:51] Angeloss268: I wish Jick gave me something cool.
[01:52] wrldwzrd89: I don't think I deserve anything cool from Jick.
[01:52] Angeloss268: Because KoLversary is on the 11th of November, and the game has been out for 11 years?
[01:52] yojimboS_LAW: Rejoice! Jick gives cool things to all of the good people of loathing that give him money.
[01:52] uberturtle: I wish the market gave me something cool
[01:52] Deshwitat sit's down with a coffee and a bowl of popcorn
[01:52] Deshwitat: fight already!
[01:53] wrldwzrd89 tackles Deshwitat
[01:53] Plute interjects that there isn't a god, and it's also feesable that Hitler was innocent, and star wars isn't a really good film. There's a few better topics to enjoy debating.
[01:54] Angeloss268: Here is one: Android phone or iPhone?
[01:54] KARI FILTH: iphone is for hipsters -hic-
[01:55] Xairon: Pc vs consoles?
[01:55] yojimboS_LAW: Mac vs. everything else is a fun one.
[01:55] yojimboS_LAW: mostly because people are adamant that Macs are good for anything.