Thomas Drake on Flashpoints (11/30/2017)

Supplemental document for: "Theory that Roger Stone's back channel to Wikileaks was Randy Credico", link: https://wakelet.com/wake/2d352ae9-febe-44a1-a7bb-51674a2e4bf5

Thomas Drake on "Flashpoints". Broadcast date: November 30, 2017. Excerpt runs from 0:54 to 32:58.

File link: http://www.mediafire.com/file/8fngpgt02wzdnof/Flashpoints%20%u2013%20November%2030%2C%202017%20-%20Thomas%20Drake%20on%20Credico.mp3

DENNIS BERNSTEIN
This is definitely a story we are quite concerned [sic], we're very close to. Let me tell you who's joining us today. We're joined by Thomas Drake. Drake is a former senior executive of the National Security Agency, where he blew the whistle on massive, multi-billion dollar fraud, waste, and the widespread violations of the rights of citizens through secret, mass surveillance programs after 9/11. As retaliation and reprisal, the Obama administration indicted Drake in two ten [sic - 2010], as the first whistleblower since Daniel Ellsberg charged with espionage. And Drake faced thirty five years in prison, turning him into an enemy of the state for his oath to defend the constitution. In 2011, the government's case against him collapsed, and he went free in a plea deal. He is the recipient of the 2011 Ridenhour Truth-Telling Prize, Thomas Drake, it's good to have you back with us, and uh, I want to talk to you about Russia-gate, I want to get your thoughts on that, based on your knowledge of the way information moves. But just let me- because we're- we're directly involved, we played a small part in working with Randy on this series. He strongly believes, Randy Credico believes that he's under attack because of the way he worked with, and tried to get the word out on who Julian Assange is, and his persecution. Now- Randy Credico, he's a lifelong truth teller, first as a comedian, powerful satirist. Then a political activist, working with the William Kunstler Fund. Fierce and effective, and successful opponent of stop and frisk. Then, a political candidate, runs for mayor and governor. Raising key issues, making the mainstream politicians deal with issues they don't want to deal with. Then, here comes Randy Credico, and he starts a radio show, and as a part of that show, he does this fourteen part series, on Assange. And, all of a sudden, he- and he mee- he goes finally, just recently, he goes and sees Assange, meets with him a couple of times, and now, Randy Credico is subpoenaed before Congress, he is the middle man, he's some kind of middle man, and, you know, he's leading- he's a key player in the Russians stealing the election from Hillary Clinton, and giving it to Trump. Now, can c- from an informational point of view, this is just to state that we are part of it. What do you think is going on here, informationally? How would you look at this Russia-gate based on what you already know about what has transpired in terms of information movement?

THOMAS DRAKE
Well...information, yeah, glad to have you- [sic] I'm glad to be on your show. Information is the coin of the realm. It's the currency of power. And, you know, anybody that questions authority, or is perceived as mocking authority, or hanging out with those that state power consider to be an enemy, and they've effectively declared Julian of Wikileaks to be a non-state actor, and a direct threat to the mass security of the United States, well, you know, that means you're hanging out with the wrong people, and, you know, maybe, we need to take a swipe or two at you. But this latest development is quite troubling, I must say, I mean this is sortof the continuing sortof evolution of the normalization of what's been happening, going all the way back to post-9/11. But to have a political satirist, to have someone who has worked in the media, someone who has taken up a cause, and I'm- I'm coining his- the documentary done on him a few years ago, you know, "60 Plus Spins Around The Sun" [sic], he's- he reminds me of sortof modern day, you know, twenty first century Diogenes. I mean, he's in- he's in the court, he's in the marketplace, he's confronting authority, and they're questioning their worthiness, and when they're corrupt, calling them out on it, and yeah. They've- you know, they've- you've got the House Permanent Select Committee [sic - the House Intelligence Committee], now issuing a subpoena to depose him, in a couple of weeks. It's a- it's a- It's quite a development. And, I think, this is...I think there's some who think somehow he knows something, or/and it also sends a message, I....I mean, the critical thing for me is, Randy has lived the First Amendment, free speech, one's self-expression, I consider him- he's a political artist as well, you know, this is- this is really chilling. It's really the continuing attacks on who we are, and our ability to freely express and associate. It's a double whammy for Randy, in terms of the First Amendment, self-expression, you know, the freedom to- of speech, is so fundamental to the First Amendment, but also the right, you know, to bring grievances. You've got the ability to bring redressive grievances against the government, but the double whammy is that he's also, as a media figure, hanging out with the wrong media figure [presumably a reference to Assange and not Stone], in the eyes of the United States government.

BERNSTEIN
Alright, again you're listening to "Flashpoints" on Pacifica radio, that's the voice of Thomas Drake, former senior executive at the National Security Agency. I- I- I- and a whistleblower. And I want to step back for a moment, if we could, Thomas Drake, I'd like you to say a little bit more about what your work was, and what you tried to do, in terms of your expose. Just set that up, and then I'd really would like you to sortof consider the bizarre nature and the...craziness, if you will - if you see it that way - of trying to take somebody like Randy Credico, and put him at the center of a- the- a controversy in which you got two committees and a federal prosecutor investigating Russia's overthrowing- undermining a U.S. election. And here is Randy Credico. So talk about your own experiences, and then...think about this out loud for us.

DRAKE
[pause] Well, my own experience is, you know, are quite telling in terms of how far would the government go to destroy one's life. I- I can certainly identify with Randy, in a number of areas, the attempt by the government to silence me, was extraordinary. I mean, they did not like someone speaking truth to or about power. And so, they had a number of quivers in their- a number of arrows in their quiver, they had a number of quivers on stand by with even more arrows, and they threw all they had at me, all because I committed the truth. I spoke up about abuse of power, I spoke up about the mass surveillance regime, I spoke up, and here's- here's the crime. The crime is that I openly did make a fatal choice to go to the media. And by going to the media, that was my sin. I wasn't supposed to go to the media, and say anything about power, and abuse of power, even though I was doing so in the public interest. And even though I was doing so under- under the protection of the First Amendment. Both within and without. Didn't matter. Didn't matter at all, and the kicker is, I was the source, truth teller, and a whistleblower, and so the government was obviously not just coming after me, but they're also sending a really chilling message to the media. You know, if you print this, you're also under their gun. If you publish anything based on your conversations or any information that's provided to you by the whistleblower, truth-teller - yeah, we don't like that.

BERNSTEIN
What would be, now- getting to the- uuuuh like the moving of information. The emails. The sortof, at the core of this...story. Um, you've heard the charges over and again, that this was a Russian hack...what are your thoughts now, on this subject? Was it a hack, was it a leak from the Democratic headquarters? I mean, what was the source? Really. Let's trace it back down as best as we can.

DRAKE
Well, I- you know, this is what's interesting, in this hyper-inflated politicized environment, it's extremely difficult to wade through the massive amount of disinfo on all sides. It's not just both sides, it's all sides. Nation-states routinely, especially in the modern era, especially in the digital age, with the technology in hand, and to other proxies, the United States certainly does it, as well as other countries, including Russia. It's not unusual for countries to, you know, be quote unquote "see how far they can go", or...engaging in political activities, in terms of- of their own intelligence services, or their cut-outs. The problem here is- is what's the ground truth. That's- that's the real challenge here, is trying to figure out who the players are, whose ox is being gored, who is the ox, and who's doing the goring. You've- you've got a president, who from all accounts, was duly elected, contrary to a lot of others who didn't want him, both candidates had extraordinary high negatives. I think Trump himself is actually quite shocked that he won, I don't think he was actually expecting to win. But he did, he's now the president of the United States, couldn't- you probably couldn't write a better Hollywood script. In terms of "Made in America". And now you have Mueller investigation [sic]. An extraordinary investigation, you know, as Special Counsel, you've got the permanent- and this is where the subpoena on Randy, signed by Devin Nunes, I actually thought he was supposed to recuse himself from this- these- this House investigation, at least, it looks like his signature on the subpoena. Doing their own, conducting their own investigation. And, you know, where are all the roads going to lead? There are obviously those who want it to be a- Russia is behind it all, there's others who obviously don't want it to be Russia. That it was- is it one or the other, I think in some ways there's a false dichotomy. And, you know, even in my own network [Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity] there's those that I've taken issue with, in terms of, proof that's been offered up [reference to VIPS memo which argued that the DNC and Podesta emails were the result of inside leaks, and which Drake dissented from; more information can be found in this Nation piece that was published after the Nation's piece built around the VIPS memo received scathing criticism over its central claim - "A Leak or a Hack? A Forum on the VIPS Memo" link: https://www.thenation.com/article/a-leak-or-a-hack-a-forum-on-the-vips-memo/ ], in terms of it, it absolutely was an insider job...maybe it was both. Um...look, the U.S. intelligence community hasn't done itself any favors, the IC assessment, which is really a glorified opinion, it provides no proof either. In terms of allegations that the Russians _hacked_ the election. We do have the evidence that was disclosed by Reality Winner, which would indicate that, yeah, assuming that that is, allegedly from Reality Winner, through The Intercept, from all accounts, that maybe there was some interference, maybe they were attempting to intrude. But the hyper conflation, the hyper politicization surrounding all this is making it extraordinarily difficult. And the advantage that the intelligence has [sic - presumably, intelligence community], both- I would say, even over- [sic, presumably a reference to intelligence communities of both Russia and U.S.] they can behind hide what they're doing, they don't actually have to tell the truth, they can actually shade it. They can influence and shape it. And- it has- this is where- this is where information is currency can be used as a- you can politicize information, and use it as a weapon. You know, against your opponents. Or just score points. But we are in a hyper partisan environment, right now, about all of this. And Randy...I mean, here, [laughs] here he gets, finding himself caught up in these investigations, by virtue of having been a media figure, he still is a media figure, I mean, it's just extraordinary that, you know, he had his own show, then got _fired_, and then by virtue of association and hanging out, quote unquote "hanging out" with Julian, apparently, that's a mark against him. I certainly know what it feels, because I was accused of the same thing. You know, I was hanging out with all the wrong people. I wasn't, I was talking out of turn, you're not supposed to talk about what goes on, you know, inside NSA, even with our own- ironically enough, even with the oversight committee. We're just in this extraordinary period, which, I think, some, are even hoping, you know- they want Trump to disappear. They want Trump to resign. Or [inaudible] force him out, or even impeach him. You know, it's...part of it is just pure political theater. I mean, this is you every night, every day you wake up, "Hey! What's the latest tweet the president sent out?" I mean, people are hanging on his tweets now? Well, I guess it's now policy because the president says so. Because he tweeted it out, makes it so.

BERNSTEIN
And it's interesting, of course, because here- this president has a lot that really could seriously be investigated, uuuuuuh and people- reporters could do the hard work uh uh in terms of financial...and investigations and all that stuff, and then it would be- I would like to know about his history. But this- What's going on here, as Randy says, he feels McCarthy- Joe McCarthy's back, all over again. And now it's...his name is Schiff. And he's back in Congress. I- I- I would like to ask you, Thomas Drake, because of your background, and your revelations around the incredible international surveillance state...in which all of us are vulnerable, what role do you think Julian Assange has played in terms of unmasking this? And do you think it's significant, as Randy does?

DRAKE
Yes! I mean, you're talking about the fearlessness of Julian and Wikileaks, publishing information about those in power, obviously he has to rely, depend, on information, that's given to him. And then making it available for all to see. Including those in power. And yeah, ever since 2010, in particular, the "Collateral Murder" video, largely attributed to Chelsea Manning, you know, you have major media across the world, who more often than not, are more than willing to pick up on any of the newer revelations that come out from Wikileaks, and then publish it themselves. In some cases, going back, some of this has been done actually in partnership, or in concert, with other media outlets. But this is, you know the role of- information wants to be free. I've said that myself, in different ways, in different forums. It's very difficult to keep secrets, anymore. And obviously, there are those who wish to keep secrets. I mean, look, look at Trump himself. Right? Trump, obviously, does not want his business interests fully investigated. And, you know, some would argue that what he did before he became president is off-limits. Or is it? I mean, why weren't people investigating this before? [sic - what an arrogant and stupid statement by Drake] He was extraordinarily protective of his businesses, and yet there are major questions in terms of funding, there's major questions, I mean, he's essentially, you know, lived off- he's said it himself, go back and actually listen to how he conducted his businesses, it was essentially playing the game of debt laden finance. And other- and other versions of debt financing schemes. So, here we are as president [sic]. You know, president Trump [laughs] there's no...he apparently has wanted to be president for a while, notions- motions about that, twenty plus years ago, right? But he's president, it seems like he's brought out, sortof, the worst of all sides, in terms of what it means. And I think he's...in some ways, I- he gets up in the morning, and say, [sic] "Who can I rankle today?" Who's playing the fool here? I mean, I've called him in the past, this is political theater, these- he's a carnival barker, and it's all under the big tent of his own making, right? And he kept- he kept- he gets to play the fool on his own stage, right? It's like he's- he is his own- his own court jester, as president. But- you know, he's president. And so this is not a Hollywood show. This is, you know, not some version of "West Wing", right? This is for real. And there are real issues, real things at stake. And, if it all becomes political theater, then, you know, what- where are we going, you know, in terms of- of who we are, as a people, but even as a body politic. [BERNSTEIN: Right-] But here you've got people caught up, I mean, Randy is caught up, I know what it means to get caught up in these [inaudible]-

BERNSTEIN
I mean, it's real, because they want his- all his documents. They want all his papers. They want-

DRAKE
Of course! They want evidence! It doesn't matter that they want evidence. They just want it, right? I mean, this is- this is sortof, they want- They came into my house, they took everything that was of any- any _possible_ value. It didn't matter what- what ultimately was true or not, it's just the fact that they could. And then use that, frame that. I mean...it- Randy has rights. Right? You know, you can be subpoenaed, right? Make an appearance, he's got lawyers, I'm sure the lawyers are giving him the best possible advice under the circumstances. You know, this is not a court of law, but it is a second branch of government. And- and...you know, he can, as others have, you know, you do have the right to invoke the Fifth Amendment. It is a right under the Constitution. You know, some people choose, you know, to go and say whatever's on their mind. But- I- this environment, the truth doesn't really matter. That's part of the problem, here. It's the concern: what is the truth? So- but then, the irony is, is why Randy has the truth on his side. So, you know, I think he'll have his day in court, but he's going to have his day, assuming he still shows up, he's going to have his day for a deposition, with the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

BERNSTEIN
Let me ask you this, now. There are- It looks like, well the- The folks coming out of Congress, the sortof Russia-gaters...let's call them the Russia-gaters, trying to corner _Randy_. Randy has a way of speaking truth to power, he has done this his whole life, who knows what he'll do, but...he's certainly not going to be uh idle, [laughs] whatever he does. And...we'll see that, but what about- what do you think _our_ role is, I mean, the people's role, the...what do you think the corporate press, the press should be saying, about- instead of calling for the indictment of- becoming prosecutors for the state...what- what would be the role of the press, in the context of, resisting this, and finally saying no to this kind of witch hunt? This kind of witch hunting congress?

DRAKE
Yeah, well, ideally yes, if you want, but I- [laughs] I'm not- I'm not going to mince words, in terms of, you know, the press's huge- they amplify just about anything that they focus on, right? By virtue- And especially in today's- You're talking about 24-7 in your face social media. And many of these things break on social media, or get amplified on social media, beyond just what you might see. Most of the mainstream, and the mainstream media is publishing directly to their web pages. And even, even interviews are being direc- I mean, this has been this way for a while. It's just that it's even more persistent. So, the cacophony of all that noise, you know, you have to get behind it, see it's not just what you see, but you have to ask why, you've gotta get behind it, and ask why. What is the- the intentions here, what's driving this? I believe there are still enough, you know, independent- but it's harder to find them, independent journalists and reporters who are, in fact, doing sortof the longer term [sic]. They're looking further and deeper, in terms of sorta the current here, not just what you see, the waves on top, but the currents. And what are the long- what's the intermediate and longer term risks, but also the intermediate and longer term realities, that are emerging, but they're clearly those [sic], who are- are hellbent...to make life difficult as possible for the current president, and there are those, obviously, who are going to defend him to the hilt. For all the political reasons that many have already cited, I mean, just look- [laughs] look at a certain senator from South Carolina - right? - who, talking about Trump being a clown, and now he's defending Trump, right? Because, you know, it's- he's the head of the Republican party, and you got a Republican majority. [pause] I just- I think the risk, all devolves into just...us being spectators, and everything just plays out on- on the stage. And everybody is waiting for the next shoe to drop, and it seems like there's more than a few pairs of shoes still ready to drop. On the stage. And it's like, well, okay, when will that prop come out, or when will that shoe drop? And where's it going to drop from? Is it going to come from under, or is it going to come from the rafters? This- you know, it's an extraordinary set of events, that uh that have led to this, I- I would- I was not surprised at all that Trump won. I had- I had actually told people privately, and even in some of my own appearances, look, people are- were- were significant- a significant percentage of the American electorate were looking for something different. And I think some people said, "This is different." And other people had a legitimate beefs and gripes with the two party system, and although he was the candidate for the Republican Party, when they got themselves, you know, in the voting booth, say, "Hey, I'm gonna pull the lever for him. What the heck. Why not." [sic - the speech itself is rambling and incoherent, it's not just the transcript]

BERNSTEIN
Well, if you consider the content of those emails? Those emails? Certainly, the Clinton folk got rid of Bernie Sanders, so we- we'll never know that history.

DRAKE
Well, no, I think- I- I- since you bring up Bernie, I always thought it would have always been a very interesting...race, to have Bernie versus Trump. The thing was, Bernie in his own way, and I spent most of my youth growing up in Vermont, so, you know, Bernie was effectively, you know, one of my senators from Vermont...and so, he, you know, he was certainly appealing, especially, to younger audiences, up through mid-thirties, he was certainly appealing to them on the issues. He was raising legitimate issues, even as a Democratic, you know, Socialist, Independent, but, you know, essentially caucusing with the Democrats. He- I think he would have been a worthy- but, of course, if you're talking about the establishment, the establishment, I was- much more- much more desirous of Clinton, would become president. And not just because she would become the first woman president, because they were for her as the Democratic candidate. And yet, we have Trump in office. So-

BERNSTEIN
And- and- wouldn't you say that in Clinton they had a known quantity, who supported that national security state, those-

DRAKE
Well, you're bringing up an issue- I think this is part of the lie. The deeper lie. There's no question, in my mind, is that the national security establishment, was far more comfortable with having Clinton as president. Certain- much more known entity, quantity, and would've- much- the classic hawk, Democratic hawk in that regard, and they would've been very comfortable having her as president of the United States. And I find it extraordinary that those of current, and former, coming out of the woodwork, including someone central to my own case, you know, General Michael V. Hayden, going apoplectic because, you know, of some- a tweet that- a classic Trump tweet taking on, you know, certain parts of the mainstream media. And- and- and- just, kindof, sticking it to them, right? Just to see what the reaction is. And yet, Michael V. Hayden, this is a few days ago, got over a hundred thousand likes just on his own response. Like, in all my forty years, right? It's like, well, geez, he's, you know, was central to what we did in the deepest of secrecy, at the highest levels of government after 9/11, and going off the rails of a constitutional form of government. And engaging in, you know, in widespread mass surveillance regimes, right? And he claims it was all, it was all legal, and it was raw executive authority that was- was- was- was the basis for, the legal basis. "Raw executive authority"? Wow, that's a different form of government- not the form of government I took an oath four times for to defend. And yet you now have this really interesting dynamic where the national security establishment is effectively undermining the duly elected president of the United States. Now, I recognize Trump is- is vulnerable. I recognize that there are- you know, he seems to have a very difficult time picking, you know, good people, that can actually work in the best interests of the country. I mean, just the litany of those who have certainly been brought forward, that we know about, right? But these types of investigations - alright? - if history's any guide, often become highly politicized. It's very difficult to keep them from going in a different direction. And...[BERNSTEIN: Well...] I think it's important, that those independent media, independent reporters and journalists are continuing to probe the sortof the deeper issues to find out what the real truth is here. I worry about- in this case, that what really is happening, is being sacrificed, sortof on the altar of entertainment. And just the stage of political theater.

BERNSTEIN
Well, as I have said before, I really do believe Randy is one of those, as you, one of those canaries in the coal mine of corporate disinformation. I think that, you know, we have to add to the military industrial complex, the military industrial media complex. Because they have become a part of this...messaging system, and it's really hard, but there is a lot of power in the alternative media, and we see a lot of amazing reporting, but um here we are! You know, we're facing this kind of, what Randy considers a McCarthyite operation. And we're gonna need some brave people to stand up and say no. And stand sortof in locked arms with folks like...Randy Credico. And-

DRAKE
-know! Because there's a much bigger issue. Randy is...what's happening to him right now is symptomatic of this larger trend...is that if you speak truth to power, if you dare go in, to the commons, and hold up a mirror, you know, power generally doesn't like it. They just don't. And the silencing treatment, the censoring, the getting fired - right? - that just, it really speaks volumes, right? Is Randy that much of a threat, simply because he's questioning authority? I mean, that's- if that's what's actually happened in our own country, we're afraid of the tru- we're actually afraid of the press, we're afraid of actually having the- the uncomfortable conversations, the inconvenient conversations, or dealing with the inconvenient truths ourselves? I mean, it's- power is- power, I have to say, power does tend to corrupt. I was interviewed earlier today, and Lord Palmer's probably right. I mean, just look at the major- the major figures across the landscape, you name it. Political media - alright? - and all of the- the- the- all of the allegations and- and I believe them, right? In terms of sexual assaults, and- and- and abuse of others, simply because you can get away with it, I mean, many of these people make tremendous amounts of money...in what some are calling the Weinstein effect, it's certainly taking hold, but that in itself is- is- as important as that is, in getting it out on the table - right? - in terms of, sorta, the undergirding of our own patriarchal society, on where all that comes from. I mean, look, women didn't even get the right to vote, it's about time, you know, we actually have to liberate them from the men now.

BERNSTEIN
Yes, well, we're actually- we're right up against the clock here. I want to thank you, Thomas Drake, former senior executive at the National Security Agency. A very courageous whistleblower, who had some very tough times, but did tell the truth. Did speak truth to power, and we thank you, for the good information and for your kind words today.

DRAKE
Well, thank you! I- I'm with Randy, and it's- "We the people-" And we just know- keep holding up the mirror.

BERNSTEIN
That's- that's-

DRAKE
That's what we're all about. Right? And it's all about what future do we want to keep.

BERNSTEIN
Indeed, and certainly Randy stands for that kind of- of life. He is an example. His life is an example of that. We thank you for joining us again, Thomas Drake. Be careful.

DRAKE
Talk is action, it's actually being who we are, for each other, and taking care of each other as well.

BERNSTEIN
Indeed. Thank you. Appreciate it.

DRAKE
You're welcome.