[20:13:22] Zalleus: Jojo, you got a minute to talk about something important?
[20:16:02] JoJo: errr
[20:16:04] JoJo: yeah, sure
[20:16:06] JoJo: what's up?
[20:16:12] JoJo: also, just before you start
[20:16:16] JoJo: that is really ominous sounding
[20:16:26] JoJo: but sure, go on
[20:16:26] Zalleus: It's just
[20:16:31] Zalleus: I think I misspoke earlier
[20:16:43] Zalleus: When you asked me if I had any criticisms against you
[20:17:33] Zalleus: I know it's a really dick move of me to take back what I said from before, but I wasn't clear on a couple things
[20:18:16] Zalleus: 2. whether you did have any feedback for me with regards to the country and/or my leadership
[20:18:44] Zalleus: I think I was a bit too fixated on Orange Star when I answered this question, and left out a couple opinions on something else
[20:19:54] Zalleus: I know it's a really sharp, rusty nail that no one wants to dig out, but it's been brought to my attention that you asked Mich to be an intermediary between you and Sam.
[20:20:15] JoJo: before you go any further
[20:20:19] JoJo: let me read
[20:20:22] JoJo: sorry
[20:20:32] JoJo: i... didn't expect you to do something like this, i'll be honest.
[20:20:43] JoJo: i'm really wondering what's brought this up :x
[20:21:15] Zalleus: Like I said, some things have been brought to my attention, and my earlier answer was a bit more glowing than I think I should've made it.
[20:21:25] Zalleus: Is it true you asked Mich to do that?
[20:22:03] JoJo: no
[20:22:05] JoJo: it isn't.
[20:22:13] Zalleus: It's not?
[20:22:20] JoJo: whoever told you that i asked mich to be an intermediary is not telling the truth.
[20:22:42] JoJo: mich volunteered to be an intermediary, to allow myself and sammieo to be able to speak to each other without misconstruing what each other was saying.
[20:22:47] Zalleus: I see
[20:22:54] Zalleus: No one told me you asked, that was an assumption I made
[20:23:06] JoJo: i accepted mich's suggestion when communication between myself and sammieo went downhill
[20:23:12] Zalleus: I see.
[20:23:14] Zalleus: Sorry about that
[20:23:14] JoJo: if that is what you need to know?
[20:23:36] Zalleus: That was one thing.
[20:24:16] JoJo: before you go any further
[20:24:23] JoJo: i just want to say something, if you don't mind
[20:24:26] Zalleus: Sure
[20:27:09] JoJo: Like I said, some things have been brought to my attention, and my earlier answer was a bit more glowing than I think I should've made it.when i asked you for feedback on the 8th june, i asked you for feedback based on your own experience and opinions. don't mind me, but... this sounds like you're now changing your opinion based on something that isn't relevant to your own experience with me.
[20:27:26] Zalleus: Exactly
[20:27:32] JoJo: so...
[20:27:36] Zalleus: I personally have had good experiences with you
[20:27:36] JoJo: if you don't mind me saying
[20:27:51] JoJo: is it truly fair of you to take back your feedback based on your experiences?
[20:27:53] JoJo: i know where this is going
[20:28:10] JoJo: and can i just say i've had to now block sammieo so that i am not talked at/to without anybody else present?
[20:29:32] Zalleus: Like I said, it is kind of a dick move, but I think my glowing response to your question is being used as ammunition in another discussion.
[20:30:27] JoJo: is it?
[20:30:42] JoJo: that's not something i'm aware of, not until now anyway
[20:31:15] JoJo: so... next question, is this fair, zal? =/
[20:31:53] Zalleus: Maybe not, but I also think you're being unfair to Sam.
[20:32:58] Zalleus: I'm sorry that you have so much trouble communicating with him. I don't know why, and I don't have a solution, but a country leader should not be blocking an RP leader.
[20:33:25] JoJo: i didn't take it lightly
[20:33:45] JoJo: and i have been told that when blocked parties share a group conversation, they can still talk just fine
[20:33:58] JoJo: though, admittedly, i've not blocked many people on skype before so i don't know how true that is
[20:34:04] JoJo: it's not that i don't want to talk to him
[20:34:14] JoJo: i just want all communication to be in conversations witnessed by others.
[20:35:09] JoJo: going back to the point regarding mich being used as an intermediary
[20:35:34] JoJo: he volunteered to do so - and it isn't the first time this has happened. it's no precedent.
[20:35:41] JoJo: i accepted it... sammieo didn't.
[20:36:02] JoJo: so unfortunately, that one isn't on me. i did want to keep communication routes open.
[20:36:40] Zalleus: That's definitely not what I would call keeping communication routes open.
[20:36:54] Zalleus: If you really wanted to do that, you should've unblocked him.
[20:37:19] Zalleus: Have the unpleasant conversation, say what's on your mind, cuss at each other, and progress the situation
[20:37:21] JoJo: i only blocked him last night.
[20:37:36] JoJo: he said very, very unpleasant things on tuesday night
[20:38:01] JoJo: he wanted to discuss something and i said i would discuss it through mich, as i had already agreed to a number of days ago
[20:38:08] JoJo: sammieo did not accept this and went onto be very unpleasant
[20:38:24] JoJo: i then heard from other people that he had been telling people about the unpleasant things he had said
[20:38:41] JoJo: and decided at that point that i didn't want to communicate with him on a personal level any more.
[20:39:38] Zalleus: I think I have a feeling of what he said to you. He's definitely discussed it with me before.
[20:39:54] JoJo: another one who knows...
[20:40:03] JoJo: there's no end to this.
[20:40:20] Zalleus: I'm trying to be as impartial as I can, I swear, but there has to be some reason he thinks this.
[20:40:47] JoJo: i'm not faultless
[20:40:53] JoJo: i've never said that i'm innocent
[20:41:04] JoJo: but he doesn't accept his fault in this and i cannot control that.
[20:41:07] JoJo: what i can control
[20:41:18] JoJo: is whether i take any more of him
[20:41:44] JoJo: i'm not going to discuss the contents of the conversation that was had on tuesday, but let it be known that it was very one way.
[20:42:14] Zalleus: Did he use the word "abuse"?
[20:42:26] JoJo: yep
[20:42:29] Zalleus: Okay
[20:42:35] JoJo: so yeah
[20:42:39] JoJo: you know about it from him already then
[20:42:42] JoJo: i figured as much.
[20:42:48] JoJo: this is so disappointing.
[20:42:58] JoJo: i am not spreading anything about him.
[20:43:08] JoJo: it is an issue between the two of us.
[20:43:21] JoJo: mich indirectly, since he was acting as mediator
[20:43:37] JoJo: but it's nobody else's business.. and yet he's telling a lot of people about it.
[20:43:40] Zalleus: Well, that's kind of why I came to you.
[20:44:09] Zalleus: I only know his side. I know he's unpopular with you and Craig, but I don't know why and no one will tell me.
[20:44:38] Zalleus: I hear some bullshit about "Clash of personalities", but that doesn't add up.
[20:45:05] JoJo: there's no need to bring craig into this
[20:45:14] Zalleus: Then don't
[20:45:18] Zalleus: But I am asking you
[20:45:23] JoJo: you were the one who brought it up, zal
[20:45:44] Zalleus: I just meant "we don't have to"
[20:51:17] Zalleus: But I am asking you
[20:55:53] JoJo: sorry, what are you asking me?
[20:55:57] JoJo: it's not clear.
[20:56:51] Zalleus: What's your side of the story?
[20:57:08] Zalleus: What did Sam do? Is there something specific that drove a wedge between you guys?
[20:57:22] JoJo: i don't know.
[20:57:29] JoJo: if there's something, i can't pinpoint it.
[20:57:35] JoJo: the best explanation i can give is this.
[20:57:51] JoJo: and it's courtesy of mich, who i was talking this through with on tuesday when i was trying to work out what went wrong.
[20:58:12] JoJo: if we were friends in real life, moving in the same circles, the relationship would never have gotten to this point.
[20:58:40] JoJo: it would have just never happened. i'm not an aggressive person in real life, i can be defensive, sure, but i do not go picking fights
[20:58:46] JoJo: if something's brewing, if i don't like somebody
[20:58:48] JoJo: i avoid
[20:58:52] JoJo: i just keep away
[20:59:17] JoJo: hard to do in an RP setting without leaving your own website, don't you agree?
[20:59:39] Zalleus: I suppose that makes sense
[20:59:53 | Edited 21:00:27] Zalleus: But that doesn't explain what caused the conflict in the first place
[21:00:00] JoJo: the only point i can think of
[21:00:23] JoJo: is him rubbing me up the wrong way with his condescension, whether or not it was intended.
[21:00:31] JoJo: i would be bothered by it
[21:00:34] JoJo: i would bring it up
[21:00:38] JoJo: arguments would ensue
[21:00:42] JoJo: arguments would go in circles.
[21:00:50] JoJo: any point brought up would go in circles
[21:00:54] JoJo: last days on end
[21:01:17] JoJo: i would never be understood, no matter how many times i reinterpreted what i was saying. i'd feel totally stupid that i couldn't get myself understood.
[21:01:37] JoJo: i got fed up of it, so tried to stop discussing things with sammieo unless it was entirely necessary.
[21:01:44] JoJo: it just did not work.
[21:01:58] JoJo: i've tried to make distance between us to give space and time for things to cool down
[21:02:41] JoJo: so i would stop being angry about all the misunderstandings, the time wasted (several days) to going in circles...
[21:03:06] JoJo: it just didn't happen for whatever reason.
[21:03:18] JoJo: whether it was me being unable to keep my mouth shut about an issue within the RP
[21:03:48] JoJo: or whether it was him cornering me with a conversation he wanted to have with me, yet including two other people in on the chat so they could see what i'm like, for protection, whatever the reason behind that was.
[21:04:16] JoJo: and now? i try to keep things open by agreeing to using mich as a go between, he doesn't accept that, comes at me with some pretty offensive stuff, and then spreads it everywhere it appears.
[21:04:26] JoJo: so yeah
[21:04:28] JoJo: i've blocked him
[21:04:31] JoJo: and i don't regret it.
[21:05:09] JoJo: when somebody stops taking no as an answer, that's when it's time to call it quits. maybe i should have done that when he stopped taking no for an answer.
[21:05:45] Zalleus: Well, I have no idea what to do
[21:06:10] JoJo: if i'm honest, zal
[21:06:12] JoJo: it's not your fight
[21:06:18] JoJo: there is no fight, no war
[21:06:21] JoJo: there should be no sides
[21:06:22] JoJo: this?
[21:06:26] JoJo: it's between me and sammieo.
[21:07:09] JoJo: anyway
[21:07:13] JoJo: that seems like a bit of a tangent
[21:07:24] JoJo: did you want to retract your feedback and say something else?
[21:08:02] Zalleus: I don't know
[21:08:34] Zalleus: I didn't enjoy listening to it, you know
[21:08:41] JoJo: to what?
[21:08:44] JoJo: what we've just discussed?
[21:08:49] JoJo: or is this something else?
[21:08:50] Zalleus: About your abuse
[21:08:54] Zalleus: whatever it is
[21:09:08] Zalleus: It broke my heart listening to it.
[21:09:15] JoJo: a bit of advice, for life, zal
[21:09:18] Zalleus: Not because I believe it entirely
[21:09:25] JoJo: there is nothing wrong in telling somebody you don't want to hear it.
[21:09:42] JoJo: people make stabby jokes around me, joke about killing people, talk morbidly about deaths
[21:09:49] JoJo: i just say "i don't want to hear it."
[21:09:51] JoJo: or
[21:09:54] JoJo: i walk away.
[21:10:16] Zalleus: I don't believe that
[21:10:38] Zalleus: I think there's some things that shouldn't be ignored, that you have an obligation to sit down, listen to, and deal with it somehow.
[21:10:48] JoJo: okay, so...
[21:10:52] JoJo: you say "deal with it, somehow"
[21:10:55] JoJo: in this context
[21:11:03] Zalleus: I know
[21:11:03] JoJo: what do you intend to do to "deal with it"?
[21:11:10] Zalleus: I have no fucking idea
[21:11:36] Zalleus: But I think the stalemate is even worse
[21:11:46] JoJo: let's be frank
[21:11:51] JoJo: had nobody said anything about it
[21:11:55] JoJo: you would have been none the wiser.
[21:12:13] Zalleus: Jojo
[21:12:30] JoJo: it's not fair that you've been dragged into something that is nothing to do with you
[21:12:31] Zalleus: If an RP leader can't communicate with one of his country leaders, how do you think he's going to try and resolve it?
[21:12:33] JoJo: it's not fair on you.
[21:12:50] JoJo: i would say by talking to his deputy
[21:12:52] JoJo: but there we go...
[21:13:25] Zalleus: Jojo, he's considering demoting you from Orange Star
[21:13:30] Zalleus: Putting someone else in charge
[21:13:32] JoJo: i am well aware
[21:13:37] JoJo: he talked about it around me
[21:13:49] JoJo: he told mich that he should be in charge of OS
[21:13:56] JoJo: with me right there, in the conversation
[21:14:20] JoJo: and i got abuse for telling sammieo that that was out of line and to at least take such discussion private.
[21:14:32] JoJo: if he wanted to be blatant, he should have said it to my face, so to speak.
[21:14:45] JoJo: please hear me when i say this
[21:15:01] JoJo: i have been at fault in ways, and i have accepted that for some time and have been trying to not be at fault
[21:15:16] JoJo: but sammieo is not blameless. not in the slightest.
[21:15:30] JoJo: he might be playing the victim
[21:15:35] JoJo: and i'm letting him
[21:15:46] JoJo: but don't see him as innocent. please.
[21:16:18] Zalleus: You say Sam isn't blameless, but the only complaint you've told me about is that he's condescending and stubborn.
[21:16:23] Zalleus: He sounds no worse than Neb
[21:16:32] JoJo: who was removed from the RP...
[21:16:41] JoJo: and made unwelcome, by sammieo.
[21:16:49] JoJo: sammieo did something i never had the balls to do.
[21:17:05] JoJo: neb was a troubled person, and trouble in himself
[21:17:09] JoJo: but he was a friend of sorts
[21:17:35] JoJo: i won't forget the time he was talking about suicide and people put it on me to physically drive down the road to check on him
[21:17:40] JoJo: just because i was geographically close
[21:17:45] JoJo: after all the years of shit i took from him.
[21:18:02] JoJo: i still wouldn't have thrown him out, because i couldn't bring myself to do it.
[21:18:17] JoJo: ultimately, neb was damaged by the same thing that damaged me: matt's murder.
[21:18:42] JoJo: that was a strong enough tie for me to not shit on him like that. but sammieo didn't have that link, and people, craig included, are grateful that neb was removed like that.
[21:19:56] Zalleus: ...Is that it?
[21:20:16] Zalleus: I'm not trying to accuse, I'm just asking
[21:20:30] Zalleus: Is that something you're holding against Sam?
[21:20:55] JoJo: nope
[21:21:10] JoJo: saying he has more balls than me is a commendation.
[21:21:42] JoJo: neb probably deserved it on balance.
[21:22:58] Zalleus: I'm sorry for dragging it out like this, but I voted for Sam. He's put so much into the RP to keep it going and try to keep everyone happy.
[21:23:15] JoJo: i respect that
[21:24:04] Zalleus: I see everything he does, and then I see Craig and Drake and Jackal slinging so much at him, and just don't understand
[21:24:47 | Edited 21:25:27] Zalleus: But he's never said that Craig has abused him, that's not something he's said about anyone else
[21:26:02] JoJo: i've also never claimed anybody in the current bunch of roleplayers has abused me...
[21:26:06] JoJo: but when reading the definitions
[21:26:09] JoJo: i certainly could.
[21:26:13] JoJo: but i'll leave it at that.
[21:26:25] JoJo: on the scale of what's been and gone in life so far
[21:26:29] JoJo: it ain't worth it.
[21:26:36] JoJo: so i'll keep it to myself.
[21:26:44] JoJo: it's better that way, after all.
[21:27:04] Zalleus: I'm sick of hearing how much drama you guys are used to. There's no reason
[21:27:25] Zalleus: We're all mostly adults, we can talk to each other. We can figure out some kind of compromise
[21:27:33] JoJo: sorry?
[21:27:39] JoJo: i didn't use such a phrase
[21:27:51] JoJo: zal, don't put words into my mouth.
[21:28:04] Zalleus: Not from you, from Craig and Sam and others
[21:28:15] JoJo: then...
[21:28:28] JoJo: you guys please don't count me in it.
[21:29:53] Zalleus: I think you know what I mean Jojo
[21:29:58] JoJo: zal...
[21:30:04] JoJo: this is where fights can come up
[21:30:17] JoJo: through people assuming others know what they mean when they've been unintentionally vague
[21:30:20] JoJo: i'm guilty of it
[21:30:29] JoJo: i try not to do it, but it still happens all the time
[21:30:54] JoJo: the use of "you guys" insinuates me - based on the premise that you're talking to me - and others.
[21:31:11] JoJo: if you mean people other than me, it's probably best to say that instead, for clarity
[21:31:23] Zalleus: There's a certain amount of tension between players that we seem to be acclimated to. Fights break out over such trivial things. That's what I'm talking about.
[21:31:48] JoJo: i don't think it's deliberate, though i can't speak for others.
[21:31:48] Zalleus: It's a prevailing attitude amongst the RP. It happened often with Neb, and it still happens
[21:31:58] Zalleus: No, it's not deliberate, that's how bad it is
[21:32:49] Zalleus: I can't even keep track of what I'm talking about anymore
[21:33:31] JoJo: then it might be best to stop where you are
[21:33:45] JoJo: are you still wanting to revise the feedback you gave on my OS leadership?
[21:35:47 | Edited 21:36:49] Zalleus: I love you jojo, but I hate whatever is going on between you and Sam, and it's not a closed system. I think it's affecting the rest of the RP, and the longer it goes unchecked, the worse it's going to get, and at this point, I think I would prefer any solution as long as it settles it.
[21:37:08] JoJo: i have never intended it to affect the whole RP, and have had nothing to do with the spread of this this time. drake started his thread based off hearing from two other people - i was totally unaware.
[21:37:59] Zalleus: As far as OS goes, you're fine, but I think that needed to be said too.