FRevolution

*** Snowshoe [~cgiirc@DCD9442B.DF1A7578.7E29571D.IP] has joined #FRevolution
*** Topic is: The #FRevolution will not be televised | Why you are probably here: http://pastebin.com/a19pnQSk | Welcome to the channel of dissidents who DO SOMETHING | Talk about how to improve characters, the setting and the mechanics here | Far Recon's Beard Status: Shaved | http://tinyurl.com/fittingpic
*** Topic set by Tehpillowstar [Thu Nov 14 01:52:14 2013]
*** Snowshoe Tehpillowstar Tox|Tab CROM lurkd jedifan Tox
*** Channel created on Wed Nov 13 20:15:08 2013
*** jedifan [~chatzilla@3008FD1.65845607.C44E8BF2.IP] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]]
<Snowshoe> so did you actually want me in here for anything, or...?
<Tehpillowstar> Well I was more just showing you that the room now is a thing
<Tehpillowstar> I feel that forced GM meddling in the FR setting and several GM attitudes (that have been around for a long time) is now both painfully obvious and I feel is hurting the RP.
<Snowshoe> this is still sitting in the topic of #poolpartyooc if you feel like using it http://piratepad.net/JxueU1DIzg
<Tehpillowstar> I still am interested in using it
<Tehpillowstar> However to be frank, a lot of the people who have great ideas are no longer willing to share them as they believe that the current GMs will not suffer dissent or unorthodox ideas
<Tehpillowstar> They don't want to be banned, so they don't say anything.
<Snowshoe> pres is inactive and flowers got banned
<Snowshoe> who on earth is anyone afraid of?
<Tehpillowstar> Roget
<Tehpillowstar> SWL
<Tehpillowstar> Soulless
<Tehpillowstar> Alivi
<Tehpillowstar> I was told point blank by Roget that the GM team does not need my ideas or suggestions.
<Tehpillowstar> I am only continuing to do this because I am a stubborn mofo who doesn't back down easy.
*** mode/#FRevolution [+qo Tehpillowstar Tehpillowstar] by ChanServ
<Snowshoe> so, I'd just like to highlight that there's a pretty meaningful gap between "People who are likely to ban you for giggles" and "People you've disagreed with"
<Tehpillowstar> But I am concerned that Roget's proposed "lightening up the tone", which in honesty only served the GMs, forcibly made the RP more "Denser and Wackier" rather than balancing the tone.
<Tehpillowstar> This channel's purpose is to not only highlight problems but to come up with solutions.
<Tehpillowstar> And give said solutions a bigger voice by having a pack of people agree with them instead of one lone loser.
<Tehpillowstar> But while you are (semi) here
<Tehpillowstar> I may note that the observed GM unwillingness to implement change or ideas and the push for a more wackier tone is hurting FR.
<Tehpillowstar> It's hurting FR because it's making FR uncompetitive compared to the AA and AD reboots
<Tehpillowstar> We lose talented players to those RPs as they realize that they don't want to deal with Roget and the other GMs, or play in such a shallow setting where not even a moment of thought was given
<Tehpillowstar> Far Recon's greatest long term potential lies in the fact that is a a Foundation RP that takes place in a Foundation that is at the height of its power, with players playing professionals who know what they are doing, and fight against the impossible, and succeed
<Tehpillowstar> ALONG
<Tehpillowstar> With having a baseline static and consistent setting, coinciding with a setting with literally infinite possibilities only limited by the imagination of the GM.
<Tehpillowstar> But there is no consistency or solid internal logic (or if there is one, it hasn't been identified). The Foundation really only exists as a label
<Tehpillowstar> I understand the difficulty of making consistent logic...but every bit of thought you put into a setting like this
<Tehpillowstar> If done right, can add depth into it
<Tehpillowstar> AA isn't realistic. Fuck it, there are like, cat people with magic powers.
<Tehpillowstar> AA has consistent, internal logic that it sticks to.
<Tehpillowstar> FR uses the excuse of the Pool to cover up the lack of internal logic, even in things that aren't even involved with the Pool.
<Tehpillowstar> And...the fear of losing GMs?
<Tehpillowstar> Why not hire more GMs? There's plenty of talent out there in the userbase, experienced users who have GM'd before in other RPs
<Snowshoe> I'm going to respond to your points individually, and I'd appreciate if I could do that without being interrupted.
<Snowshoe> Starting at the top of the list: There is no nice way to tell you why roget said that. I can go into greater detail if you really, really want me to, but to be as brief as possible, getting told twice a week that we're fucking up everything and the RP will die because of our sins gets old very, very quickly.
<Snowshoe> On lightening the tone: Literally every GM except for alivi was at the point of quitting because we were tired of wangsty, soap opera drama IC. None of us were having fun doing runs because trying to do anything fun or out of the way was met by characters fretting constantly about the repercussions.
<Snowshoe> On competing with AA or AD: I couldn't care less about either of them. I'm sure they're fun, but I don't care about competing with them. I care more about having fun roleplaying and having fun GMing, and making sure that whoever's RPing with me or on one of my runs has fun. I care more about having fun than I do about anal realism.
<Snowshoe> On internal consistency: We have three people who regularly do things IC. There is very little communication about these things besides "I'm going to do something now, I think it'll be fun." We don't spend half an hour discussing with each other why an incident wouldn't make sense, people just do things because they think it'll be fun. It works, it keeps the IC from devolving into soap opera drama.
<Snowshoe> On hiring more GMs: Flower and pres got promoted because wilt was tired of the RP and wanted out. We do not want a repeat of that. We just promoted lurkd and woggle. Outside of them, there isn't anyone we trust to both moderate the OOC and to do good incidents and runs IC. This is why roget just stuck up a page on guest GMing.
*** Gara [Ding.dong@the.witch.is.dead] has joined #FRevolution
<Snowshoe> I will listen to you talk about potential system changes all day long. That's why I started poolpartyooc. I will not listen to you bitch about members of the team ignoring you when you constantly nag us about how things are going to hell.
<Gara> Context, logs, exposition, please.
<Snowshoe> If you have me in here to talk changes, thanks for inviting me. If you have me in here to show me how edgy you are for linking the GM channel and talking about us banning you three times in your topic, I'll be going.
<Snowshoe> That's all I've got.
<Snowshoe> http://pastebin.com/bDFifgP0
<Gara> Danke.
<Tehpillowstar> I was more joking.
<Tehpillowstar> But I hear ya.
<Gara> So, uh. Snow, I can't counterpoint all of that, but I can with some of it.
<Snowshoe> Feel free.
<Gara> "None of us were having fun doing runs because trying to do anything fun or out of the way was met by characters fretting constantly about the repercussions." Oh well? Characters will act in character. Get over it. If someone is going to be disturbed at something extremely off the cuff, that is /their/ perogative.
<Gara> " getting told twice a week that we're fucking up everything and the RP will die because of our sins gets old very, very quickly." But that's what we see happening, as players. We look at some of the new shifts, and we see it, by and large, as you fucking up. You've already lost players for it.
<Gara> "We don't spend half an hour discussing with each other why an incident wouldn't make sense, people just do things because they think it'll be fun. It works, it keeps the IC from devolving into soap opera drama." It also blocks and and all attempts at soft RP, very consistantly, and very annoyingly. We /like/ and we have /fun/ with what you call your soap opera drama. I don't even see where you are coming from there.
<Gara> "On hiring more GMs: Flower and pres got promoted because wilt was tired of the RP and wanted out. We do not want a repeat of that. We just promoted lurkd and woggle. Outside of them, there isn't anyone we trust to both moderate the OOC and to do good incidents and runs IC." I can somewhat get on board with this, but I do feel like the Contributer position carries /far/ too much weight. I don't see a line between GM and Contributer.
<Gara> " I will not listen to you bitch about members of the team ignoring you when you constantly nag us about how things are going to hell." See point 2. "If you have me in here to show me how edgy you are for linking the GM channel and talking about us banning you three times in your topic, I'll be going.
<Gara> <Snowshoe> That's all I've got.If you have me in here to show me how edgy you are for linking the GM channel and talking about us banning you three times in your topic, I'll be going." Come on, really? You take those elements out of a joking paste that mentions liking crayons and leaving because you are being called away for dinner? Really?
<Gara> That's all I've got.
<Tehpillowstar> I have to go. See ya.
*** Tehpillowstar [Mibbit@3E9224D8.2F616764.610698A5.IP] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
<Snowshoe> >Acting in character
<Snowshoe> We're not asking anyone to suddenly act OOC all the time. We want the general tone of the RP to be lighter. If that means your characters suddenly don't spend half an hour stacking up on a door before opening it, or that spontaneously getting a lightsaber is totally a thing command will let you do, that doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
<Snowshoe> >We see it, by and large, as you fucking up
<Gara> That's not what the context was.
<Snowshoe> The playerbase is not a hivemind. This room doesn't represent a majority, it represents an extremely vocal minority. I'm not downplaying any of you, but that /is/ true. For as many people as there are who hate the changes or who are willing to quit over them, there are just as many people who're indifferent or who are in favor.
<Snowshoe> >We like and have fun with what you call soap opera drama
<Snowshoe> Referring again to my previous point. This /is/ a minority. I can pretty confidently say that most players prefer incidents to hours at a time of soft RP. If your soft RP is being interrupted by incidents, we have the overflow room, redpool, and poolparty all linked in the topic.
<Snowshoe> >The topic
<Snowshoe> I don't have context. I'm going to take everything I see seriously. Sarcasm doesn't translate.
<Snowshoe> That's all.
<Gara> 1: That's blown way out of context, because that's not what I was replying to. 2: I'm not honestly sure that's the case, by the numbers. 3: The incidents are forced on us. We aren't asked, we're told to roll. 4: That's pretty ridiculous.
<Snowshoe> 1: Then please elaborate, I was responding to you saying that people will act IC. 2: I've surveyed the playerbase. You were one of the people I PMd. We've done more surveys since then. This is a minority. 3: I'll change the topic in the overflow room and ask people not to do incidents in there. 4: I got told soulless seems like someone who would ban people for coming to him with ideas. The bar for ridiculous got raised several notches.
<Gara> 1: In the context of what you said, you mentioned the repurcussions of certain actions. Why, yes, the characters are going to be mildly upset and preturbed that a unicorn made of ice is prancing around and making all the girls princesses. 2: Then you are going to continue to go against what a very vocal section of players wants to have done. You might've noticed that we only got upset when people went and fucked around with things. 3: You honestly
<Gara> expect people to default into an overflow room to have discussions? That's not very organic, and not really how RP flows in, well, any game. 4: Regardless, I'm still fairly certain you can read, given we are having this conversation, so I'm sure you can tell when a reference to being banned is right next to being called away fro dinner and liking crayons, you can do things like disregard it, or overlook it, and not be a dick to a player.
<Snowshoe> 1: It's a run. There will be others. I wasn't referring to a specific run, and to be totally honest I haven't read and didn't watch whichever run you're talking about. We, as a team, want characters to be able to deal with shit like that without blowing a gasket. We feel like your characters having fun will make runs more fun. We might be wrong, but we hated the way things were, so any change is better than no change there.
<Gara> 1: No. It's not. It was a random incident from absolutely nowhere. Beyond that, I honestly don't care what the team want our characters to be able to deal with. Characters having fun does not mean we are. We having fun does not mean our characters are. They aren't mutually exclusive, or inclusive. They are completely and totally independant. What you like as a GM, we hate as players. Which is more important?
<Snowshoe> We made it very clear when we said we were going to shift the tone that it was both based solely on what we'd heard from other members of the GM team and that it was non-negotiable, because it was the /entire/ GM team. I could cite older RPs that died because they got weighed down by this kind of IC drama, but I haven't got logs, so I'll say that it's happened and leave it at that.
<Gara> "What you like as a GM, we hate as players. Which is more important?"
<Snowshoe> The situation that we're in isn't that black and white. While the GM team is unanimously in favor of the tone shift, the player base isn't unanimous either way, and we don't even have a clear majority either way. "You as players" constitutes about five or six people, as far as I can tell, which is not "The players".
<Gara> I don't care what is unanimous in the GM team. I really don't. And, how many active players are you counting?
<Gara> It's not a great number more then 6.
<Snowshoe> >I don't care what is unanimous in the GM team
<Snowshoe> willful ignorance does not make you right.
<Gara> Ignorance of /what/
<Gara> Those two statements don't line up.
<Snowshoe> Like it or not, the GM team constitutes at least a portion of the playerbase. While we aren't all active, alivi is arguably one of the most active players IC and unarguably the most active member of the team. You cannot discount the opinion of seven people who are where they are because they've been in the RP longer than anyone else, and have shown they know how to make the game fun to play.
<Gara> Yeah. You can. It's like senators voting for themselves. It's nice, but it doesn't really mean much. No shit you support your decisions.
<Gara> I'm going to go to sleep in a sec.
<Gara> Annnything else?
<Snowshoe> The tone shift is going to be happening, regardless of how much you argue. What direction it goes in is partially up to the playerbase. We told you that a month ago, and invited commentary. There was very little, besides "Tentatively in favor, with some concerns".
<Gara> And those concerns ended up being extremely valid. Goodnight.
*** Gara [Ding.dong@the.witch.is.dead] has quit [Quit: Leaving]