<DetroitLolcat> oh Birkal
<DetroitLolcat> ginga told me to tell you something next time I see you
<DetroitLolcat> .log
<Birkal> he's in the channel lol
<DetroitLolcat> I'm trying to remember what exactly
<imanalt> rofl
<DetroitLolcat> oh
<DetroitLolcat> I got it
<imanalt> new prc when
<DetroitLolcat> he said that nyttyn wants to talk to you
<DetroitLolcat> who is also in the chat
<ginganinja> I told you to tell birkal that nyttyn wants to speak with him
<ginganinja> lol
<imanalt> lol
<Birkal> PRC is now
<Birkal> if any of y'all wanna make threads you can
<Birkal> no one has requested to make one yet lol
<Birkal> except nyttyn -- I think he's writing two
<ginganinja> birkal
<ginganinja> I sent you a PM last PRC cycle
<ginganinja> about mission statement
<ginganinja> and you said "we are busy so maybe later"
<Birkal> yeah I'd be cool with chatting about that now
<ginganinja> and it never made it into that PRC cycle
<Birkal> we're wide open
<ginganinja> lol
<ginganinja> and now nyttyns doing it
<Birkal> couldja bump it for me?
<Birkal> oh ok
<ginganinja> I'm p sure nyttyns doing a thread on mission statement
<imanalt> Birkal i requested one but i think nyttyn is goiong to end up doing it
<ginganinja> do u need to apply to join the PRC this round
<ginganinja> I dont see a thread so its unclear
<Birkal> yeah lemme put up apps tonight
<Birkal> been busy with two jobs x__x
<nyttyn> ginganinja
<ginganinja> birkal
<nyttyn> could you please vocalize your thoughts on mission statement to me? it'd help
<ginganinja> I'm in the middle of an application atm
<ginganinja> 20 pages of fucking writing samples
<nyttyn> well, when you have time.
<ginganinja> + C.V, Covering letter + application
<nyttyn> ...jesus, what are you aplying for?
<ginganinja> its redic
<ginganinja> intelligence analysis
<ginganinja> analyst
<imanalt> what
<imanalt> the fuck is that
<imanalt> "i rate you 7/10 intelligent"
<imanalt> ?
<nyttyn> someone who analyses info
<ginganinja> someone that gets bitched at by WikiLeaks
<nyttyn> and makes reports about trends, likely outcomes, risks, etc that kind of thing
<ginganinja> who eventually lives in Russia
<nyttyn> lol
<imanalt> lol
<ginganinja> job has advantages
<ginganinja> I'll wiretap birkals messages
<ginganinja> hes obv up to no good
<nyttyn> so basically the short of what i've written so far is
<ginganinja> problem of the mission statement is that it juggles two things
<ginganinja> it wants to be competative
<ginganinja> but it also wants to learn
<ginganinja> your market is 2 different groups of people
<ginganinja> the newbies that want to learn and are involved in the casual aspect
<ginganinja> or the competative players that seek an active challenge
<ginganinja> most competative players don't care about Perfect Mate 2.0
<ginganinja> they already know the answers to most questions in the concept submission
<nyttyn> ye, and right now is that we're ultrasaturated with the former, and their interests/desires are thusly dominating CAP.
<ginganinja> Like, imo drop the "balanced for OU"
<ginganinja> thing
<ginganinja> its restrictive
<ginganinja> and its never achievable
<ginganinja> because at least half of CAP don't know what even is balanced for OU
<ginganinja> open it up to right back how it was in DPP
<ginganinja> where there was a redic amount of freedom in the process
<ginganinja> where it was legit "create a pokemon"
<imanalt> surely saying we dont care if its balanced is an issue or am i misunderstanding you here
<ginganinja> rather than "create a pokemon that achieves its concept, answers its questions, is successful and not broken
<ginganinja> I don't care if its balanced imanalt
<ginganinja> anymore
<ginganinja> I get stuck on the balance thing because its in the mission statement
<imanalt> if we make a bunch of unbalanced things it doesnt exactly help our reputation on smogon overall
<ginganinja> well
<ginganinja> that ship sailed
<ginganinja> Caw / Aurumoth
<nyttyn> i think that is an objective reality we have to deal with, balance simply isn't happening anymore, between the influx of new users we've been getting, and the number of users who are stuck in DPP OU or BW OU balance level mentality.
<ginganinja> plus the voting drama with firebot
<ginganinja> like, any rep you had on smogon
<ginganinja> is pretty much non existant
<imanalt> ginganinja just because we've fucked up in the past
<imanalt> doesn't mean we can't fix the rep
<imanalt> at least some
<imanalt> over time
<ginganinja> people have long memories
<imanalt> give it a year and hwo the fuck will remember aurumoth
<ginganinja> and CAP alienated a ton of people
<imanalt> most people are new though
<ginganinja> EXACTLY
<ginganinja> they are new
<ginganinja> they dont know how to play the game
<nyttyn> and that's our userbase now.
<ginganinja> and they need to balance something?
<imanalt> if we could go a year w/ a couple ppl competent saying good things about us, ppl would be fine
<ginganinja> and they need positive discussion?
<imanalt> ginganinja im saying most ppl on smogon are new ginganinja
<ginganinja> its asking too much of them
<imanalt> oops dropped your name twice
<Quanyails> Hmm.
<imanalt> which says they dont have long memories
<imanalt> they just go off what other ppl say
<imanalt> if we dont fuck up for a while and have a couple reasonable ppl saying good things
<imanalt> our rep can be fixed
<ginganinja> lol
<imanalt> and if we're just giving up on our rep just close cap down now
<imanalt> because if our rep doesn't improve, we'll never be worthwhile
<ginganinja> ur rep is gone bb
<DetroitLolcat> CAP has not made a broken Pokemon in 4 projects, and at this point we can laugh at people who still bring up the Firebot trolls for still giving a shit.
<ginganinja> I bet I could make a thread in IS
<ginganinja> saying "lets get rid of CAP badges"
<ginganinja> and id get a ton of support
<imanalt> yes its gone ginganinja
<imanalt> but it can be rebuilt
<imanalt> if we don't have the fucking attitude of "who cares about our rep"
<nyttyn> it's a noble ideal to rebuild our rep
<ginganinja> because people legit don't have a high opinion of CAP atm
<ginganinja> it sucks but atm, thats what it is
<imanalt> obviously the current opinion of us is rightfully shitty
<imanalt> but we should be trying to improve it
<imanalt> rather than saying fuck it lets just fuck around
<ginganinja> you get 1% of the CAP population that knows what its talking about
<ginganinja> vs 99% of the CAP population that doesn't
<ginganinja> but its a community project
<nyttyn> but we literally can't do much without starting to get far more strict on ballots, restricting voting and pariticpaion rights, tc
<imanalt> then maybe the mission statement should be dealing with that
<nyttyn> and that starts killing the purpose of CAP in general.
<ginganinja> exactly
<ginganinja> thats what nyttyn and I want
<imanalt> nyttyn we're talking about literally redefining what the purpose of cap is
<nyttyn> yes.
<imanalt> so who cares if its killing it
<nyttyn> the userbase has already redefined it
<ginganinja> it needs redefining
<imanalt> yes
<nyttyn> we can either attempt to clamp down on that, or redefine the statement itself.
<nyttyn> either way, something has to give, we can't just half ass it and say "oh let's continue being a community project that's completely open AND have the mission statement and our core value be as it is."
<nyttyn> it's one or the other @ this point, and the past few caps have proven that.
<DetroitLolcat> idk, I think Naviathan was pretty good evidence that we're moving in the right direction under the current mission statement.
<DetroitLolcat> It wasn't an amazing project, but it was pretty solid. The discussions weren't bad, the moderation was much stricter, and the end product is usable in OU.
<imanalt> i really strongly disagree
<Quanyails> I'd say that that's the exception. :/
<imanalt> the discussions were on here for 3-4 days
<imanalt> and then everything was decided
<imanalt> after concept assessment everything other than what coverage to give it and heatproof had been decided
<ginganinja> navi lol
<ginganinja> is worthless in OU
<DetroitLolcat> It's not an awful stallbreaker.
<imanalt> idk ginganinja in ou its probably fine, in the playtest meta its rly bad
<ginganinja> which is what it was for
<imanalt> no
<imanalt> its not
<DetroitLolcat> It'd probably be A- rank about now.
<DetroitLolcat> NO
<imanalt> its built for ou
<DetroitLolcat> 20:12 ginganinja which is what it was for
<imanalt> its not built for a meta centralized completely aroun dit
<DetroitLolcat> THIS IS WRONG
<ginganinja> it was built for a Landorus-I metagame
<imanalt> its why i want to get rid of the playtest
<DetroitLolcat> AND WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG
<ginganinja> IT WAS BUILT FOR A LANDORUS-I METAGAME
<DetroitLolcat> kk turning off caps lock
<ginganinja> AND GETS REKT BY IT
<imanalt> ginganinja it would be at least decent in a lando-i metagame though
<ginganinja> its not tho
<ginganinja> lol
<imanalt> based on what
<imanalt> lol
<nyttyn> yeah building a ground weak in a landorus-i metagame was kind of dumb
<ginganinja> its grnd weakness
<imanalt> its good at fucking over a lot of balance cores and shit
<ginganinja> is rly hurting it
<ginganinja> you know what else fucks balance
<ginganinja> Landorus-I
<ginganinja> which is 100% a better mon
<imanalt> and despite that lots of people were fucking successful using balance
<imanalt> so clearly other balance breakers have value
<DetroitLolcat> but every CAP is going to have playtest metas centralized around it. Aurumoth and Caw weren't horribly broken in their playtest metas because the metas got super-centralized about them.
<nyttyn> the playtest ladder was like 50 people tho
<nyttyn> say what you will, it was p small.
<ginganinja> that doesn't make Landorus-I a bad mon
<ginganinja> lol
<imanalt> the playtest means nothing
<imanalt> and it always will
<ginganinja> nyttyn
<ginganinja> back on topic
<DetroitLolcat> If a mon is decent in its playtest meta, it's probably amazing in OU.
<ginganinja> there is a major issue with CAP atm
<imanalt> ginganinja im not saying it does, but im saying the fact that balance was prevalent even with lando-i means other balance breakers still have value
<ginganinja> and thats because there are 2 design philosophies
<ginganinja> there is the
<imanalt> if the mon is good in the playtest its probably broken
<imanalt> lol
<ginganinja> "journey"
<DetroitLolcat> ^^^
<ginganinja> and there is the
<imanalt> its why we shoudl get rid of playtest
<ginganinja> "end product"
<imanalt> its either "oh no x mon sucks we failed"
<imanalt> or the mon is broken
<imanalt> there is no middle ground
<jas61292> <imanalt> if the mon is good in the playtest its probably broken <-- so true
<imanalt> because if its not broken, its rarely usable in the playtest
<ginganinja> people judge how successful it us on the journey
<ginganinja> or the finished product
<ginganinja> ie it can fail the concept its ok
<ginganinja> we learnt something
<ginganinja> or it didn't achieve the concept ergo it failed
<imanalt> ginganinja these are not necessarily two different philosophies
<ginganinja> I think they are
<imanalt> you can not have the first one without the second to some degree
* [1]nyttyn (~nyttyn@synIRC-7B4039DE.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has joined #cap
<jas61292> I have such conflicting feelings on the playtest
<imanalt> becausey ou need to be trying to achieve the concept
<imanalt> so you need to have some sense of failure if you don't achieve
<DetroitLolcat> I also believe they are pretty different.
<ginganinja> I remember Doug saying he didn't care if the pokemon was broken as hell
<imanalt> otherwise we have no guidance
<ginganinja> so long as we learnt something
<ginganinja> it was about the "journey"
<ginganinja> rather than the finished product of "whoops its broken"
<jas61292> on the one hand, the playtest meta is always garbage, and rarely means anything. But on the other hand, it feels so stupid to make something and not test it. Its a no win situation really
<imanalt> yeah jas61292
<ginganinja> the playtest meta only gets good when you have good players
<imanalt> but the current situation is worse than nothing
<ginganinja> which you dont have, because you don't market yourself as a competative forum
<ginganinja> and around and around it goes
* nyttyn has quit (Ping timeout)
* [1]nyttyn is now known as nyttyn
<imanalt> yeah the playtest only has value if you have enough people trying to win instead of just "I HAVE TO USE THE MON"
<jas61292> Yeah
<imanalt> but we don't have players who are competent to do that so w/e
<ginganinja> CAP isn't going to get competative players
<imanalt> ginganinja then close it down
<jas61292> But... who is really going to want to play other than people who want to test the mon?
<ginganinja> if its the community that decides everything
<ginganinja> so you can change the voting to favour competative players
<DetroitLolcat> People that want to win something and beat other good players
<jas61292> I mean... why not play OU or something else where, even if it is not more competitive, at least you get a battle faster.
<ginganinja> but then its no longer community voting
<imanalt> so fuck community voting then
<ginganinja> I'd play OU instead of the playtest
<ginganinja> because its got 1 less Uber
<DetroitLolcat> community voting is a very good thing in CAP IMO, even if it sometimes leads to suboptimal results.
<ginganinja> if you release a ladder with a proven unhealthy pokemon
<imanalt> could we redesign the process so that in the case of a mon getting banned we make alterations to previous parts we have decided on to make it for the current metagame
<ginganinja> allowed in it
<ginganinja> its an unhealthy ladder
<imanalt> because i agree with ginganinja, this 6 month old metagame is very much not ideal
<ginganinja> who wants to play a meta where 73% of all qualified voters said "get this shit out"
<jas61292> Honestly, I normally wouldn't mind just going with bans, but... there is a big difference between something being banned partway though, and something  being banned after almost all competitive stuff is already done
<ginganinja> I tell a lie it was 75%
<ginganinja> 3/4 people said they hated the meta
<DetroitLolcat> I'd be okay with banning Ubers along the way, provided it was before a certain point.
<imanalt> jas61292 either way we don;t want a meta witht he mon still there
<imanalt> instead of jusyt banning ubers
<ginganinja> and then CAPs like "GR8 NEWS GUYS, WHO WANTS TO PLAY IN THIS META"
<imanalt> why not just at the point of the ban pause, have a stage of "would we change what we did before without x mon in the meta"
<imanalt> and just talk about that
<imanalt> and make some changes as needed
<DetroitLolcat> How late into Navi's process was Lando banned btw?
<ginganinja> midway iirc
<nyttyn> ba dum tish
<DetroitLolcat> I like imanalt's idea.
<ginganinja> was banned jun 5
* BarackObama gives channel operator status to nyttyn
<jas61292> We were done by then
<ginganinja> officially
<jas61292> like with everything
<jas61292> except flavor
<DetroitLolcat> best birthday present ever is lando banned then lol
<DetroitLolcat> fuck that thing
* bane has quit (Broken pipe)
<ginganinja> you knew it was suspected tho by like
<ginganinja> May 5
<imanalt> ALSO can we run flavor more concurrently so that we don't basically finish a long time before the end of the project
<imanalt> i dont like that
<jas61292> Yeah I agree with that
<DetroitLolcat> But with how we do movepool night, that's harder to do.
<imanalt> basically always have both a competitive and a flavor stage at once
<DetroitLolcat> *right now
<Quanyails> Hmm.
<DetroitLolcat> because the second half of Movepool is essentially flavor.
<DetroitLolcat> Hmm o_O
<Quanyails> I'm curious. Do you guys enjoy CAP?
<DetroitLolcat> I do, yeah.
<jas61292> If I didn't, I most certainly would not be here
<DetroitLolcat> Though I'm pretty optimistic when it comes to CAP because I don't think it's in nearly as bad a place as some others do.
<ginganinja> [12:23] <Quanyails> I'm curious. Do you guys enjoy CAP?
<ginganinja> its losing its value
<ginganinja> due to its confusion as to what it wants
<imanalt> Quanyails yes and no
<imanalt> for me its sort of
<imanalt> fun until i get too annoyed
<imanalt> like angry bird
<imanalt> s
<Quanyails> I've been seeing you less and less, jas.
<Quanyails> I'm not sure if you've migrated to the CAP metagame/PS!, though.
<jas61292> I will be honest though, I have not enjoyed any of the projects post being TL as much as I did before then. Whether that is because I have such a different perspective now, or if its because I became a mod and actually had responsibilities, lol, I really don't know. I do definitely still enjoy it though.
<imanalt> not sure why anyone would migrate from here to cap meta/ps stuff
<jas61292> I've been pretty busy lately. I'm trying to be more active on here now, but we'll see how it goes.
<imanalt> not many options for going up the cancer ladder, but thats one
<jas61292> If I hang out on PS more, its only cause I like being able to que up a battle whenever I have free time. Mainly challenge cup, or whatever it is now.
<DetroitLolcat> Quany, do you still enjoy CAP? I don't think I've seen a ton of you recently, though that might be because of what time of day I'm on.
<jas61292> though, if I am on PS, I'm normall here too
<DetroitLolcat> (i.e., when it's not daytime at all)
<Quanyails> Well, as you might know, I'm leaving at the end of Naviathan's pre-evos.
<Quanyails> The flavor parts are fun!
<DetroitLolcat> Like leaving for good, or coming back for just the flavor, or?
<Quanyails> I'll probably be 99% dead afterwards.
<DetroitLolcat> That's really too bad :(
<Rainman_Legends> I avoid ps like the plague
<Quanyails> Trying to mingle the mission statement with its community, though, isn't working out, and it's been frustrating to see for multiple CAPs in a row.
<DetroitLolcat> Any particular reasons you're calling it quits?
<Quanyails> Yes.
<Quanyails> Nothing to do with you guys.
<DetroitLolcat> Hmm, it seems it'd be worth staying around for the mission statement PRC
<DetroitLolcat> but *shrugs*
<DetroitLolcat> Does that mean no more of those awesome art repository threads o_O
<Quanyails> I don't think they're needed now.
<Quanyails> There's posting limits, and the last thread was only six pages, I think.
<Quanyails> I'm sure you'll do fine without me. :)
* pInkmoth has quit (Connection reset by peer)
<DetroitLolcat> Well the posting limits have been called into question as of late
<Quanyails> By whom and why?
<DetroitLolcat> I mean that entire thread hogging PRC
<Quanyails> Ah, that.
<DetroitLolcat> It didn't get a conclusion, but I'm sure it'll get kicked up again during the upcoming stage.
<Quanyails> Again, who are the people opposing it?
<DetroitLolcat> I don't think Birk's a fan of the hard limits
<Quanyails> All right.
<DetroitLolcat> The thread's a bit directionless IMO. PSG posted a tentative new rules OP, but the thread sort of died because it was opened very close to CAP20.
<Birkal> yeah we decided in PR last time to get rid of posting limits
<Birkal> because they artificially stifled discussion
<Birkal> we just delete posts like we always have :D
<Quanyails> Action is good.
<Rainman_Legends> Now can we bring back likes? :D
<DetroitLolcat> noooo
<Birkal> I'd be open for a discussion
<Birkal> I kind of miss 'em to be honest
<Quanyails> I'm also on the boat that says CAP is declining and needs a change in philosophy to get me interested again.
<Quanyails> Well, not just me. :P
<Quanyails> For CAP as a whole to improve.
<Birkal> I've sort of been thinking about that
<Quanyails> I was reminded in the earlier discussion:
* Snobalt (~cgiirc@living.the.dream) has joined #cap
<Birkal> I think it'd be really interesting to embark significantly off the path
<Birkal> or even change up the "process" entirely
<Quanyails> I forget who it was, but an OU player said that competitive players dislike CAP because competitive players, when it comes down to polls, have as much influence as the new guys.
<Quanyails> And these sort of democracies, as idealistic as CAP wants them to be, dissuades CAP from really gaining ground as a competitive project.
<Birkal> definitely a fair statement to make
<Quanyails> So CAP's in that awkward middle between 'fanboy' (in Doug's words) and 'competitive', thus appealing to a small fraction of the community.
<Birkal> to me, the "worst" thing about CAP is that it has no metagame
<Birkal> that's why you can't really get "competitive" about it; there is no consistent metagame to play as an active participant in the project
<Birkal> well, I mean our metagame is OU
<Birkal> but if that's the case, we'd be better suited as a project hosted in the OU forum
<Quanyails> It tries to be.
* sliggoo (Mibbit@synIRC-6742C637.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #cap
<jas61292> I don't even want to imagine dealing with that....
<Quanyails> But the playtest ends up a few months out of date and only caters to people interested in CAP.
<imanalt> Birkal:
<Quanyails> I like the idea of not catering CAPs toward OU, actually.
<imanalt> what if we kept a playtest in some form going from when one project finishes until the next one does
<imanalt> have like weekly live tours
<imanalt> keep a deadish ladder up
<imanalt> have a couple longer term tours
<imanalt> something to try to fix that problem
<jas61292> The issue there to me is that, unless we change what the metagame itself is, no one will be interested
<imanalt> and it would fix the playtest problems
<imanalt> in one go
<Quanyails> I agree with jas.
<imanalt> jas61292 you underrate how much if you link a random ass livetour on smogtours when there are ppl on ppl will join
<imanalt> look at the lower tier live tours
<imanalt> plenty of random ppl who don't play those tiers are joining
<Birkal> I've suggested that before, imanalt
<Birkal> I think that CAP needs to have some sort of "playable official metagame" available at all times
<imanalt> i think the thing that would have to happen if we did it
<jas61292> I just think that, as is, such a tour would end up just being OU. If no one has any reason to be invested in the meta, no one will actually bother to learn the CAP. Unless of course it is stupidly good. Even if it is top tier but not broken, 98% of people won't use it, and it won't really be a good test, imo
<imanalt> is the cap metagame would have to go away
<imanalt> yes jas61292, ou with one more pokemon. If the mon is good enough to use som eppl will throw it on, especially if
<Quanyails> Again, keeping a ladder up isn't inviting on its own.
<imanalt> we can get a couple random ou ppl who are competent to decide to play more than once and fuck around w/ some teambuilding
* Snobalt has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
<Birkal> are you guys familiar with project m?
<Birkal> http://projectmgame.com/en/
<imanalt> yes
<imanalt> what about it
<Quanyails> I've read some bullets about it on TV Tropes, if that counts.
<DetroitLolcat> yeah
<DetroitLolcat> My roommate plays it all the time
<DetroitLolcat> I used to play it with him but I'm more of a Smash 4 guy
<Birkal> I've been playing it for over a year now, and I /love/ what they're doing.  They're taking a game everyone loves and making some really cool enhancements to it -- the competitive community is nuts about it
<jas61292> Played it once. Never liked it
<imanalt> er
<Birkal> and lately I've been thinking -- what's different between them and us?
<imanalt> They're taking a game everyone loves
<imanalt> you realize why they created it
* Snobalt (~cgiirc@living.the.dream) has joined #cap
<DetroitLolcat> You mean taking a game everyone hates and making some really cool enahncements to it
<imanalt> was because everyone hated brawl
<imanalt> right
<Birkal> yes, I am definitely aware
<Birkal> and yah, dcat is right
<imanalt> so what Birkal, you think we should be fucking around w/ mechanics creating something entirely different?
<Birkal> but the point is -- they are more or less building a metagame as opposed to singular characters (like what we are doing)
<imanalt> although my understanding w/ project m was really just
<Birkal> they are masters of their /own/ craft on their terms
<imanalt> "turn brawl into melee 2"
<imanalt> which has value but
<imanalt> is very different from what we're doing
<Birkal> whereas we are sort of in an awkward place where we don't directly have control over our metagame (OU)
<jas61292> Well... I always was of the opinion that brawl was the better game, but.... yeah... I totally see the point you are making.
<nyttyn> project m is in
<nyttyn> a really awkawrd place right now tbh
<nyttyn> they're kinda getting pushed out by both smash 4 and melee.
<Birkal> which is why I think it may be worth shifting our focus away from OU and more towards our own new metagame
<imanalt> jas61292 did you watch them played competitively at all?
<Rainman_Legends> Brawl is a better casual party game
<Rainman_Legends> Melee is a better competitive game
<imanalt> also the problem with basically becoming an om Birkal is the same problem most oms have
<imanalt> if no one running it is competent
<imanalt> then it sucks
<imanalt> we'd need good players to be able to create a good meta
<DetroitLolcat> tbh project M is getting pushed out by Nintendo as well
<jas61292> Some. My opinon comes more from playing than watching, but I do disagree with the prevailing opinion that a faster paced game is better. Which is funny cause that is the exact opposite of my opinion on Pokemon.
<Birkal> which is why I think we have an advantage -- we have a userbase and a (mostly, in perspective) good name for ourselves in terms of how we make pokemon
<DetroitLolcat> with Nintendo starting to sponsor tournaments, tourneys can't really allow Project M.
<Birkal> I think that combined with initial excitement in a change of pace might be pretty attractive to most
<imanalt> jas how is this different from an 1100 random ladder player on ps saying "lando shouldn't have been banned because from my experience blah blah"
<imanalt> oO
<nyttyn> birkal
<nyttyn> this is a pretty dramatic change you're talking about here.
<Birkal> of course it is
<Birkal> and that's why I don't know how I feel about it yet
<imanalt> Birkal i think the thing to look at is oms
<imanalt> do we want to be an om
* Gale has quit (Quit: Laterz)
<Birkal> but I've felt for a long time that the biggest reason we don't have "competitive contributors" is because we don't have a metagame to call our own
<Quanyails> Are we making CAP what the people want?
<jas61292> Hey, I never said better competitive game. I said better game. Games are about fun, and I have a lot more fun laughing at my friend when I smash him after he triped then I do watching people wavedash all over and use what ever other advanced techs they use. To me most of what makes it better is in the characters and stages, not mechanics (though I do like certain mechanics more).
<Birkal> like right now, we couldn't really have a conversation about our metagame
<Birkal> unless it was just OU
<Birkal> which is fine, but we definitely don't talk about OU much... at all...
<imanalt> then why don't any oms have competitive contributors
<Birkal> so we'd have to change something on that front
<imanalt> they get their own community but with a very few exceptions, those communities are full of players who couldnt hack it at other metas
<Birkal> ehh, I think some do (from my experience in OMPL)
<imanalt> as someone who used to be a top om player
<Birkal> but I think OMs suffer from being an isolated community with tons of options
<imanalt> they dont
<imanalt> how will we be different
<imanalt> if we become an om
<Birkal> I dunno.  I just think the core idea of "making our own metagame that is balanced and fun while introducing new characters" is inherently interesting.
<Birkal> but that's just my opinion
<imanalt> it is
<imanalt> but the prblem is there is a lot of cynicism from competent players about it
<Birkal> about...?
<imanalt> which is a self fulfilling prophecy
<imanalt> the userbase being bad and "fanboyish"
<imanalt> the fact that all om communities are bad
<imanalt> etc etc
<Birkal> yeah, but you have to remember that CAP isn't OM
<Birkal> we have 20 projects and seven years of clout
<imanalt> what youre proposing would be
<imanalt> seven years of already trashing our competitive reputation
<jas61292> If people are going to be cynical, they are going to be cynical. I don't think we can really do anything about that. We need to get the people who are not cynical.
<imanalt> remember that i played and worked extraordinarily hard for basically the first om, so i know the types of problems we will run into
<imanalt> the people who aren't cynical about the community being bad includes almsot no good players
<imanalt> ive gone through trying to get competitive people to play something, and judge it on its own merit
* Snobalt has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
<imanalt> itd oesnt actually happen
* Zanadu (~quassel@6BA8D10C:44234547:A96D72F2:IP) has left #cap (parting gift)
<nyttyn> the only real hope you have is to attract new players and attempt to cultivate a community that people will enjoy.
<nyttyn> and then from there the metagame will, assuming people care enought to stick around, naturally evolve.
<imanalt> with the amazing quality of our current community i see that as being easy
<Birkal> I dunno, I think CAP is different.  I think there is something cool about a) the AWESOME flavor contributions we get, b) the ability to talk with lots of people about a metagame, and c) the ability to actually change the metagame through creating a new Pokemon
<nyttyn> imanalt there's no need to be snarky m8
<imanalt> the problme is you need all of a fun community, a good metagame, and an informed community
<nyttyn> you don't nessecarily need a good metagame or a informed community - new games have neither.
<jas61292> You need interest to form those things
<imanalt> nyttyn on smogon you need both
<imanalt> otherwise people will go for other options
<imanalt> those are what generate interest
<DetroitLolcat> you need a good metagame without a doubt
<imanalt> a good metagame isn't enough though
<imanalt> back last gen when i was trying to get people to play bh
<imanalt> the bh metagame was probably the best metagame anyone was playing at the time
<DetroitLolcat> new games don't have good metas, true, but people know they can change a new game's meta through bans or clauses
<imanalt> but no one would play
<DetroitLolcat> no matter what, a new game's meta is going to end up good or at least decent.
<Quanyails> The thing about CAP currently is that it's building off of an older metagame.
<imanalt> bw woudl disagree but we digress dlc
<jas61292> Maybe I am wrong, but I kinda am on the same page as Birkal.
<DetroitLolcat> yeah bw was sort of a cluster
<DetroitLolcat> but it had its moments
<DetroitLolcat> bw was much better than bw2 at least
<DetroitLolcat> BW is the Brawl of competitive Pokemon
<Quanyails> And the change is rather trivial compared to Other Metagames.
<jas61292> We might not be the biggest thing ever, but I do think we are a popular enough project that if we said "X is our meta that we are doing everything for now, go learn it" we would significantly increase interest in that meta
<imanalt> i really hate to harp on this, but im the only one here who has a lot of experience trying to promote and grow an om. Its really really really hard to get good people to do things and join, even when you have decent connections and no matter what you do
<Quanyails> Or Project M, I presume.
<imanalt> Quanyails plenty of oms are relatively minor changes
<imanalt> one just gives mons access to all stab moves they could get etc
<Birkal> imanalt I don't mean this offensively at all, but can you please stop playing the "bigger dick" card?
<imanalt> one just slightly tweaks bst
<Birkal> we all value your input
<Quanyails> That's not so minor to me.
<Birkal> but we're just having a discussion lol
<Quanyails> Eeeeeh?
<Birkal> no need to "pull rank"
<imanalt> zzz
<Quanyails> Birkal?
<Quanyails> I'd call it experience. :/
* bane (~macle@synIRC-791AC4E8.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #cap
* nyttyn has kicked nyttyn from #cap (YOU DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO BIRKAL I'LL PULL RANK ON MYSELF)
* nyttyn (~nyttyn@fire.blasts.cant.melt.conkeldurr.beams) has joined #cap
* BarackObama gives channel operator status to nyttyn
<Birkal> nah it is experience that is appreciated for sure
<imanalt> experience >>> theorying, especially since yall are way over optimistic about smogon in general
<Birkal> like I don't think anyone is disagreeing that is is /really/ hard to get people interesting in something new
<imanalt> its easier to get people interested in something new than something they already assume is bad
<imanalt> no preconceived notions > bad ones
<Birkal> which is what I'm suggesting with us making mons for our own meta
<Birkal> it's something new, as opposed to keeping on the same process we've done for yonks